• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

Col. Stauffenberg

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
1,989
Location
San Diego <3
Do people think I'm arguing for Snake being a horrible matchup or Lucario being bad? I've never said anything of the sort.
It just offends my senses to see people saying Lucario is good at punishing. It's flat-out wrong.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
Do people think I'm arguing for Snake being a horrible matchup or Lucario being bad? I've never said anything of the sort.
It just offends my senses to see people saying Lucario is good at punishing. It's flat-out wrong.
Thats why I asked man, Lol. It was unclear at one point when you were talking about it LOL.

Anyway, we still need to keep a flow going. Anyone on CP stages?
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,636
Location
Irvine CA
Cleaning Your room sucks- to get my mind off it lets do some stage analysis:
Snake kills vertically, really well, Lucario wants to stay alive as long as possible and must be within killable %s to kill [in this match-up], So going to a smaller stage hoping to outlive snake will NOT work [generally], for this reason I'll skip small stages/stages with low ceilings.

In a conservative region:
Final Destination - Very little platforms to control, one of our best stages in general.
It might be the snakes ban though.


Delfino
- Although Constant stage changing can mess with their explosives, the stage's stop points will generally favor snake [Water, Walls to limit dthrow options etc], may be effective VS the unfamiliar,
meh pick.

Frigate - Some Lucarios' general pick, not too bad for snake, explosives are kinda hard to see... stage flips may work in our favor though... The left side doesn't really hinder snake too much since they recover high anyway. According to project vertical has a lower ceiling but I haven't experianced that too much <<. I myself wouldn't take them here but try and see for yourself.


Castle Siege
- My Personal Pick, 1st state is a little sketchy but I find it fine, 2nd state is great once the platforms are eliminated (and even then you can surprise snake with longer hitboxes, be warned though, it applies to his explosives [and utilt...] as well). 3rd Stage is FD/Lylat's ******* child with a smaller ceiling height. Imo 2/3 we are favored. Try it and see.


Yoshis Island
- same height as FD, as previously posted by Phil the explosives are quite easy to see here, and the stage is pretty small [in terms of one ledge to the other] so its not to hard to close distance on snake.

Smashville
- Ussually how stagestrike ends LOL, C4 is commonly placed on the platform so watchout, not too much different from FD other then the fact that the platform can mess around with things.


Non-Conservative Stages
:
Pictochat - high ceiling, explosives easier to see imo, the transformations can benefit both characters so be careful, during neutral state plays like FD with YI's sides, lower area below the stage.

Japes - Big ceiling, controlling the middle is key here, don't fall in the water <<

Places NOT to take snake to/ban:

Conservatives:
Halberd - Snake lower ceiling means snakes gonna kill you early, other then that not much to say, On the ship the attacks won't really change the battle that much, Claw is easy to dodge or shield on reaction, laser is easy to SDI, and the explosive is slowwww [but can kill rather easily].

Battlefield - Not nearly as bad as any other stage in this section, snake can set explosives and has good stage control here, its definitely winnable here but a little harder.

Lylat Cruise - meh... its not THAT bad, but definitely not that great, stage tilts and explosives are a little harder to see.

Brinstar - Its a smaller area, Snake will kill earllly << you can surprise snake with hitboxes lasting longer on the organic parts but don't expect too much.

Rainbow Cruise - Some Snakes HATE this stage, however some LOVE it [I have one of the latter within my area :dizzy: ] Theres a low ceiling here and if he lands a dthrow near the mini wall things can get pretty gay, Your time to shine VS snake is while ascending, but after that... be careful.


Non conservative
-
Green Greens - VERY SMALL STAGE, walls can be destroyed but while they're up can limit dthrow options, terrible terrible stage.

Corneria - Stupid Stupid Stupid, another small stage, not a lot of options for us if he's camping on the left side and the wall there can limit our dthrow options, our worst stage imo. Not really VS snake but in general.

Norfair - Although from the middle its the same height as a neutral on the other platforms its easy as hell to Die from utilt, snake can control the area with explosives well and generally he'll outlast you here. Not a common snake cp though.

Um Not sure:

Conservative:

Pokemon Stadium 1? - I don't play this stage too much... neutralish aera with clingable walls,
platforms are located on the sides only giving yourself open room in the middle.
-Water - Windmill can help you live longer and deal extra damage on snake, but the same can be said for the reverse, tech tech tech tech.
- Fire - Snake's dthrow seems easier to follow-up on here, not many advantages for you, stay on one side until it transforms back.
- Grass - Theres platforms and a tree that Snake can stick stuff, not much to say.
- Mountain - oh god this stage lol, Hope you get that left side or in the middle, because if snake has that side its hard to reach him, I would wait him out and powershield nades/nikita.


Non-Conservative Stages
:
Distant Planet - The only time I have played this stage was to camp on the left as olimar. The Leaf platforms fall if you stand on them, when water comes it blocks out the left side, you have to be a complete idiot to get thrown into the bulborb << I honestly have no idea.

Pirate Ship - even though the waters bad for us it isn't all that hard to avoid it and its not like snake can watercamp [Ike on the other hand...]. Bombs can get stupid surprise kills on both sides, getting snake in the air while everythings all floaty can be a boon but can also be stupid if you're trying to get back down. The Ceiling is higher then normal though.... idk about this one :dizzy:

My Opinion: Snake has better CPs on us than on him, if you live in a non-conservative region I highly recommend you either move out/pick up a secondary for the gay stages/convince the TO to ban the non-conservative/"gay" stages
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
You should mention Delphino, which imo is a decent CP against snake, as long as you stay away from side traps.
Also BF has some strengths and weaknesses that are ezploitable, like the fact that DACUS gets nerfed there, and some snakes actually don't like this stage as much as SV, where they're grenade placement isn't so messed up by platforms at times, although I would never try to land on the same platform as snake, his dthrow is nearly a CG on a small platform because of how much easier it gets to use.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,636
Location
Irvine CA
You should mention Delphino, which imo is a decent CP against snake, as long as you stay away from side traps.
Also BF has some strengths and weaknesses that are ezploitable, like the fact that DACUS gets nerfed there, and some snakes actually don't like this stage as much as SV, where they're grenade placement isn't so messed up by platforms at times, although I would never try to land on the same platform as snake, his dthrow is nearly a CG on a small platform because of how much easier it gets to use.
lolwut delfino was the 2nd stage I put ,-,

I really find myself having the most trouble on Battlefield from all 3 neutrals, how is Dacus nerfed there really?
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Oh whoops, I meant usmash, which is sometimes used in conjunction with grenades/ftilt to pressure more.
He can't control center with it, and can't use it very well on the sides, but that's how I see it.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
let us clear it up once and for all...

is it Delfino or Delphino? My PAL brawl says Delfino, so yeah. I see a lot of people says Delphino :/
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
Snake does better on starter stages and has a wider stage list to CP Lucario than vice versa, as Flame said.

- From the common starters -

Yoshi's Island - This is Lucario's best stage against Snake for a starter. Stage is rather small but it makes it easier to get to Snake. The tilting platform above can mess-up Snakes mines and camping a bit. If your opponent knows Lucario they will strike it or maybe even ban the stage vs him if CP comes around.

Final Destination - This is probably Lucario's second best choice. No platforms means Snake can't stage control as he would like to. It's more open so Lucario can take advantage of the open space to get at Snake without much fear.

Smashville - I hate how often this stage pops up after stage striking. Well this is Lucario's third best in which is kind of an even playing ground. Snake gets a fun moving platform to place mines and camp. Lucario gets open space to fight Snake. I don't think Lucario gains much here but compared the the bottom two it's a more preferable choice.

Lylat Cruiser - I don't think it's a really bad stage vs Snake and might be better than Snashville in some cases. But from what I've seen and played this appears to assist Snake more than it helps Lucario.

Battlefield - Snake excels here, no doubt about it. So many fun platforms for him to toy with and stage area to set up his control over it. This should be the first stage to strike against a Snake and one that I'd ban from CP.

- Counterpick stages -

Pokemon Stadium 1 - I've played here against Snakes, I didn't like it. It had a lower ceiling than BF and gave Snake new platforms and stage options with the other transofrmations. I wouldn't pick it.

Pokemon Stadium 2 - Contrary to stadium 1, this one has a few things that work better for Lucario. The air portion lets us keep Snake longer in the air to keep good juggling going. Ice isn't doing huge favors, everyone just slides when they do attacks. Electric is rather wierd, it can force Snake to recover but if he gets control of the center it may be tough to get it back. Rock just has a middle like wall in the center, less space to move but it means we might have to approach from the air. It's not bad at all, but like Frigate there is probably better.

Frigate - There may be a better counter pick than this, but as a general stage that is usually good for Lucario is works well. The only flaw with this stage is the ceiling, it's a bit low; other than that the stage work well for Lucario to wall cling and wall Snake offstage.

- Closing thoughts -

In general Yoshi's Island seems to be the ideal anti Snake Stage. Frigate, PS2, and Final Destination seem to be good choices as alternate canidates.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
The electric stage hurts snake more than lucario overall. Explosives are constantly being shoved off (no grenade camping) Lucario can deal with escalators better than snake can, and lucario imo can regain the middle ground pretty well, despite snake being a tough fight. I would consider the ice thing a good/bad thing against him, because of the general inability to space on the ground and avoid explosives (in this case just take it to the air) and he gets to try sliding utilts (maybe ftilts too, but I would think he'd suffer slide lag).
Rock imo is pretty much a break from it, snake can technically do more to you, but if you play it right, you'll have a rest period to get a fully charged AS, which is always good.
Overall I'd say it's actually a decent lucario stage.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I've had some problems getting the middle of the electric center back. If they camp under the platforms it can be a bit tricky to force them out without eating an utilt or ftilt.
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
From the looks of it, we are still having MU numbers being put out that are too mixed to give a solid choice if what Snake actually is. I would like for people to say the MU numbers now.
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
After playing against UltimateRazer a lot, playing a reverse main match to see the opposing side, and discussing it with him...it's in Snake's favor.

40:60. 45:55 at best.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Yeah, some of the points supporting 45:55 could be argued for D3 being in our favor lol (which while I think it's possibly easier than 40:60, isn't in our favor).
40:60 for my vote.
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,636
Location
Irvine CA
I think, at perfect level its 50-50.

however as humans we are susceptible to mistakes.

and generally its not as bad for snake to make a mistake as it for lucario.

and thats what makes me think its 55-45.



The scrub snake match-up is 60-40 on the account of just being hella boring at the 3 stocks Lucario to 1 Stock Snake. Especially after you die LOL.
why am i so bad at this game
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Snakes ridiculous good against lucario, since everyone of his move is a potential kill move
Not entirely a good argument to use, as most of them are either super stale or can be avoided relatively easily (except utilt <_<; ), considering jab3 can be DI'd, and all those aerials can be seen a mile away.
I can see this as possibly 45:55, but I'd have to look at how people like Lee treat it, because we are either doing the MU wrong, or really good snakes really just **** lucario at the apex of each other's metagames. I also would have to do a little "sleuthing" of my own on the MU again, but for now, I stand by 40:60.

Oh yeah, and we gotta rediscuss ROB at some point, imo there's no way it's even (it's in our favor)
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
If I recall, UltimateRazer told me that Lee has never won a tourney set against him during recent times. I don't know if this changed at NOKOAST, but assuming it hasn't, this is saying something. <_<
 

Gnes

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,666
Location
In Another Dimension...
Lee doesnt go Lucario against Razer because he believes he cant win with him(he hasn't one a set with him yet).

However Lee did beat Razer with Mk/Zss at no koast.
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
Lucario HAS to kill Snake first. And any mistake the Lucario makes can lead to a free ftilt/whatever. It's just a matchup where it takes Snake less effort to win than with Lucario.

And I'm not being negative...it's just the unfortunate truth. :ohwell:
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
Does Ally know the matchup? I don't know...how recently has Lee played him? :confused:

But Razer and Lee have played in tourney a few times. Razer knows the matchup because he actually gets frequent Lucario practice. And he's even used Lucario for fun. From my personal experience, it's always close, but I always end up at a much higher percent on the last stock. I'm sure Trela can vouch how silly the matchup is.

It's frustrating, but that's how it goes. :ohwell:
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
RT if you keep saying you're trash, then that last statement must mean the match is even lol. Razer is pretty good.
I don't think it's 35:65, but I can see why people say that.
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
I am trash. D:

I got last at a local tourney this past weekend, LOL! Although I did have a HUGE string of bad luck with tripping. <_<

But I plan on entering Hobo 20...watch me do really good for some reason.

My tourney record is just inconsistent like that, lol.

I'm just really inconsistent at this game.

Oh well. :)
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
I recently played ally at V-city. Its a 55:45 still in my opinion. I didn't do well, but I was getting rushed out the store by the owner x__x. I will get back to I'm at kosher boy if he goes, however. He does know the Lucario MU btw.
 

RT

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,673
Location
...
NNID
Rockettrainer
3DS FC
4038-6677-8162
Isn't that what we do too? (provided at the right percent, but some of our moves are also safer)
<_<;
Snake can do it ALL the time. Lucario needs damage to do it.

It's ********. <_<
 

iRJi

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
2,423
Oh yeah, he came down to NJ, didn't he?
ya, he did. I need to replay him. We were getting rushed out of the store when I was playing him so ya lol. He also agreed to rematch me.

Also, the tourney I went to I placed decently well. It was like a regional in there x___x.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253426

There's the results. I been out of the loop so long =[. I am going to place well for now on since I'm playing the game again though =]. But do you see who the hell went to that tourney? xD. It was like all of EC x__x.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Now that I saw how Lee did it, I can't say I would've done better, but it seemed that Lee was dropping juggles more than he should, and he made some fatal mistakes that I think were avoidable. I am definitely sure that the MU is not anywhere near 35:65, and I'm now on the fence for a ratio lol.
 
Top Bottom