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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Welcome to the Lucario MU thread! This is for singles discussion.

Or are you looking for the Lucario Doubles Discussion?

First off thanks Phil for handing this over.

Okay guys, here's what we are gonna do.

Second of all, for each match-up we are going to discuss I'd like for people to vote on which character we want to discuss. We will officially discuss one or two of the top voted on. Try to keep your votes to no more than five characters each time.

One of us will poke that character board (if they allow it) to get their input on that MU.

We'll discuss stages, strategies, and all that good stuff that we're used to.

This time though we're going to be a bit more precise and for each discussion we will have Aura Sphere priority data, so you know when you beat a silly move (like G&W's BAir). Keep in mind that we also gain priority based on how much damage we have and our body box will outprioritize that move.

I also ask to whomever does that particular export to have the AS data in it as well.

If you want to help contribute to priority discussion vs. another character please refer to my Auratastic spreadsheet http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png and the Aura Sphere Priority Project.

Current Rediscussion(s)
Pit and Sonic


Official LBR MU #s
(averages with decimals!
Eat that, Pikachu boards!
):
Meta Knight 40.56
Snake 40.56
Diddy Kong 46.94
Falco 46.39
Ice Climbers 51.67
Marth 42.22
Wario 45.56
King Dedede 39.44
Pikachu 57.78
Olimar 43.33
Mr. Game & Watch 51.11
Pit 52.78
Toon Link 53.89
Zero Suit Samus 53.89
Kirby 53.33
R.O.B. 51.67
Donkey Kong 48.89
Peach 59.44
Fox 48.33
Luigi 58.33
Wolf 50.56
Sheik 61.67
Pokemon Trainer 60.00
Squirtle 56.25
Ivysaur 66.25
Charizard 58.75
Sonic 63.89
Ness 57.78
Bowser 60.00
Lucas 59.38
Ike 62.22
Yoshi 63.89
Mario 60.56
Captian Falcon 63.33
Samus 63.75
Jigglypuff 62.22
Zelda 66.67
Link 66.11
Ganondorf 73.33​


For Singles:

As a Lucario:

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?


Singles Exports

THESE LINK TO PAST MATCH-UPS FOR YOU SLOW SPECIAL PEOPLE

Metaknight (pages 1-8)
Marth (pages 8-13)
Wario (pages 13-24)
Dedede (pages 24-32)
Falco (pages 32-41)
Snake (pages 41-47)
GaW (pages 47-50)
Diddy (pages 50-54)
Kirby (pages 54-59)
DK (pages 59-65)
ROB (pages 65-68)
ICs (pages 68-74)
ZSS (pages 74-81)
Olimar (pages 81-88)
Pikachu (pages 88-95)
Wolf (pages 95-101)
Peach (Pages 101-111)
Luigi (Pages 111-117)
Sonic (Pages 117-123)
Pit (Pages 123-127)
Toon Link (Pages 123-127)
Fox (Pages 127-133)
Sheik (Pages 127-133)
Link (Pages 133-137)
Pokemon Trainer (Pages 133-137)
Bowser (Pages 137-141)
Samus (Pages 137-141)
Ness (Pages 141-146)
Captain Falcon (Pages 146-150)
Ike (Pages 141-146)
Ganondorf (Pages 146-150)
Mario (Pages 150-154)
Zelda (Pages 150-154)
Lucas (Pages 154-158)
Yoshi(Pages 154-158)
Jigglypuff(Pages 154-158)
Olimar Rediscussion (Pages 159-162)
Snake Rediscussion (Pages 162-172)
King Dedede Rediscussion (Pages 172-178)
Falco Rediscussion (Pages 178-192)
Metaknight Rediscussion (Pages 192-197)

Log:
2/15/09: Holy **** thread gets started AGAIN.
2/15/09: MK matchup
2/17/09: Stickied mofuggas!!!
2/21/09: Marth matchup
2/23/09: MK export (40:60)
2/28/09: Wario matchup
3/3/09: Marth export (40:60)
3/5/09: DDD matchup
3/9/09: Wario export (45:55)
3/10/09: Falco matchup
3/12/09: DDD export (40:60)
3/15/09: Snake matchup
3/19/09: Falco Export (55:45)
3/21/09: GaW matchup
3/24/09: Snake export (40:60)
3/26/09: Diddy matchup
3/31/09: GaW export (40:60)
3/31/09: Kirby matchup
4/04/09: DK matchup
4/05/09: Diddy export (55:45)
4/13/09: ROB matchup
4/23/09: Kirby export (60:40)
4/24/09: ICs matchup
5/04/09: DK export
5/07/09: ZSS matchup
5/13/09: ROB export (50:50)
5/13/09: ICs export (60:40)
5/13/09: Olimar matchup
6/01/09: Pikachu matchup
6/10/09: Wolf matchup
6/16/09: ZSS export (50:50)
6/16/09: Olimar export (45:55)
6/16/09: Pikachu export (55:45)
6/23/09: Peach matchup
7/17/09: Luigi matchup
7/20/09: Now has SCIENCE! with phi1ny3, the other SCIENCE! guy
7/21/09: Wolf export (50:50)
7/24/09: Sonic matchup
7/24/09: Peach Export (60:40)
8/4/09: Pit and TL matchup
8/5/09: Luigi export (55:45)
8/12/09: Fox and Sheik matchup
8/17/09: Sonic Export (65:35)
8/18/09: Link and Pokemon Trainer matchup
8/20/09: Pit Export (55:45)
8/21/09: TL Export (50:50)
8/29/09: Bowser and Samus matchup
9/2/09: Fox Export (50:50)
9/2/09: Sheik Export (60:40)
9/9/09: Link Export (60:40)
9/9/09: Ike and Ness matchup
9/14/09: Pokemon Trainer export (55:45 overall, 55:45 Squirtle, 65:35 Ivysaur, 55:45 Charizard)
9/24/09: Bowser export (60:40)
10/4/09: Mario and Zelda matchup
10/4/09: Samus Export (60:40)
10/5/09: Ness Export (60:40)
10/8/09: Lucas, Jigglypuff, and Yoshi matchup
10/9/09: Captain Falcon Export (pending ratio)
10/14/09: Lucario ditto matchup
10/14/09: Ike Export (60:40)
10/15/09: Ganon Export (75:25)
10/15/09: Done with all Matchups! Yay!
10/15/09: Olimar Rediscussion
10/20/09: Snake Rediscussion
10/28/09: Mario Export (60:40)
10/28/09: King Dedede Rediscussion
11/1/09: Zelda Export (60:40)
11/5/09: Falco Rediscussion
11/11/09: Lucas Export (60:40)
11/18/09: MK Rediscussion
11/24/09: Wario Rediscussion
11/29/09: Diddy Rediscussion
12/6/09: Marth Rediscussion
12/10/09: G&W Rediscussion
12/15/09: Yoshi Export (65:35)
12/16/09: Ice Climbers Rediscussion
12/19/09: Jigglypuff Export (60:40)
1/6/10: Olimar Rediscussion Export (45:55)
1/7/10: Snake Rediscussion Export (45:55)
1/27/10: King Dedede Rediscussion Export (40:60)
1/31/10: Falco Rediscussion Export (45:55)
4/6/10: Meta Knight Rediscussion Export (40:60)
7/2/10: Handed over to MTI, reorganized OP, and restarted match-up discussion, Snake REREREREdiscussion.
7/15/10: Marth and Diddy Kong Rediscussion
8/3/10: Olimar Rediscussion
8/16/10: Wario Rediscussion
8/25/10: Wolf and Donkey Kong Rediscussion
9/6/10: Pit and Sonic Rediscussion
 

WingedKnight

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Greetings from Dream Land!
OK, I have a friend who was a former Lucario main, so I know a fair amount about this one.
Ummmm. OK. Obviously I'd imagine you people know a charged Sphere kills Nado. Not gonna help to much if you come up against a spammy, n00b MK but still, if someone tries the approach and you have it in your pocket...
Also. If Meta comes at you from below with his UAir, your DAir has more range. Also more lag, so watch for that! I used to try to go after people with UAir at the top for a vertical kill. But time a DAir right and you launch MK upwards to his doom.
Other obvious Meta strats are obvious: watch for gimping, punish when possible, keep him away. Meta Knight is quick for damage, and although he has more kill power than some believe, he doesn't have as much as the haters say he does! Save for a handful of finishers, his moves are designed to put the hurt on. When does Lucario do best? When the hurt has been put on! Keep this in mind, if you know and avoid his killers (Shuttle Loop, DSmash, Glide Attack, Gimpage, etc.), Meta Knight just makes you stronger!
Sorry if I didn't tell anything you don't already know, hope my contribution at least helps a bit!
 

The_Bear735

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Come on guys, I am sick of being a part of one of the boards that hasn't even gotten past the Ness matchup. :|

I'll edit in my input later.
 

LordoftheMorning

Smash Champion
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I really don't know much about MK's matchup regrettably. But for starters... BEWARE SHUTTLE LOOP! That is all.

If I had known this the first time I had gone up against an MK in an online tournament match, I might have won (I lost 2-3 so it wasn't so bad).

Oh, and don't try to roll out of his tornado. Or attack it with anything but an Fsmash or FCAS. Dat **** will suck you in.
 

Kappie

Smash Apprentice
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good stuff picking it back up timbers. There's a lot info on the other thread regarding mk, since it never got updated, pretty much everything is there already.

Some exports need to be finished as well, including important ones like Olimar. I can maybe help you collect info out of the thread and put in an export nicely, just PM me if you need help.

edit: I just read stuff you said in the other matchup thread...you want to start over, that's fine with me, so no old exports or anything? I can still help if you want.
 

Timbers

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I might pull some info from the MK matchup, it's just I feel the past 6 or 7 months of matchups (rofl wow thats way too long) are a bit biased, as we never really got the mains of our opponents to actually pitch in and give their perspective to the matchup. I think Luigi was the last character we did where the opposing board helped give contribution. I feel that made the matchups a bit biased.

I feel we milked the MK matchup for a lot though, so I'll definitely go and pull some quotes out of that thread if I feel we're lacking in discussion here. I understand that not everyone is going to want to say the same thing twice.


Also Phantom get RAAAAAAPED
 

phi1ny3

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MK ftilt ***** approach options, as well as Shuttle Loop.
dtilt ***** shield options.
dair ***** recovery.
PS -> practically anything ***** fsmash.
dsmash is plain ****.
 

Browny

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phil were talking about MK here...
his everything ***** everyone, all your points are a given when discussing mk :p
 

phi1ny3

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dtilt: space w/ shield as if he were to SH aerial.
dsmash: Not much shield lag, if you're lucky, jab, utilt, or grab after shielding.
ftilt/shuttle loop: Fire AS before approaching. If he is still nailing you, get outside of ftilt/SL range and either fsmash, dtilt, or jab. You can also land right outside their range and shield.
dair: AD, or make him stay on the edge by firing BAS/fair. Depending on stage, usually going recovering from below is better against dair, due to it's launching trajectory and inability to spike.
PS: You are being too predictable with fsmash. Mix it up with ftilt, grab, or AS.
Shield is your best friend practically, as most MKs are attack oriented, and dash grab/pivot grab are what he's going to do more often than not vs. standing grab, all of which are slow (standing grab), and telegraphed. If he tornados, tilt the shield upwards if he's above you so that it won't shield stab as easily.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
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My export, since it's still the truth about the match up. Also Timbers, if you need help just let me know. I will be glad to help out:
Ok. Metaknight matchup. Easy enough.

MK. Annoying. Hell, he is almost the most annoying character in the game due to the fact that he only has about 1 bad match up(lol). But even then it doesn't stop lucario from taking first in the matchup. the matchup is in Metaknight's favor but not by much, and its 100% possible to win.

Metaknight has alot of gimmicks and tricks. From Uair chains to Nado spamming. First off I would like to explain how to stop his glide attack. Metaknight's glide clashes with almost everything if it hits with another move. If you see a metaknight go for a glide attack you have 2 ways to stop it.

1) When MK sweeps in with the glide attack, jump and fair first to clash out his glide, then use Dair to hit him.

2) Jump and Dair. The first hit of dair will clash out the swing of his glide and the 2nd attack of Dair will hit Metaknight.

Use those tatics to knock out his glide attacks normally and out of shuttle loop.

Avoid going under metaknight. His down air will sweep you due to its long range vertically and horizontaly. His fair beats out your fair and your Bair will trade with is fair, so if you see him going to fairs for spacing or even just to rush you space backwars and bair him. Avoid jumping at him directly while he is on the ground. He will shuttle loop and hit you. Use AS and BAS a lot more for this match, but avoid over camping. Metaknight can get in very fast and easy.

I learned yesterday while playing m2k that for this matchup your F-Smash can and will be punished in many ways. Hell, if you Fsmash and MK blocks it, He can dash grab you -_-. That one was tested and proven. lol. Your F-smash beats out Nado and a fully charged AS will also beat nado out. Keep that in mind because thats one of MK's openings. If you see a MK nado close to you but near the ground, Roll dodge out! Its a trap. Metaknight has no lagg after tornado if he stays near the ground, he can attack out right out of it with anything faster then your moves (which btw is almost all of his moves) Best thing to do is just move out the way. If he Nado's you but is above you putting pressure on your shield, When the nado is done either Utilt or grab him before he lands. If he nados past you do not chase him, for he will punish you also.

This is something I can not stress enough. For this matchup, Do not try to gimp him -_-!!!!!

**** Metaknights... Gimping bleh. One Dair will kill you off map if you are trying to return to the map. Try to recover high if you see him try to gimp you, and try to save your jump if you know you can make it back to the map without using it (making it to the ledge does not apply, since he is fast enough to edge hog you while returning)

Use tilts a lot more in this match. You need to be fast. His down tilt is on frame stupid and it trips so try to either jump in the air or roll out the way.

One thing about metaknight is that he lacks on kill moves. His downsmash will be used so it will be stale when it comes to the point on which he needs to kill you. DI up for this smash. His only 2 decent kill moves other then downsmash is Shuttle loop and F-smash. Shuttle loop will be used a lot also for the matchup so it will also be stale. the only real thing you need to worry about is F-smash. (While you're on the ground anyway)

The matchup is No more then 60-40 Mk. I can also say that it may be 55-45, but that may be pushing it a bit.
 

Browny

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BS on mk being able to dashgrab a shielded lucario fsmash, id like to see actual frame data on that before I believe it
 

professor mgw

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2 b honest wit u, da only way lucario can beat meta is either by luck or da person usin meta doesn't know wat he/she is doin.
 

Browny

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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

what if you're trying to land on stage and MK just hovers below dair range and waits to shuttle loop after you airdodge or attack... it can be qutie difficult to get around that :/
 

Timbers

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BS on mk being able to dashgrab a shielded lucario fsmash, id like to see actual frame data on that before I believe it
lol
2 b honest wit u, da only way lucario can beat meta is either by luck or da person usin meta doesn't know wat he/she is doin.
thanks for the awesome reasoning bro


Also RJ, the only help I really need right now is getting this stickied in place of the other thread. The mods don't seem to do anything unless we spam them en masse.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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My input:

BAS Spam is a little more helpful here to slow his approaching. It doesn't wall him as easily as Falco's lasers but it helps slow him down a bit, even with this I feel like Fully Charged AS is better for pressure. Full charged AS will Beat tornado, can help slow and approach, and is a nice surprise for a MK trying to recover. I'd keep one handy at all times.

Mix up your Fsmashs rather than relying on it. It is a good spacing tool, but if MK predicts it, he'll shield grab you. It does beat the tornado, I think. Bair clashes with some of his aerials, not sure about our Fair which loses out to his Fair.

OOS Utilt, Ftilt, and grab are good ways to punish MK. You need to time yourself right otherwise he's going to bring out another quick attack to fight back with.

And as usual, DON'T TRY TO GIMP HIM.

As for stages, for the love of god DON'T PICK RAINBOW CRUISE! He does much better on that stage compared to most other stages. Any place with a low ceiling, Corneria, can help as MK's vertical kill power is less powerful than his horizontal.

Final Destination isn't a bad choice either in this regard.

Hope this helps the discussion.
 

Mattsy

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Fair isn't good against Metaknight.
Spam Aura Spere.
Fsmash walls.
Approach with bair if you really have to.
Dair is decent.

Watch out for Shuttle Loop, Mach Tornado and Dsmash.

GLAD TO BE OF HELP WITH THESE THINGS THAT YOU DEFINITELY DID NOT ALREADY KNOW, I'M SURE

Also, you should ban M2K.

Serious. Ban him.

Or Rainbow Cruise.
 

WingedKnight

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Good points people have made: Take him somewhere with a low ceiling (or FD, we don't like that XD), do not attempt to gimp, be friends with Aura Sphere (don't get predictable, don't neglect), and PUNISH!
This matchup isn't just about luck. I don't think it's Lucario favor but its far from a situation where it needs to be a beast Lucario and horrible Meta Knight. The 65:35 matchup is a bit too much, it needs to be refigured. I agree with previously stated ratio, 60:40 at worst, maybe even 55:45, its pretty close. As Lucario, you have to play smart, but its not as bad as some would have you believe!
 

Timbers

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i dont like fsmash in the matchup. My primary uses for the move is to punish landing frames, baiting, and throwing up walls.

MK shouldn't have to land like at all next to you due to multiple jumps, everything is so fast that baiting with such a slow move is difficult, and MK gets around Luc's walls exceptionally well.
 

|RK|

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Actually last time they played, M2K only beat Azen because of a gimp. Azen was almost a whole stock ahead.

The thing about this matchup is that Lucario has to kill first/not get gimped/stay at least even with MK, in order to avoid getting *****. It's likely to vary from match to match, not saying lucario has to get lucky, but specific things CANT happen if lucario is to win.
From Red Halberd in regards to a comment about Azencario vs. M2MK (lol)
 

Hylian

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Enjoy your sticky.
 

phi1ny3

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Thanks Hylian!

On MK:
Watch out for getting within 3/4 away from the center, MK will do dthrow -> fair to get you offstage and either gimp or put a boatload of pain on you off the edge.
 

Timbers

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I'm sticky for Hylian.


Also phil brings up a good point. MK is probably the best character I know of to punish players who try to live in their shield. Don't run to shield everytime you feel you're getting pressured, or you're going to be eating dthrows and followups.
 

phi1ny3

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Ironically, shield can also be one of your best friends against MK, as long as you can tell when he's going to grab or dtilt.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm assuming in this match-up Fsmash isn't very good. Tilts are more useful for speed and closeness in range to Fsmash.

I agree with 60:40 MK. Lucario has options to fight back, but MK still has an easier time getting damage in.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

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I still don't see Metaknight posing as much of a threat to Lucario as he does to the rest of the cast... Our upaerial and downaerial cuts his air-game completely in half. Unless he's coming at you left or right of you, not one of his moves can hit through your down air (except for random sidebspecial attack), and upair is very hard for him to stop too... also, it is an awesome way to kill him, knocking his butt up and off of the screen. The only time I see his aerial game better than his ground game is when I've made a mistake and he's trying to stop me from getting back to the stage, in which case you should make sure that you don't understimate the range of ES, but hope to God that he doesn't reach your target point before you do...

Ground game wise, I see it as evened up..... his specials can do a little more here, but most of them can be stoped with the full powered Aura Sphere... and spammy small ones **** his approach..... His down smash is deadly, but it and his forward smash don't outrange your Forward smash... but you can't spam it, or he'll dodge it and you'll be left wide open for a ******.... his tilts seem to be the biggest issue here, but if you can avoid being grabbed, shield then up or forward tilts can help you keep it even here...

Metaknight is by no means a pushover... he's an uber deadly juggernaut.... and he'll beat the snot out of you if you make a single mistake... but we've got Aura on ourside.... I love how our fully charged Aura Sphere can break him at around 120 of his damage% when hitting him in mid air... I might be boasterous, and I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I see this as a 55-45, maybe 51-49 in our favor atleast.... but only if you make sure you don't make a single mistake. The more you mess up, the more Metaknight will capitalize on it.

As for stages, I like anything with a Low Ceeling.... or something that would be easier for you to kill him up than it would be to kill him left or right... not that they aren't options... for some reason, I really like Corneria and for a stranger reason, the Battlefield....
 

Raiken

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First off, i'm glad someone is finally going about this how i always thought it should of been done; covering the biggest threats first.

I don't really have much to say since i'm ... still not much of a tourneygoer, but even though it might be slightly chaotic, wouldn't it be better to take matchup info in for several characters at once, instead of one at a time so the matchup list gets completed faster? Say, 2-3 characters at once, maybe?

I'd try to add some input on MK myself, but i really don't have anything other than just general basic matchup knowledge...
 

phi1ny3

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I'm assuming in this match-up Fsmash isn't very good. Tilts are more useful for speed and closeness in range to Fsmash.

I agree with 60:40 MK. Lucario has options to fight back, but MK still has an easier time getting damage in.
Don't forget that offstage is going to be his win, both on the offensive and recovering end.

OK, so what do you do if you do get offstage? I think our options are with AS, fair, uair, AD, dair (to mess up his timing when he coordinates a gimp attempt with his aerial) and ES.
 
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