Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[Angrylobster]

It was intentionally put in both 64 and melee, and i've heard from now 3 people who have played brawl theres no l-canceling in any form not even if you fast fall first. They said the games still fun, but unless techniques are invented years later like in melee i don't see it being tournament viable. Really fun game tho.

I think if no new techniques are found and the game becomes stale, the tourney scene should revolve more around teams. There is inherent strategy in 2v2 games, and this could keep the game interesting for years to come finding out the best teams characters and what not.

 

[Proven]

You know what I hate about the logic argument?

"L-cancelling was the cornerstone of Melee's competitive scene. It's gone in Brawl, therefore Brawl will be less fun."

The thing I hate about it is that the depth a game is in the sum of its parts. No matter what you say, however you put it, your "logic" is just a theory/hypothesis to an experiment that hasn't been properly tested. You say this one part is important, and let's say, there's nothing in Brawl that can be used to such an extent as L-cancelling was. At the same time, we can agree that there are new things in Brawl, just not as game improving as L-cancelling. But we can't say that these new things, combined with the old things that are still in Brawl, will make Brawl less deep than Melee, or even so bad that it will become "not fun."

So sure, let's put your hypothesis up there. Let's assume before we test. Let's not believe we'll have as much if not more fun. Let's do all of that. The thing that bothers me, and happens to be what everyone else is saying, is that it's still a hypothesis, completely unproven, and you're just spewing negative emotions all over this board with making your doom and gloom seemingly fact.

And can we stop posting videos for evidence? Especially since 90% of these have really bad players, and the rest are average or maybe a little above, but still getting used to the game. And then you have to deal with the varying landing animations....


Oh, one final thing, looking through the characters, Ganon seems like he's the absolute slowest out of everyone, and in my opinion by a pretty large degree (although he pairs with Ike in being this far off on the spectrum). Take that how you will.

 

[CaitSith]

Further proof that L-canceling was intentional: You can do it not just with L and R, the shield buttons, but also with Z. How in the hell did THAT happen unintentionally.

Pardon to intrude, Z is equal to grabbing correct? To grab the buttons needed are ''R or L + A''. So in effect a shoulder button is being used.

 

[Ryven]

Proven, that's not the argument.

The argument is this:

"If shielding is not sufficiently nerfed, then characters with large amounts of aerial landing lag will not be able to use their aerial attacks against grounded characters without being punished, which will make camp -> shield a popular strategy against those characters. Thus, unless some way is found to remove lag from aerials, laggy characters will have to rely on their ground game much more, because attacking a grounded opponent from the air is not viable for them."

In Melee, landing lag was made short enough to allow aerial-to-ground attacks/combos through L-canceling. Note that many people feel the use of a button was a bad design choice, and aerials should simply have had half as much landing lag.

Since removing efficient aerial-to-ground attacks from some characters limits their options, this is being seen as a Bad Thing, unless shields have been nerfed to the point that the shield-lag from those characters' attacks makes them viable.

Of course, if the laggy player's intended victim spot-dodges, you're probably still boned, since there's no shield lag there.

Nobody's saying the game won't be fun. They're saying that it seems characters with laggy aerials may have fewer options than they did before, which may make them less interesting/viable to play.

 

[TheJalapeno]

"Oh no. what will I do without my precious advance tecniques."

D:

You learn to play Brawl. Not Melee 2.5.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Subscribing.

Peach is gonna own this game.

 

[Fletch]

It was intentionally put in both 64 and melee, and i've heard from now 3 people who have played brawl theres no l-canceling in any form not even if you fast fall first. They said the games still fun, but unless techniques are invented years later like in melee i don't see it being tournament viable. Really fun game tho.

Have you talked to them about Peach? Seems like she is going to be absolute **** now without L-cancel...

 

[Sculelos]

Smash will definitely not suck. Without L-Canceling we must simply learn to use our brains and use the right moves at the right times.

New game, new things to learn, it's not that complex if some characters are crippled I will simply not play them.

I'm hoping the game is more simular to N64 smash then Melee though, N64 smash had overall much better balance, although Melee was still really fun to play.

I'm not knocking on any advance techs either as I use everything I know of to put me ahead and I crushed everyone I played at both n64 and Melee.

I look forward to normal people maby doing a bit better against me as they tire of being repeatedly crushed over and over again.

Well shortly we will see I guess.

 

[legendofme]

Look @ key moments in this video. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aYYIffOx5z8

The key moments are @ :15, :25, 1:14, 1:44, 1:54, 2:02. See how they don't stay in hit stun for long.

Metaknight is sure enough giving him a run for death. But the multidodge mechanics, and sweetspotting is keeping him alive even with metaknight's low lag aerials. And that crucial moment where Bowser did an uair and almost killed him vertically. Plus the cpu was doing stupid things anyhow. If it had been a player, and not a cpu he was too high in the air to suffer from lag he would have killed Meta by doing another uair. Seeing as Brawl is just a bit more floaty than Melee it kinda helps everyone out. I will admit it seems less forgiving, and newb friendly. Because in melee you had to make less mistakes seeing as the mechanics weren't like this. It was a lot more weight based, and you can only dodge once.

And watch how Bowser and Fox immeadiately recover after every hit to dodge right afterwards even if in mid-air. Now until we see it in one on one pro vs pro human play how can you say the laggy characters will get the bad end of the stick. Recovery on most of the characters have been buffed. Even if l-cancel was still here in Brawl....an analysis would point to that some of the original melee combos probably (thats probably) wouldn't connect due to the recovery and air dodging. So that's pretty flawed right there. No more triple knee combos by Falcon, or combos by Marth players. Now combine the mechanics with DI-----right. They would just air dodge out of a combo using DI after the hit to retaliate with there own attack. So---I dunno.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I'm hoping the game is more simular to N64 smash then Melee though, N64 smash had overall much better balance

lol no it didn't.

 

[jamin686]

I've never L-Canceled and I know people are hardcore about it all, but I think it will make the game more balanced. I've always just thought the animations are there for a reason - to make certain moves more risky to pull off because of the animation lag time. From what it looks like with Brawl they just cut out a lot of the crap that didn't make any sense and made the characters move in a more 'suspension of disbelief' environment. Meaning, I get that they can fly and shoot lasers and what have you, but seeing the frames just get completely skipped kind of takes me out of the game. I think it'll add more consistency to things in general. And I think I like the way they're handling the air dodge mechanics better, though I haven't played the game yet. Smash is a game built largely around momentum of your character, so it just makes more sense that they wouldn't be able to change direction mid-air with a dodge.

 

[kekz23]

I've never L-Canceled and I know people are hardcore about it all, but I think it will make the game more balanced. I've always just thought the animations are there for a reason - to make certain moves more risky to pull off because of the animation lag time. From what it looks like with Brawl they just cut out a lot of the crap that didn't make any sense and made the characters move in a more 'suspension of disbelief' environment. Meaning, I get that they can fly and shoot lasers and what have you, but seeing the frames just get completely skipped kind of takes me out of the game. I think it'll add more consistency to things in general. And I think I like the way they're handling the air dodge mechanics better, though I haven't played the game yet. Smash is a game built largely around momentum of your character, so it just makes more sense that they wouldn't be able to change direction mid-air with a dodge.

amen and signed

 

[Renth]

**** Brawl

 

[Dark Sonic]

L-canceling is exactly what made melee more balanced. Those really laggy moves on the slower characters was really just too much, and the slow character's is who L-canceling benifited the most, closing the gap between them and the faster characters. Yes, character's should have lag on their moves, but characters also need to have a few "safe" moves. Moves that can be done against a defending opponent with little to no risk to the user, to force the opponent to go on the offense. Slow characters simply didn't have any safe moves before L-canceling, so you could just wait and see what they do. If they jump just shield, and if they attack you get a shield grab. With L-canceling however, they'll use their newfound "safe" moves (like Gannon's fair, Bowser's fair, Dk's nair, ect.) and have time to escape punishment, and make the faster characters actually approach them. What's even better is that now that they could escape punishment, they could also just sit their while you assume they were going to run away. Mindgames!!!! Too bad you wouldn't be able to do that if you didn't have the option of running away in the first place huh.

P.S. I know how you feel Renth, but you don't need to deter everyone else away from it. Maybe we'll find some hidden techniques or something. After all, we didn't know that wavedashing was in melee for quite a while, even though the developers did (and even they didn't see the applications.) Maybe this new ink drop thing will be the new wavedash, and if all else fails we still have pivoting. There's still hope (at least for a while).

 

[Adi]

I would also like to add to those who don't L-cancel because they believe it's a glitch. It was intentionally added to Melee. It existed in 64 and the producers acknowledged it and adapted it for melee.

 

[legendofme]

wow and we see how well those guys did at the top metagame for the last half a decade with l-cancel. OMG everybody DK and Ganon are contenders, pre-Brawl, bet that-----:******::******::******:

Sheiks, Foxes, Marths Oh My...

As I recall a lot of agile characters still had lots lag on aerials if they missed/blocked wasn't l-canceled. Let's see If my memory still good.


Marth Dair, Falcon Fair/Dair/Uair, Fox Uair, Jiggly Bair, etc. What someone needs to do is record Melee without those 2 main tactics, and try to play a match like that. You will see a big difference in how the match-ups will differ. I just don't see how. Everyone is titled to their opinions.

 

[Xsyven]

Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

I played SSBM for 4 years without L Cancelling. It was fun for all of them. I learned advanced techniques the last year of it's life, and it's still fun. Guess what? Going back to primal play is still going to be fun, like it was for the first four years.

 

[iMichael]

I've never L-Canceled and I know people are hardcore about it all, but I think it will make the game more balanced. I've always just thought the animations are there for a reason - to make certain moves more risky to pull off because of the animation lag time. From what it looks like with Brawl they just cut out a lot of the crap that didn't make any sense and made the characters move in a more 'suspension of disbelief' environment. Meaning, I get that they can fly and shoot lasers and what have you, but seeing the frames just get completely skipped kind of takes me out of the game. I think it'll add more consistency to things in general. And I think I like the way they're handling the air dodge mechanics better, though I haven't played the game yet. Smash is a game built largely around momentum of your character, so it just makes more sense that they wouldn't be able to change direction mid-air with a dodge.

It's really hard to believe that you never L-Cancelled......This really does suck that there is no l-cancelling...but like I said earlier for those of us who did use advance techs...we'll just have to suck it up and deal with it. We'll find new techs and that's what's going to seperate the Competitive Smasher from the the casual one....like in Melee.

 

[El Cancel]

i like lag. brawl is gonna be fun.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

L-canceling is exactly what made melee more balanced. Those really laggy moves on the slower characters was really just too much, and the slow character's is who L-canceling benifited the most, closing the gap between them and the faster characters. Yes, character's should have lag on their moves, but characters also need to have a few "safe" moves. Moves that can be done against a defending opponent with little to no risk to the user, to force the opponent to go on the offense. Slow characters simply didn't have any safe moves before L-canceling, so you could just wait and see what they do. If they jump just shield, and if they attack you get a shield grab. With L-canceling however, they'll use their newfound "safe" moves (like Gannon's fair, Bowser's fair, Dk's nair, ect.) and have time to escape punishment, and make the faster characters actually approach them. What's even better is that now that they could escape punishment, they could also just sit their while you assume they were going to run away. Mindgames!!!! Too bad you wouldn't be able to do that if you didn't have the option of running away in the first place huh.

P.S. I know how you feel Renth, but you don't need to deter everyone else away from it. Maybe we'll find some hidden techniques or something. After all, we didn't know that wavedashing was in melee for quite a while, even though the developers did (and even they didn't see the applications.) Maybe this new ink drop thing will be the new wavedash, and if all else fails we still have pivoting. There's still hope (at least for a while).

The fact that Melee was unbalanced overall kind of cancels out your point. Brawl if anything, is a hella lot more balanced than Melee will ever dream of being.

 

[legendofme]

El Cancel 0.o lololol. Wow...The cancel en espanol.

 

[Snakeyes]

The lack of it will make the competitive matches less fun to watch, that's for sure. Good bye combos. Oh well.. guess Brawl will end up as a party game this time.

 

[SheerMadness]

Its no coincidence that ssb64 was incredibly balanced because Z-Canceling removed ALL LAG from ALL AERIALS. Its also no coincidence that Melee was far less balanced because you could only cut aerial lag in 1/2. And it won't be a coincidence when brawl is the most unbalanced of all 3 games. The loss of L-Canceling sure as hell wont "balance" the game more. It will only make the faster and less laggy characters that much better than the rest of the characters.

They've ruined smash with brawl, IMO.

 

[MeLeo]

Its no coincidence that ssb64 was incredibly balanced because Z-Canceling removed ALL LAG from ALL AERIALS. Its also no coincidence that Melee was far less balanced because you could only cut aerial lag in 1/2. And it won't be a coincidence when brawl is the most unbalanced of all 3 games. The loss of L-Canceling sure as hell wont "balance" the game more. It will only make the faster and less laggy characters that much better than the rest of the characters.

They've ruined smash with brawl, IMO.

Quoted for Truth!

Geez I like how everyone arguing in favor of no L-Cancelling by saying it balances the game seem to ignore Ganondorf...

 

[Snakeyes]

I wouldn't say the game is ruined already, I'll give the community (and myself) a few months to discover new techs. If the game remains as slow and combo-free after all that time, I'll jump ship to another competitive fighter (probably SFIV). It's just a shame to see the hardcore side of Smash gone like that, because the game was something truly unique.

 

[jamin686]

The lack of it will make the competitive matches less fun to watch, that's for sure. Good bye combos. Oh well.. guess Brawl will end up as a party game this time.

Hah, it's not like comboing is going to disappear, I can chain moves together all the time without any sort of advanced techniques. Now at least they will make more sense in the context of the game.

 

[NES n00b]

The fact that Melee was unbalanced overall kind of cancels out your point. Brawl if anything, is a hella lot more balanced than Melee will ever dream of being.

You are kidding right? So everyone besides peach has very laggy moves, and this is balanced how?

Post above, you and your friends are horrible so of course you can chain combos on non DIing opponents. I am guessing uptilt to something will be the main stay of comboing in this game. >_> RIVETTING!

 

[dizzy]

The fact that Melee was unbalanced overall kind of cancels out your point. Brawl if anything, is a hella lot more balanced than Melee will ever dream of being.

This is ridiculous. You can't argue that Brawl is "more balanced than Melee" when it's been out for all of two days, especially if you've never played the game. Brawl seems fairly balanced now because any character can win in casual play--but at the casual level, Melee is balanced too! We won't reasonably be able to compare Brawl's balance OR depth to Melee's for another three years, at least.

 

[bastula]

who the HECK CARES? get over it.

OP, you should play brawl first then get back to us.

 

[Irow]

Look L-Cancel was great and all for Melee and 64, but that's pretty much because those games had a lot more lag in their attacks. Just look at Brawl, many characters have a lot less lag then they did in previous incarnations. Could it not be possible that an attack from Melee now has just as much lag as it's L-Canceled form from Melee?

Think about it, even if you were afraid of it being a shield-grab fest, the game overall has less lag.

And to Renth, who I know is mad about Brawl, you really have to think about how much faster Brawl is when compared to Melee from it's starting days. I know you were one of the best Ganondorf's from Melee, but even he seems to have gotten quicker when compared to Melee. Renth, I hope you really try the game out before you bash out the game for being non-competitive. I mean when Melee came out, a bunch of people that played Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter deemed it a non-competitive game, a party game at best. People who played more classic styled fighters often thought that people who tried to play Melee at a competitive level should move on to a "real" fighter game.

 

[Zodiac]

Brawl will never meet the competitive height that melee did with "casual friendly" riddling its development influence.

 

[NES n00b]

Did you see Falcon's and Ganon's laggy *** moves? They beg to differ on the matter of "overall less lag."

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

This is ridiculous. You can't argue that Brawl is "more balanced than Melee" when it's been out for all of two days, especially if you've never played the game. Brawl seems fairly balanced now because any character can win in casual play--but at the casual level, Melee is balanced too! We won't reasonably be able to compare Brawl's balance OR depth to Melee's for another three years, at least.

I don't see how it's ridiculous. In Melee, some of the speedy characters had moves that did 20%. In this game their moves are nerfed to what they should be. Not only that, but the percentages to be KO'd have also changed in favor of the character's weight class. I may not have played the game, but the people in Japan have and are playing. These videos of the final game should be enough to use for speculation.

 

[SheerMadness]

Its no coincidence that ssb64 was incredibly balanced because Z-Canceling removed ALL LAG from ALL AERIALS. Its also no coincidence that Melee was far less balanced because you could only cut aerial lag in 1/2. And it won't be a coincidence when brawl is the most unbalanced of all 3 games. The loss of L-Canceling sure as hell wont "balance" the game more. It will only make the faster and less laggy characters that much better than the rest of the characters.


To reiterate my previous post.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Its no coincidence that ssb64 was incredibly balanced because Z-Canceling removed ALL LAG from ALL AERIALS. Its also no coincidence that Melee was far less balanced because you could only cut aerial lag in 1/2. And it won't be a coincidence when brawl is the most unbalanced of all 3 games. The loss of L-Canceling sure as hell wont "balance" the game more. It will only make the faster and less laggy characters that much better than the rest of the characters.


To reiterate my previous post.

Maybe faster characters are looked upon as better in the minds of some people. Sure, speed isn't everything, but it sure helps. Heavy characters should be slow, it's their nature. They are not supposed to be fast or quick, they're mainly supposed to be more powerful than speed characters. Sure speed can help you land in some quick hits, but compared to the power of heavier characters, a few hits and 1 powerful one can be equal. Your philosophy is basically "What good is power without the speed to use it." It's almost like saying "What good is speed when you have no power." Look at the characters you're using and you'll see why they are the way they are.

 

[Dark Sonic]

wow and we see how well those guys did at the top metagame for the last half a decade with l-cancel. OMG everybody DK and Ganon are contenders, pre-Brawl, bet that-----:******::******::******:

Sheiks, Foxes, Marths Oh My...

As I recall a lot of agile characters still had lots lag on aerials if they missed/blocked wasn't l-canceled. Let's see If my memory still good.


Marth Dair, Falcon Fair/Dair/Uair, Fox Uair, Jiggly Bair, etc. What someone needs to do is record Melee without those 2 main tactics, and try to play a match like that. You will see a big difference in how the match-ups will differ. I just don't see how. Everyone is titled to their opinions.

But at the same time, those characters also had much safer attacks that they would simply abuse instead. The slower characters didn't have that option, and thus never really had an approach.

Gannondorf became a contender thanks to L-canceling, as well as Captain Falcon now that he could hit your shield without getting shield grabbed. It brought Falco to the plate because pillaring became usefull, and Jigg's rest combos became easier to link. Mario got the ability to juggle people with his Uair, and Doc's fair became a safe kill move. Still think it didn't help the slower characters more?

And to the guy that said melee was unbalanced, I know a few other figthing games that had only a few competative characters as well.

Narutimate Accel: Banned: Time Skip Shikamaru, Sasori, and later Deidara.
Competative characters: TS Rock Lee, TS Neji, Kakashi.

Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4: Competative characters: One Tailed Kyuubi Naruto, Gaara Kimmimaro, Sasuke.

Yeah, I'm a naruto fan. But that first one is a highly competative game, and it's already got 3 banned characters and only 3 tournament viable ones. It's got it's fair share of banned stages too. And that game is considered fairly balanced too. You've got 3 characters that are a cut above the rest and then everyone else is about the same.

But guess what. Melee's got 5 tournament viable characters, with the mid tiers not too far behind. The gap between mid and low tier is kinda big though.

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't see how it's ridiculous. In Melee, some of the speedy characters had moves that did 20%. In this game their moves are nerfed to what they should be. Not only that, but the percentages to be KO'd have also changed in favor of the character's weight class. I may not have played the game, but the people in Japan have and are playing. These videos of the final game should be enough to use for speculation.

Yes. People in Japan have played the game. Last I checked, Dedede ***** Ike when played by two professional smashers. Brawl is nowhere near as balanced as you think it is. Maybe it's more balanced than Melee, but without L-canceling to make aerial games possible for slower characters, the slow pokes are just going to fall by the wayside, IMO.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I still say it's FAR too early to say Brawl will be any less competitive due to lack of L-Cancel. It could be sure, but then again a year down the road somebody could find something that makes heavy characters godlike, or people with multiple jumps like Kirby/MK have crazy combos, and so forth.

I think we should let the game come out and pay it for a while before we say how it fares next to Melee. And if it isn't as competitive as Melee was...just stop playing it and go back to Melee. That's how a lot of 2D fighters are, like when everyone went back to SF3 3rd Strike when Capcom Fighting Jam was found to be crap.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Yes. People in Japan have played the game. Last I checked, Dedede ***** Ike when played by two professional smashers. Brawl is nowhere near as balanced as you think it is. Maybe it's more balanced than Melee, but without L-canceling to make aerial games possible for slower characters, the slow pokes are just going to fall by the wayside, IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, even the fast character's aerial game has been described as "not so good" or bad. Sonic and MK are examples. Maybe air game isn't a heavy character's nature, b/c of gravity.

 

[NES n00b]

If I'm not mistaken, even the fast character's aerial game has been described as "not so good" or bad. Sonic and MK are examples. Maybe air game isn't a heavy character's nature, b/c of gravity.

You don't know what you are talking about. You don't know competitive Melee or 64 metagame and you definitely do not know even close to Brawl's since you do not even have experience in the last two.