SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Stealth Raptor]

idk if they are up yet, i just know they are recorded. jas lemme look under the channels

nope dont see it up yet

 

[D. Disciple]

He 3 stocked his ICs too.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario is such a gimmick against ICs. The CG on Lucario is sooooooooooooo easy lol, but getting it is tough .

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lucario is my ics counter, cause pikachu cant do **** to ics. its so fun to poke in the air and use yoru superior aerial mobility to get away, and lucario can gimp nana sooooo easily <3

 

[napZzz]

lucario is a bad character and snake rpaes him.

well, in reality I'd like to say that its like 55/45 snake. Because lucario can do alot of gay **** to snake and make it hard for him to touch the ground sometimes. Snaeks fat weight makes him easy to juggle too at the low percents, bu tif each stock plays out correctly the matchup should end up being pretty even

 

[hichez50]

Well 55-45 is still consider a nuetral match up so I think every agress that it should be changed to 55- 45 snake favor.

 

[napZzz]

yes but its a little different than even.

I'd say 6/4 but there are alot of stages lucario can go to that will give snake trouble and not much snake can go to outside some neutrals where he thrives the most imo

 

[iRJi]

By the looks of it, we have finally come to a choice on 55:45

Next match up is Santa Clau... Um King DeDeDe.

Go.

 

[culexus・wau]

uh.

this is one of the match-ups where you want to be on the side of the stage.

CP Areas that are small or with uneven ground.

like Lylat, Yoshis Island, and Castle Siege**

Try to force air combat and play very very safe on the ground.

** I am not crazy, I know what I'm talking about, If someone would like me to elaborate please ask

EDIT:oh yeah and before I forget.

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Seriously

 

[phi1ny3]

Even if he can't do dtilt after CG, he can always ftilt for damage.
bthrow also hurts a loooooot.

 

[HyperEnergy]

As long as you avoid entering DDD's grab range (easier done than said), DDD doesn't really have much on us.

 

[hichez50]

Well what about stage choice. Would norfair or rainbow cruise be a viable option to stay away from grabs. You sadly cant camp DDD that well since waddle Dee can get in the way of aura shpere.

 

[culexus・wau]

Well what about stage choice. Would norfair or rainbow cruise be a viable option to stay away from grabs. You sadly cant camp DDD that well since waddle Dee can get in the way of aura shpere.

Cruise is a terrible idea.

Get infinated on the ship and on the top he gets walkoff CGs and early uptilt kills.

DDD would switch on norfair I think lawl considering there are very few DDD only mains in this world I wouldn't try going there, plus its not always legal.

Like I said, Lylat, YI, Castle <3

I guess BF but some DDDs have legit practice there.

and wth you camp DDD fine with %

 

[CRASHiC]

Lylat? You mean the stage the platforms in range of our uptilt, room to chain grab, and a low ceiling?

 

[phi1ny3]

We can camp a looooot in this MU if you do it right, and with proper aerial use, you can get AS to connect more :D

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah i actually have fun with this matchup, stand on teh edge, spam bas, space tilts smsahes, hold sheild and make them think you are going to roll, and keep going. and if at ANY time i am inside of ddd, i roll to the opposite side and repeat. i like the matchup not to mention we can combo ddd like hell, and as lee did to lain, fair x 3 to dair ***** offstage

 

[hichez50]

Like I said, Lylat, YI, Castle <3

I guess BF but some DDDs have legit practice there.

and wth you camp DDD fine with %

Lylat seems dangerous just because if you get off stage he can back air you right under the stage then you are in a problem.

Castle seems like the best Option here just watch out for the 2nd part. The first part is where you should get most of the damage at. Also Norfair is a viable option if you know they wont switch its stupid not going their.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lemme go get Junebug, I'm sure he has a few words on the MU :D

 

[RT]

This is one of the few matchups where camping would almost certainly work, as long as you have the percent lead. Just watch out for those random Gordos. <_<

If Fogo sees this topic, he'll probably post some info. He told me some stuff a while ago, but I forgot most of it, LOL.

 

[Gates]

EDIT:oh yeah and before I forget.

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Don't Roll into Uptilt

Seriously

This.

You can still jump into it though.

 

[hichez50]

This is one of the few matchups where camping would almost certainly work, as long as you have the percent lead. Just watch out for those random Gordos. <_<

If Fogo sees this topic, he'll probably post some info. He told me some stuff a while ago, but I forgot most of it, LOL.

Camping does work but on FD(bad choice of a stage) and smashville waddle's can block aura shpere. You just have to stand around using fair which defiantly won't work when DDD is ahead. Any comments on comebacks?

 

[culexus・wau]

Lylat? You mean the stage the platforms in range of our uptilt, room to chain grab, and a low ceiling?

if the stage tilts it messes up CGs sometimes D:

Its no better then BFs Plats << and its not even lower then a normal neutrals.

@Hitchez: you should never be DIing that bad. especially VS DDD.

 

[AtotheZ]

Take dedede to Japes if you lose a round. You can camp pretty well and the boundaries are enormous so less to worry about up tilt. Norfair is also a good one bearing if it is legal.

As for the matchup itself I think it is 60:40 dedede's favor. His backair can control the matchup without necessarily grabbing at all, that is until lucario gets into lethal percents.

I hope this helped...

 

[Commander_Beef]

It IS 60:40 King Dedede anywhere AtotheZ.
To be honest, I really have no idea how Lucario should go about this matchup. All I can say is camping won't work and we'll beat you on every stage. Your best stage may be Yoshi's Island, but it won't affect the matchup that much considering how it is right now. I could just tell that Stauffy was playing his best while on our match in Battlefield in not getting chaingrabbed, but a smart King Dedede like myself can still win here. Sorry but I have no clue for Lucario's perspective here.

 

[phi1ny3]

So Junebug and I are nuts, (and even though I hear not many like him, Serin thinks too) that lucario is more even with D3 than previously thought. I want to hear from others though before a rebuttal is in order. All I can say is that the claims of it being 65:35 is a far stretch, Lucario CAN do stuff in this MU.

 

[manhunter098]

I too think 65:35 is ridiculous, its between 60:40 and 55:45. I think, that if you just play gay enough, (run away, charge up aura spheres safely try to bait DDD and punish him with AS) you can make it pretty winnable. Obviously there are more options than just that in the matchup, but thats going to be the bulk of what you are doing if you want to win, though this strategy isnt as necessary on stages that might favor us a little more.

Doing this also helps to get past the waddles.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Shield pressure is your friend here.

Dedede is a somewhat "big boned" king. Big target = shield poking. Multi-hit moves such as a FTilt that can be angled and DAir can help out here by preventing the perfect shielding of both hits.

You can pressure him with BAS, well placed FAirs, DAirs, etc. Be really careful with it though if you fail to space well he can:

A) Hit Lucario with his BAir Oos.
B) Shieldgrab >.>
C) Utilt

Utilt seems a lot slower and easier to react to compared to Snake's Utilt. I think they have around the same killing power, but I always DI D3's Utilt wrong for some reason... :Johns: We probably should find out the frame data for his Utilt and what options we have when we do something around it.

If he spaces a BAir wrongly when you're in the air you can swat him away with a FAir or combo him a lil' in return. Both of you hate being below one another in the air.

Does anyone know how well a spaced DSmash works against him when he's using his Up B at killable %s? I often see Lucarios get frame committed to an FSmash and D3 just evades it by going into his helpless state.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's also possible to space dair without being sheildgrabbed, for the record.

 

[iRJi]

Shield pressure is your friend here.

Dedede is a somewhat "big boned" king. Big target = shield poking. Multi-hit moves such as a FTilt that can be angled and DAir can help out here by preventing the perfect shielding of both hits.

You can pressure him with BAS, well placed FAirs, DAirs, etc. Be really careful with it though if you fail to space well he can:

A) Hit Lucario with his BAir Oos.
B) Shieldgrab >.>
C) Utilt

Utilt seems a lot slower and easier to react to compared to Snake's Utilt. I think they have around the same killing power, but I always DI D3's Utilt wrong for some reason... :Johns: We probably should find out the frame data for his Utilt and what options we have when we do something around it.

If he spaces a BAir wrongly when you're in the air you can swat him away with a FAir or combo him a lil' in return. Both of you hate being below one another in the air.

Does anyone know how well a spaced DSmash works against him when he's using his Up B at killable %s? I often see Lucarios get frame committed to an FSmash and D3 just evades it by going into his helpless state.

That's because your suppose to Usmash his recovery. By doing so yo cover both options in terms of him going for the stage, or him going for the ledge if he decides to try and move for it.

It's also possible to space dair without being sheildgrabbed, for the record.

Yes, this is true. But if you are not in reach for a grab hecan OoS Bair you, and also if your Dair doesnt move him far enough he can Utilt it as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah utilt is gay against Dair at high percents, but you gotta just get through it T_T

 

[iRJi]

Yeah utilt is gay against Dair at high percents, but you gotta just get through it T_T

Personally, the MU is not impossible. It is completely winnable, actually. but even with it winnable, I still think its Lucario's worse MU. Not because its hard, just the little options available to d3 is all he needs to take him to his grave. All you do is camp in the MU, and playing campy makes it so much easier. Keep yourself at the edge of the stage to minimize damage from grabs. Move out of the way when he gets close to you. Toss him off stage, and harass his poor recovery options.

 

[Fogo]

So Junebug and I are nuts, (and even though I hear not many like him, Serin thinks too) that lucario is more even with D3 than previously thought. I want to hear from others though before a rebuttal is in order. All I can say is that the claims of it being 65:35 is a far stretch, Lucario CAN do stuff in this MU.

I feel like it's 55:45, 60:40 at worst. This is coming from a Lucario standpoint.

I actually started playing lucario because I hated the DDD ditto and there were a lot of DDDs in my are at the time, so naturally I don't think it's that bad.

Look at the Pros and Cons.

Cons

* Lucario gets chaingrabbed

* Edgeguard is fairly easy

* DDD can kill early with (Only 2 of his moves can really be considered as "early kill
potential" If you're even decent at Luc or the MU)

Pros

* We can kill him early

* We have combo strings that are completely safe on shield.

* Edgeguarding is extremely easy.


It's in DDD's favor, but it's definitely not a horrible MU.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll post about this tomorrow or over the weekend.

While this isn't a terrible match-up, 60-40, I think this is Lucario's worst match-up in the game.

edit: If Swallow to buffered U-tilt works, be very careful of that.

 

[F1ZZ]

Sorry but I have no experience with the D3 MU so I can't help out with this. Can I suggest though he do the Olimar rediscussion next because I can't see how that MU is 55-45 for Olimar.

 

[iRJi]

Two things.

I am bringing it back to Snake for a second. You all remember when I made that Chart of punishing moves?

Character: Snake

NormalA(Jab)

(If not shielding): Shield, AS, Dtilt (This move clashes with too much stuff x_x
(If shielded): Jab, Grab, Retreat
(If perfect shielded): Jab, Grab, Retreat

Tilts

Ftilt

(If not shielding): AS, Retreat, Shield

(If shielded):

Close range: Grab or FP/Jab/Utilt
Mid range: Dash attack/ Retreat
Long range: Retreat

(If perfect shielded):

Close range: Jab/Grab or FP/Utilt
Mid range: Dash attack/ Retreat
Long range: Retreat

Utilt

(If not shielding): AS, Retreat, Shield
(If shielded): Dash attack/Grab/ Retreat
(If perfect shielded): Fair/Grab/Jab

Dtilt

(If not shielding): Dair, AS, Dash Attack

(If shielded):

Close range: Grab or FP/Jab/Utilt
Mid range: Dash attack/ Retreat
Long range: Retreat

(If perfect shielded):

Close range: Grab or FP/Jab/Utilt
Mid range: Dash attack/ Retreat

Smash Attacks

Fsmash

(If not shielding): Fsmash, Dash attack, Grab
(If shielded): Dash Grab, Dash attack, FP/Dtilt
(If perfect shielded): Jab or Dsmash, Grab, Dash Attack

Usmash

Replace section to Mortar Sliding at the bottom.

Dsmash

(If not shielding): AS, Jab, Grab
(If shielded): N/A
(If perfect shielded): N/A

Aerials

Uair

(If not shielding): Air Dodge, Shield
(If shielded): Jab, Retreat
(If perfect shielded): Fair, AS, Retreat

Bair

(If not shielding): Uair (From Underneath), AS, Dodge
(If shielded): Dair, AS, Grab
(If perfect shielded): Fair, Nair, AS

Dair

(If not shielding): AS, Retreat
(If shielded): Grab, Jab, Retreat
(If perfect shielded): N/A

Fair

(If not shielding): Fair, Uair, Dair
(If shielded): Nair, Utilt, Grab
(If perfect shielded): Nair, Utilt, Grab

Nair

(If not shielding): AS, Retreat
(If shielded): Grab, Jab, Retreat
(If perfect shielded): N/A

Specials

SideB

(If not shielding): AS, Shield, Dodge

DownB

(If not shielding): N/A
(If shielded): N/A
(If perfect shielded): N/A

UpB

(If not shielding): Bair, AS, Uair
(If shielded): N/A
(If perfect shielded): N/A

NormalB

(If not shielding): Grab, Improvise (=])
(If shielded): N/A
(If perfect shielded): N/A

Extras: Mortar Sliding

(If not shielding): AS, Jab,Dtilt
(If shielded): AS, Grab, Jab
(If perfect shielded): AS, Jab, grab


Notes This match, expect to shield a whole lot of his moves. While Snake has amazing Tilts, you can punish him with a few things after them. The main reason why Grab is listed as the best option after a number of his moves is because of a few good reasons.

Snake has a ******** extreme close range weakness (I am not talking about mid range, I am really talking about close) Mix ups are necessary for keeping your opponent guessing of course, but if snake is in range for a grab after his moves are initiated ( and as long as you keep in mid range of his attacks, he will be) he will have a bit of trouble. What I realized from this testing is that Snake isn't just bad in the air, he is awful in it. You want him in the air, and you tech. don't want to go up and chase him either. Snake needs to come down eventually, and he has limited options to have him land safely. All his aerial moves have a decent amount of landing lag, so if he casts one with out spacing it right, it wont be pretty for him. If he air dodges to dodge an attack, he can also be punished for that. If you get him into the air, basically just bait and trap him, the rewards are too good. If you do get the grab, Either Uthrow or Dthrow (Dthrow for damage, Uthrow for followups and trapping) and from there just follow up accordingly.

As for his recovery, The reason why Bair is the best option is because of the spacing really. Snake's recovery is easy to pick on, but if you get to close he can still attack out of it, leaving you in a bad position. Bair is suggested because it knocks him off the Cipher, while keeping your distances from his attacks. If he decides to Air dodge while you Bair, it will put him under you for you to get a easy Dair followup on. AS is 2nd choice because of what you can do after it. As while having the most safety from his attack options, if he air dodges it will be hard to follow up on. Uair is 3rd because of the power it has. It won't knock him off the Cipher until you are at reasonable percent, And also puts you at risk at his attacks since you have to get closer then what you would want. Like Bair, Uair has the follow up of Dair if snake try's to Air dodge past you though.

Tips: For his C4 recovery, I would practice Foot stooling the trajectory in where he gets launched, it will force him to do it again, making him rack up damage and you are still at an advantage. If you want to take the more offensive approach, Fair him away from the C4, he gets his recovery back, but you can harass him still.


Use that as my Export also when you make the export phil =D. I knew that would come in handy sooner or later.

As for D3

I will post videos later on since I am going to have my crew practice today. Just so happens my doubles member is a d3, and he is one of the best ones in jersey =D. Just wish he went to more tourneys =/. I will post vids, as well as a MU analysis.

 

[Gnes]

All I can say is camping won't work and we'll beat you on every stage

Lee Martin does not approve of this statement.

 

[Fogo]

Lee Martin does not approve of this statement.

Yeah he definitely just beat lain by camping on smashville.

 

[phi1ny3]

I really wanted to see that match haha :D

 

[F1ZZ]

I really wanted to see that match haha :D

Can i have a link to that match? I think I may of never seen it.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's pretty new, and I think Lee is getting NEO syndrome lol

Oh, and we did the Olimar rediscussion already