Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[PyrasTerran]

I will concede that it is more reasonable for expert players to draw logical conclusions.

But I'm afraid that is all. I'm sorry, but at this moment I must see it with my eyes and touch it with my hands before I am convinced otherwise.

No disrespect meant.

 

[Junpappy]

Let's all argue and cry more about the metagame that doesn't exist yet! YAAAY!!!

 

[Phyvo]

Or, you know... you could short hop your least laggy areal through them so they don't grab you. Best they can do then is a tilt, and even then if it's a slow tilt you can spot dodge and roll. An expert would light up to the challenge of finding workaround to their favorite moves, not complain about it on a forum.

Shield grabbing is faster, heavier characters not so much.

Your only hope is to somehow knock them away when you attack (haven't seen any moves that do this yet) or poke at the shield until it breaks.

As I said before, shield grabbing isn't an invincible strategy. But it looks like a strong one, and strong defensive strategies lead to a more campy and less fun game.

FYI, I am not a pro, I just listen to them and then spit their arguments back out because they're too sick and tired of this type of discussion to do it themselves. That's why the only thing Sliq ever does to newbies is straight up insult them.

 

[KosukeKGA]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3r54AfB-Qc&feature=user

Ike seems to move just fine without L-cancelling...



Are we seeing the same video? Except for his fair, his nair and bair hit lightning quick in the air...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eAIofUYGj7Y

Wrong.

Look how terrible Ike's Fair is like as well as his other aerials in the first battle.

The removing of L-Canceling was a big mistake.
It isn't an exploit you scrubs.

 

[veil222]

Against fast characters you've gotta fall into it from a bit higher so they don't do that. I do it with C. Falcons Dair all the time, shield grabbing will probably be more useful, but the game looks like the areal game is more emphasized. So if they sit and shield all the time just keep away... use projectiles.. basically wait for them to mess up. It's like in Fencing, if you're up against someone that does nothing but parry waiting for an easy riposte, make them attack by providing a false opening or abusing reach if you have it. Mindgaming pwns shield grabbing.

 

[RedrappeR]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eAIofUYGj7Y

Wrong.

Look how terrible Ike's Fair is like in the first battle.

The removing of L-Canceling was a big mistake.
It isn't an exploit you scrubs.

Link us someone playing as Ike. That's a CPU.

 

[veil222]

Kosu... read more than the first sentence before you respond with some random response trashing the person making the competitive end of people looking like newbie bashing a**holes. He specifically said, "Except for his fair"... and you complain that he's wrong because you think is fair is slow. The guy stated his fair is slow, and you're mad because because you think Ike's fair is slow. Genius.

 

[PyrasTerran]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eAIofUYGj7Y

Wrong.

Look how terrible Ike's Fair is like as well as his other aerials in the first battle.

The removing of L-Canceling was a big mistake.
It isn't an exploit you scrubs.

Look how terrible Ike plays with a computer at hand.

Please show me a human Ike player, where the character is used skillfully and not systematically.

EDIT: like this one -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=4R27fx8sJL8

 

[paper_crane]

The consequences of l-canceling's absence really depend on how much lag has been shaved off in the transition between Melee and Brawl. If most of Brawl's aerials have around half the lag as Melee's non-canceled aerials, l-canceling's absence will be no great loss. Though we've seen a few isolated examples where this isn't the case, like Ganon's fair, we've also seen a number of powerful aerials that finish much faster than they did in Melee, like Bowser's fair. Since we don't know the details of every aerial attack in the game, it's too early to say whether the aerial game will really suffer that much.

That said, a lot of people have pointed out that shields suffer more stun and pushback this time around, meaning that stronger moves like Ganon's fair may be difficult to punish on block, even with the increased lag. Obviously, Ganon's fair will be more vulnerable on whiff than before, but he may also have faster aerials to fall back on, like his nair. We don't know at this point if Ganon's other aerials will be fast enough to make him competitive--there's the possibility that he will lag to the point of becoming unplayable, but we can't tell until we get our hands on the game.

 

[paper_crane]

edit: double post, sorry.

 

[PXTalon2000]

This is one of the only posts i have made in the brawl boards, but no pro is scared of the removal of L cancelling as much as they are worried that this game will become unplayable without it. I am seeing a massive advantage to just sitting still and grabbing to beat any arial approaches. Doesn't sound too fun to me.

So what i'm saying is, L cancelling isn't reducing a skill gap so much as it is making it a non competitive fighter.
Many pros would be ecstatic to find that all moves are just naturally cancelled. It's not the advantage L cancelling brings us that makes people sad that it's gone. It's the competitive playability L cancelling brought that makes some people worry about brawl.

EDIT: This is HugS on Phils account, whoops.

 

[Magus420]

We do know the lag of just about all of Ganon's other aerials actually.

The first numbers are l-cancelled in melee, and parentheses is not l-cancelled. Then after the --> is Brawl's numbers.

F-air - 12 (25) --> 34-35
D-air - 17 (35) --> 39-40
B-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
N-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
U-air - 12 (25) --> ??? (I'm pretty sure this will be the same as the b/n-air)

Also, his jab seems to hit on the 7-8th frame instead of the 3rd like in melee. This is quite a difference and very important. His jab is what was barely able to sometimes save his *** after landing with these moves even when l-cancelled.

I mainly point this out for the people that insist that "L-cancelling is not needed because everyones lag is reduced and balanced" because it isn't.

 

[KosukeKGA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSOvVO-FhJY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmG5mpyJk8g

 

[Misto-Roboto]

This is Aimed towards the casuals/stereotypers:

Sure, there is the possibility that we may discover a wide plethora of techniques, but that is still no excuse to why we sholud ignore the blatant opt for simplicity this game is trying to represent. My advice would be to actually go to tournaments and be an active participant in the tournament community before you try to stereotype and assume said position. It may not be a problem for you, but don't attempt to be optimistic by viewing this situation in a position that you have little to no experience in.

Wait you're complaining because of a game known to be extremely simple is following a simplistic approach? Ummm.... what?

 

[paper_crane]

We do know the lag of just about all of Ganon's other aerials actually.

The first numbers are l-cancelled in melee, and parentheses is not l-cancelled. Then after the --> is Brawl's numbers.

F-air - 12 (25) --> 34-35
D-air - 17 (35) --> 39-40
B-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
N-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
U-air - 12 (25) --> ??? (I'm pretty sure this will be the same as the b/n-air)

Also, his jab seems to hit on the 7-8th frame instead of the 3rd like in melee. This is quite a difference and very important. His jab is what was barely able to sometimes save his *** after landing with these moves even when l-cancelled.

Just out of curiosity, where did you find those numbers? I'm pretty sure Melee's frame data was compiled with the help of an AR, but for Brawl we don't have that luxury. Do you have another source?

 

[SheerMadness]

I think anyone who enjoys or has enjoyed the competitive scene of smash is terrified of brawl. If the no L-Cancel thing is as bad as it looks with Ganon with most other characters there are going to be a ton of really upset smashers out there.

 

[Magus420]

The game runs @ 60fps, and the videos are at ~30fps so each frame in the videos I looked at are ~2 frames in-game. It's not exact because of the frame drops and the quality not being top notch, but I also compared them using several different sources where they are using the moves multiple times. That's why I give a range since not all of the information is present to see exactly when it begins/ends. It's a bit more clear when the frames are deinterlaced through blending though since you get 2 frames in one basically.

 

[err]

That said, a lot of people have pointed out that shields suffer more stun and pushback this time around, meaning that stronger moves like Ganon's fair may be difficult to punish on block

except when they spotdodge.. which will be pretty much anytime they see you approaching from the air.

some characters just seem sooooo fvkd, i really hope team battles allow these guys to flex nuts (they wont), i wonder how poorly DK is going to fare

 

[ArcNatural]

Wait you're complaining because of a game known to be extremely simple is following a simplistic approach? Ummm.... what?

Melee was not simple. So I don't see where you get a game known to be extremely simple. Neither melee or 64 were designed to be "completely simple", they were designed to be fun. L-canceling was PROGRAMMED into both previous smash games.

This has been argued to death, but there really is no need to remove L-canceling in terms of a player's perspective. Either play with people who use them, or don't. The only viable reason of removal is they were afraid that the online play would be too laggy to have this implemented properly. I would have still been happy if they made versus mode and 1p mode l-cancelable, and online play not. Obviously, this has not appeared to have happened.

I would of rather of had all aerial attacks to have had 10-20 frames of lag than what it seems to be. Why? Speedy characters already have the advantage of being evasive. It's much harder to actually hit a faster character than for a faster character to counter whatever you try. I really don't think the heavy armor strategy will help balance it out if they just dash dance camp to grab you the whole time. Sorry but heavy armor doesn't help you if your grabbed.

As long as there will be some characters that have the ability to aerial combo I will be happy. But single hit and run tactics get boring fast.

 

[Sliq]

In this thread noobs without any knowledge of competitive meta-game tell competitives about the meta-game, and how Sakurai is going to ride in on his unicorn made of fairy tears and **** out a disc of pure gold.

This game will rock for noobs because EVERYTHING they loves is back, but it will blow for competitives because everything they love has been ***** and then murdered at the whim of the programmers because of noobs crying "CHEAP!"

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Yo Hi Doodly Dandy! I poped by and noticed this thread was still goin' on.

Now I have only ONE question;




How many people have Brawl?​

Until you have played this first hand, your possibly being bias.​

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Melee was not simple. So I don't see where you get a game known to be extremely simple. Neither melee or 64 were designed to be "completely simple", they were designed to be fun. L-canceling was PROGRAMMED into both previous smash games.

Can you actually prove it was intentionally programmed in there. Seeing as how you can't, you might as well classify it as a bug. And yes, Smash 64 and Melee were made with a simplistic approach. This is why we don't have massive button combo inputs that make up the characters moves. Controls are kept simple. Quit trying to find complexity where it doesn't exist.

 

[XxAlucardxX]

it will be better, because all the new players now have a chance to start training possibly at the same level as the pro ones because the game play is different. l canceling also made the game look uglier because it canceled the animation of the character.

 

[flashfox]

Poor poor Ganondorf. =(

It's like...he regressed O_o.

 

[Frogles]

Can you actually prove it was intentionally programmed in there. Seeing as how you can't, you might as well classify it as a bug. And yes, Smash 64 and Melee were made with a simplistic approach. This is why we don't have massive button combo inputs that make up the characters moves. Controls are kept simple. Quit trying to find complexity where it doesn't exist.

while i can't prove that it was intended for ssb, it was definitely intended to be in melee. they not only left it in there, but they altered it so that it would only cut half the lag of air attacks. i don't see how anybody can view this as unintentional.

and i agree sheer. taking out l-cancelling is the worst thing they could have done to smash. my smashing spirit died a little when i saw that ganon vid.

 

[Stueyman2099]

Whether Smash Bros. without L-cancelling is a worse game, I can't begin to guess. What I do know is that it's a very different one.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Can you actually prove it was intentionally programmed in there.

First of all, that should end with a question mark, not a period.

Of course it was programmed into the game...I don't know if you noticed, but in SSB Z cancelling took away all lag from aerials. In SSBM, L cancelling took away half the lag from aerials. What sort of programming causes that change? Intentional programming.

 

[Angrylobster]

Can you actually prove it was intentionally programmed in there. Seeing as how you can't, you might as well classify it as a bug. And yes, Smash 64 and Melee were made with a simplistic approach. This is why we don't have massive button combo inputs that make up the characters moves. Controls are kept simple. Quit trying to find complexity where it doesn't exist.

Just because you're blind to the complexity that Melee has doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[turboether]

i wonder if this thread will be worth digging up for lulz in about 6 months...

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'll dig it up to prove that competitives were right when the brawl scene is nothing more then a defensive/campy dash dancing, shield grabbing, projectile whoring fest.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

the rest are here: http://www.ubergaming.net/?p=games/Melee/instructions.php

look at the whole instruction booklet if you must, there not a single page (unless i miss it somewhere) that talk about that you can L-cancel

 

[iMichael]

ROFL This whole match I didn't L-cancel....look how gay it is.....that's what Brawl is going to be like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXAAU6wqiw&feature=related

Edit: I also did some roll dodges and Mario's F-air hitting nothing =D LMAO

 

[Angrylobster]

the rest are here: http://www.ubergaming.net/?p=games/Melee/instructions.php

look at the whole instruction booklet if you must, there not a single page (unless i miss it somewhere) that talk about that you can L-cancel

And? Whats your point?

 

[daimyo]

And? Whats your point?

I think his point was that l-canceling wasn't supposed to be in melee

 

[Heavyarms2050]

I think his point was that l-canceling wasn't supposed to be in melee

and/or it was never made official

but the main point i'm trying to say is that the brawl instruction booklet may not say you can L-cancel or lag-cancel, but you can still do it

 

[Wight]

i thought the exact same thing when i saw that video before. I dont agree with the auto Lcanceling, either that or speed characters which seemed to have this "auto Lcanceling" are going to dominate even more in brawl than before.

I'm not too worried at this point however. New engine sadly means less of the old techs, however it also means we will eventually find new techs, tricks and glitches to abuse.

Only time will tell.

 

[Angrylobster]

and/or it was never made official

I don't see how you can argue that it was atleast intentional in melee. In the original, all lag was cut from air moves through z canceling; while in melee they were cut in half, but it still existed. How was this not intentional?

Oh yeah, Cross ups in Street Fighter II aren't mentioned in the manual, but they are intentionally put in the game. Why can't the same be true for l canceling?

 

[Heavyarms2050]

I don't see how you can argue that it was atleast intentional in melee. In the original, all lag was cut from air moves through z canceling; while in melee they were cut in half, but it still existed. How was this not intentional?

Oh yeah, Cross ups in Street Fighter II aren't mentioned in the manual, but they are intentionally put in the game. Why can't the same be true for l canceling?

edited my post

but the main point i'm trying to say is that the brawl instruction booklet may not say you can L-cancel or lag-cancel, but you can still do it

 

[Eggm]

It was intentionally put in both 64 and melee, and i've heard from now 3 people who have played brawl theres no l-canceling in any form not even if you fast fall first. They said the games still fun, but unless techniques are invented years later like in melee i don't see it being tournament viable. Really fun game tho.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Further proof that L-canceling was intentional: You can do it not just with L and R, the shield buttons, but also with Z. How in the hell did THAT happen unintentionally.