The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Alopex]

Falcon is not hard to kill horizontally. Period there, yes, because he's a fast falling guy with a limited recovery.

But he lasts too long off the top. Like someone else mentioned before, it's an increase of about 40% of damage. As soon as I can, I'll do some more testing on it. I haven't had the chance to test Beta 3 or 3.1 yet, but saw that those values hadn't changed from Beta 2.

If I'm Snake, I'm not sending Falcon horizontally that often. All I have for that is Ftilt. Meanwhile, my Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, gronded Fair, Granades, C4, Dsmash, and Usmash all send him upwards. All of those now take way longer to kill Falcon.

In fact, not just Falcon but Fox and Falco too. All characters that get a substantial increase in Dgrav AND UpGrav, essentially. Not to mention faster FF's also reduce vertical kill power.

I mean, it's fine to nerf vertical kills. They were almost always too easy in vBrawl (Screeeeeeew you, Jungle Japes!). But faster FF's and Dgrav increases already do that.

Adding UpGrav to that mix just screams out for us to increase move-specific knockback as soon as we can (when that code is available). Too many vertical KO moves are getting gimped and need some power restored via a knockback increase.

 

[The Cape]

Bowser is easier to kill off the top ok.

But good luck ever getting him to a percent where you can.

Edit: Wait, you want to BUFF Snake's killing power? Are you loco?

Seriously, knock Falcon off, edgeguard. He dies REALLY easy.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

ignoreignoreignore

 

[peachfvl]

i say that the full gravity part of the code should be dropped or at least toned down for chars. like falcon,fox,falco because they are gaining a lot of vertical survivability.

in the current setting the have 1.2 for down gravity and 1.1 for full gravity...with the multiplying effect that makes an overall downgrav of 1.32.

i say decrease full gravity to 1.075 and increase down only to 1.25 so the total down gravity is 1.34375

but if you decrease full gravity you have to increase the FF too ,so with the current values the multyplying effect is 1.265 for FF ,but with 1.075 full gravity and 1.175 FF the overall FF will be 1.263125

 

[Shadic]

I don't get the Link change back to 35%.

I mean, compare him to his Smash64 self. Brawl Link is slower, weaker, and with a worse projectile game, the only advantage being his recovery... Which still sucks.

Unless Link is going to get some sort of other buffs, I don't see why his lag reduction is going back up. His balance was just about right with 35%, I think. He still lacked killing power.

 

[Alopex]

@Cape

You're going to edgeguard with Snake? With what, the remote missile? All he has in that front is the USmash.

And I didn't mean Snake's killing power specifically, though his attacks did all get nerfed in the VKO respects. I was thinking attacks like Mario's and Luigi's UpSmash, Jiggly's Rest, Olimar's non-purple UpSmashes, Yoshi's Uair, Sonic's Uair... moves like that. Not horribly powerful moves that got unavoidably nerfed when they didn't need to be.

I just used Snake as an example of a character with more VKO than HKO potential. I could've also used Luigi if you prefer...

EDIT: That's great that Bowser's Thick Skin is really helping him that much. As I mentioned, I haven't had the chance to test Beta 3 or 3.1 yet.
Regardless, it's not doing anything for Charizard though, who's in the same predicament of having <1 UpGrav.

 

[The Cape]

Working a 40 hour week, getting back in shape for six months of army training, trying to pick girls up at the bar, and balancing a broken game.

Who needs sleep :-p


Edit:
Charizard was mostly to help his recovery, when we can boost his weight seperately we will be sure to increase it.

Also (and I hate doing this). In Melee my Mario style changed depending on the char I was playing.
Falcon, Fox, and Falco was juggle off the stage (easy) and edgeguard.
Samus was combo into U smash and kill her off the top at about 120%

Thing is, sure they are weaker kill moves, but these chars have so many other options. Fact of the matter is that every character you listed has the ability to knock people off and edgeguard them very well and the spacies are SUPER easy to gimp.

We can always alter their weight and make them lighter, but the gravity on the three really helps them out.

 

[peachfvl]

i say that the full gravity part of the code should be dropped or at least toned down for chars. like falcon,fox,falco because they are gaining a lot of vertical survivability.

in the current setting the have 1.2 for down gravity and 1.1 for full gravity...with the multiplying effect that makes an overall downgrav of 1.32.

i say decrease full gravity to 1.075 and increase down only to 1.25 so the total down gravity is 1.34375

but if you decrease full gravity you have to increase the FF too ,so with the current values the multyplying effect is 1.265 for FF ,but with 1.075 full gravity and 1.175 FF the overall FF will be 1.263125

seems like everyone just ignored my post so i will post it again.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

peachfvl - gravity does not stack

 

[The Cape]

As I said (somewhere). We can at least alter Fox and Falco's weight later to make them a bit lighter, therefore making them easier to kill off the sides (as if they werent easy enough) to help counteract the killing off the top.

Edit:
Have you tried Sheik against the FFers?

SOOOOOO unfair. Sheik just pwns them off the stage.

 

[peachfvl]

i thought so, it was explained before that they had a multiplying effect if so why should they have full gravity instead of just up gravity?

if i´m correct falcon, fox and falco will still have a buff in vertical survivability but less while still having the almost the same values

 

[Alopex]

Alright. So what you're saying is that a code to modify the character's weight is in order. I can get behind that.
I don't know if that'll solve things or create more problems, though, because making, say, Fox lighter will definitely reduce his VKO survival, but it'll also reduce his HKO survival, and latter isn't exactly needed...


A different question:

Why are you making Falcon and the spacies fall that much faster, but are hardly changing Squirtle and Sheik? They all fell about equally fast in vBrawl (Squirtle faster than Falcon), so why is that all getting juggled around and leaving Squirtle and Sheik floatier than those others?


EDIT: What's wrong with increasing the vertical knockback of moves that need it?

Everyone is falling faster now so those moves are nerfed regardless. Increasing their knockback would just restore them to the their near-proper killing ratios that were set in vBrawl. It's not like increasing the KB of Mario's UpSmash will make him kill people earlier than he did in vBrawl... he already kills them all LATER with it in Brawl+...

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Why are you making Falcon and the spacies fall that much faster, but are hardly changing Squirtle and Sheik? They all fell about equally fast in vBrawl (Squirtle faster than Falcon), so why is that all getting juggled around and leaving Squirtle and Sheik floatier than those others?

It's because they're human. They'll get to it.

 

[cAm8ooo]

No ill tell yah y. Squirtle is a turtle. Logically he shouldnt be fast. Turtles also float (on water) and therefore it makes perfect sense not to make him fall faster.

Spoiler

Jiang is right

On a side note. Anyone notice that our forum gets waay more people in it then the tactical forum.

 

[peachfvl]

mmmm i was just proposing a possible change in the values so that they don´t get a 40% buff for vertical surviving and making the buff a little less while still having almost the same overall FF and downgravity.

also im just proposing since i cant test it now

 

[Alopex]

Hey, if I knew that they were going about character balances one character at a time, I wouldn't have said anything.

Fact is that it seemed to me like they were tackling everyone all the time, so my apologies.


That's a thought though. Cape, Shanus, why don't you guys go about doing things character per character and releasing Betas on a character basis? Pool your resources into making one character better, one character at a time?


EDIT: Zomg. Frame Mod code lets me alter swimming. Poll time: who wants Squirtle to never drown? Also, Sonic can't swim, canonically speaking so...

 

[Problem2]

Link having a 35% lag d-air / u-air is kind of cool thanks, but I had in mind that Link received buffs in other places. Like his grab. You whiff that thing, your vulnerable for ever. Could we reduce the cool down lag to 70% or so?

Also, d-air, f-smash, and up-b need to be stronger. If I can get a chance to get on, I'll post some specific values that I think wil work.

(Also, I didn't realize how many players missed 64 style Link. =( Now I feel bad for making that suggestion. 35% is still not that bad, just a bit more punishable)

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the no-ASL code doesn't work right. wolf is auto sweetspotting.

 

[Revven]

the no-ASL code doesn't work right. wolf is auto sweetspotting.

It's only with Side B, Up B he doesn't sweetspot. Side Bs always sweetspot still, and it's been like that since the code was made.

 

[Nakamaru]

A different question:

Why are you making Falcon and the spacies fall that much faster, but are hardly changing Squirtle and Sheik? They all fell about equally fast in vBrawl (Squirtle faster than Falcon), so why is that all getting juggled around and leaving Squirtle and Sheik floatier than those others?

why does that matter in brawl+? It is impossible to balance characters without changing the character. What you are saying here is that we should keep everyone the same but still make the different? How exactly do you propose we do that and have any hope of a semi-balanced game?

EDIT: What's wrong with increasing the vertical knockback of moves that need it?

Everyone is falling faster now so those moves are nerfed regardless. Increasing their knockback would just restore them to the their near-proper killing ratios that were set in vBrawl. It's not like increasing the KB of Mario's UpSmash will make him kill people earlier than he did in vBrawl... he already kills them all LATER with it in Brawl+...

Just because you can't kill a character off the top with (insert move here) does not mean that it needs increased knockback. DI, Placement, character, and Stage are all things that need to be considered when trying to kill someone off the top. Also it is not always the optimal strategy. I know when i play fox im not aiming for the sides, i'm aiming for an upsmash to send them off the top. If i tried that when i played sheik i'd never win. I dont even aim much to kill off the sides with her. I just try to get them off the stage for an edgeguard situation which sheik excels at. When i play kirby i actually try and knock the opponent off the sides because thats what he's good at.

If i play against a character that somehow counters in some way. Guess what you've just run into. A counter matchup which is going to happen in a game with this many characters. Just because samus looses horribly to marth doesnt mean she needs a buff until she can beat him. It just means that marth beats the crap outta samus.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

It's only with Side B, Up B he doesn't sweetspot. Side Bs always sweetspot still, and it's been like that since the code was made.

i just tested it now, DK, fox, falco, wolf, pikachu, samus and ganon are all auto sweetspoting w/their upBs.

 

[trojanpooh]

I still think that Mario and Luigi could use increased range for their fire balls. Whats hitstun set at, it seems too high.

 

[Almas]

Many characters will sweetspot their Up+Bs if they begin them while directly adjacent to a ledge.

Also, you will automatically sweetspot if you hit someone during your Up+B attack.

 

[BEES]

I'm not sold on upgrav either. I still think we should focus on downgrav, fastfalling, and launch speed. The upgrav seems pointless and it intrudes on the playstyles of the characters that have the most of it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm not sold on upgrav either. I still think we should focus on downgrav, fastfalling, and launch speed. The upgrav seems pointless and it intrudes on the playstyles of the characters that have the most of it.

Except for the part where people actually like the changes and think that it enhances some character's play styles (see Fox).

Up grav is perfectly fine as long as it is applied on a case by case basis.

 

[Shell]

Yah the NASL definitely isn't working right

 

[GPDP]

Without modifications to UpGrav, jumps on the way up will be slow and floaty. You can mess with the launch speed, DownGrav, and fast fall to your heart's content, but the end result will be a jump that is executed fast, then feels like molasses, followed by a fast falling speed. I don't like that kind of inconsistency. Adding upward gravity with an appropriate launch power variable speeds up jumps on the way up, and puts them on par with falling speed.

 

[trojanpooh]

Without modifications to UpGrav, jumps on the way up will be slow and floaty. You can mess with the launch speed, DownGrav, and fast fall to your heart's content, but the end result will be a jump that is executed fast, then feels like molasses, followed by a fast falling speed. I don't like that kind of inconsistency. Adding upward gravity with an appropriate launch power variable speeds up jumps on the way up, and puts them on par with falling speed.

Yeah, I used to use 1.05% up gravity to make if feel less floaty but it still had a bit of a float to it. Now that we have launch power mod, up grav and down grav can be much closer. Also, is there a reason why we don't want a game that is as fast paced as Melee?

 

[goodoldganon]

I wasn't getting an ASL goof ups last night but I haven't updated today.

 

[GPDP]

Yeah, I used to use 1.05% up gravity to make if feel less floaty but it still had a bit of a float to it. Now that we have launch power mod, up grav and down grav can be much closer. Also, is there a reason why we don't want a game that is as fast paced as Melee?

We could definitely make the game as fast as Melee if we so wish. But I think we want to establish a new kind of unique pace. Not as fast as Melee, but faster than 64, and definitely worlds ahead of vBrawl.

 

[Iamthemovie]

Default Settings Modifier [9 lines]
04523300 DEADBEEF

Are you serious?

 

[trojanpooh]

We could definitely make the game as fast as Melee if we so wish. But I think we want to establish a new kind of unique pace. Not as fast as Melee, but faster than 64, and definitely worlds ahead of vBrawl.

The thing is, I just don't understand why we want a game that is closer to Brawl than Melee. I know we "don't want Melee 2.0", and I understand avoiding things like the MAD, but why avoid things that worked well just because "we don't want Melee 2.0". Melee had a good speed, and I think Brawl+ should mimic it more than it mimics vBrawl or Smash64.

 

[grim mouser]

Default Settings Modifier [9 lines]
04523300 DEADBEEF

Are you serious?

It's HEX (I think., or Float?). DEADBEEF just happens to be the string of characters there.

It's not a prank, if that's what you were thinking.

 

[Revven]

The thing is, I just don't understand why we want a game that is closer to Brawl than Melee. I know we "don't want Melee 2.0", and I understand avoiding things like the MAD, but why avoid things that worked well just because "we don't want Melee 2.0". Melee had a good speed, and I think Brawl+ should mimic it more than it mimics vBrawl or Smash64.

Because any faster and it alienates players that try it for the first time (namely, the vBrawl players). vBrawl playerts that aren't close minded and are interested in B+ may be turned off if the speed and gravity is ridiculous to the point that everyone doesn't play ANYTHING like their vBrawl counterparts.

The point of B+ is to expand on Brawl competitively, rid of its campy nature, allow for combos, be slightly faster but not enough to completely alienate new players, and most of all more depth (this is what makes SMASH a competitive SMASH game). If all we do is focus on speed from here on, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we lost any interest that was there from the vB side of things JUST because we went even faster than now.

 

[trojanpooh]

Because any faster and it alienates players that try it for the first time (namely, the vBrawl players). vBrawl playerts that aren't close minded and are interested in B+ may be turned off if the speed and gravity is ridiculous to the point that everyone doesn't play ANYTHING like their vBrawl counterparts.

The point of B+ is to expand on Brawl competitively, rid of its campy nature, allow for combos, be slightly faster but not enough to completely alienate new players, and most of all more depth (this is what makes SMASH a competitive SMASH game). If all we do is focus on speed from here on, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we lost any interest that was there from the vB side of things JUST because we went even faster than now.

But the thing is, the way the codes are set up right now are alienating people who don't like the settings you guys are making. Before, it was easy to make your own code set that you use for fun when you are at your own house. Now, there is no explanation of how to change the values yourself, no raw codes, and not all values are told (I had to Google what the hitstun value was). Not to be rude, but the everyday Brawl+ player needs to know how to use these codes so they can tweak them themselves.

(If this info is already readily available, I apologize. I didn't see it anywhere on the first two posts)

SUPER IMPORTANT EDIT: I was using the new Beta 3 and the game froze on me after a match. I don't know why this happened, but its the second time since I started using the Beta sets instead of other ones. I have never had this problem with the Mookie, Kupo, MuBa codes, so I am assuming that it has to do with the character specific changes the first time it was Sonic vs Ness or Lucas (I can't remember) and the second was DDD versus Pit.

 

[Bowser King]

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04523300 DEADBEEF

Are you serious?

Lulz

Anyway, bowser seems a lot better this time ^_^

-Bowser King

 

[Sanu]

@trojan

THIS THIS THIS. Make it available, make a simple guide to alterations and tell us the EXACT values being use in the beta.

 

[Sanu]

It's HEX (I think., or Float?). DEADBEEF just happens to be the string of characters there.

It's not a prank, if that's what you were thinking.

Just a heads up since you seem sort of confused, single/double floating point values can be represented in hex, binary, decimal, etc.

Edit: Oh lawd double post.

 

[grim mouser]

Thanks. I didn't know that.

 

[shanus]

Alopex, I know your very vocal on the changes to upgravity, but you havent played 3.1 /3 yet. Please playtest the characters and their affect on vertical KOs, etc, and then come back and provide the feedback then. I know your not totally sold on it due to the KO preference, but I'm interested in first you playing our set before we go calling for 23988392328 changes ;-)