SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[phi1ny3]

For rediscussion, the next character is sna-
Lucario: Hey, you forgot something.
?
Lucario: *Points to chart*

That's right, and I technically never said we were rediscussing Snake and MK.
aka:

Lucario is our last MU for discussion, as we have to cover ALL the MUs that you will encounter.

GO!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh god dittos. It's a trap!

Both Lucario's won't do much in terms of killing until they both hit their good aura boost. Trying to figure out when stuff kills is just as much of a mind screw as figuring out how to space against someone who has the exact range on everything you have.

Trying to camp with BaS is a terrible idea, it don't get either player anywhere unless one person has an aura boost, which means they are behind in % so they should be trying to approach more. Fully charged aura spheres will be more useful, they will eat up any BaS and stop opposing Aura spheres, unless someone has a boost on their side. So if your behind Fully charged Aura spheres will beat out the person in the lead.

Dair will beat out any aerial from above, on the ground Lucario can Usmash Dair to outrange it.

This is one MU where Double team has serious usage. You can punish other Lucario's Fsmash's with it, and it can kill. See where this is going? You need to make Fsmash unpredictable, as usual. Normally Double team sucks, but in this case there is frame advantage on Lucario's side.

Edgeguarding is pretty much who can space and use Bair better. Lucario doesn't really send people downward momentumwise, Lucario is also floaty so he can safely fall towards the stage, if the situation arises where they do fall below stage level, dair can be a good punishing tool, edge hogging works as a good way to force Lucario to land on the stage or even predict his movement so you can use an aerial to knock him back again.

Stage wise, well itdepends on playstyle. Hard to really describe.

My ratio, LoL:Dittos

 

[phi1ny3]

Both of them can gimp each other pretty well with strong offstage pressure with fair stuff. If the other lucario has lost his second jump, it's pretty lol

 

[RT]

Lucario dittos!

It's impossible to write a tell-all matchup guide, because all Lucarios play differently. This guide will give you some general tips, but your experience WILL vary.

Brief summary of Aura: When Lucario takes damage, he becomes stronger. His moves do more damage and have more knockback. This means you want to kill him as soon as possible. However, if Lucario is behind in terms of stocks, he also gains a small Aura boost. All of this should be kept in mind during a match. It's always possible to reverse three stock your opponent during a match, because Lucario is the ultimate comeback character. And while the "stale moves effect" does still affect Lucario, Aura can slightly buff staled moves. For something very funny/scary, try having a Lucario throw a fully charged Aura Sphere at max percent down two stocks. A beast of a projectile that is bigger than almost every character in the game. Spotdodging it suddenly got a whole lot harder...

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Jab: A quick move that can be used to interrupt and can lead into many other options if canceled.
-Ftilt: A multihitting move that be used for shield pressure and for spacing. Mix it up with fsmash to reduce your chances of being punished. The last hitbox has the most knockback.
-Utilt: Think Marth's Utilt, but reversed. It's Lucario's fastest ground move (even beating out jab), so if you're in a bind, you can try using it. However, if you miss, be prepared to be punished. And remember that the move starts BEHIND him.
-Fsmash: This is one of Lucario's main killing moves. It has a lot of range including a small amount behind him, and can cancel into itself fairly quick. A good spacing and punishing tool. It has a tipper sweetspot. Some Lucario spam it, some Lucario's don't.
-Dsmash: This move hits on both sides of Lucario, but it has a fair amount of starting and ending lag. Good for punishing rolls, this move is not really used that much.
-Usmash: A very good anti-air move that lasts FOREVER. However, the longer it is out, the weaker it is, so think of it like a grounded sex kick. Hitbox extends slightly behind Lucario, which makes some grab attempts futile.
-Fair: This is Lucario's most used approach move and for good reason! It lasts quite a while, can combo into itself, can combo into nair, decent for keeping people of the stage. The only negative is that it doesn't do a whole lot of damage, even at max Aura. Can't have it all...
-Nair: A good aerial that covers both sides of Lucario during upon execution. Lasts a pretty long time, but like all sex kicks, gets weaker the longer it is out. It has a lot of ending lag in the air, but it can be autocanceled.
-Bair: This move is probably one of the more underused aerials. It has good knockback during the initial frames it is out, lingers for quite a while, and a good edgeguard move.
-Uair: A very unusual move in terms of properties. Once again, it has more knockback during initial frames. Lucario's whole body is a hitbox, but the strongest is at the top.
-Dair: This aerial is Lucario's only multihitting aerial move. First hit does minimal knockback and damage while the second hit is what you want. It has a unique property that stalls Lucario in that air, except out of shield and hitstun.
-Aura Sphere: One of Lucario's main kill moves. Think of it closer to the Samus' Charge Shot in Melee. When uncharged, the AS moves in a small zigzag motion. When fully charged, it can be a big ball of DEATH. This move's size scales with Aura. You can roll, spotdodge, shield, and grab out of the charge animation.
-Force Palm: A unique move with two separate properties. From a distance, this has quite a bit of startup and ending lag. It can trip, but the risk of not hitting far outweighs the benefits. Up close, the move acts as a command grab and becomes a somewhat good killing move at higher percents. At low percents, it can be used to chaingrab certain characters, but it be warned that characters can mash out.
-Double Team: Don't use it. Seriously, don't. If you trigger an opponent's DT, hold the shield button and you'll block the counterattack 95% of the time. If whiffed, choose whatever move to punish it.
-Extreme Speed: This is Lucario's main recovery move. This move has no hitbox, so you can potentially edgeguard a Lucario by just grabbing the edge. However, this move has some special properties. The path can be controlled by the player's inputs, so it's possible to curve this move. The absolute max is a half circle, but I could be wrong. Anyways, wallclings can be done immediately out of it.
-Fthrow: Lucario's best throw and a potential killing throw at high percents with Aura.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-You're playing against yourself, so there are no distinct advantages nor are there any moves that can be used to counter yourself. You have the same moves at your disposal as your opponent.
-This match really comes down to good spacing and how smart your are. You know what Lucario's strengths and weaknesses are. Use them wisely.
-LEARN TO DI. You want to keep your Aura buffs as long as possible. Lucario's can't kill very well until he has Aura. It's very possible, if not likely, that you will live to the 170-180% if you kill your opponent first.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-You're playing against yourself so no.
-Being down in stocks in this matchup doesn't really matter because of the Aura affect. Expect the match to quickly shift from your favor to your opponent's and vice versa.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Once again, you're playing against yourself, so you should have a general idea of how to space your moves. If you don't, you will learn very fast!
-Since Lucario has no protection during Extreme Speed, he can be forced to recover onto the stage if there is no place to wallcling. Force them onto the stage and punish accordingly.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Pick whatever stages you feel most comfortable.

Matchup is 100:0 Lucario. Obviously 50:50. Lucario dittos don't mean anything.

 

[culexus・wau]

This Match-up is almost always going to be close.

If you mess-up it could change the tide of the match at any time.

If you want to be tricky Uptilt can be a good killer sometimes if saved.

oh and don't roll backwards if they have a FC Aura Sphere, this mistake has cost me a stock once <<

 

[tedward2000]

So the fight will go like this.

Lets say that both lucarios have one attack, that does 1 damage, and does more damage based on how much damage they have taken.

Lucario red vs Lucario blue

Red deals 1 damage to blue (Red 0%, Blue 1%)

Blue deals 2 damage to Red (Red 2%, Blue 1%)

Red deals 3 damage to Blue (Red 2%, Blue 4%)

Blue deals 5 to Red.... And so on. (Red 7%, Blue....)

Basically whichever lucario has more damage, he's going to do more damage, and vice versa. What makes this match so close (sometimes) is that whomever is in power switches back and forth.

This all boils down to luck, skill and stupidity. Luckily making lucario doubles skillful and stupid.
-t2

 

[Fizzle]

I wouldn't call them skillful at all. Whoever gets the first kill wins...

 

[iRJi]

Lol, I will keep myself out of this one. Just to let everyone know, when the Lucario ditto is up, we WILL do the rediscussion of characters that are needed. I will tell you the characters later however. Have fun everyone.

 

[phi1ny3]

I wouldn't call them skillful at all. Whoever gets the first kill wins...

He was talking about Lucario doubles, I'm sure we can all reach the same consensus on the lucario ditto matchup tho lol.
As a good friend of mine put it,
"Whenever a Lucario ditto match occurs, somewhere in the world, a Toon Link dies".
Oh yeah, does anyone else notice that the SWF text got bigger, or is it just me?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He was talking about Lucario doubles, I'm sure we can all reach the same consensus on the lucario ditto matchup tho lol.
As a good friend of mine put it,
"Whenever a Lucario ditto match occurs, somewhere in the world, a Toon Link dies".
Oh yeah, does anyone else notice that the SWF text got bigger, or is it just me?

I though ti was just my laptop.

I can't think of a Lucario ditto I lost in the past year, since I never see other Lucario's in the midwest.

Aura makes this MU really funny. You may have a % lead, but your just making yourself closer to kill range. Forget the % just kill the other Lucarios. >:D

 

[Browny]

Whats to discuss...?

I mean really. you know what to look out for, you know the spacing on all the enemies attacks :/

 

[Aurasmash14]

we technically cant do anything special on another lucario :/

spacing is near useless here since we all have the same moves, we gimp the same, we kill the same, just dont be stupid and hope you'll get a gimp, then keep the lead until the announcer yells GAME!

 

[iRJi]

Whats to discuss...?

I mean really. you know what to look out for, you know the spacing on all the enemies attacks :/

He has a point. Lol. I find this MU to be gay, but in the end it is going to be a 50:50, and everything you have the opponent has too. Let's actually save our selves the trouble, and call it a day with this one xD.

Edit: Also I have found another blank version of the MU chart. The old one that we had anyway, so I am going to redo the chart again. The one we had now isn't eye appealing, and it was a temp anyway until I found this template again.

 

[Trela]

I LOVE Lu Lu Dittos.

I have NO idea why everyone hates them

 

[Zucco]

I LOVE Lu Lu Dittos.

I have NO idea why everyone hates them

what ever happened to your travel plan thread?

Lucario dittos are lame unless they are friendlies. Then I find them fun.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think dittos are funny and stupid at the same time.

 

[Melomaniacal]

This match up is easy. All you have to do is out space your opponent.

100:0 in Lucario's favor. Lucario will never lose.

 

[RT]

Lucario dittos are lame unless they are friendlies. Then I find them fun.

^This x 1000.

 

[Zucco]

I cant fight this guy to save my life. mad scary!

 

[Maniclysane]

Sorry, I forgot I was in a matchup discussion on another character board. This tends to happen to me a lot...

If anyone still wants to discuss Jigglypuff some more I'm willing to, but it looks like you guys are moving on to other characters. Sorry for leaving people hanging. D:

 

[iRJi]

Congratulations

We have finished all the Matchups for Lucario. Now it is time to go back, and do past Matchups that we have to go over. While Phil will be doing exports for these next few Matchups we will be talking about, I will be choosing the characters that we will be redicussing. This is not up to an option, we are just going to go over past MU's that are a bit outdated. This time around, please try to provide a lot of Information so we can gather as much accurate info as we can.

Our first Throwback MU will be: Olimar


Go.

 

[phi1ny3]

And yes, I put him up to that, because I'm mega lazy at changing the MU subject.
So fire away at Oli guys.

 

[iRJi]

Since I am already here, i will start =D. This is from way back that I happen to post, that is still really accurate.

Past Statements from me about the MU.

Yay I get to post for this one. From me playing black walts a lot in tornament and in a sh*t ton of friendlies I can safely say this match up is in Olimars favor 55:45.

Olimar is a small character with alot of walling potential. Very underrated if you want to put it that way. He fights mainly with a vertical and horizontal attacking system that is very hard to be beat by any other character ingame. Lucario's attacks also hit in a vertical and horizontal motion but Olimar has the advantage due to his attacking speed and range. Lucario has a difficult time hitting the blind spot of Olimar, which is at a 45 degree angle. On the floor Olimar has an advantage over Lucario. When Lucario is stuck by one of Olimars pikman he can not shoot an Aura Spear until the pikman is released making it nearly slim to camp him as one of Lucario's options, But in return Lucario can Double Team as much as he wants until the pikman vanishes.

To win this match Lucario has to apply pressure and keep a very high momentum base gameplay. If he can do that then we can knock him off the map pretty quickly, and you know what happens when Olimar is off the map... Gimp City.

It is a 55:45 because of Olimars ability to wall like a monster.

______________________________________________________________________________

Now with that being said from teh past, here is a short, new piece of statements.

This MU is 60:40 Oli's Favor.

Lets all be honest, the current number is bogus. It's a solid 60:40, and also I believe one of our hardest MU's. Possibly the 2nd or 3rd. Lucario attacks with the same pattern as Oli does, meaning that he is a linear character. He attacks vertical, and horizontal attacks, with the exception of Fair which is his 45 degree angle attack. He pretty much out plays Lucario in a lot of sections that makes Lucario where he is now. Not to mention he can cancel AS at any time he wants. He has a better semi-projectile, Good killing power, and absurd range.

As for his weaknesses as a character, he has plenty. His throwing his Pikmin enables us to approach a bit easier if we pass them, and his Pivot grab is also exploitable because he has no Super Armor Frame. His pikmin are wonky in priority as well. Overall however, this MU is hard...

I posted my old post from WAY back because what it says is still true. It also gives good insight on Oli's attacks.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

What I'd really think would be useful is if we compared frame data and other findings. For the rediscussions we could be taking these much more seriously and priority can be a very important factor in all of this. (I can't seem to find Oli's frame data in detail :/)

I think I once outprioritized a Purple Pikmin usmash with Luc's FAir and that just didn't make sense to me...

 

[culexus・wau]

simple:
Lose by: Letting Olimar camp you, jumping into pivot grab, letting Olimar Land Upsmash, let Olimar pick purples, using Fsmash on a grounded Olimar.

Win by: Getting close, Grabbing, usage of tilts, edge guarding.

pew pew pew

More Words Version:

its just a matter of getting inside really, Olimar's grab reaches far but I think it comes out on like frame 11, so really its a matter of just getting close and keeping olimar in the air,

avoid approaching if he has a purple coming up in the line-up, evil evil evil purples. <_< Fair will swat out nonpurples and nair will beat them off you if they latch on.

Grabs are ESSENTIAL, They Get Olimar in the air or offstage, both places he does not want to be.

You might also want to throw a BAS once it awhile, sometimes it goes under the pikmin tosses and hits olimar and it'll also get them out of the comfort that you'll never fire projectiles back at them.

and on another note: Pikmin = Teletubbies. The Baby Sun = Olimar. tru fax.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I used to think this was closer to even.

Then I started to play Olimar's more and realized I was really stupid when I talked about this last time.

 

[Kitamerby]

Phil, Im really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but STAUFFY IS THE BEST PLAYER AT LUCARIO DITTOS OF ALL TIME. OF ALL. TIME.

I'd like to make one last note about Lucario dittos.

Camp as hard as you possibly can. The person who camps the hardest will always win. AKA, lots of spaced bairs, fsmashes, aura spheres, and etc.

(Stauffy, you're a jerk. A good jerk who taught me that matchup, but a jerk nonetheless. )

Also make sure spectators don't have their headphones too loud. (Inside joke. You know who you are.)


...Holy **** Phil. Why do you still have that picture? Arrrrrgh, the memories.


Also, all pikmin have no priority. You can swat them away with anything so long as Olimar isn't currently performing either a grab or Up B. Sadly, though, Olimar himself does not suffer hitlag iirc, so he will generally recover before you and be able to smack you with a smash all over again and probably kill you.


Also, I've heard recommendations about tossing Olimar upwards with u/dthrow and shieldgrabbing his landing. I haven't been able to try it myself, but it seems like it'd work pretty darn well. Can't think of anything he could do to stop it other than to try to hope for the edge, which is risky for obvious reasons.

I've also heard reports that it works best if you don't consider his pikmin at all when attacking and just power through them and go straight for the source instead of fearing that extra 10%. It makes sense, though. People usually are too hesitant because they're so scared of taking that extra damage. We need to remember that it's never about how much damage you can take as long as you can avoid the kill moves themselves.


Oh, and Oli can true combo Nair into Usmash. Gay as hell.

 

[HyperEnergy]

The goal when fighting Olimar should be getting him away from the middle of the stage. In other words, push him to the edge carefully and cautiously. Olimar becomes useless at the edge because he loses a big portion of his options.

In the middle of the stage you will be in range of Olimar's pikmin toss, he can pivot grab and he can retaliate with grab, usmash, dsmash or fsmash (among other things) if you hit his shield. On the edge he has no space to do a pivot grab (and pivot grab is the biggest problem for Lucario imo), he cannot throw his pikmin all the way accross the stage (except whites) and if you push him back far enough, he will be pushed off the stage if you hit him in his shield.

To avoid pivot grabs you could try wavebounced aura sphere. Bait them and avoid them while continuously pushing him back. You can probably even broversal and punish him for pivot grabbing. Just remember that Olimars won't like to be pushed back and may try to gain ground if they feel pressured. In other words, beware the running usmash.

Meh, I need to play another good Olimar the next chance I get since I have so many things I haven't tried out yet. Olimar is probably our second hardest MU behind Snake. 60:40 Olimar for me.

 

[iRJi]

The goal when fighting Olimar should be getting him away from the middle of the stage. In other words, push him to the edge carefully and cautiously. Olimar becomes useless at the edge because he loses a big portion of his options.

In the middle of the stage you will be in range of Olimar's pikmin toss, he can pivot grab and he can retaliate with grab, usmash, dsmash or fsmash (among other things) if you hit his shield. On the edge he has no space to do a pivot grab (and pivot grab is the biggest problem for Lucario imo), he cannot throw his pikmin all the way accross the stage (except whites) and if you push him back far enough, he will be pushed off the stage if you hit him in his shield.

To avoid pivot grabs you could try wavebounced aura sphere. Bait them and avoid them while continuously pushing him back. You can probably even broversal and punish him for pivot grabbing. Just remember that Olimars won't like to be pushed back and may try to gain ground if they feel pressured. In other words, beware the running usmash.

Meh, I need to play another good Olimar the next chance I get since I have so many things I haven't tried out yet. Olimar is probably our second hardest MU behind Snake. 60:40 Olimar for me.

Phil, Im really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but STAUFFY IS THE BEST PLAYER AT LUCARIO DITTOS OF ALL TIME. OF ALL. TIME.

I'd like to make one last note about Lucario dittos.

Camp as hard as you possibly can. The person who camps the hardest will always win. AKA, lots of spaced bairs, fsmashes, aura spheres, and etc.

(Stauffy, you're a jerk. A good jerk who taught me that matchup, but a jerk nonetheless. )

Also make sure spectators don't have their headphones too loud. (Inside joke. You know who you are.)


...Holy **** Phil. Why do you still have that picture? Arrrrrgh, the memories.


Also, all pikmin have no priority. You can swat them away with anything so long as Olimar isn't currently performing either a grab or Up B. Sadly, though, Olimar himself does not suffer hitlag iirc, so he will generally recover before you and be able to smack you with a smash all over again and probably kill you.


Also, I've heard recommendations about tossing Olimar upwards with u/dthrow and shieldgrabbing his landing. I haven't been able to try it myself, but it seems like it'd work pretty darn well. Can't think of anything he could do to stop it other than to try to hope for the edge, which is risky for obvious reasons.

I've also heard reports that it works best if you don't consider his pikmin at all when attacking and just power through them and go straight for the source instead of fearing that extra 10%. It makes sense, though. People usually are too hesitant because they're so scared of taking that extra damage. We need to remember that it's never about how much damage you can take as long as you can avoid the kill moves themselves.


Oh, and Oli can true combo Nair into Usmash. Gay as hell.

Both sets of information is true, ESP. yours HyperEnergy. Although it is common to actually obtain the middle of the stage against you opponent, for this matchup it is more vital. It's like playing chess. You have to obtain and control the middle of the board, in order to apply proper pressure to you opponent. The same goes for this.

PS: Also add the MU number while you add your post. It is ok if you change during time, it just makes it easier to see how people are feeling how the MU is at the current time you are posting what you are saying.

Edit: When we get to snake, I am going to go really hard on that Mu to describe how it is near even XD. But that is for later, stay on oli, and disreguard this last segment.

 

[phi1ny3]

If smash is like chess, DMG plays my favorite black response: French Defense. It's best when the opponent is behind in material, since at highest level black is aiming for a draw.
"I have never in my life played the French Defense, which is the dullest of all openings".
~William Steinitz, International Champion
I think that Olimar has gotten slightly more understandable in metagame, but at the same time, it's gotten harder for us
Keep him in the air obv, and bait out the whistle near the edge before you use a quick kill move, since you want him offstage obviously.
I would say also the following:
Almost never fsmash if he's grounded.
Careful of using dair on him too, he has better anti air options than some chars above him tier-wise, utilt is good range wise and usmash will kill you early.
For approaching, I would be sneaky, mixup your aerials and make sure you don't land predictably, get inside with crossups and bait the grab and punish with your own.
Also make sure you don't underestimate him offstage, he can DJ -> uair to get you off from ledgehogging.
40:60 imo, although it's kinda stage dependent, Oli has quite a few stages that can mess him up. Despite the chances of yellow and purple going up, I'd recommend Frigate as a possible option. RC is also pretty nasty for Oli, much less icky for us.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah frigate is definitely, by far, the best stage option you have against Olimar. Purples against lucario ARE helpful for us in the matchup, but yellows (regardless of being one of, if not, our best pikmin) are not as amazing in this matchup as they are in others. Not to mention, it's an extremely closed in area where we get cornered easily. Lucario works really well at gimping Olimar, and the right side you'll be able to take full advantage of against us.

That said, this will be banned against you by any smart Olimar lol.

So second choices. RC isn't a good idea, it's really not that terrible for Olimar, ESPECIALLY in this matchup (frigate isn't completely game breakingly bad for us either, but in this matchup it is), and Japes, another of Olimar's "bad" stages is ALSO good for us in this matchup (i'll explain why if asked, but it's a really long and dumb explanation >.>)

Battlefield is a good choice, and is usually (or should be) our first strike for the starter. How do you all do on Brinstar? It's one of Olimar's "sort of" bad stages, or at least it is in a lot of matchups. I'm having trouble of thinking of anything else, to be honest.

As for what to ban against us, considering you live in a conservative region (i don't), your main ban would probably be Halberd. However, most Olimar's have extremely different tastes in stage selection. Fino will take you to Rainbow Cruise, along with most other characters. I'll almost all of the time take a Lucario to Delfino, since three phases of the stage (one of which being extremely common, the main platform) provide an increase in purples. The shallow water sections increase blues to almost twice as much (which i consider to be the second best pikmin for the matchup), and the shapes of the sections such as the beach (which also increase purples, reds, and yellows), the section with stairs, and the section with the red awning, give us ways to force you to come at us in awkward angles, which Olimar is extremely good at punishing. The shine gate and roof top as well, to an extent, but not nearly as much. However, very few Olimar's love delfino as much as I do, so you probaby won't end up being taken there, and I mostly just love talking about how much I love the stage lol.

Also, it was stated a while ago that all of Olimar's attack have no priority except for Pikmin Chain, but it should also be noted that up air (especially yellow) will go through just about everything. If well spaced, even your down air, which goes through everything else we have (sans pikmin chain).

And yes. Don't worry about pikmin on you. Watch our line for purples and be ready to shield when they come up. It's good for Olimar to take advantage of rushing opponents by hitting them with something they don't expect to be hit with. A solid projectile. And when someone barges in expecting on latching pikmin to hit them, a solid projectile can not only knock them off balance and set them up for a follow up, but the pikmin they "weren't caring about" are now on them, hitting them while they're vulnerable. So yes, watch for purples. Not enough people do this. Also, whites as well, but watch for them AFTER they've latched onto you. Get them off fast though, and don't try to barge in while one's on, or you'll be taking 6 damage every thirty frames (undiminished).

Focus everything you can on getting us to the ledge. That's almost the only way Lucario can legitimately kill Olimar. At least reliably. We have absoutely no reason to approach. When you get us to the ledge, note what paths we're able to take to get around you, or to force you out of our space. your tilts and fair stop most of these, as well as your grab.

Speaking of your grab, if we're recovering, and you grab us before we hit the stage (even if we're not hanging over the ledge) we do not get our jump back (you all may already know this, i don't know if it's only the case with olimar or not). This is a huge burden for Olimar, because Olimar without a second jump is pretty much dead.

But for the most part, most of the things that have been said so far have been correct.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Japes, another of Olimar's "bad" stages is ALSO good for us in this matchup (i'll explain why if asked, but it's a really long and dumb explanation >.>)

I would love to hear this.

 

[culexus・wau]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"
But for the most part, most of the things that have been said so far have been correct.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Mind pointing out whats wrong?

I'm going to redo my post my post since I posted that last one on my phone lol </3

[B][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]What we're going to need Grounded Olimar/AKA approaching.[/COLOR][/B]:

Fair: Swats Away pikmin, while approaching, our best option for edgeguarding.
Jump afterwards if he's running away or else you'll get pivot grabbed <_<.

Dair: useful if he sidesteps while under pressure or shield pressure, he can Whistle -> upsmash you so beware.

Autocanceled and FF'd Nair: You'll be using the latter more but keep in mind the minuscule lag on the other one could throw olimar off once or twice.

Empty hop: jump afterwards if he's running away.

Run into sidesteps: since they ussually answer most things with a grab.... just don't sidestep too early though ._.

BAS: useful everyonce in awhile for going under pikmin throws if he jumps, doesn't always go under but keeps olimar on his toes.

Once Your Close:
Grab: GRAB GRAB GRAB GRAB GRAB, well to to the point of spamming it blatant but Throws are very good in this match-up, they get him in the air or offstage, both places that olimar does not like at all.

Jabs: slower then olimar's jab so be careful, can lead into grabs, or a full jab combo to get him in the air.

Ftilt: one frame slower then the grab so be careful, but leads into good stuff.

Uptilt: gets him in the air. sets up into grabs or more uptilts at low percentages.

Once He's in the air:
Fair: Airstrings, rising fair beats out most of what he can do and if he Whistles We get a free hit sometimes

UpAir: when it comes the time where fair cannot lead into any follow-ups, UpAir can be used in place of fair somewhat, kills at that point, and if he ADs/Whistles we can follow-up with more responses [not nearly as well as fair however]. can also be used earlier on if you just want him to go up a bit.

Bair: hits him out of whiffed ADs/Whistles I guess. use sparingly.

Dair: use on whistle or Airdodges, hit on earlier % and sparingly at higher.

Nair: use on hit or whistle.

When Edgeguarding:

Forward Air and Dair? I'm not too keen on how to edgeguard olimar but I do know that he recovers from below and uses Rising UpAir to UpB, which I have never retaliated against <_<

Recovery:

Recover High as usual, when forced to recover low [which isn't too uncommon, dsmash can send you there] BEWARE of jumping/landing into Dsmash, doesn't happen too often but often grants an edgehog for Olimar, it can't hit us out of ES though. Don't land into Upsmash either obviously lol.

(i'll explain why if asked, but it's a really long and dumb explanation >.>)

Please elaborate, we have time.

I still need to learn this match-up more , STAUFFY POST MORE ****IT </3

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Enough about Stauffy, he's a scrub.

Buuut, I did promise Phil some late info for Lucas and Yoshi, sooo.

Lucas, Lucci can beat him out in the air in just about any situation. The air is your friend. On the ground he has a 2 frame jab which is pretty irritating to Lucci's sloooooow ground game. He also has a rather laggy grab, so that jab is mostly what you have to worry about when you're on the offensive. PK fire is there too, mostly to punish you for committing to an attack. If he gets PK Fire-happy just stay on the ground a bit and running powershield it until you can punish him for it or he's forced to the edge.

He has a few unorthodox ways of KOing, which shouldn't work as long as you're familiar with them. Bair can spike, so obviously watch for that if he jumps out facing away as you recover. Dair sets up for a jab lock to fsmash, unless you just DI or tech it. Or just avoid dair like heck once you've got some damage on you, it's not the hardest move in the world to not get hit by. Usmash can be a nasty surprise if you get too happy jumping around, but too slow to hit without a pretty big slip up, not to mention it's among the most unsafe on whiff moves in the game. Dsmash, hits through platforms and ***** spotdodges... bthrow and dthrow can kill at higher %s, the former especially if you're not expecting it and DI bad... and then we have fsmash, a nice move with good qualities all around, but would benefit greatly from being just a little bit faster.
All that seems impressive on paper, but it's also all situational and thus it's not all that hard to avoid being killed by Lucas.

Also I really like the use of bair for gimping Lucas. While he covers a lot of distance (thus fair isn't as good for this purpose) his recovery isn't as good at covering him from attack. As long as you predict when he's going to do what it's all too easy to just smack him out of it. Also, Aura Sphere is usually not worth the risk of healing Lucas for often absurd amounts.
Remember, the air is your friend.

Yoshi, likewise tends to get just plain out-fought in the air, although he CAN land an uair through your dair, so it's risky to attempt that if you're high enough in damage and/or altitude that it would kill you. He also has VERY good aerial mobility, although this is more of an issue if you're on the defensive. He can easily seem like he's going to land in grabbing range, then zip behind you and fsmash. Utilt is a pretty good way of dealing with this, just know what your OOS options are and when you can use them, Yoshi can avoid them in situations where practically any other character wouldn't be able to. Another thing that may take you by surprise is his fast, low-cooldown lag, although not too much of a threat (I think it does 6%)

Yoshi can't rely on his shield like a normal character, so expect to see him using other tools to get around this limitation: He has a very good spotdodge, a good pivot grab to catch you as you jump into his zone (although his throws are bad and he has no grab releases on Lucario lol) and egg toss for camping, although it shouldn't be an issue for Lucci unless perhaps he's ledgecamping eggs, in which case you might just want to let him get back on the stage.

Gimping a good Yoshi is kind of tricky, his aerial mobility lets him avoid footstools and his second jump can power through just about everything else. Fsmash and Aura Sphere are probably the best ways to net kills as they're pretty safe to use in this matchup. (Although watch out for Yoshi being able to airdodge right through Fsmash Wario-style) But basically, just outspace him and watch out for his tricksies: air mobility, uair (Sometimes with SA), jab, spotdodge, and pivot grab. If you familiarize yourself with those Yoshi will be fighting an uphill battle.

 

[culexus・wau]

Enough about Stauffy, he's a scrub.

Its just an odd coincidence that we get like.

3 SD match-ups in a row.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Flamey you pretty much already put up my input on Olimar lol.

Which is nice since now I don't have to talk about how I don't think the matchup is as bad as people see it.

 

[culexus・wau]

After getting my lessons from you,

Olimar is like 100% easier <_<

seriously.

I like Castle for this match-up.

1st stage messes with Olimar's spacing a little but means he can camp a bit easier from the left side, but not too noticable, and allows us to fit in a little more aerial mix-ups.

Theres a special trick in the transitioning I like to take advantage of VS characters with terrible platform defense and this is it diagram:

----1---____________-----4---
_____---2----
___________----3---

Space yourself into the 3rd or 2nd areas and put olimar into the 2nd/4th (3) or 1st (2) you'll end up on a platform below him and can deal some nice pressure from there

After that, if you can deal with 2nd stage being put into an annoying position its pretty much fine imo.
[IE: % lead Olimar running away to the sides and camping pikmin toss and 0-death grabs]
So don't chase olimar down the sides T_T just, don't. Shoot BAS instead.

If the olimar doesn't know the stage he might try to pivot grab down the side and SD lmao <3

Having Olimar on the left side of the 3rd stage allows him the camp without BAS going under him so keep that in mind [except when it tilts down the left]

other then that its particularly flat... :> I guess if he has the high ground it increases the duration of fsmash towards wherever its tilting downwards...but it also makes his weakspot [45 degrees in front of him] increase a slight bit.

Not the best stage to take olimar, but a clutch pick that I like :3

others stages.... uh.... pokemon stadium 1 and Pictochat have slightly higher ceilings and the latter makes whites come out more.... Don't CP the latter on Olimars that know the stage though <<...


Insomnia sucks

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah I wouldn't take Olimar to Pictochat, regardless of the high ceiling. But flame, in your post, from what I can see, I agree 100%. As for what was wrong, after looking through your posts I can't really find much of anything, haha. You seem to know the matchup really well. I can give more insight from the Olimar's point of view (especially regarding stage matchups), but you seem to have covered it extremely well.

Olimar on Japes:
Olimar's main goal in this matchup, on any stage is to stay the hell away from you at all costs. This is made extremely easy on Japes for several reasons. The main one being... we have a completely safe place to run. Not only do we have a place to run, but this place is ONLY found on this one stage. A safe ledge. This meaning, we are able to grab the ledge, attack you from the ledge, attack you from beneath the stage, grab the other ledge, without having to use our tether, leave to the main stage without having to go past you in any way, or even drop entirely into the water and restart the whole situation.

If Olimar is on the right phase, Lucario CAN'T be on the center platform, seeing as how you have no way of out camping us from that spot. If you have a percent lead, sure, you can make it to where we have to approach, or we would have to come a bit closer to camp, or force us to the center of the stage, but if you don't plan on running out the clock, you have to approach us, coming to the right section where we're dominate.

You could almost call it planking >.> Taking advantage of the ledge attacking anything above it with up airs. It's likely that you can perfectly space a down air while on top of the platform to hit us, but our spacing has to be off as well. Otherwise you only get hit. And if it's a yellow, you get hit either way. Lucario is able to do something similar with his up air, but the only difference with yours and ours is that ours stays out quite a bit longer and has a lot more range.

However, the main reason, planking aside, is that you are not able to gimp us. Japes is an extremely big stage and forcing us to the left of the stage will be beyond difficult. A smart Olimar won't let this happen. And if you succeed in doing so, there are several ledge and tether games we have in order to get onto your right and get our positioning back.

Lucario's main objective in this matchup on any stage is to force us to the ledge, for the gimp. However, forcing us to the right side of japes is pointless. There are three ledges in that area if we HAVE to be defensive. And while on other stages, where we would get cornered against a ledge, praying to not get gimped, we can merely use the ledges as our crutch on Japes. And if we DO get gimped... well, there's the water that saves us as well.

So in short, your main form of killing us, gimps, is gone. Your main approach, if we're on the right side, is gone. Lucario has no way of outcamping us when we're in different sections, does not have a tool capable of forcing us off of the ledge, and it is extremely difficult for you to hit us while we're below the right platform.

The right side of Japes is broken for Olimar, with the only problem being that if we DO go into the water, all of our non blue pikmin die, and the blues are often times stuck below the stage. But that's better than us dying at least, and it only takes 9 frames to pluck a pikmin. And we only need one to defend ourselves if you're pressuring us after we get out of the water.

Many believe that Olimar relies only on vertical KOs. However, my favorite smash is, without a doubt, Olimar's Down Smash, due to its horizontal range, speed, and overall killing ability. And this attack on japes is amazing. There's also our back and forward throws for kills as well, though not to the same extent, and also forward air and smash. And if we camp you until you're around 150%, which will happen a lot of the time, up smash CAN still be used for kills, as well as up throw.

Whenever someone takes me to japes (I've had two lucarios do so) I make sure I tell them in advance how annoying gay I'm about to play, because people oftentimes get mad at me >.>

But not all Olimars will do this to you, or know about it, so if you really think it'll work it may

Okay okay, castle seige. I can really see this being a legit counterpick for you against us. You won't want any part of us during the second phase, but during the first and third you'd mess us up, for reasons stated earlier. It should also be noted that on the third phase of castle seige, the stage is a type of terrain that causes Olimar's pikmin pluck to increase from nine frames to thirteen. Don't ask me why, it just does >.>

Also, it was mentioned awhile back by Myth, but here is Olimar's frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225377

It isn't completed yet and doesn't have much detail :/
I haven't had the chance (or the hacks available to me) to finish the rest of it but really want to @_@

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Whenever someone takes me to japes (I've had two lucarios do so) I make sure I tell them in advance how annoying gay I'm about to play, because people oftentimes get mad at me >.>

I don't count as one of those two do I?

I just reminded myself (with the above post) to warn everyone about Oli's whistle armor that can turn what you thought to be a free F-Smash into death through the ceiling of Delfino Plaza
If the Olimar you're playing pulls those kinds of shenanigans, I suggest holding the F-smash a little longer than you normally would to punish landing lag (ie bait the whistle).

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I don't count as one of those two do I?

If I'm remembering right, you do