The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[stingers]

Did you just call Pictochat's hazards "incredibly predictable"? You do realize they're random right? Not to mention the fact that it has random bombs appear in the middle of the stage that blow up on contact, walls randomly appear in the middle of the stage which stop the fighting and promote camping, and

Again, I've never been to a tournament or seen a video of a tournament with two respectable players fighting each other on stages such as Green Hill Zone, Pirate Ship, or Distant Planet, which are all legal stages under the SBR ruleset. There's a reason why the list isn't set in stone and the topic actually encourages you to make your own changes as you see fit.

 

[Yeroc]

Dude, random =/= bannable in and of itself. You should know that, it has to do with how much influence the event has. I think every single drawing on the stage is able to be reacted to an thus avoided, or used to one's benefit. That's why it's CP. Most people just don't like playing that way so they don't go there. It's not broken though.

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser King, I'm sorry but no. Chains of any kind need to and are being removed.

Ease is not a factor, because at the professional level it will occur regardless.

Just look at Sliq in vBrawl.

It's not helping much if you look at the character discussion for Vbrawl in the bowser boards you'd see most of his matchups are 60-40. I'd hate for those to go to 65-35 because he can't make good use of his defensive OR offensive game. He's stuck in the middle and can't go into any side.

The chaingrab does close to 15 damage at Max. It's pretty useless seeing how klaw, ftilt and other moves do equal or more damage.

Bowser can't set up and his once amazing shield game is left with being mediocre or decent.

Also, I'd watch some of sliqs video's if I were you. You'd realise that his grab release is good but in a game like brawl+ it's pretty bad BUT it's still useful for keeping bowser defensive and not putting him an area where he was neither meant to go and should go (offensive when not needed).

Fact of the matter is, if it can be done, it will be done. And it will be done a lot.

No.

Seriously, your overestimating his GR. Your making it sound like it's amazing like D3's. It will rarely be done in a game like brawl+ ESPECIALLY when it's a character like bowser.

23 frame grab break gives Bowser tons of options after a grab release, which I've detailed. I cannot see how a chain grab is a justifiable request. Abusing an exploit is NOT a way to balance a character.

Not really. that gives bowser close to 7 frames to do something. IIRC, bowser can get control out of release around frame 20. Most characters, with the exclusion of DK, Ness and Lucas get out control near frame 30 on ground release. That gives him 10 frames to do a move depending on the characters release. Then there's air release where the suffer 50 frames and bowser keeps his 20.

Proof:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213892

Now, if you raise it to 23 for ground release bowser can do close to nothing (look at the framerate). Most of the things he can do and the "mindgames" can, as you said, at a high level of play, be easily avoided.

Thus, bowser is left with crappy throws, a crappy grab and a terrible grab release.

The DownB and NeutralB are options pending prediction. In a lot of cases, your opponent is likely to dodge right after the grab break in order to avoid getting regrabbed. You can punish that reaction by starting the NeutralB after your grab break. The frames will coincide perfectly to have you punish that dodge. DownB also needs prediction. Brawl+ is all about rewards for proper prediction.
SideB, Jab, UpB, all those will work most of the time.
Tilts are a way to punish their slow reaction if you have faster ones. Same applies for a regrab.

Your mixing your words again. You stated that at a high level of play bowsers grab release is good in Vbrawl yet your saying that in a lot of cases people will dodge out of release. Not going to help because at a high level of play the bowser player is left guessing

"what is he going to do?"

He could dodge and then i could punish with the little I have or he could roll and I could, depending on the character punish with a grab. Not a good position to be in because your basically guessing at random what he'll do and if you delay YOUR the one who's going to get punished.

I mean, yes your options are more limited than vBrawl, but they still exist. Bowser can still do things out of a grab break. He still has a grab release game that can be used. I know it's not as ideal to you Bowser mains since it's a nerf from vBrawl, but you have to understand that exploiting broken grab mechanics does not promote a smart way to fix things.

Again, bowsers grab isn't a D3 or IC grab. Nerfing an already bad character is a very bad move. Not to mention that he can do close to nothing and basically has to guess what to do. Air release is destroyed and ground release is left being terrible. Sonic and jiggs would have a better release because there moves are faster then bowsers and graunteed to hit.

Broken? Seriously, it's good, mabye even very good but nowhere near broken especially since your making your claims off of Vbrawl and not brawl+ where it would get nerfed in the first place. Bowser is basically sitting there waiting for people to come and **** him.

As you can tell by the sheer amount of discussion and the unique things that's being applied solely to Bowser, we are trying hard to fix Bowser. We're not ignoring him and we won't stop until he's totally fixed. But we're not going to do that by turning a blind eye to obviously broken mechanics.

I see that but by taking out his nessecitties and replacing them with something that's not as amazing (though still good) you'd realize bowser is getting nerfed enough with is size and weight that by adding another nerf your basically throwing him out the window.

-Bowser King

 

[stingers]

I just tried the new 3.1 (3.2 I guess, it's just the text on the front page, I didn't download anything) and it freezes basically right away if you pick Bowser.

I'll try the old 3.1 and if that doesn't work then I'm sticking with good old Beta 2.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Did you just call Pictochat's hazards "incredibly predictable"? You do realize they're random right? Not to mention the fact that it has random bombs appear in the middle of the stage that blow up on contact, walls randomly appear in the middle of the stage which stop the fighting and promote camping, and

Again, I've never been to a tournament or seen a video of a tournament with two respectable players fighting each other on stages such as Green Hill Zone, Pirate Ship, or Distant Planet, which are all legal stages under the SBR ruleset. There's a reason why the list isn't set in stone and the topic actually encourages you to make your own changes as you see fit.

Yes, I did. You can see them being drawn before they actually come into play, and the only damaging hazards are easily predicted and avoided, sans maybe the spikes on the side.
Provided that you didn't just get grabbed, and are about to have a world of hurt put on you by being thrown into a hazard, of course.

That's because no one likes them in vBrawl
GHZ is about as campy as it gets, Pirate ship has hazards with huge hitboxes that kill at ridiculously low percentages, and Distant Planet...it's boring with an Instant Kill hazard.
Pictochat has none of these. No more than any other stage, anyway.
Could be campy, but it's not stupidly hard to counter.
Hazards won't kill you at low percentages, and aren't that fast to begin with.
PictoChat is not boring with no instant kill hazard.

I really don't see the problem with Pictochat. It's a decent stage with some hazards that grant characters with a good grab game a slight advantage.

Like a counterpick. >_>

 

[MK26]

Shouldnt it be called "Brawlplussery" for phonetic correctness?

 

[stingers]

ugh

3.1 worked fine for bowser in one match but if you change from shiek to zelda it freezes

-_-

 

[shanus]

I just tried the new 3.1 (3.2 I guess, it's just the text on the front page, I didn't download anything) and it freezes basically right away if you pick Bowser.

I'll try the old 3.1 and if that doesn't work then I'm sticking with good old Beta 2.

Almas prolly tried to do a speedy fix this morning and broke him. What a slacker. Just try and use either Beta3 original or 3.1.


http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/smashcodes/

Please don't download from this link a lot, but if you go to 2-12-2009 it has Beta3 original in it which while not the most up to date with fixes, has none of the bugs described above. Sorry for the inconvenience!

 

[The Cape]

Shanus, going to be already to do an official 3.2 release later this weekend?

Or does the girlfriend have too much control? *cracks whip*

 

[trojanpooh]

I may have misunderstood what someone was talking about, but I thought they were asking why PS2 is frozen now. As I'm sure many of you know, with a higher run speed, the ice makes you slide like nuts. It's bad enough with the standard codes most people use now, but its even worse with MuBa's settings. Its actually pretty funny, if you turn around you don't stop sliding until you jump or reach the ledge.

Did we ever track down the reason for the freezing?

 

[Alopex]

Bowser King, it's an exploit. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter how you look at it, allowing an exploit to remain instead of fixing OTHER things about the character, is lazy developing.

You, as a Bowser main, are biased in thinking that "it's fine because it's Bowser and Bowser isn't that good". You're not seeing how the notion you are fostering is a bad philosophy to adopt when developing a game.

We've removed Yoshi's chain release too. Because it is also an exploit, despite Yoshi also being subpar still.

You're only suggesting we keep that exploit because you seem to think we are done. That opinion is solidified in your response and how you're convinced that Bowser is nerfed to oblivion and will be thrown out the window without his grab release chain. Your responses did not even consider that fact that we're hardly done with Bowser.

And if a character needs to abuse an exploit in order to be a viable character (and that was pretty much what your last line said) then it's just piss poor character development. We're not going to take that avenue.

You seem to want Bowser to be viable now and immediately. We don't have all the necessary codes yet, we don't have all the details figured out yet. But we're working under the big picture, and the big picture has every character being viable WITHOUT exploits, and so that's the vision we are working towards. In order to achieve that, we need to start by removing all the exploits and then seeing what the character needs now that that exploit is gone. Leaving even one exploit intact skews data. And like I said, we're not lazy enough to overlook that.

 

[shanus]

Shanus, going to be already to do an official 3.2 release later this weekend?

Or does the girlfriend have too much control? *cracks whip*

Well, I'm not at my apartment, I'm at her house for the weekend. So, its in your hands. Almas' most recent set crashes, let me know how those new character values work. Feel free to optimize, etcetc and do a release without me. Hassle our new fancy red whipping boy (read: moderator) to make the file work too

Just take the character values from the 3.1 in my smashcodes link and update it with the changes. Still might crash once in a while, but better than nothing

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Trojanpooh
^^Because it's a terrible competitive stage that nearly every tournament bans unfrozen, yet the best neutral ever when frozen.

 

[trojanpooh]

@Trojanpooh
^^Because it's a terrible competitive stage that nearly every tournament bans unfrozen, yet the best neutral ever when frozen.

I agree with you completely, I thought someone was trying to argue that it should be thawed and was posting a counter point. That wasn't the case so it was a bit of a wasted post, but I was trying to say that even if it was fine in vBrawl (which it wasn't), in Brawl+ the speed makes ice broken. I'm done talking on this subject because I'm just confusing myself and anyone who reads what I write on it.

I was thinking of just buffing her Downgravity to something like 1.2, so empty jumps will be a bit quicker. I was also thinking of slight upgrav addition of 1.025. Nothing that noticable, just slight modifications. I am away for the weekend though, so I'm relying on others to test it for me lol

Part of Samus's personality is that she is floaty. She is floaty in most of her games as well as Smash64, Melee, and vBrawl. This trait has to stay with her. If she is in need of a buff it can't be through her jump speed. We should instead look to giving her something else, maybe speed up her spike a tad or make her bombs detonate faster. How it's done in the end doesn't matter, but Samus is a floaty character and she should stay that way. It's going to be tough, but we need to help bad characters without taking away their unique traits.

 

[The Cape]

I agree with Trojan Pooh that she should stay floaty.

As for Sheik, why are we changing her? She plays AMAZINGLY and has awesome combos.

As for ZSS, we lowered her SH and **** and now I personally HATE playing her. I doubt I will every play her again. It ruined her game as all her aerials land super laggy now.

 

[Problem2]

Maybe we could speed up the speed of Samus's and Link's grab if they are need of more buffs. I've had players that avoid grab on reaction which is very annoying. I understand that they should be able to dodge it if they anticipate it (so there should be start up lag) but it shouldn't be like they are standing there and after seeing you start your grab, they roll away.

That's just my opinion. I'm not requesting for a big speed up, just a small one.

 

[grim mouser]

So we should NOT use the newest set (the one in the OP)?

 

[cAm8ooo]

@ alopex- You mention that all chaingrabs should be gone no matter the difficulty. Does this include the ice climbers. Where chaingrabs r the corner stone of their gameplay?

 

[osh77]

So we should NOT use the newest set (the one in the OP)?

No, I just tried it and got a freeze with bowser's up b.

 

[thesage]

Frozen Pictochat should definitely be on neutral. Don't bother to try to use it as a cp. It's already banned on East Coast and probably West Coast too. Midwest hasn't banned it yet though. I have no clue wtf south is doing.

 

[SGX]

Samus is incredibly floaty, and right now she's probably the worst character in the game. Thus far, we've been unable to speed up her missiles, bombs, etc. Giza was tinkering with this yesterday and it seems the missiles have a fixed velocity.

If Samus needs some weight to make her more viable, then by all means do it. We're trying to make every character competitively viable.

Balance > Uniqueness.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I just got the "doing moves with the control stick" glitch again.

Ike's neutral b this time. On Final Destination.

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser King, it's an exploit. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter how you look at it, allowing an exploit to remain instead of fixing OTHER things about the character, is lazy developing.

No that's called downgrading. Just look at Vbrawl. It sucks because the developers went out of there way to fix every little thing. Including techs that weren't all that bad. They changed a lot of the gameplay so new techs could not be discovered. That's basically what's happening. I wouldn't be surpirsed if "X" char got some new tech that was good (in brawl+) and it was removed for the sole fact that it was an exploit. A lot of the stuff added into brawl+ were melee exploits. Why aren't they removed?

You, as a Bowser main, are biased in thinking that "it's fine because it's Bowser and Bowser isn't that good". You're not seeing how the notion you are fostering is a bad philosophy to adopt when developing a game.

Your not developing a game. Yes brawl+ is REALLY different from Vbrawl but there's somethings you can't change like bowsers combo ability or ability to get out of combo's. To some extent you can but it won't be eliminated. Also, IT'S NOT THAT GOOD. Why do you continuesly ignore half the arguments I put up? In brawl+ bowser is going to have a lot of trouble executing his chaingrab and if we keep on taking out things that make certain belowpar chars decent to good then isn't that fighting half the battle of making every char balanced.

No matter what we can try, bowser will always have his limitation. He cant combo for anything and he gets comboed to a huge amount. Will we be able to change those limitations without bowser feeling like a completely new character? No. We need to keep what bowser has and allow him to fit into the brawl+ scene.

Techs aren't a bad thing. As long as there not broken or even very good then I see no problem with them. His chaingrab, as I've said in my past 2 posts, will not be that useful almost like half of bowsers once good moves, it will get nerfed.

Let me show you a chart.

^b-nerfed
>b-nerfed
Ability to stay on ground- Nered like no tommorow
Abilty to combo-was never there

Now if we remove an already nerfed chaingrab we have one very bad bowser.

We've removed Yoshi's chain release too. Because it is also an exploit, despite Yoshi also being subpar still.

Yoshi is very similar to bowser for certain things. Nerfing yoshi by taking his chaingrab that does what 8 dmg and a DI able fair? I see no harm in leaving it. Also yoshi doesn't face the whole combo problem as bad as bowser.

He can combo to an extent AND he can get out of certain combos. His moves don't feel nerfed as well. Still, he needs work on and I think the chaingrab should stay. Watch yoshi vis and you'd realize his chaingrab isn't very good on characters other then MK and people who don't know how to DI.

You're only suggesting we keep that exploit because you seem to think we are done. That opinion is solidified in your response and how you're convinced that Bowser is nerfed to oblivion and will be thrown out the window without his grab release chain. Your responses did not even consider that fact that we're hardly done with Bowser.

I know were not done with him. You obviously didn't read my whole response. Still, like I said, there's so much that you can do to him. Unless he grows 5 jumps and moves with little lag, bowser will be comboed and wont be able to combo back.

Grab release is a staple for bowser to stay defensive and with so mant of his moves and other things nerfed removing something like his CG is a bad move. You can deny it as much as you want but it's the truth.

And if a character needs to abuse an exploit in order to be a viable character (and that was pretty much what your last line said) then it's just piss poor character development. We're not going to take that avenue.

I never said CG was what he needed to survive (In Vbrawl) but in brawl+, with so many of his moves being nowhere near as useful and his once good techs (klaw hopping chaingrabing) are getting removed or are nowhere near useful it makes a difference.


It's like taking food away from someone who has nothing. Why do it when it's one of the few things that keeps him alive?

You seem to want Bowser to be viable now and immediately. We don't have all the necessary codes yet, we don't have all the details figured out yet. But we're working under the big picture, and the big picture has every character being viable WITHOUT exploits, and so that's the vision we are working towards. In order to achieve that, we need to start by removing all the exploits and then seeing what the character needs now that that exploit is gone. Leaving even one exploit intact skews data. And like I said, we're not lazy enough to overlook that.

I find Brawl+ bowser to be a decent character and don't have many complaints about him. His nerfed moves are fine with me as long as I have different options when playing defensive. By removing his CG YOU ARE REMOVING HALF HIS DEFENSIVE PLAYSTYLE. His shield is all he has left. Throws are crap and so is his grab. Why use it then? Your basically making one part of his playstyle useless.

Also, name one character that, with bowsers chaingrab, gets an bad matchup against him. Try to find one character that, through the chaingrab, gets wrecked by bowser.

-Bowser King

 

[trojanpooh]

Samus is incredibly floaty, and right now she's probably the worst character in the game. Thus far, we've been unable to speed up her missiles, bombs, etc. Giza was tinkering with this yesterday and it seems the missiles have a fixed velocity.

If Samus needs some weight to make her more viable, then by all means do it. We're trying to make every character competitively viable.

Balance > Uniqueness.

As long as she feels floatier than the average weight character, then I have no problem with her becoming heavier. That said, I disagree with the notion that the game must be 100% balanced even if sucking the life out of characters is the way to do it. Diversity of characters is what makes it worth having a large roster. If everyone plays the same, we may as well just make a one character CSS and call it a day.

 

[thesage]

We should focus more on Ic's cg then bowser's lol.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

We should focus more on Ic's cg then bowser's lol.

yes plz leave the boozer alone

 

[goodoldganon]

As long as she feels floatier than the average weight character, then I have no problem with her becoming heavier. That said, I disagree with the notion that the game must be 100% balanced even if sucking the life out of characters is the way to do it. Diversity of characters is what makes it worth having a large roster. If everyone plays the same, we may as well just make a one character CSS and call it a day.

If C. Falcon is that one character then I'm ok with that.

 

[cAm8ooo]

We should focus more on Ic's cg then bowser's lol.

I dont think we should take away thier chaingrab. Its how they've played forever. Taking it away would really take away their uniqueness and some of their technical skill. Not to mention you would be pushing away future brawl+ players who's character would play much differently.

 

[The Cape]

Samus should have a faster FF.

The missiles themselves cannot be faster, but can the animation to release them be sped up?

What about for ICers, we take away Nana's ability to grab? They still have SICK CGs, but they dont have throw to throw.

 

[Bowser King]

I dont think we should take away thier chaingrab. Its how they've played forever. Taking it away would really take away their uniqueness and some of their technical skill. Not to mention you would be pushing away future brawl+ players who's character would play much differently.

I agree but I think it should be toned down to an extent.
Chars like bowser (if you listened to the smash podcast) can do close to nothing.

I think by limiting it around 50-70% (if that's possible) would give certain chars a fighting chance.

I'm not sure if that's possible though so I'm not sure =/

If there's another way to limit them I think that would work to.

-Bowser King

 

[cAm8ooo]

Samus' missile game played great in Muba's codeset. Probably due to up grav. She would fire them off like nuthing

 

[SketchHurricane]

As long as she feels floatier than the average weight character, then I have no problem with her becoming heavier. That said, I disagree with the notion that the game must be 100% balanced even if sucking the life out of characters is the way to do it. Diversity of characters is what makes it worth having a large roster. If everyone plays the same, we may as well just make a one character CSS and call it a day.

This is why we should buff strengths or what should be strengths, rather than compensating for weaknesses. If we focus on weaknesses, we end up with a vanilla roster. If we buff strengths, we end up with very unique characters and a lot of counter picks. While vB definitely excelled in diversity and CP strats, it failed in balance where many characters had no CP value whatsoever because their strengths didn't make up for their weaknesses. There's no way to make a completely balanced game while maintaining diversity, plain and simple, but you can definitely make a "sensible" game with proper attention to detail.

Anyway, it's the main reason I argued for Bowser to retain some grab release madness, because that preserves a strength he already had. If we homogenize grab releases, and simply make up for Bowser's weaknesses instead (like speed) we are moving more towards that vanilla roster. There's nothing wrong with doing that to a degree, but it should always take a back seat to diversity, IMO.

Samus' missile game played great in Muba's codeset. Probably due to up grav. She would fire them off like nuthing

If we want to preserve her float while hastening her missiles, SH would be the way to go. Faster exploding downB bombs would also be awesome, but we have to think about what that will do to the little bomb bounce trick in the air. I think it's pretty obvious that Brawl Samus doesn't need that trick to get back, but it would still be a shame to accidently remove it.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I believe someone told me her short hop was as short as it could be. I may be wrong about that tho.

 

[SketchHurricane]

From the looks of the beta codeset, it's at .8 with no gravity mods. Seems like we could try .7, no?

 

[Revven]

I did not like Wolf in Beta 3.1 at all. He's WAY too floaty for my tastes... in fact, he feels exactly the same as his vBrawl self which IMO, isn't good for him. I would enjoy a shorter short hop height, it does him better, I could care less about his AC Fair. But, if nobody wants a shorter SH height then how about making him slightly more heavier? He just doesn't feel right with me, at all. I couldn't get any Dair setups with this Wolf, period.

But, I'll try him some more tomorrow with SFG and see what happens, this opinion is just of playing him online.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Imo, less landing lag > Autocancels. That would help Wolf seeing as hes pretty heavy with the 0-death combos that can be done on him. Speaking of which, did I mention Ivysuar is amazing? <3

 

[lamelikemike]

i'm sorry, but it feels like almost everyone has the wrong attitude about this whole thing. why take out chain grabs, they make characters unique. they make the ICs go from ok to very good at best. Why in the hell would we want to be nerfing characters like Bowser and Yoshi. It seems like we should be trying to balance the game by bring more characters to a higher tier. Not by taking out unintended attack options.

even if an IC manages to **** with CGs. It is because they are better than the person they are playing, not because the CGs are broken, people need to learn to fight this type of thing instead of just saying it should be stripped from the character. because thats just ridiculous.


** also for hackers reference, my game just froze playing shiek. i switched to zelda no problem, but when i switched back it froze, with a beautifully annoying ring playing endlessly. i was using beta3.1

 

[storm92]

Just my two cents on two of my characters that I main.
Kirby and Sheik's SH heights should be reduced, possibly to .9 or .85.
Right now, there's absolutely no reason to keep Sheik's SH height at 1 because it isn't keeping any specific combo, other than maybe her Dthrow-->Dair, but that isn't important enough to keep from lowering her high SH. Her game can be much improved by this.
Kirby as well, although doesn't have a high SH, could definitely benefit from a faster SH'd aerial game to ground, because SH Bairs/Fairs are about all he has for good approaches, and the time spent FFing the Bair could be lowered, therefore bettering Kirby in one area which he really lacks in.

 

[Revven]

Imo, less landing lag > Autocancels. That would help Wolf seeing as hes pretty heavy with the 0-death combos that can be done on him. Speaking of which, did I mention Ivysuar is amazing? <3

Yeah, I think Wolf just needs a shorter SH height overall. His gravity might need some changing but, not a TON, IMO his SH should be short enough so Dair and Fair are more useful than they are now.

 

[The Cape]

SMK, we have a new better Wolf for 3.2.

As for the SHs, using the code we have. We cannot take it lower than .8