Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[~tgm_Zeej]

I played smash for 6 years before I learned any advanced techs.

Guess what? I was still playing for six years. A game with that staying power will be competitive, no matter the circumstances.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I really wish people would quit jumping to the conclusion that slower characters are gonna automatically suck because of the lack of L-Cancelling. Unless of course you all have magic time machines and have been to several tourneys for Brawl, if that's the case then share the wealth.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

How do we know L-Cancel isn't in the game it could still be...plus there will be new ADV TECH's so i wouldn't really worry good players will still dominate

 

[PyrasTerran]

Ike doesn't do a single aerial in this video. Not one. How does a video where without even ONE l-cancelable move demonstrate anything about l-canceling? I assure you, Ikes aerials have TONS of lag.

Then the strategy is simple; only use aerials when you are certain that you can land a hit and send them flying(which Ike can do aLOT of), giving you time to recover from the lag.

If you're uncertain, then you don't use them. Ike has a counter so he can protect himself from opposing aerials anyway.

Problem solved.

I do not mean this in a condescending way, I promise, but do you know what L-canceling does? It cuts down the LANDING lag AFTER the aerial. It doesn't matter how fast his moves come out in the air, the problem is that Ganon sits there for a week AFTER every laggy aerial.

Yes, I know what L-cancel does. But these characters are still heavy characters. The reason their lag shouldn't matter is because if the player is good enough and HITS the opponent, it won't matter how laggy they are because the opponent is still going to be flying from their aerial.

Basically, rinse and repeat same as Ike. Considering that Ganondorf can now kill an opponent at 60% across half of Zelda's temple with his fair, imagine what other boosts his attacks will have gotten. It doesn't matter if the opponent can hit him more times, every blow Ganondorf deals will have an equal or more destructive effect(especially since Ganondorf, Ike, etc., are difficult to knock around in the first place).

It's easier to avoid punishment from mistakes and missing aerials with quicker characters, but that's what makes heavy characters more suitable for advanced players anyway; timing and accuracy are far more important.

Does the quicker character have an advantage in speed? Obviously. But the heavy characters HAVE had their lag-time reduced even without L-cancel in Brawl(Ganondorf's warlock punch even travels faster), and armored attacks only mean that they can keep on attacking without fear of being flinched into a combo(as Ike proves against Fox with his up-B move).

Is the strategy I proposed too much, or ridiculous?

 

[Phyvo]

It's not a matter of magic time machines. It's a matter of being intimately familiar with Melee and hearing about major changes made in Brawl. They have good reason to believe what they do.

 

[gnosis]

I can't decide if it's annoying or funny hearing uneducated players talk about competitive play.

I'm sure it's been said but competitive players aren't worried about losing to casuals because they can't l-cancel anymore; they're worried about the game being fun - about it being a deep and varied experience.

No l-canceling potentially cripples a handful of characters to the point of worthlessness. It also means less shield pressure options (no more drillshines, aerial-to-jab, etc.), less combo ability (no more falcons x amount of nairs/uairs to knees), and so on. We don't like l-canceling because we like laughing at people who can't do it; I'd prefer it if everyone who wanted to play smash was blessed with god-like l-canceling ability, actually. We like it because in the end, it makes the game more fun - both to watch and to play.

There's other things that just really have me saddened, things that might mean Brawl, with all its potential in a stage builder, an awesome roster (yeah you heard me right, I love that ****), and incredible production values, could ultimately be a complete snooze fest at a competitive level.

Characters living forever due to decreased knockback, improved recovery, and gimped comboing could turn the game into just a bunch of Peach dittos =/.

Edit: I'm actually very optimistic about Brawl; I just am intimate enough with Melee to realize several potential problems.

Edit2: Pyras Terran, you're approaching Brawl's strategies intelligently, but also like someone who hasn't experienced competitive Melee. I don't think you realize just how effective camping and generally just playing keep away would be against stuff like that. Characters like Sonic, with an insane dash dance length and speed, seem like they'd only be hit if the player made a silly mistake, so a good Sonic should have no reason to lose against a good Ganon... theoretically. We shall see, of course.

 

[PyrasTerran]

It's not a matter of magic time machines. It's a matter of being intimately familiar with Melee and hearing about major changes made in Brawl. They have good reason to believe what they do.

But why? Practically everyone who's actually PLAYED the game(new and competitive) has said that they love it..!

 

[PXG]

I'm afraid that because of the lack of L cancel, you will become more vulnerable (especially slow characters) to shield grabs....As much as I can't wait for Brawl, I don't want it turning into a shield grabbing fest.

 

[Phyvo]

Then the strategy is simple; only use aerials when you are certain that you can land a hit and send them flying(which Ike can do aLOT of), giving you time to recover from the lag.

If you're uncertain, then you don't use them. Ike has a counter so he can protect himself from opposing aerials anyway.

Problem solved.

You'll always be uncertain if they're on the ground, because they can always see your aerial and then shield it. Oh crap. I guess you can't attack anyone on the ground from the air anymore, can you? Oh crap, there goes a whole part of the game which used to be interesting!

Yes, I know what L-cancel does. But these characters are still heavy characters. The reason their lag shouldn't matter is because if the player is good enough and HITS the opponent, it won't matter how laggy they are because the opponent is still going to be flying from their aerial.

Oh yes. Let me ask you something. Say Falcon punch took 1 minute to charge up, but insta-killed. Would it be useful? No. It can insta kill, but no one in their right might would get hit by it.

At the expert level there is an equivalence here. Experts simply won't get hit by laggy attacks, they'll shield them and then kill you. Just like you can kill a Samus who's charging her beam, except they do it faster. You can't just ASSUME that every Gannondorf player will be a million times better than everyone else and that experience somehow balances things. The fact is that if on average he's harder to play that's because he sucks and it takes an experienced person to do any sort of crap with him at all.

It's easier to avoid punishment from mistakes and missing aerials with quicker characters, but that's what makes heavy characters more suitable for advanced players anyway; timing and accuracy are far more important.

Yes. Now imagine an EXPERIENCED player with a fast character against an EXPERIENCED player with a slow one. Oh dang, now you're in the same boat you were before, because the latter character still sucks! It's not like all of us always get to play players worse than us, you know, especially at freakin' TOURNAMENTS.

Does the quicker character have an advantage in speed? Obviously. But the heavy characters HAVE had their lag-time reduced even without L-cancel in Brawl(Ganondorf's warlock punch even travels faster), and armored attacks only mean that they can keep on attacking without fear of being flinched into a combo(as Ike proves against Fox with his up-B move).

You seriously don't know what we're talking about, do you?

Is the strategy I proposed too much, or ridiculous?

It's akin to saying "If the character you're interested in sucks, go play high tier." It doesn't actually address the issue at all, that is, that some moves suck to such a large extent in the first place.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Then the strategy is simple; only use aerials when you are certain that you can land a hit and send them flying(which Ike can do aLOT of), giving you time to recover from the lag.

If you're uncertain, then you don't use them. Ike has a counter so he can protect himself from opposing aerials anyway.

Problem solved.

Competitive Smash doesn't work like this. Given the game's incredible freedom to move, dodge and block, you can never be sure that you're going to land an aerial. It is not a matter a deficient skill when your opponent shields your d-air. The thing is, being able to cancel the lag after that move meant you could follow up that shielded attack with something else to continue your onslaught. Now, you're just a sitting duck.

Far worse than that, however, is loss of combo potential. Even the strongest characters don't win by landing single aerials. Even Ganon needs to follow up moves and combo to win. If he can't follow up because he's busy lagging... well. You get the idea.

 

[gnosis]

The hope I see for slow characters is their moves having lots of shield stun, and landing aerials behind people so they can't shield grab you. They could jump out and aerial, but hopefully you can shield before then? Or they could spot dodge and probably be done before you're recovered...

Yeah it's not really useful sounding...

 

[Phyvo]

But why? Practically everyone who's actually PLAYED the game(new and competitive) has said that they love it..!

Can you name the competitive people who played the game and said they loved it?

....Gimpyfish?

Oh yeah, he played at E-for-All! Guess what? E-for-All had L-canceling! Too bad it didn't make it!

People are complaining because they see options removed from the game, as if suddenly in Chess you didn't have a queen or bishops anymore. Not as deep of a game anymore, is it? Still fun? Probably, but for top competitiveness you'd probably want your queen and bishops.

 

[Spellman]

L-Cancelling isn't a big deal, now you just gotta develop another strategy. You gotta make that first ariel connect, and make it a good one, or else don't even bother arieling at all, or else you'll fall into a trap. If you gotta jump, jump away from your opponent. It's that simple, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that. Most of your opponents in tournament play could L-Cancel and shuffle anyways so it was even ground, now without L-cancel, you're still on even ground. No big deal at all.

 

[SheerMadness]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Lol whoever posted this vid good ****.

This video is a PERFECT example of how some characters are going to be completely unplayable competetively without L-Canceling.

I feel sorry for any Ganondorf players.

 

[Sliq]

L-Cancelling isn't a big deal, now you just gotta develop another strategy. You gotta make that first ariel connect, and make it a good one, or else don't even bother arieling at all, or else you'll fall into a trap. If you gotta jump, jump away from your opponent. It's that simple, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that. Most of your opponents in tournament play could L-Cancel and shuffle anyways so it was even ground, now without L-cancel, you're still on even ground. No big deal at all.

This would be true if l-canceling was automatic, but it ****ing isn't.

You are completely clueless, so just shut your mouth.

 

[Dragon Master Luigi]

L/Z-Canceling is easily the most important technique in both ssb64 and melee. Not being able to shffle or l-cancel aerials is going to be ********.

I honestly don't think this game can be very competitive without it.

No!!! To you only.... I'm happy with everything!!

 

[Spellman]

This would be true if l-canceling was automatic, but it ****ing isn't.

You are completely clueless, so just shut your mouth.

No I'm not, I L-cancel all the time, what're you talking about. Automatic or not, two pro's don't screw up at a simple technique like L-cancelling, so there's no point, I'm sick of that repetitive Mortal Kombat-esque button combo that you have to pull off lightning fast, I feel liberated.

 

[PyrasTerran]

You'll always be uncertain if they're on the ground, because they can always see your aerial and then shield it.

They obviously can't always see your aerial coming. Even an advanced player can get hit by another advanced player's heavy character's aerial.

It's this part of the game where the smarter or quicker of reflex of the two gets the hit.

Even if they shield it, shields are much more unstable this time around, and if a player who uses a heavy character is actually jumping at his opponent with an aerial expecting to always hit then he is kidding himself.

I guess you can't attack anyone on the ground from the air anymore, can you?

Not as stupidly as simply jumping head-first at them, no.

Oh crap, there goes a whole part of the game which used to be interesting!

Even more interesting will be heavy players who get AROUND these weaknesses. It's NOT impossible, but you seem to think it is because you are still thinking of Melee's rules.. at least that is how it seems.

Oh yes. Let me ask you something. Say Falcon punch took 1 minute to charge up, but insta-killed. Would it be useful? No. It can insta kill, but no one in their right might would get hit by it.

Then it's a good thing NO attacks in the game take a minute to charge up, isn't it?

What exactly are you getting at with this? o.O

At the expert level there is an equivalence here. Experts simply won't get hit by laggy attacks, they'll shield them and then kill you.

Incorrect. A skilled heavy player can still knock a skilled speed player into a position where he can't do anything BUT take the attack(such as, Fox using fair on Ike who uses his smash. Ike's extra reach with his sword gives him the edge against the player that relies on Fox's speedy aerial attacks. Or, he could counter).

Just like you can kill a Samus who's charging her beam, except they do it faster.

A Samus player who charges her beam in the vicinity of her opponent isn't a very skilled Samus player. :/ You're giving examples of unskilled scenarios.

You can't just ASSUME that every Gannondorf player will be a million times better than everyone else and that experience somehow balances things.

And you can't just ASSUME that L-cancel is going to make things worse for heavy characters when we haven't even PLAYED the game for a few months to know for sure.

The fact is that if on average he's harder to play that's because he sucks and it takes an experienced person to do any sort of crap with him at all.

No, the TRUTH is that heavy characters are ALWAYS harder to play, since the dawn of fighting games. That's why they are rarely used.

Yes. Now imagine an EXPERIENCED player with a fast character against an EXPERIENCED player with a slow one. Oh dang, now you're in the same boat you were before, because the latter character still sucks! It's not like all of us always get to play players worse than us, you know, especially at freakin' TOURNAMENTS.

I simply have one word to that..

"Chu-Dat"

You seriously don't know what we're talking about, do you?

You're talking about pessimistically theoretical BS.

People complained about Melee when it first came out because of the strategies lost to 64.

This is just the cycle repeating itself. In a few months it won't even matter anymore, that's why I am taking this in stride.

It's akin to saying "If the character you're interested in sucks, go play high tier." It doesn't actually address the issue at all, that is, that some moves suck to such a large extent in the first place.

That's the issue? Wasn't it L-cancelling?

At any rate, all characters have a handful of sucky moves and a handful of great moves. Heavy characters are meant for advanced players and FFA, and Brawl is helping to eliminate the heavy advantages that speed characters had against heavy characters to make them contenders.

Of course, in a few months if it turns out that you're right and heavy characters are worse than they were before then feel free to say "i told you so". The game is still going to be amazing.

Competitive Smash doesn't work like this. Given the game's incredible freedom to move, dodge and block, you can never be sure that you're going to land an aerial. It is not a matter a deficient skill when your opponent shields your d-air. The thing is, being able to cancel the lag after that move meant you could follow up that shielded attack with something else to continue your onslaught. Now, you're just a sitting duck.

Far worse than that, however, is loss of combo potential. Even the strongest characters don't win by landing single aerials. Even Ganon needs to follow up moves and combo to win. If he can't follow up because he's busy lagging... well. You get the idea.

I suppose all we can do now is wait and see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Lol whoever posted this vid good ****.

This video is a PERFECT example of how some characters are going to be completely unplayable competetively without L-Canceling.

I feel sorry for any Ganondorf players.

Rather than posting a video of Ganondorf attacking immobile targets, you should post a video of him in an actual combat match for a better perspective and point to your argument.

 

[SheerMadness]

And you can't just ASSUME that L-cancel is going to make things worse for heavy characters when we haven't even PLAYED the game for a few months to know for sure.

Watch the Ganon target test vid and please tell me how on earth hes going to be remotely playable without L-Canceling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

No L-Canceling will pritty ruin a number of characters, one of which being Ganon.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Watch the Ganon target test vid and please tell me how on earth hes going to be remotely playable without L-Canceling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

No L-Canceling will pritty ruin a number of characters, one of which being Ganon.

Hm, you're trying to prove he's useless in a video of him attacking imobile targets in a lax manner? he isn't even TRYING to get the high score in that.

here's one where he's actually fighting other players..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCQWwvZYE1c

 

[SheerMadness]

What? The point of the vid is to see how laggy all of his aerials are...

His aerials arent going to be any less laggy against another character.

 

[gnosis]

I also see hope in two things - a combination of increased floatiness leading to attacks ending before you land, and the fast-fall-l-cancel that E4All had but hasn't been confirmed since.

Leads to the choice of either throwing the aerial out early, and being vulnerable in how long you're in the air, or remaining vulnerable as you jump up but attacking with no lag on the way down.

Brawl'll still be fun... I hope...

 

[PyrasTerran]

What? The point of the vid is to see how laggy all of his aerials are...

His aerials arent going to be any less laggy against another character.

And yet the player does just fine in an arena that is a heavy character's worst nightmare, as the link I posted shows. He's jumping all the time, attacking in the air constantly and suffering from this lag that is supposed to be crippling.. yet..?

 

[SheerMadness]

Pyras you really don't have any clue what competitive smash is like do you??

 

[Magus420]

In case anyone's wondering...

Ganon's f-air in Brawl - 34-35 frames of lag

Ganon's f-air in Melee - 25 not l-cancelled; 12 l-cancelled

It's nearly 3 times as slow and it was still quite punishable when it was 12. Meanwhile, other faster characters get reductions on their lag compared to un l-cancelled...yeah =/

 

[Spellman]

What? The point of the vid is to see how laggy all of his aerials are...

His aerials arent going to be any less laggy against another character.

Um, I think that was the point of using ariels too low to the ground. Back before L-cancelling, Link used to get his sword stuck in the ground for doing the downward sword stab. It was a punishment or a handicap for using such a powerful move. The solution was to not use that move unless you know you're going to connect, until L-cancelling came along and just said "eff that, you can use your moves whenever you want as much as you want, no catch."

 

[gnosis]

Um, I think that was the point of using ariels too low to the ground. Back before L-cancelling, Link used to get his sword stuck in the ground for doing the downward sword stab. It was a punishment or a handicap for using such a powerful move. The solution was to not use that move unless you know you're going to connect, until L-cancelling came along and just said "eff that, you can use your moves whenever you want as much as you want, no catch."

No, l-canceling actually made it so the whole 'don't do it unless you know it can hit' became somewhat of a viable strategy, because characters could have some hope for protection after using them (fair to jab with Ganon, for example), which the strategy needs because Smash has too much freedom of movement to -know- you're going to hit, say, a dash-dancing Falcon with Ganon's aforementioned fair.

Without it it's completely bunk.

Also spamming d-airs with Link is a terrible strategy in any level of play.

Edit: Really the only way to insure a hit is in a combo of some sort. And since Ganon is molasses, he doesn't get those. (theoretically we don't actually know yet haven't extensively tested his moveset etc.)

 

[Team Giza]

Ganondorf will be bottom tier... but that doesn't mean the game will suck without L-canceling.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Pyras you really don't have any clue what competitive smash is like do you??

I know what competitive smash is like, I've been to enough tournaments. apparently, I just don't know how competitive smashers think, or at least the ones on the internet.

But if that's the best you've got to say after all this, then we should probably just agree to disagree for now and save anymore pages of arguing.

Truce?

 

[sugarpoultry]

*smacks maker of the thread.*

No, it won't suck. You just will.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Pyras: Let me lay it to you straight man. I used to be a casual Virtua Fighter fan. I owned and played all of the iterations up through VF4. However, I only played against my brother and a few friends. We never took the game seriously but had fun enough ******* around in VS. for a few months. Now here's the thing: I am well aware that VF is an incredibly deep game. My friends and I were moderately good but compared to an expert player we didn't even scratch the surface of that game's potential.

Now here's the thing: if some expert player told me that an advanced technique I didn't use were pulled from VF5 and that this would be detrimental to the competitive scene, or at least to a sizable portion of the roster, I wouldn't argue with him. I would trust that, being a highly skilled player with years of experience against other highly skilled players, he knows what he's talking about. And I CERTAINLY wouldn't laugh at him and say "VF5 isn't VF4 2.0 LOL it's a new game you gotta adapt!" as some people on this forum are so fond of doing. If he told me that this removed technique was at the absolute core of the VF metagame (as l-canceling is in Smash) I would assume he knows what he's talking about.

Why, why WHY do Smash players assume that the experienced vets around here are ignorant? I promise you, all if your counterpoints to Phyvo's post are misguided. He knows what he's talking about. You just heard it here-- One of Ganon's best aerials is nearly THREE times as laggy as it was in Melee and we can do nothing about it. This is a big letdown for some of us. We are not trying to be pessimistic babies-- we are just being realistic about the situation.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

1) Less combos
2) Slower pace
3) Easier to punish

I wanted to play Ganon again so badly...how will I fair to jab? T_T

Shieldgrabbing will rule this game.

 

[Spellman]

No, l-canceling actually made it so the whole 'don't do it unless you know it can hit' became somewhat of a viable strategy, because characters could have some hope for protection after using them (fair to jab with Ganon, for example), which the strategy needs because Smash has too much freedom of movement to -know- you're going to hit, say, a dash-dancing Falcon with Ganon's aforementioned fair.

Without it it's completely bunk.

Also spamming d-airs with Link is a terrible strategy in any level of play.

Edit: Really the only way to insure a hit is in a combo of some sort. And since Ganon is molasses, he doesn't get those. (theoretically we don't actually know yet haven't extensively tested his moveset etc.)

Oh yeah, I know down airing Link is a lame strategy, I was just using it as the most obvious example of where the game wanted you to be punished for doing that move, and a sword getting stuck in the ground seemed to make the most sense.

It's not bunk, it's just you don't ariel when you're close to the ground. If you're going to colide with your opponent in mid-air, might as well use it. If you keep using that old strategy with these new control choices, of course you're going to get nowhere. Gotta get back to the basics. It's like learning four years of high school math and then doing a college placement test. Long division w/o a calculator?! Simple fractions?!

Remember that your opponent gets punished in the same ways for the same things, so both of you are going to be avoiding doing it, and will move onto other moves.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Pyras: Let me lay it to you straight man. I used to be a casual Virtua Fighter fan. I owned and played all of the iterations up through VF4. However, I only played against my brother and a few friends. We never took the game seriously but had fun enough ******* around in VS. for a few months. Now here's the thing: I am well aware that VF is an incredibly deep game. My friends and I were moderately good but compared to an expert player we didn't even scratch the surface of that game's potential.

Now here's the thing: if some expert player told me that an advanced technique I didn't use were pulled from VF5 and that this would be detrimental to the competitive scene, I wouldn't argue with him. I would trust that, being a highly skilled player with years of experience against other highly skilled players, he knows what he's talking about. And I CERTAINLY wouldn't laugh at him and say "VF5 isn't VF4 2.0 LOL it's a new game you gotta adapt!" If he told me that this removed technique was at the absolute core of the VF metagame (as l-canceling is in Smash) I would assume he knows what he's talking about.

I didn't laugh at him and use LOL's and such abrasive language, I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me.

The reason I am not agreeing with him is because as integral as L-Cancelling was to Melee, it is no longer integral to the game of Smash, which is NOW Brawl. I am not looking at the game in the light of how it should be played in 64 or Melee. Heavy's may not be able to L-Cancel or Wave-Dash, but neither can the speedy characters now, either. That same expert who is upset over VF5 would have been upset over VF4 for something that was changed that they didn't like, and so on, and so forth. Information has nothing to do with the way one reacts to "bad news".

Why, why WHY do Smash players assume that the experienced vets around here are ignorant?

I'm not saying he's ignorant, I'm not saying he's an idiot.

Clingy? Maybe.

I promise you, all if your counterpoints to Phyvo's post are misguided. He knows what he's talking about.

Considering that he's talking about a technique that is now officially dead.. Why should I believe this?

You just heard it here-- Ganon's best aerial is nearly THREE times as laggy as it was in Melee and we can do nothing about it.

Except rejoice that Ganondorf is heavier, hits harder, has a better up-b recovery move, and that characters overall are harder to kill unless you are a heavy character.

Then come up with new strategies that don't involve the strategies of the last game.

I'm being serious, why is the notion of coming up with strategies that don't involve getting yourself lagged so difficult? There are plenty of other ways to win, and aerial-on-aerial still WORKS.

This is a big letdown for some of us. We are not trying to be pessimistic babies-- we are just being realistic about the situation.

Eh? Who is we, specifically?

With thread titles like "Smash will SUCK without L-Cancelling", "Competitive players won't dominate", etc... I think the competitive player's argument needs better representation, because it's one-track complaints and competitive players swearing they won't even PLAY brawl because of this that speak louder than more reasonable words like yours.

 

[veil222]

L-cancelling is useless if air move lag time is actually... oh... whats that word.... the thing that melee didn't have... oh yeah, BALANCED.

 

[Phyvo]

They obviously can't always see your aerial coming. Even an advanced player can get hit by another advanced player's heavy character's aerial.

It's this part of the game where the smarter or quicker of reflex of the two gets the hit.

Even if they shield it, shields are much more unstable this time around, and if a player who uses a heavy character is actually jumping at his opponent with an aerial expecting to always hit then he is kidding himself.

But, you see, as long as they have the shield they can shield grab just about ANY attack. Let's see your options and do this play by play, shall we?

You take to the air and move towards them while they're standing still. Uou can't "fake out" and make as IF you were going to jump, but dash at them instead. They will either see you dash, or they will see you jump.

Once you're jumping towards them instead of dashing you have two options: Attacking or not attacking. They, having seen you jump, shield as you get close.

If you attack, their shield takes the hit and they grab you. If you don't, their shield doesn't take a hit and they grab you before you hit the ground.

Again, this isn't an invincible stratagy. There are projectiles, after all. however, you will notice that without a way to put *real* pressure on a shield with multiple attacks of some kind you have to resort to more campy tactics.

And, jeez, this doesn't even take into account if the opponent decides to move.

Even more interesting will be heavy players who get AROUND these weaknesses. It's NOT impossible, but you seem to think it is because you are still thinking of Melee's rules.. at least that is how it seems.

I have the upmost respect for players like Gimpy and Taj, who push characters people consider crappy to the limits. That said, weaknesses are weaknesses, and not everyone is Gimpy or Taj. Characters with weaknesses will lose more, that's what it means to be weak. It might not be impossible to win with a weak character, but saying that experience or some level of Taj awesomeness fixes the issue fails to deal with the actual problem.

Then it's a good thing NO attacks in the game take a minute to charge up, isn't it?

What exactly are you getting at with this? o.O

Incorrect. A skilled heavy player can still knock a skilled speed player into a position where he can't do anything BUT take the attack(such as, Fox using fair on Ike who uses his smash. Ike's extra reach with his sword gives him the edge against the player that relies on Fox's speedy aerial attacks. Or, he could counter).

Please explain to me how a fox stupidly f-smashing into Ike's f-smash or counter constitutes any sort of "forced" situation on the fox's part. Especially with Ike's f-smash the fox could use a quick attack instead and then dodge/roll Ike's attack. As for counter, well, if you miss with it you get punished severely, which is why other mindgames are prefered.

A Samus player who charges her beam in the vicinity of her opponent isn't a very skilled Samus player. :/ You're giving examples of unskilled scenarios.

That wasn't the point. My point was, just like anyone in their right mind can HIT that stupid Samus, any expert in their right mind can AVOID and COUNTER laggy attacks so long as their character isn't currently tumbling.

And you can't just ASSUME that L-cancel is going to make things worse for heavy characters when we haven't even PLAYED the game for a few months to know for sure.

You missed my chess analogy. The truth is that fast, unlaggy attacks are those queens and bishops I mentioned. If you remove it, what are you replacing it with? As far as we know, nothing really. Therefore, depth has been removed from the game. It's not a matter of assumption, it's a matter of logic.

No, the TRUTH is that heavy characters are ALWAYS harder to play, since the dawn of fighting games. That's why they are rarely used.

So, heavy characters suck for competition? Isn't that what I just said? They suck simply because you have to do a million times more work than anyone else to get a good result, and even then you can't know that somehow after a certain level of work the heavy character would become awesome.

That's pretty much the definition of sucking. If you want to see a character who takes a lot of work to play but you get something out of it, read Fox (going by both technical requirements and mind games).

I simply have one word to that..

"Chu-Dat"

Ice climbers may not be as fast as Fox, but they definitely aren't the "laggy heavyweights" we're talking about.

You're talking about pessimistically theoretical BS.

People complained about Melee when it first came out because of the strategies lost to 64.

This is just the cycle repeating itself. In a few months it won't even matter anymore, that's why I am taking this in stride.

As I said before, it's logic. If you take away Queens and Bishops without adding anything you lose depth, simple as that. We haven't seen anything that has been able to fill in for l-canceling to add the same level of depth yet.

Also, what reason do you have to believe this is cyclical? Melee arguably has more depth than SSB, and that would be because of advanced techniques, both those kept (like l-cancelling) and discovered later (like WDing). Without those I doubt Melee would be as competitive as it is today. So why just ASSUME Brawl will be just as awesome?

That's the issue? Wasn't it L-cancelling?

I said it was AKIN to. Perhaps you'll understand my chess analogy better.

At any rate, all characters have a handful of sucky moves and a handful of great moves. Heavy characters are meant for advanced players and FFA, and Brawl is helping to eliminate the heavy advantages that speed characters had against heavy characters to make them contenders.

Not completely. Some moves on some characters certainly have their ups and downs, but there are characters in Melee which don't have moves that are completely useless. They can still eclipsed by even better moves, but they aren't bad, they're still usable. On the other hand, some characters had a lot of moves which were pretty terrible. I mean, look at Pichu, half his moves damage himself.

FFAs are also generally not tournament material, because you can win an FFA even though you're not the most skilled player. It can all depend simply on random opportunities that occur to cherrypick someone else's KO or bad luck since everyone decided they hate your guts for some reason.

Doubles are different though.

Of course, in a few months if it turns out that you're right and heavy characters are worse than they were before then feel free to say "i told you so". The game is still going to be amazing.

I suppose all we can do now is wait and see.



Rather than posting a video of Ganondorf attacking immobile targets, you should post a video of him in an actual combat match for a better perspective and point to your argument.

I won't say that, because frankly it's annoying.

It will still be fun to play as a game for sure. This only affects the competitive scene.

We don't need to. We know enough about this game already to extrapolate how the attacks that he used would work against another player. Perhaps the only thing that would require proper testing would be how severely shields have been nerfed, but the theoretical framework still holds because we've based it on practical experience we already have.

 

[veil222]

Or, you know... you could short hop your least laggy areal through them so they don't grab you. Best they can do then is a tilt, and even then if it's a slow tilt you can spot dodge and roll. An expert would light up to the challenge of finding workaround to their favorite moves, not complain about it on a forum.

 

[Team Giza]

L-cancelling is useless if air move lag time is actually... oh... whats that word.... the thing that melee didn't have... oh yeah, BALANCED.

Too bad Brawl doesn't seem to have that balance.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Or, you know... you could short hop your least laggy areal through them so they don't grab you. Best they can do then is a tilt, and even then if it's a slow tilt you can spot dodge and roll. An expert would light up to the challenge of finding workaround to their favorite moves...

:O

Yes..! Fresh new strategies that don't require game-bending..!!

 

[WastingPenguins]

Pyras-- I understand the idea that things will work out somehow because of the changes to the engine. It is a somewhat nebulous hope in my mind because I don't see how that Ganon could even come close to being tournament viable. Keep in mind that I am close friends with one of the top tourney-level Ganon players in the country, so I know my Ganon better than most. Yes, I realize that this game is different than Melee in many ways, and I think things could work out well anyway. However, the fact remains that Brawl is still very much a Smash Bros. title and as such it is more than reasonable for expert players to draw conclusions on such broad game mechanics as shield grabbing and aerial lag.