SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[iRJi]

Also, Since the conversation has died down a bit. Lets start giving some more info, as well as general MU numbers please.

Try to add a bit more info on stages as well, unless that is all we tech. have for oli lol.

My number is a 60:40 Oli.

 

[phi1ny3]

Flamey you pretty much already put up my input on Olimar lol.

Which is nice since now I don't have to talk about how I don't think the matchup is as bad as people see it.

Daw c'mon Stauffy, you know I've been crazy with MU verdicts before, get risky lol :D
I think it's a 40:60, but stage dependent. Frigate is good, I was also thinking possibly about YI, not just because of the wallcling factor, but usmash gets slightly debuffed with the high ceiling, we have actually imo better methods of gimping here, and the platform can help against Oli.

 

[culexus・wau]

but usmash gets slightly debuffed with the high ceiling

YI actually has the same stage height as neutrals I believe <<. the non flat stage does mess with olimar's grabs though, so I believe it may help,

On the topic of nonflat stages consider Lylat Cruise due the constant stage tipping and the platforms to further pressure.

Also Hilt, Its all really thanks to Stauffy ^^; I just practiced it on wifi a lot until I got the match-up down solid and I can play it offline to a degree as well [haven't play oli too much offline yet though, he's kinda rare] Stauffy is much better in that match-up probs.

god am I sucking stauffy's **** ._.;

whatever.

anyhow,

I suggest just going to wherever you feel comfortable in cornering your opponent to the ledge. as that is really whats important here, getting him offstage or in the air.

if you need a slight edge, stages that tilt will mess with olimars grab [pikmin just walk forward for his grab] and stages with slightly higher ceilings [Pokemon Stadium 1,Pictochat and Pirate ship if your area allows the latter 2...]

Explore your options and find which stages works for you, but as hilt says I suggest you stray away from Japes [which you should ban if legal]

in any case I firmly believe that at 1st if you don't know the match-up you're going to get yo *** *****, but as both sides learn the match-up I believe it gets closer to evenish, a SLIGHT advantage, as usual.

45-55 imo but I can settle on 40-60 ;3

******* Stage Height Info sited from Project Vertical: http://www.smashboards.co/showthread.php?t=156908







On That Note... Who are we to discuss next?

I My Vote is towards Marth as I really think that match is a load of bull**** if the marth really abuses Full Hops and UpB, that and I think he edgeguards us just as well as MK <_<

But I'm fine with discussing Snake if thats the general consensus [just don't count my vote towards it D: marthmarthmarthmarth]

 

[iRJi]

Info

One step at a time, =]. We will hit all the characters. I have a list XD. I wanna follow the list D=.
I will debut the next character, and as said before, the discussions for the character list are not up to debate. =]. But Yes, Snake will be the next person we talk about, since he is one of the biggie's on wrong MU ratio I believe.

Still waiting on other MU numbers. The faster we get them in, the faster we can move on =D.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Definitely. I would agree with 55:45 Olimar, though 60:40 is fitting as well. If lucario gets us into a bad position or corners us near a ledge, it's extremely difficult for us to get our footing back and gain stage control. However, getting in our zone can be really difficult for lucario, and he's not able to outcamp us.

But yes, it's extremely stage dependent, and you'll want to play it smart in your counterpicks, since you do worse against us on our bad stages than we do (except for frigate, but that'll be our ban).

 

[phi1ny3]

I haven't played Weruop much, but maybe I'll get a mm sometime. If I do, that'll seal my judgment on the MU, although I now think it's a 45:55 again after revisiting the MU again (and once again, watching videos, but I feel stupid that I missed the opportunity to play Weroup at TP3 >.<)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No point in me talking about info when everyone else covered the basis of the MU. Only tip I could stress is get up close and keep pressuring him.

I agree this MU is stage dependent. When I fought on Luigi's mansion I got ***** hard, so if it's legal it can be a nasty counter pick. Olimar can limit aerial approaches while creating some dumb ceiling combos to juggle Lucario hard. It's a dumb stage against Olimar. Yet at the same time I took him to Frigate and wrecked him just as bad.

This is all combined with the fact both sides can pick multiple stages, as in 3-4, that work well in this MU.

60:40 Olimar for the ratio.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i play fino pretty frequently and the funny thing is that if you know what you are doing lucario can really wreck olimar. with good DI you shoulding be dieing low except from usmash. with proper timing a grab and fthrow will steal olimars jump. fair and nair are good for baiting moves from olimar. be semi predictable in knocking his spam away and bait in approach. combine that with some occasional fair gimpage off stage and the matchup really isnt that bad. i would say 45-55 olimar or even 50-50. to see where im coming from i have a way better pikachu, and fino normally beats my pikachu but i normally beat him with lucario

 

[phi1ny3]

YI actually has the same stage height as neutrals I believe <<. the non flat stage does mess with olimar's grabs though, so I believe it may help,

On the topic of nonflat stages consider Lylat Cruise due the constant stage tipping and the platforms to further pressure.

Also Hilt, Its all really thanks to Stauffy ^^; I just practiced it on wifi a lot until I got the match-up down solid and I can play it offline to a degree as well [haven't play oli too much offline yet though, he's kinda rare] Stauffy is much better in that match-up probs.

god am I sucking stauffy's **** ._.;

whatever.

anyhow,

I suggest just going to wherever you feel comfortable in cornering your opponent to the ledge. as that is really whats important here, getting him offstage or in the air.

if you need a slight edge, stages that tilt will mess with olimars grab [pikmin just walk forward for his grab] and stages with slightly higher ceilings [Pokemon Stadium 1,Pictochat and Pirate ship if your area allows the latter 2...]

Explore your options and find which stages works for you, but as hilt says I suggest you stray away from Japes [which you should ban if legal]

in any case I firmly believe that at 1st if you don't know the match-up you're going to get yo *** *****, but as both sides learn the match-up I believe it gets closer to evenish, a SLIGHT advantage, as usual.

45-55 imo but I can settle on 40-60 ;3

******* Stage Height Info sited from Project Vertical: http://www.smashboards.co/showthread.php?t=156908







On That Note... Who are we to discuss next?

I My Vote is towards Marth as I really think that match is a load of bull**** if the marth really abuses Full Hops and UpB, that and I think he edgeguards us just as well as MK <_<

But I'm fine with discussing Snake if thats the general consensus [just don't count my vote towards it D: marthmarthmarthmarth]

I wouldn't do Pirate ship.
Having mostly water prevents you from gimping him, and it makes chances of blue pikmin (since other pikmin die in the water) increase, meaning fthrow/bthrow will kill o_O.
I think Picto can do some things to Oli though, The hazards can reduce how campy he can get.
PS1 I'm not sure, but something tells me that the stage can be icky to play Oli against, since Weruop CPs this stage a lot (at least against MK).
I think Lylat, Pictochat, Frigate, and Poke Stadium 2 are good stages however.
Lylat has stupid tilting, but that messes with Oli's recovery more than ours, since we can at least curve and has a good ledgesnap. Ceiling is also decently high, and the tilt messes with his superior camp game/grab game.
Picto I already mentioned, high ceiling, hazards imo mess with Oli more than you
Frigate is obvious.
Poke stadium, here's why I think it could possibly be good:
Overall has high ceiling, platforms can help, pretty nicely spread, you have some breathing room.
Electric mode: I don't know for sure who has the upper hand. Having that central part of the stage means A LOT for both chars, since Oli doesn't want to risk camping as much with pikmin on the treadmill parts and it could reduce his chances of surviving, but Oli can do pretty nasty things if you are forced to the sides.
Ice mode: Does a lot of wacky things, but can most importantly mess with his spacing, and since we are doing far more things in the air, we don't have to worry about the stage much.
Wind mode: This is **** for lucario, Oli getting in the air is bad in this MU, you have a holiday on this part.
Rock mode: The layout is weird, but the slopes can mess up his grabbing, just make sure you stay as much in the air as possible, the platforms can help, but beware of sharking utilts or uairs.
I think this MU has the most bizarre stage picks, all of which are dependent more on the comfort of the CPer more than anything.
For Neutrals, I'd say YI/BF if you have them available.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you also want to avoid delfino unless you are really comfortable there. he has insane purple chances on the floating stage

 

[culexus・wau]

I used to CP picto all the time until SoCal started to be mean and not let it be legal,

Should I do a really in depth post about every single stage hazard? honestly the ratio of stage transformations that benefit olimar in comparision to us isn't that bad, but I don't wanna do it if its not gonna matter much.

Homehospital gives you too much time man

**** it I'm bored,

Long Huge *** write-up soon.

1st of all let me say a few basic things.

1.There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for being gimped on this stage as Lucario [except by MK SL]
The Ceiling is high enough so if you DI right you have plenty of options. below the stage at the lowest point you can still make it to the clingable area with ES if someones hogging you [to the edge even if no ones there ;\] I may have bias since its the place where I practice curving [plenty of places and odd angles, makes me adaptable] but you'll certainly have an easier time living. however, keep in mind the little "\ /" lines on the sides of the stage, you can't cling to those, and I've seen unfamiliar lucarios try to to

2.Transformations can give you really nice areas to charge Aurasphere/taunt/take a breather, take advantage of this space as olimar can't do **** to you, unfortunately on the flipside... the same can be said for olimar if he's able to control the spot Most Common Area for these are the middle so if you're playing the match-up right you got this.

2a.Speaking of transformations

**"The stage won't repeat another drawing until all 27 have passed -
 each drawing appearing every 13.333 seconds and lasting 13.333 seconds."

The usual time limit for a match is 8 minutes

60s* 8 = 480s

480s/13.333s = 36.000900022500562514062851571289

round down to 35 [it may not complete into the 36th second and 
I have never timed out someone on a transformation <3 wifi]

after that:
1=nothing
2=drawing
3=nothing
4=drawing
5=nothing
6=drawing
7=nothing
8=drawing
9=nothing
10=drawing
11=nothing
12=drawing
13=nothing
14=drawing
15=nothing
16=drawing
17=nothing
18=drawing
19=nothing
20=drawing
21=nothing
22=drawing
23=nothing
24=drawing
25=nothing
26=drawing
27=nothing
28=drawing
29=nothing
30=drawing
31=nothing
32=drawing
33=nothing
34=drawing
35=nothing

For 7 minute matches either get your opponent to agree to 8 minutes or and redo 
my equation with 7 instead of 8. Math isn't hard. Calculators exist. >.>

Anyways thats 17 transformations you have to go through, out of 27,
since its impossible to do 27 in a 8 minute match you will only encounter each once.

If you wanna do some more math.

17*13.333s = 226.661s

round to the highest

227s

3m 47s its only 3.7th [ballparked] of the match and the rest is on a neutral state.


come on guys, this isn't banwort- oh wait nvm wrong thread.

but get educated <3

Yeah I do my research <3

2b: Staying safe onstage [VS Olimar]
With experience, you'll know which plats are safe VS olimar and which plats will get you uaired. if you don't though, by rule of thumb: The More Dynamic it is the safer you'll be, the more stationary and normal it is the more of a chance that leaf/flower is going to be cutting at your feet.

2ndly to avoid those terrible easy to avoid "broken" transformations:

Meno's picture is too good.


data got deleted, I don't wanna type it all again argesfesdfd

 

[Kitamerby]

I hope you guys know about Oli's uthrow glitch on some of the hazards.


It's a fine stage as long as you avoid the piranha plant.

<<

Still, I like it vs. Oli. iirc he gets less purples.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Why would anyone ever want to CP Olimar with Pictochat? They love that stage.

Daw c'mon Stauffy, you know I've been crazy with MU verdicts before, get risky lol :D

It's not 40:60 in my mind. But that doesn't matter.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why would anyone ever want to CP Olimar with Pictochat? They love that stage.

Why not? Pictochat is fun.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Kita you're dumb.

And so is Pictochat by the way.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol Pictochat is so win for me, I love getting people nailed by the cart and spikes, but the missles don't like me all that much.

 

[iRJi]

lol Pictochat is so win for me, I love getting people nailed by the cart and spikes, but the missles don't like me all that much.

So far I have a dominate vote on a 55:45. If this is the case we can soon move onto our next MU. I will give it to late tonight before I close the talk on Oli, and move on.

 

[GreyClover]

I'll post my late input stuff even though people probably already posted the same info.

Watch out for Olimar's grab. A Dthrow and an Uthrow are great at combos, expect the Uthrow>Uair combos to be thrown out a lot. With the Dthrows Olimars like to use a Fair or another grab which can cg seven times at 0% percents for a mid-wieght. Also if Olimar shields an attack he is still in grab range to shield grab. Though Olimar mostly is going to try and grab you from an aerial. Another thing you should be aware of is Olimar's juggling abilities, once he gets you up in the air he can keep you there for a long time. An Uair and a Nair is great at juggling though SDI'ing out of them shouldn't be too hard. Olimar in KO'ing purposes is not to bad. Purple pikmins can kill pretty well with any move, blue pikmin bthrows can kill at high percents, and a Usmash as long as it's not yellow or white is great in power. lol I just listed some good moves Olimar has.

I'd say 55:45 Oli.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pokemon stadium 2 is a good stage vs Olimar.

Wind while it screws up a lot of people, Lucario isn't as screwed up thanks to his already floaty physics and Dair. Ice screws up his Pikmen, they will lag behind him when he does some smashes and if he goes to far ahead he can't grab.

I'm not sure about PS1.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

With the Dthrows Olimars like to use a Fair or another grab which can cg seven times at 0% percents for a mid-wieght.

What the heck is this.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

he cant even cg fox more then 4 times from 0, i have no clue what hes talking about O.o

 

[iRJi]

he cant even cg fox more then 4 times from 0, i have no clue what hes talking about O.o

he can't CG lucario, just to confirm it.

Also by the looks of it, we are all near a agreement on the MU number being 55:45 Oli. So this is the number we will be using.

The Mu is 55:45 Oli. Phil, you can now make the export. =]

___________________________________________________________________________

Now that Oli is done, we can move on to our next character.

Snake

Don't get naded.

Go.

 

[phi1ny3]

Snake... hahaha
I had an emo stage where I thought snake was borderline unwinnable, but my impressions really changed after I got good practice against snake, it's not so bad.
Definitely in the 45-40 range for lucario's chances and tool comparison.
The problem is that Snake is the antithesis of Lucario's strengths: he outcamps him (sort of, it really is more of a draw more often), kills stupid early, has really good edgeguard pressure, and can really kill off lucario's long range game. I learned to never use fsmash unless he's landing or if he spotdodges, it's pretty much a free ftilt for him, and your time is better off getting a move that is a better setup for juggling, like jab, utilt, or grab. One of the first MUs where I learned to use pivot grab to a really strong extent, as fighting snake requires a similar mentality as D3, fighting predictable rock-paper-scissors with someone who plays boulder-kevlar-butcher blade, if you get the analogy. The problem is, you have more freedom with your moves, and can be far less predictable. I actually like using dtilt for this game as well, since it pops up snake for grabs and such, using ftilt as a spacer in this MU is asking to be whomped on the head. Quick moves with little commitment are what really makes or breaks this MU.
Lucario also does waaaaaaay better in the air. Provided you space correctly and mix it up a bit, I can see lucario not having to be nearly as worried about grenade pressure and can add layers to approaching.
These were all that I experimented with during TP3, and I found nothing but good results.

 

[junebug]

someone teach me the olimar matchup, the way im playing it seems like 65:35. D:

i cant approach, and whenever i fair i usually eat a dashed/standing upsmash. uh yeah, so once you get him in the air, its good, but how do you get him in the air when his ground game is so good?

EDIT: oh ****, snake. disregard this. >_<

 

[Stealth Raptor]

its all about baiting his attacks and punishing. if you are fairing and he can usmash you, then you were too close. i only fair if i am at a distance or if i am close in enough that i wont miss. hover around the tip of his grab range, trying to bait attacks. he he wants to spam grab land just outside the grab range and use some bas. if he approaches you, dodge his attack, land asap and get some jabs/grab in. another thing that can help, if you grab him out of the air after he has used his second jump and fthrow him, he doesnt get his jump back. really good as a shock tactic. really its just about spacing and baiting.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

For Snake, you got the small chaingrab at low percent. A x2, side-B is a good set up. Snake's pivot grab beat's Lucario's. Lucario's fthrow is too good at high percents. As said before, Snake has a solid edge guarding game. I find it hard to get back on the stage but if time correctly, your aerials can cancel the projectile launched by the mortar. Down air is good but don't overuse it, and Snake's will just shield and then grab Lucario. It's unfortunate how a grenade can stop a fully charged Aura Sphere. Try to keep one fully charged so you can surprise Snake at a close range or even try to predict Snake's path of recovery. At high percents, Snake will be looking for that uptilt to avoid a stronger Lucario. The crawl is practically useless in this MU. Snake will ftilt to get Lucario out of his face. Double team makes a good surprise move but I wouldn't dare to use it because Lucario will get punished hard for it. I think the matchup is 55:45 in Snake's favor. He will want to kill Lucario before he becomes to strong.

Lucario should take Snake to Frigate Orpheon and Battlefield. Yeah Snake has good stage control on BF, but with the platforms, you can go after him in the air since Snakes tend to recover high.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can we please rediscuss G&W, Marth and Diddy next? I think those match-ups are wrong - I think Luc goes even with Marth and G&W but slighly loses to Diddy. Also, Lucario loses to Falco but beats DK.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

Can we please rediscuss G&W, Marth and Diddy next? I think those match-ups are wrong - I think Luc goes even with Marth and G&W but slighly loses to Diddy. Also, Lucario loses to Falco but beats DK.

I think Lucario goes 45:55 with Marth because of that stupid sword. Marth's upair beats Lucario's down air and Marth has the better recovery.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think this is speculation that needs to be reviewed with a bunch of people, particularly other players that play marth or marths that play lucario on a regular basis.
Lee Martin says it's near even, as does Roy_R, RT, and I think Trela.
Stuaffy and Junebug don't.
I haven't really heard from other marth players about the MU.
I'm on the fence, even if my opinion is kinda weird.
G&W by a landslide has been thought to be even, although like I say for all these MUs, we'll get to them in due time.
Falco is definitely not our advantage, not if they super camp.
Diddy is definitely a weird scenario, I'm not sure what most Lucario users think of the MU.
DK is another one that imo is 50:50.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

idk i have to sorta disagree with falco. before the buffered dthrows were figured out for pikachu i used lucario as my falco counter. lucarios large sheild makes it easy to psheild the lasers, and with proper prediction you can psheild the phantasm. once you get within falco you can generally wreck him combos. combine that with the fact that falcos kill moves are largely telegraphed/slow you should be living for a while. idk, i never found it hard.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

idk i have to sorta disagree with falco. before the buffered dthrows were figured out for pikachu i used lucario as my falco counter. lucarios large sheild makes it easy to psheild the lasers, and with proper prediction you can psheild the phantasm. once you get within falco you can generally wreck him combos. combine that with the fact that falcos kill moves are largely telegraphed/slow you should be living for a while. idk, i never found it hard.

Falco's phantasm can be intercepted by a fsmash. And Falco can't cg Lucario right? Although Falco does have the highest jump in the game and short hop double laser can be annoying super camping.

 

[RT]

Falco, I think is evenish, stage dependent.
DK is around even.
Diddy is almost certainly in his favor.
G&W...I honestly cannot say because I haven't played a good G&W in quite a while.

Falco can do the walking chaingrab twice at low percents, I think...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem against Falco is that Lucario is a momentum based characters - his attacks have little cooldown lag but the windup of his attack is almost always higher than other characters' move of the same type (frame 6 jab is slower, fsmash is slow, tilts are slowish). Lucario almost always needs some time to get "the ball rolling" and that's really hard to do against Falco because he can interrupt you with his quick moves very well. On the ground his jabs can stop you fairly well from getting in the swing and so do his lasers at long range. As long as Falco is camping and manages to quickly sneak in one of his fast moves it's very hard to find a way through. I think Falco wins 55/45.

But the current discussion is on Snake so I'll give some input on that match-up as well. I think Snake is tied with D3 for Lucs worst match-up. It's 6/4 in Snake's favour because his KO power, damage raking and his weight are too good. Basically Snake wins this match-up for the same reasons as most others: his basic attributes are completely rapesauce, which is enough in almost all match-ups. Juggling him is the way to go but it's hard to set-up because a good Snake is super-hard to grab or to get hit with any move in close range. His dash attack is stupid because he can use it against your fsmash.

 

[phi1ny3]

I can see a lot of things lucario can do against diddy to really help sway it for at least an even MU. Even though Diddy has a lot of guaranteed stuff, Diddy can't kill which can potentially cause some problematic situations. That and the whole AS -> banana trade, Lucario's air time if he really feels like staying up there, and punishers.
But once again, I'd like to wait until we get there.
And yes, while lucario doesn't have speed, he outplays falco with range, which is why anything besides CQC and far range camping is where lucario wins (Lucario's mid-far fighting zones, air game, etc.) I still agree that falco can really beat lucario in the worst way imaginable, by playing hit-and-run all day. This alone is why I think it's 45:55 Falco's favor.

 

[iRJi]

I can see a lot of things lucario can do against diddy to really help sway it for at least an even MU. Even though Diddy has a lot of guaranteed stuff, Diddy can't kill which can potentially cause some problematic situations. That and the whole AS -> banana trade, Lucario's air time if he really feels like staying up there, and punishers.
But once again, I'd like to wait until we get there.
And yes, while lucario doesn't have speed, he outplays falco with range, which is why anything besides CQC and far range camping is where lucario wins (Lucario's mid-far fighting zones, air game, etc.) I still agree that falco can really beat lucario in the worst way imaginable, by playing hit-and-run all day. This alone is why I think it's 45:55 Falco's favor.

Its about snake now ppl =D

Edit: Snake really isn't that hard. I will get into detail in a bit, but I am at work right now, so I don't have the time to give right now. Later tonight, I will however.

 

[phi1ny3]

Snake, do rock-paper-scissors for the port priority. It isn't rude, it's how to get the upper hand.
I swear your grab game changes a lot with this feature, uthrow if you don't have priority, dthrow if you do.
Also, iirc jab -> FP (not AA) works pretty well, as they don't have enough time to get back to ftilt, unless they're Ally (lol RJ knows what I'm talking about).
Also, if they use both ftilt hits, it's actually not safe for them, but a good snake will probe with jab1 or ftilt1, but if you do happen to see them over extend like this, it's pretty much grab/jab/utilt meat.
How exactly do you do this?
simple: mix it up with your air game, snake has limited options against lucario if he's spacing properly in the air, he can only hope to punish with jab1 or boost grab, so he'll sometimes use ftilt2 preemptively since it has a bigger hitbox against airborne opponents. I can't stress enough how important getting into the air and messing around with this, you can use dair and other tools many times to almost make this in your favor and help against grenade camping, at least from what I experienced from playing Zeionut and DanM.

 

[culexus・wau]

I think Snake is tied with D3 for Lucs worst match-up.

It's 6/4 in Snake's favour

<3 Lucario match-ups

His dash attack is stupid because he can use it against your fsmash.

what are you talking about? a lot of characters dash attacks can be used agaisnt our fsmash ._.

but yeah my input.

Snake is REALLY stupid, I usually find the match ending up close wether they're good or bad simply because of our lolaura and the fact we have to be either losing or kill % to kill snake.

And in a ground to ground situation [how snake wants it], Snake is hard to kill

As Usual VS heavy characters you cannot afford to die 1st or else you will have a very hard time killing/getting the lead back.


Explosives:
Grenades are pain in the *** until you learn how to deal with them too. I forget exactly when the blow-up time is, I think its 4 seconds ircc. fair clanks with them ever so often, but other times blows them up

When Snake pulls a grenade he has 5 options from most common to least:
Shield
Grab
Roll Backwards
Sidestep
Roll Forward

of course when canceling to shield he can do any OOS option [Grab,Sidestep, Upsmash,... Cypher? lol oh and shieldrop]

It is also important to note which way he's facing you, if he has your back to you you're more likely to blow up the grenade with an attack BUT he can't grab you.

If he faces you you're less likely to blow the grenade with a FF Aerial but he can shieldgrab/grab :/

Pay attention to their grenade habits, it may help you in the long run.

Now onto the C4 [just what is C4 supposed to mean anyway ] The C4 can be stickied like almost anywhere so pay attention [even on the side of a wall that got me a free stock once LOL <3]. be careful if its stickied to you, and don't do anything too committing unless you're close to snake remember that it'll shake off eventually in time as well.

C4 takes 27 seconds to autoexplode so keep your eye on that timer fellas, if the snake is ignorant you can take advantage of this.

Ok now onto the last explosive [I don't consider mortars apart of these] the Proximity Mine These can be nasty, but you can autodetonate them while taking no damage by rolling past them, DON'T LAND ON THEM FROM THE AIR YOU WILL TAP THEM AND WON'T BE ABLE TO SHIELD.... unless you charge AS and time it perfectly on landing to powershield [if we charge AS while landing we suffer no landing lag, but unlike snake we can't just hold R to buffer the shield since we can Airdodge out of ours.

Oh yeah, and they take 25 seconds to despawn and despawn on snakes death [? I've noticed it a few times but I need confirmation].

ALWAYS KNOW WHERE THE EXPLOSIVES ARE, IF YOU DO NOT YOU RISK TAKING HEAVY DAMAGE OR AN EARLY DEATH WHICH YOU CANNOT AFFORD IN THIS MATCH-UP.


CQC:
Common Snake moves include.

Close Range - Mid range
-Jab1
-Ftilt1 [on hitconfirm combo into ftilt2 of course]
-Uptilt
-Upsmash

Mid - Long range
Dash attack
Motor Slide

Lets dissect these shall we.

Jab1 - This is used to put us on the spot or interrupt stuff. It doesn't combo into ftilt/Uptilt and I literally die a little inside whenever I see that work

the full 3 hit does though however but can be DI'd out of, jab1 can be held repeatedly, Jab3 is capable of killing at the side of the stage or at least sends you very far away.

Ftilt1 - lolhitboxes, learn ftilt1's range and especially its aerial range as well. Ftilt2 can knock you out of the air too if your not careful so look out. Don't dash into this seriously ._. a common mistake by some people is shieldashing when they're too close and they get ftilt'd before their shield comes out.

Uptilt - this is stupid move. Kills us starting 103 on FD according to their data. has stupid range.
I've noticed that sometimes weak hit [top part, when used as an anti air, ussually VS our Dair] kills sometimes too ,_,
has anyone tested if this has the same trajectory as the strong utilt? This has about the range of their ftilt, a smidge farther maybeee, remember you don't DI to the side you DI Up and behind Snake



Someone Do the rest for me

 

[phi1ny3]

fsmash should only be used in this MU when he spotdodges, messes up on something, or is landing. Ftilt can punish fsmash, you leave just enough of a hurtbox out for him to whomp you.
Oh, and if he dthrows you, try to roll away most often, as the most he can do is catch you in DACUS and maaaaybe another grab, which if you know how to DI the mortar, you'll take lol damage for it and get a possible opening.
Needless to say, snake won't do dthrow much against you if you're smart, he can't guarantee ftilt or utilt on you if you do it right.
And I may sound crazy with this, but aerial lucario if done really well will be nearly unfazed by a lot of snake's stuff, the problem is if he predicts things.
For stages, I personally prefer YI as the platform is nearly unreachable by explosives, helps lucario have a safe place, gives a lot of leeway offstage for lucario to try his edgeguard game for good damage, as well as that platform to help juggle if you get him up there. That and on a psychological note, the explosives are really easy to see lol.

 

[RT]

For mines, you can just walk/run up and powershield or throw a AS. They do last about 25 seconds I believe. And mines just disappear, they do not self-destruct.

For nades, don't forget about stripping, cooking, etc...why are they so good?

 

[phi1ny3]

I think I have a solution to stripping, but I'd have to test it more lol.