Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[OoNoiRoO]

I've *almost* come to terms with no l-cancel.

What concerns me more is how the shield will work

Light shielding is gone which kinda blows, but apparently you have to press L or R ALL THE WAY DOWN in order to shield on a GC controller (and I assume that most of us are leaning toward using the GC controller as it is)

Quite an inconvenience if you ask me. I guess we'll know see later...

Dang dude, the shield isn't that big of a deal, you just press L or R lol. And pressing it ALL THE WAY isn't a big *** hassle at all...

 

[rblair]

Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

No. No it will not.

 

[Irow]

A better question about the shield, is: "How fast does it deteriorate?" or "Does everyone have their own shield that actually covers there entire body instead of that three sizes fit all crap from Melee?"

L-canceling was such a huge part of the game, but I'm not worried about Brawl. I think the major problem that people have is that, coming off of high level competitive Melee, they can't adjust well to the lower level that Brawl must start off of. It's similar to how many 64 players hated Melee at first because it wasn't as fast in the beginning. Except more people are hating now because there are a lot more people.

Brawl is much faster than Melee was in the beginning. I highly doubt that Brawl won't surpass Melee's current speed. Brawl will be as deep as Melee, I'm sure. L-cancel, wavedash, even dash-dance will all make way for a new generation of Advanced Smash play. If you're so afraid of the major changes in Brawl, wait and watch as Brawl's gameplay becomes infinitely more deep. For all we know, ground based play could play a major role in Brawl, much larger than in Melee.

Brawl will not suck without L-Canceling. Brawl will merely change style. More of the same things we've had since 64 is not necessarily the best for Brawl. You should eliminate your mindset of Melee gameplay, you're only restricting your ability to play Brawl.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Dang dude, the shield isn't that big of a deal, you just press L or R lol. And pressing it ALL THE WAY isn't a big *** hassle at all...

I usually light shield because I play G&W and his shield is terrible...also light shield sometimes has better uses than normal shield. You get pushed away more.

 

[Fletch]

Most of these people arguing that the loss of L-Canceling wont hurt smash at all probably can't or don't L/Z-Cancel in melee or ssb64.

^ This.

Don't mean to offend you guys, but everyone saying this game will be fine has a join date within the last 6 months, and more than likely you have not played Smash to the extent of everyone else on the boards (not saying everyone, but a majority), and don't know as much as some of those who are concerned what the removal of l-cancel will do to smash. You have to realize it's going to make the game MORE unbalanced, as heavies will NOT be viable as they will never be able to land a hit. Play Melee competitively without using l-cancel with "heavy" and "fast" characters to see the difference... the heavies don't stand a chance.

 

[SheerMadness]

Please don't compare ssb64 to brawl. Most of the advanced techniques in melee came from ssb64. Smash64 was a very technically advanced game unlike brawl.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

this is so god **** stupid, why cant you guys accept the fact that its out and to compensate that, they drastically reduce everybody aerial lag

 

[WastingPenguins]

this is so god **** stupid, why cant you guys accept the fact that its out and to compensate that, they drastically reduce everybody aerial lag

This is false false false. We have video evidence that heavy characters have lag as bad or even WORSE than in past Smash games.

 

[Dark Sonic]

this is so god **** stupid, why cant you guys accept the fact that its out and to compensate that, they drastically reduce everybody aerial lag

Watch a video of melee Renth or Chaddd as Gannondorf. Then watch a brawl video of Gannondorf. See the difference.

Do you guys know what the real problem is? The slow characters were made slower while the fast character were made the same speed as when they could L-cancel. Basically what they did, was make L-canceling automatic for anyone who's fast, then remove L-canceling altogether for anyone who's slow. They made the gap bigger than how it started.

 

[Irow]

Please don't compare ssb64 to brawl. Most of the advanced techniques in melee came from ssb64. Smash64 was a very technically advanced game unlike brawl.

You have no idea if Brawl will be technically advanced or not. Unlike you, have faith that the community will evolve this game, just like Melee. Don't scoff at the idea that Brawl can be more technical than either 64 or Melee. You are very much like the 2d fighter savant who disregarded the original Smash64 to be a game that took no skill to use, a kid game if you will.

 

[Dojo999]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Lol whoever posted this vid good ****.

This video is a PERFECT example of how some characters are going to be completely unplayable competetively without L-Canceling.

I feel sorry for any Ganondorf players.

That's not even a fight! It's break the targets, what does this prove?

 

[Garuda]

Can someone lock this topic, please? This whole thing is so mother****ing stupid. Listen up.

WHEN WE FIRST PLAYED SSB AND MELEE, WE HAD NO TECHNIQUES, BUT WE LOVED THEM ANYWAY. Now, first of all, what makes you think we won't find discover anything in this game? Second, lighten up a little, and fool around. The competitive "pros", oooooooooooh. Do you have to compensate by having techs, lacking actual skill? No? Otherwise, in this game, you will prove yourself even better.

 

[Takeshi245]

That's not even a fight! It's break the targets, what does this prove?

That Ganondorf's aerial lag is a lot and if L-cancelling were in there, it would be cut in half, making him faster.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

It proves that Ganon has hella landing lag on his aerials

 

[ChicoPunk13]

Brawl will not suck without L-Canceling. Brawl will merely change style. More of the same things we've had since 64 is not necessarily the best for Brawl. You should eliminate your mindset of Melee gameplay, you're only restricting your ability to play Brawl.

you know, after reading on here, i'm starting to think i was wrong in worrying brawl gameplay would lose a step. i hope you're right (and i think you are).

 

[Shai Hulud]

Hah, it's not like comboing is going to disappear, I can chain moves together all the time without any sort of advanced techniques. Now at least they will make more sense in the context of the game.

No you can't; you're terrible; semi-colons are awesome; and gtfo kthxbai.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Maybe faster characters are looked upon as better in the minds of some people. Sure, speed isn't everything, but it sure helps. Heavy characters should be slow, it's their nature. They are not supposed to be fast or quick, they're mainly supposed to be more powerful than speed characters. Sure speed can help you land in some quick hits, but compared to the power of heavier characters, a few hits and 1 powerful one can be equal. Your philosophy is basically "What good is power without the speed to use it." It's almost like saying "What good is speed when you have no power." Look at the characters you're using and you'll see why they are the way they are.

Question: Do you even play Smash?

Are we all talking about the same game here? There are NO good "slow" characters in Melee, despite all their alleged power (Ganon is decent, but only because his aerials are not slow, thanks to L-cancelling).

 

[legendofme]

The difference between l-canceling and teching is this: there are times to tech and times not to tech. Choosing not to tech, for example, can occasionally be a useful mindgame and stalling tactic when you're caught in a tech-chasing chain grab. Furthermore, you can choose to tech in place or techroll to either side depending on the situation. With teching, there are strategic choices you must make every step of the way.

Not so with l-canceling. You ALWAYS want to l-cancel, because there's no point in missing the l-cancel if you are technically capable of executing it. Essentially, l-canceling's existence forces Melee players to press an extra button or suffer the consequences in higher levels of play. While this creates technical difficulty, l-canceling does not add anything strategically that couldn't be achieved by simply making moves less laggy to begin with. If SSBM did not have l-canceling but every character's aerial attacks had half the lag, all the high level strategies would essentially be the same, minus one physical button press per aerial attack.

Therefore the loss of l-canceling is not inherently a bad thing. What could make l-canceling's absence problematic in Brawl is the fact that many of Brawl's characters have an obscene amount of aerial lag and apparently have no way to compensate for it. Ganon, for example, is almost sure to be punished if he attempts any kind of aerial approach and whiffs, so there is a lot of talk about how he will be rendered unplayable at higher levels.

But only time will tell, right? While Melee-style competitive play looks a little bleak at this point, we can't say anything for sure until the game has been out for a few years. People will inevitably discover a new set of advanced tactics unique to Brawl, and we'll have to see if these new techniques can compensate for the loss of old ones. I'll be glad if Brawl turns out to have as much depth as Melee, but until then I think the best we can do is enjoy the game for what it is.

Someone finally understands what I've been trying to say. A lot of those characters had their lag reduced regardless if you look closer at the attacks. Thank you sir. They need a rep system on these forums.

 

[Shai Hulud]

No more dash dancing

Please tell me you are joking.

 

[MookieRah]

Color me crazy, but from watching these vids of competitive players playing in another thread it seems like the lack of l-canceling won't be a big deal for most of the characters.

I heard a lot of complaints about CF being super laggy now, but his dair and knee seem to end much faster than before, and I saw how this guy used it to his advantage.

Check out this video:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=86qgmn6pP4s
At 4 minutes you can see him land a dair but it ends before hitting the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if you could tech chase with a jump like that and setup for something.

Just something to think about. If your move is done in the air you just suffer from landing lag, which is virtually nothing.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Super Metroid Video?

Mookie stop hitting that crack pipe

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Please tell me you are joking.

No lie. Dash dancing is gone. If you try to dash dance you will just run in the same direction repeatedly

 

[MookieRah]

CRAP, I linked the wrong video! My bad XD. I sent that Metroid vid to someone else. I'm going to repost what I said for fear of people skipping it over.

Reposted stuffz:
Color me crazy, but from watching these vids of competitive players playing in another thread it seems like the lack of l-canceling won't be a big deal for most of the characters.

I heard a lot of complaints about CF being super laggy now, but his dair and knee seem to end much faster than before, and I saw how this guy used it to his advantage.

Check out this video:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=86qgmn6pP4s
At 4 minutes you can see him land a dair but it ends before hitting the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if you could tech chase with a jump like that and setup for something.

Just something to think about. If your move is done in the air you just suffer from landing lag, which is virtually nothing.

 

[Finn Macool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9TM1A3s4QE&eurl=http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140560

watch the fight between the two links, they definatley fast fall (especially normal link several times) and im not sure but i reckon it looks like it cuts back on their lag just like people said it did at E for All

 

[Irow]

Actually, I just think Link has a lot less landing lag now. Link, however, seems to have a much deeper metagame value with his increased speed and gale boomerang.

 

[Sculelos]

^ This.

Don't mean to offend you guys, but everyone saying this game will be fine has a join date within the last 6 months, and more than likely you have not played Smash to the extent of everyone else on the boards (not saying everyone, but a majority), and don't know as much as some of those who are concerned what the removal of l-cancel will do to smash. You have to realize it's going to make the game MORE unbalanced, as heavies will NOT be viable as they will never be able to land a hit. Play Melee competitively without using l-cancel with "heavy" and "fast" characters to see the difference... the heavies don't stand a chance.

Eh, I've played Smash for the last 10 years WITH Z/L Canceling.

Melee WAS BALANCED FOR L-CANCELING. Brawl is not Melee.

Watch Gimpyfish absoulutely murder with Bowser and others with Ike or DeDeDe, all of those chacters do suprisingly well without it.

Don't bring up Melee as Brawl is a different game with different physics and balance.

 

[legendofme]

This is gonna be so fun I swear. Although I will be playing DMC4 more I will still have plenty of replayability with this game.

I think if it is true or comes on l-canceling not balancing the game I still think characters with reach like
Dedede, Olimar with Pikmin, and Marth are 60% more likely to be top tier.

Also I think Jigglypuff and Peach will also be very vicious in his game. Does anyone else agree with me on those 5 characters?

 

[Nintandy²]

Jigglypuff all the way haha, I love her.. well not in that way, but playable! L-Cancelling? Maybe I'm just not as over competitive or anything, but I've enjoyed this game with friends for years, and such a technique has never been brought up, nor necessary. I've had no reason to do such a thing, soo.. I honestly couldn't care less. Brawl looks simply stunning, and I love it the way it is. My verdict be that =D.

-- Andy

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

Brawl != Melee

/end thread

 

[Xanderous]

Game looks slow as ****.

 

[Nintandy²]

Game looks slow as ****.

I've not seen too many vids *avoiding most spoilers* but the game seems to run perfectly fine to me. Bleh, I suppose people are just so used to such techniques >.>. You'll get used to it. It's like when I played the next generation of Pokémon games and battle menus went so much quicker. When I returned to the originals for GB, it felt like it was ten times slower. You never really notice though once you get into it.

-- Andy

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

This topic's title should be changed to "Smash will Suck Without Landmaster"

 

[Doggalina]

^ This.

Don't mean to offend you guys, but everyone saying this game will be fine has a join date within the last 6 months, and more than likely you have not played Smash to the extent of everyone else on the boards (not saying everyone, but a majority), and don't know as much as some of those who are concerned what the removal of l-cancel will do to smash.

I've been here for 2 years, L-cancel regularly in Melee (I play Falcon, Pikachu, and Falco) and I think that Brawl will be fine. Actually, it's shaping up to be just as deep as Melee.

EDIT:

This topic's title should be changed to "Smash will Suck Without Landmaster"

People need to shut up about the Landmaster. Go watch a video of Wolf being played and tell me he's a Fox clone.

 

[IGN Forums]

it will suck!!!!

 

[xelad1]

I've been here for 2 years, L-cancel regularly in Melee (I play Falcon, Pikachu, and Falco) and I think that Brawl will be fine. Actually, it's shaping up to be just as deep as Melee.

EDIT:

People need to shut up about the Landmaster. Go watch a video of Wolf being played and tell me he's a Fox clone.

while I can say that ultimately brawl will end up being fun so far there is no evidence showing that it is in any way close to as deep as melee was... I don't know where you get that idea. It will probably take about a year to start deepending the game play and 2 years to fully develop the metagame (basing this on the fact that it took about 2-3 for melee and brawl has a whole new generation of more interested players thanks to melee who will actually look for exploits and more advanced ways of playing).

 

[3GOD]

L-canceling was such a huge part of the game, but I'm not worried about Brawl. I think the major problem that people have is that, coming off of high level competitive Melee, they can't adjust well to the lower level that Brawl must start off of. It's similar to how many 64 players hated Melee at first because it wasn't as fast in the beginning. Except more people are hating now because there are a lot more people.

Brawl is much faster than Melee was in the beginning. I highly doubt that Brawl won't surpass Melee's current speed. Brawl will be as deep as Melee, I'm sure. L-cancel, wavedash, even dash-dance will all make way for a new generation of Advanced Smash play. If you're so afraid of the major changes in Brawl, wait and watch as Brawl's gameplay becomes infinitely more deep. For all we know, ground based play could play a major role in Brawl, much larger than in Melee.

Brawl will not suck without L-Canceling. Brawl will merely change style. More of the same things we've had since 64 is not necessarily the best for Brawl. You should eliminate your mindset of Melee gameplay, you're only restricting your ability to play Brawl.

I'm still skeptical with the lack of L-Canceling, but your post somehow gives me a little hope for the future of Brawl. The style of play may end up being VERY different from Melee, but maybe it will still be good and have some depth.

One question that REALLY REALLY worries me though is the rumor that Dash Dancing is gone. It's probably the best (or tied for best with L-canceling) "advanced technique" in Melee.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

People need to shut up about the Landmaster. Go watch a video of Wolf being played and tell me he's a Fox clone.

I know they aren't clones. I just can't help but to joke about having 3 Landmasters

 

[MookieRah]

Everyone skipped over my post, twice.

We will be fine without l-canceling. The new "style" of l-canceling will simply be the timing of your aerials so that you land immediately after the animation is over. Pretty much all the aerials in the game are faster than in melee, and because of people being floatier it makes this easier to do. In one of the vids I saw of a somewhat decent player playing a Falcon player techchased with a dair and the animation was over before landing. That really isn't a drastic change from having to l-cancel a dair as you would in melee.

 

[5@/\/\U5]

Everyone skipped over my post, twice.

We will be fine without l-canceling. The new "style" of l-canceling will simply be the timing of your aerials so that you land immediately after the animation is over. Pretty much all the aerials in the game are faster than in melee, and because of people being floatier it makes this easier to do. In one of the vids I saw of a somewhat decent player playing a Falcon player techchased with a dair and the animation was over before landing. That really isn't a drastic change from having to l-cancel a dair as you would in melee.

this post is why smashboards is gold. Level-headed, thought-out, and concise opinion that helps to inform and move the game in question forward in the right direction

 

[Card]

Everyone skipped over my post, twice.

We will be fine without l-canceling. The new "style" of l-canceling will simply be the timing of your aerials so that you land immediately after the animation is over. Pretty much all the aerials in the game are faster than in melee, and because of people being floatier it makes this easier to do. In one of the vids I saw of a somewhat decent player playing a Falcon player techchased with a dair and the animation was over before landing. That really isn't a drastic change from having to l-cancel a dair as you would in melee.

I read your post

I just didn't bother posting, because this thread is filled with so many baseless accusations that it makes my head spin. There are so many comments on how Brawl is going to suck based off of 1 day's worth of Impressions for a game almost every person here posting has not played AND every person who posted wholeheartedly expects this to be Melee 2.0.


Anyways I have a question for you; Is this new "style" of L-cancelling confirmed? Or is this an valid assumption you are making based off the recent videos all over? (EDIT: My impression of your post was the latter)