SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[A2ZOMG]

It was more of a geyser than a shower imo.

I thought it was just Mario being a pimp. He punches your gut and takes some money out of you.

Yeah and obviously don't do dumb things like D-airing his shield....I mean really, his Up-B is in fact the fastest out of shield attack in the game (discounting powershields).

 

[Aurasmash14]

Every once and awhile, the Lucario boards become awesome for a few hours. This is the time that the Lucario boards derail threads to wander to their own worlds, free from the confines of society, logic, and the concept of a single, unchangable topic of which we must discuss, like the days of old. It's a time of peace, a time of hope. A time of reminiscence, a time of friendship. You begin notice that behind every character and syntax on this site, there's a face, a person, a story. It's a time to share your joy, to share your face, to share your stories. It's during these moments that one really feels great to be alive, as they realize that they are never truly alone.





Then, some random-*** figlett always comes in out of nowhere to spoil our fun. It's like running a lawnmower through a barber shop. It's just not cool and it ends up ruining everyone's day.

1. Dont call me an ***-figglet kita.
2. you actually think I am one of those super serious players? heck no. im just saying we need to treat something like a MU thread with respect and not derail it. That is for the social/general/Other metagame threads.

 

[phi1ny3]

As much as I hate to be the harbinger of fun, Aurasmash has a point. MU discussion iz srs biz.
So what about stage selection?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario does better on Luigi's than Lucario due to the Jab lock. That's all that I can think of that really stands out.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

You can DI jab locks so they don't work, btw.

 

[phi1ny3]

I would think Frigate would be a good Lucario CP.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can DI jab locks so they don't work, btw.

You can only SDI them so that they don't last as long if they're done correctly as I recall.

I'll point out, Frigate happens to be one of my personal favorite Mario CPs. Mario's Cape and FLUDD is even more lethal on the first transformation against unspectacular recoveries. The 2nd transformation has a depression, which is something that Mario can abuse to avoid camping (his crouch is very low) and because he can do SH D-air -> B-air for some nice pressure tricks.

 

[phi1ny3]

I was wondering if we could get some WoT action going on, you know, RT style?
Also, after we wrap up, we'll do the next three AT THE SAME TIME.
Jiggz, Yoshi, and Lucas.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I was wondering if we could get some WoT action going on, you know, RT style?
Also, after we wrap up, we'll do the next three AT THE SAME TIME.
Jiggz, Yoshi, and Lucas.

w-what?? wait!!!!

*has exams for next week*

oh well, Jiggz and yoshi are rapefests for lucario anyway. Lucas... Idk i never fought a single lucas before..

 

[BoTastic!]

You can DI jab locks so they don't work, btw.

I made a semi ininite Jab lock on LM when Mendoza tried to DI out of it. He wish he never tried.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I made a semi ininite Jab lock on LM when Mendoza tried to DI out of it. He wish he never tried.

With the magic of quartercircle SDI I have a hard time believing this would work very often.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'll need a little more Zelda info, hopefully from the Zelda boards as well. Also, number verdict?
I think Frigate's a decent CP for both chars.

 

[iRJi]

With the magic of quartercircle SDI I have a hard time believing this would work very often.

Jab Locks are jab locks, actually. The one that is noticeable in DI is pikachu's and even then the player can just shift the lock into a different position. Not to mention go into a normal jab lock. Even with DI input, your only option is to stand, so it doesn't even really matter in the end. Lol.

 

[culexus・wau]

Zelda
If you keep zelda in fsmash tipper range the only way she can punish/outspeed it is with dash attack or stutterstep forward fsmash, and the latter trades hits which is really bad for zelda considering hers is a multihit. The former is just plain easy to shieldgrab and doesn't even reward much on hit.

Stay on the ground, keep yourself of dsmash & [running] upsmash range and zelda is going to have a hard time killing you.

Don't misspace your fairs in front of a grounded zelda either, thats just asking for a lightning kick to the crouch.

if you want to be cool you can DI dsmash into the ground and tech it if your hit from inside the stage x3

Zelda is fairly light and cannot kill you very reliably so the match-up isn't really that hard. its definitely our advantage.

As for stages:
Final Destination is just good in general for us.
Frigate can force her into her to land onstage with her recovery which is really bad for her.

and I always recommend castle siege, just because <3

as for mario I haven't played a good mario for AGES so I'm just gonna guess like 60-40 Lucario due to the fact mario doesn't have the easiest time killing Lucario and has trouble VS us in the air.

but watch out for that cape its so broken.

 

[RT]

I can only do Mario...

What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Fsmash: One of Mario's main kill moves. It must be sweetspotted at the flame to produce maximum knockback. It has okay range, because Mario takes a step forward before the move comes out.
-Usmash: Another kill move. This move has a good amount of range and has decent knockback.
-Fair: This is a move that most Marios will not use unless they are sure it hits, because it is slow to come out, has a lot of ending lag, and does not autocancel. However, be aware that this move does have spiking properties if sweetspotted.
-Bair: This is probably one of Mario's main approach moves. It has good range and priority, can combo, can be used for edgeguarding...probably his best overall move
-Fireball: It's a fireball...what else can be said. It comes out slow and can be canceled by many moves. It's main purpose is to annoy/distract and cover retreats.
-Cape: It's a reflector, so be careful when using Aura Sphere. Note that the it stays out deceptively longer than the actual animation indicates. Can be used for edgeguarding
-FLUDD: Similar to Squirtle's Water Gun attack, it can be used for edgeguarding, but most Mario's won't use it until you're actually using a recovery move.
-Super Jump Punch: This is Mario's main recovery move. Has decent priority, it's good OoS, and has some invincibility frames. It can be used for KOs off the top, but don't expect to see this happen that much.

What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Mario's recovery is not something to brag about, so try to go for some gimp kills if possible. He only has Super Jump Punch as his recovery move, so it's just predicting when he will use it.
-Be careful about spamming Fsmash because it can be caped.

Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Mario's killing power is mediocre, so you should definitely outlast Mario. Once you get Aura, go crazy.
-Lucario beats out Mario in the priority department.

Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Be careful about using fully charged Aura Spheres, because Mario can cape it back. Try to be smart when using them.
-Mario can cape any attack you use and turn you around, including Fsmash. Don't be caught offguard if this happens.
-Use your recovery effectively or risk getting caped/FLUDDed to death.

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
Not to sure on this part. I guess any place that doesn't have an edge to grab onto would definitely cause Mario problems during his recovery. Also, try to pick large stages, because you'll survive longer and Mario won't be able to kill.

Definitely in Lucario's favor. 60:40 if you want numbers...

 

[A2ZOMG]

-Fsmash: One of Mario's main kill moves. It must be sweetspotted at the flame to produce maximum knockback. It has okay range, because Mario takes a step forward before the move comes out.

I'm just being a nitpicker, but his F-smash has pretty ****ing huge range. Sweetspotting only changes the KO percent by like 10-15%.

And what I mean by huge range, his F-smash actually outranges Ike's F-smash.

-Fair: This is a move that most Marios will not use unless they are sure it hits, because it is slow to come out, has a lot of ending lag, and does not autocancel. However, be aware that this move does have spiking properties if sweetspotted.

F-air does autocancel. The only thing is the autocancel window happens a little too late for Mario to do it with a normal SH. You need to move to slightly lower elevation or time a fullhop to autocancel.

I'm a little upset you forgot Mario's D-air. It's super safe on block. =(

-Mario's killing power is mediocre, so you should definitely outlast Mario. Once you get Aura, go crazy.

His Up-angled F-smash is able to KO people easily in the 90s, so that's worth watching out for. His Up-smash isn't as strong as I'd like, but killing at around 125% is decent, considering how easy it is to land

Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
Not to sure on this part. I guess any place that doesn't have an edge to grab onto would definitely cause Mario problems during his recovery. Also, try to pick large stages, because you'll survive longer and Mario won't be able to kill.

You should probably avoid Luigi's Mansion. It's a large stage, but Mario is able to Jab lock there pretty easily.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And what I mean by huge range, his F-smash actually outranges Ike's F-smash.

This is down right wrong. I'll seriously post a vid of it if you disagree with this.

For this MU Lucario's Fsmash and Ftilt both out range his Fsmash.

 

[culexus・wau]

Being curious I went and tested out mario's fsmash range.

holy **** this things range is ****ing huge on stutterstep and longer on that salmon step thing. xX the latter is almost comparable to ours in range

it comes out faster then ours if they're both inputed at the right time but I'm not sure if it will punished a whiffed forward smash.

it seems to either get beat out, clank, or trade hits with our ftilt depending on the spacing [closest range -> farthest range]

However even though it has the range, it doesn't stop the fact that its realllllly easy to shield/roll away on reaction lol

 

[phi1ny3]

isn't stutterstep and salmonsmash synonymous, except that salmon smash is like only one direction?
I think the key is the lingering hitboxes might hit mario if he pulls his body through the smash before he launches his attack, but I'm not sure and it sounds very theoretical. Also, mario fsmash will be used similarly to ours, I have no clue the mario that I played in WA, but he was legit enough in knowing the tools for mario and would punish my misspaced aerials with fsmash, sort of like our own is used to trap things like aerials/AD.
Be cautious around it, the range is not to be underestimated.

 

[culexus・wau]

isn't stutterstep and salmonsmash synonymous, except that salmon smash is like only one direction?
I think the key is the lingering hitboxes might hit mario if he pulls his body through the smash before he launches his attack, but I'm not sure and it sounds very theoretical. Also, mario fsmash will be used similarly to ours, I have no clue the mario that I played in WA, but he was legit enough in knowing the tools for mario and would punish my misspaced aerials with fsmash, sort of like our own is used to trap things like aerials/AD.
Be cautious around it, the range is not to be underestimated.

Stutter is just back dash input + fsmash imput on the c-stick

Salmon is a front dash imput followed by a back dash imput + fsmash imput on the c-stick

at least thats what I remember it as


testing and comparing ranges is a ***** if your by yourself so I guess we won't really know for sure until I get someone to help me with it, or if anyone else would like to test the ranges.


Agreeing on the dangers of forward smash if your not careful though, its surprised me more then once and its generally really painful if you even get hit by one </3

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is down right wrong. I'll seriously post a vid of it if you disagree with this.

For this MU Lucario's Fsmash and Ftilt both out range his Fsmash.

I've actually spent hours testing ranges on attacks, and the only F-smashes that outrange Mario's reverse F-smash are Falco, Wolf, and DDD's F-smash (oh wait, I forgot to test ZSS's F-smash. No matter, it sucks too much). And they don't even outrange it by that much.

Mario's F-smash has more range than Lucario's F-smash, but Lucario's F-smash is more disjointed and has less ending lag. It's worthwhile to note that while Mario's regular F-smashes don't reach that far, the leanback of F-smash is MASSIVE. It's so massive that if you can get sword users to whiff on the leanback, you will outdistance their attack.

I like how you jump to conclusions and make false assumptions. It's so easy to point out how you're blatantly wrong when I've actually spent a lot of time learning attack data for many characters.

I'd love you to post a vid at any rate, because I know I'm correct, and I want more people to learn my character.

Yeah, I guess the real reason why I find Lucario hard to deal with is just because he's one of few characters that has random disjointed stuff that has less than 15 frames of ending lag. Meaning he's one of the harder characters for Mario to F-smash.

 

[phi1ny3]

hurtbox reduction is something that I've been working with, like I've tried incorporating crouch into my game more often to make aerial approaching even harder for some.
It's also the reason why we can grab snake out of the first ftilt if you PS, and it's even easier on the second.
Like I said though, in an actual clash between the two I'd prefer the lucario fsmash, mainly because I like the properties of it, but both are really good on punishing stuff, particularly each other's fsmash.
So I asked this question, but I think it sounds like instead of rediscussing C. Falcon, we're just going to do the export like planned and let that guy state why he thinks it's "even". Thanks Zelda and Mario boards!
Lucas, Jigglypuff, and Yoshi are the last!

Spoiler

Or are they?

 

[Veggie123]

some last minute Z input,

It is very difficult for Zelda to approach a Lucario playing campy/defensive. A Zelda that is forced to take the initiative is hindered by the fact that her approaches are predictable and otherwise terrible. Like stated earlier, Lucario's fsmash is extremely hard to punish for Zelda, which only adds to the problem of closing the distance. She's also easy to juggle in the air, mainly relying on airdodges to safely get back onto the stage (charged fsmash says hi). A well timed aura sphere can also make recovering a nightmare due to its sluggish nature, not that Lucario has any trouble gimping her anyway.

I disagree about Zelda having trouble killing Lucario. Bair out of shield can prove to be quite gruesome and can net that strategic early kill. Dsmash, while not as strong as some of the other moves within her arsenal, has almost all horizontal knockback and will put Lucario in an unfavorable position that can usually can force an up b, which iirc isn't the best recovery in the game. Uair and fair also kill very early, but are significantly harder to land than the aforementioned (uair is more believable if a Lucario mispaces a dair or something). Fresh dtilts at higher percents can pop Lucario up and can lead into a usmash/utilt which are also reliable kill moves. Lucario can try to dair her after he gets hit by a dtilt, but a smart Zelda can just shield and punish. Dair outranges usmash and trades with utilt, but it kind of just leaves Lucario up out in the open just waiting to eat a usmash/tilt if shielded.

Regardless, it's pretty bad for Zelda. Not hard counter bad, but any character that can force Zelda to approach give her some trouble.

6:4 Lucario's favor

 

[Kitamerby]

if you want to be cool you can DI dsmash into the ground and tech it if your hit from inside the stage x3

Hoshi- That works?


Bye guys, I'm gonna be spending the next few days learning to tech zelda's dsmash because it sounds freaking badass.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've actually spent hours testing ranges on attacks, and the only F-smashes that outrange Mario's reverse F-smash are Falco, Wolf, and DDD's F-smash (oh wait, I forgot to test ZSS's F-smash. No matter, it sucks too much). And they don't even outrange it by that much.

Mario's F-smash has more range than Lucario's F-smash, but Lucario's F-smash is more disjointed and has less ending lag. It's worthwhile to note that while Mario's regular F-smashes don't reach that far, the leanback of F-smash is MASSIVE. It's so massive that if you can get sword users to whiff on the leanback, you will outdistance their attack.

So, why does Falco's, Wolf's outrange it while Ike & Lucario's don't? Considering both of there Fsmashes are longer and more disjointed than the spacies Fsmashes?

I like how you jump to conclusions and make false assumptions. It's so easy to point out how you're blatantly wrong when I've actually spent a lot of time learning attack data for many characters.

I'd love you to post a vid at any rate, because I know I'm correct, and I want more people to learn my character.

More like I tested it after you posted the above. Mario's Fsmash has range but it will not be hitting Ike and Lucario out of Fsmash unless they mess up on spacing.

Shutter stepping just gives Mario a boost in movement, it doesn't exstend his hitbox on Fsmash. This does give him a huge surprise factor in which shutter stepping his Fsmash's gives a good push, simular to Wolf's Fsmash, but range wise it doesn't outrange attacks.

If Lucario and Ike both Space correctly they can still outrange it. Lucario can wiff a Fsmash if some characters are outside the range. When Mario shutter steps and wiff he puts himself within range of some characters disjointed attacks.

Yeah, I guess the real reason why I find Lucario hard to deal with is just because he's one of few characters that has random disjointed stuff that has less than 15 frames of ending lag. Meaning he's one of the harder characters for Mario to F-smash.

This part is correct.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, why does Falco's, Wolf's outrange it while Ike & Lucario's don't? Considering both of there Fsmashes are longer and more disjointed than the spacies Fsmashes?

Falco's F-smash is MASSIVELY disjointed aside from the fact he moves forward a lot while F-smashing. Wolf's F-smash is well...gay since it can punish virtually anything. Those attacks have more range than Lucario or Ike's F-smash. Plain and simple.

More like I tested it after you posted the above. Mario's Fsmash has range but it will not be hitting Ike and Lucario out of Fsmash unless they mess up on spacing.

No, it will easily hit Ike out of F-smash (which he shouldn't be using anyway). The leanback on regular F-smashes is massive enough to punish Ike's F-smash too.

Shutter stepping just gives Mario a boost in movement, it doesn't exstend his hitbox on Fsmash. This does give him a huge surprise factor in which shutter stepping his Fsmash's gives a good push, simular to Wolf's Fsmash, but range wise it doesn't outrange attacks.

All that matters when it comes to range is "can I hit him from x position?" Mario's F-smash hits away from a further x position than Ike's F-smash, and the hitbox on Mario's F-smash is already deceptively massive when you consider that Mario's F-smash has massive leanback and that his entire body is also a hitbox.

If Lucario and Ike both Space correctly they can still outrange it. Lucario can wiff a Fsmash if some characters are outside the range. When Mario shutter steps and wiff he puts himself within range of some characters disjointed attacks.

Ike's F-smash is so slow that I can just walk to outside of his F-smash range and then F-smash after it ends.

Either way, even before he F-smashes, I can reach him from further away, which means Ike is the one that needs to take caution before attacking.

By your definitions, you would be telling me that Donkey Kong or Bowser has bad range since "lol he extends his hurtbox when he attacks!" So? That doesn't matter much at all. Disjointed range only makes a real difference if it lingers.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

JP vs Lucario is somewhere between 60:40 and 75:25 Lucario. getting in on Lucario can be tough due to his aura reach. Lucarios ground game nullifies any sort of ground game JP has, not like its alot anyway. its easier for JP to fight when it comes to an air battle, where JP spends 75% of the time, but Lucarios no push over there and her Uair can't hit through his Dair....... gimping lucario isn't too hard, but thats all shes really got. as long as Lucario camps, zones carfully, and manages to recover if nocked offstage this matchup is pretty easy for him. be wary of pound and its wonky hitbox.

if you can manage to take JP somewhere like CS, or god forbid LM and any otherstage w/ little offstage area or is huge it makes it even easier for you. i can't really think of any stage lucario could do bad at against JP.

how is lucario when dealing w/ ledge camping?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Yoshi has some good priority on his USmash and FSmash iirc and I think it beats our FTilt.

Yoshi's safest air attack to horizontally approach with is his BAir. His DAir is not safe because we can just SDI and punish and that has some ending landing lag too. Expect Yoshi users to double jump into their UAir for super armor frames and an extended hitbox while doing it. You might want to just air dodge it then.

I don't know he entirety of the Draconic Reverse, but when you try to DI away from his BAir he can slide and hit you with one of his smashes.

17% Aura Spheres beat his Eggs (58% fresh FCAS thank John12346 for the info). Expect Egg spam if he's at the ledge and you're farther away. Keep in mind that you can force him to approach if you outprioritize his eggs. Speaking of priority be careful with using BAS when he's in the air, he can outprioritize them with most if not all of his air attacks.

Watch out for his pivot grab because that is a really long grab, so don't do anything too silly or laggy up close.

His FAir is slow and obvious, don't do anything laggy yourself to get hit by this. Please for the love of Aura don't do anything too obvious with ES. He could spike or semi-spike you with his FAir or DAir.

If he uses his Egg Roll learn the timing to grab it (although he should be rarely using this if at all during the match anyways).

If you get caught in the first hit of his Down B DI/SDI away ASAP.

I'm sure everyone knows this, but footstooling him out of his second jump offstage = insta-kill.

Overall this should be a somewhat easy match-up. Yoshi's killing game is a little subpar and Lucario has a much better projectile, range, and killing power.

If he can get you on a platform below him you can count on getting UAired. FD is always a nice choice. Japes if it is legal should do alright because his UAir won't be killing anytime soon. Be careful on his own Island and BF.

Probably 60:40 or 65:35 Lucario.

Lucas has a lot of tricks that make him quite threatening if you're not used to fighting him.

We all know about his PK Fire sending him incredible distances horizontally or vertically. Watch out for his PK Fiyah if you're going to run at him or if he tries to punish landing lag. He has a jab lock with his DTilt if he manages to get you trapped in it, which then leads to an easy FSmash for him. Watch out for him trapping you in his DAir onstage to his jab lock.

Another one of Lucas's "combos" I see is his NAir to UTilt. I try DI up to smack him with Lucario's DAir.

Be weary of spotdodging because you could get smacked by Lucas's DSmash.

Lucario won't probably get spiked unless he is too obvious with his ES.

Lucas's grab has incredible ending lag if he misses it.

Don't expect to gimp Lucas much.

By now I'm sure we all know not to be too obvious with Aura Sphere.

Outprioritize his PK Thunder with an FAir or a DAir if he's trying to juggle you in the air. If you get hit by all of PKT2 I think you take like 42% damage?

Don't DAir stall too much when you're above the stage because you could get trapped into Lucas's USmash (which hits the top platform of BF from the ground).

Unless you're falling for one if his early kill maneuvers Lucas seems to have sub-par killing potential and limited distance-wise with close range attacks. The stick is somewhat fast and will kill you 90-100%ish if you're not careful, but it should be pretty obvious. Horizontally though Lucario is much more disjointed and should deal well with attacks from all fronts. The PSI Magnet can kill you somewhat early offstage if you're not careful too.

I'm not too sure which stages you should be taking Lucas to quite honestly. Unless you're really comfortable with BF I wouldn't take him there, probably avoid Lylat too.

I'd say 60:40 Lucario's favor against Lucas, I think he's a bit harder than Yoshi.

Jigglypoooooffff is the lightest character in the game. You should have no problem killing her.

She can SDI your Jabs to hit you with Rest. Her Pound om noms shields, don't expect her to hit you with Rollout unless you're on like FD or something. Her disjointedness may make you think twice about approaching her, so throw some Aura Spheres at her if you are far enough away. You're floaty, so you shouldn't get juggled much by the time you hit mid %s.

Her best approaches on Lucario are horizontally.

Uh... You'll be killing her way before she can kill you if you don't get WOPed/gimped. She's got good speed in the air, but still overall kinda slow.

Watch out for her shieldpoking with DAir. Some of her best kills at high %s involve DAir -> follow up (FSmash, DSmash, etc.). She probably won't try to Rest you out of it (unless you're DIing into her for some reason...) because if she whiffs it, well you know what to do. Her boost smash has respectable range, but it should be easy to shield or just hit her out of it.

Uh what else is there to say...? You outcamp her badly. Your range just deflates her... I don't know what stages would be best either. FD allows her to use Rollout with a bit of freedom (for extra lulz time grabbing her out of it). She can kinda platform juggle you on BF and YI.

Probably 65:35 Lucario or better.

Edit: When Yoshi or Jiggs are ledge camping they can get stage spiked by Lucario's DAir if they aren't careful.

 

[Cold Fusion]

How well does Lucario deal with aircamping?

 

[Kitamerby]

How well does Lucario deal with aircamping?

Depends on the aerial used, honestly.


Also, I don't believe that Lucario would beat Lucas all that much. We have to take into account that Lucas has some extreme things going for him that poke at our weaknesses, after all. We can't do anything to him out of a grab release like we can do to Ness, iirc, he has a much, much better absorber, letting him absorb 2x the amount of damage he would have taken compared to Ness's 1.5, as well as having virtually the same range... and an attack at the end for added safety if the rolling out of it wasn't safe enough. If I remember right, it's faster too. He has superb killing smashes, some of which linger even longer than our moves. His superb dair allows him to possibly true combo into his even more superb fsmash. His PKT is infinitely better than Ness's for many purposes, allowing him to safely harrass people at a much greater frequency by hitting them multiple times, and best of all hitting them AWAY from the thunder, which makes it a very scary and very safe edgeguard. Lucas is virtually impossible to gimp and nearly impossible to edgeguard, as he has dozens of ways to make it back to the stage safely from virtually any angle and virtually any distance.

Oh, and he has this really mean trick that most Lucases probably don't know. Iirc when you're below 100% and going for the ledge, Lucas can run and do a charged hyphen smash up at the very edge of the stage. By doing this, it becomes an extremely ******** trap, as you cannot attack him with your ledge attack, and ANYTHING you do will be hit by Lucas's ******** usmash range, from rolling to ledgedrop if he releases it right. That thing has stupid range.

Also, Yoshi can outcamp us. I'm serious about this. Don't get into a full-out camping war with a Yoshi, or you'll lose every time. Also, don't used spaced Dairs against Yoshi, as his usmash and uair can and will beat it out every time. Yoshi juggles pretty well. Egg toss is lame(in a good way). Egg Lay is pretty good, as it is an air grab. Be EXTREMELY careful if you absolutely must approach Yoshi, as his pivot grab is insane. Dsmash has massive range and is a great gtfo move. Usmash is amazing. Fsmash is... mediocre, but it's okay I guess. his tilts are pretty good for spacing, but I don't believe they beat ours, other than maybe dtilt. They're quick though and still are pretty likely to hit regardless. Yoshi's Dash grab is good as well. Yoshi's fair is a horrid piece of ****. It's the second weakest spike in the game, and will probably NEVER kill you. They're better off using the horizontal hitbox, which is still weak, but better than the spike. Dair is weird. It's pretty bad for the most part, but they may use it if you're above a platform and vulnerable or something to land massive damage, even if it was nerfed from Melee. Nair is amazing. Fear the boot. You'll never gimp a Yoshi, for the most part unless they screw up majorly, as his ******** second jump combined with his superb airspeed and long airdodge makes him very, very hard to intercept, not to mention the fact that he's heavy as all hell. Yoshi's Bair is the approacher and comboer. It's awesome. Yoshi will probably be killing with uair, usmash, or if you screw up something, he may use Fsmash, Dsmash, or DownB to set up a kill. Grounded DownB(Yoshi Bomb) is powerful as hell, so be careful not to get caught by it, but remember that the aerial version is still crap. Oh, and if the Yoshi is good enough, he may use the super armor of his second jump with his strong Nair to perform a sort of pseudo-counter.

I think that's about it for Yoshi. Fear the usmash, uair, and Eggs, and he'd be a pain in the *** if he could jump out of shield or shieldgrab us properly.

 

[iRJi]

Depends on the aerial used, honestly.


Also, I don't believe that Lucario would beat Lucas all that much. We have to take into account that Lucas has some extreme things going for him that poke at our weaknesses, after all. We can't do anything to him out of a grab release like we can do to Ness, iirc, he has a much, much better absorber, letting him absorb 2x the amount of damage he would have taken compared to Ness's 1.5, as well as having virtually the same range... and an attack at the end for added safety if the rolling out of it wasn't safe enough. If I remember right, it's faster too. He has superb killing smashes, some of which linger even longer than our moves. His superb dair allows him to possibly true combo into his even more superb fsmash. His PKT is infinitely better than Ness's for many purposes, allowing him to safely harrass people at a much greater frequency by hitting them multiple times, and best of all hitting them AWAY from the thunder, which makes it a very scary and very safe edgeguard. Lucas is virtually impossible to gimp and nearly impossible to edgeguard, as he has dozens of ways to make it back to the stage safely from virtually any angle and virtually any distance.

Oh, and he has this really mean trick that most Lucases probably don't know. Iirc when you're below 100% and going for the ledge, Lucas can run and do a charged hyphen smash up at the very edge of the stage. By doing this, it becomes an extremely ******** trap, as you cannot attack him with your ledge attack, and ANYTHING you do will be hit by Lucas's ******** usmash range, from rolling to ledgedrop if he releases it right. That thing has stupid range.

Also, Yoshi can outcamp us. I'm serious about this. Don't get into a full-out camping war with a Yoshi, or you'll lose every time. Also, don't used spaced Dairs against Yoshi, as his usmash and uair can and will beat it out every time. Yoshi juggles pretty well. Egg toss is lame(in a good way). Egg Lay is pretty good, as it is an air grab. Be EXTREMELY careful if you absolutely must approach Yoshi, as his pivot grab is insane. Dsmash has massive range and is a great gtfo move. Usmash is amazing. Fsmash is... mediocre, but it's okay I guess. his tilts are pretty good for spacing, but I don't believe they beat ours, other than maybe dtilt. They're quick though and still are pretty likely to hit regardless. Yoshi's Dash grab is good as well. Yoshi's fair is a horrid piece of ****. It's the second weakest spike in the game, and will probably NEVER kill you. They're better off using the horizontal hitbox, which is still weak, but better than the spike. Dair is weird. It's pretty bad for the most part, but they may use it if you're above a platform and vulnerable or something to land massive damage, even if it was nerfed from Melee. Nair is amazing. Fear the boot. You'll never gimp a Yoshi, for the most part unless they screw up majorly, as his ******** second jump combined with his superb airspeed and long airdodge makes him very, very hard to intercept, not to mention the fact that he's heavy as all hell. Yoshi's Bair is the approacher and comboer. It's awesome. Yoshi will probably be killing with uair, usmash, or if you screw up something, he may use Fsmash, Dsmash, or DownB to set up a kill. Grounded DownB(Yoshi Bomb) is powerful as hell, so be careful not to get caught by it, but remember that the aerial version is still crap. Oh, and if the Yoshi is good enough, he may use the super armor of his second jump with his strong Nair to perform a sort of pseudo-counter.

I think that's about it for Yoshi. Fear the usmash, uair, and Eggs, and he'd be a pain in the *** if he could jump out of shield or shieldgrab us properly.

I 2nd both statements.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi's up-smash is actually... pretty ineffective against Lucario, sadly. Lucario has the best move in the game to deal with it: d-air. It will beat it every time. Every time. I've seen f-air beat it out sometimes, too. It's so sad to see one of Yoshi's best move become so useless just because of one other move.

Basically, Lucario should only be dying from u-airs (which actually can beat out your d-air, and sometimes we can use our heavy-armor in our double-jump to guarantee it) and Yoshi Bomb. I suppose it's possible to gimp Lucario, but it's not easy. You'd have to be recovering low, because there it's easy to land d-airs. Problem is, Lucario is so floaty that you'd most likely not be recovering low anyways.

I'm a bit too lazy to type more, but I'll leave one more comment: I never feel at an advantage whenever I fight Lucario. Whether he's above me, below me, on the opposite side of the stage, close-by... I feel like he has an answer to every possible situation.

 

[Kitamerby]

Yoshi's up-smash is actually... pretty ineffective against Lucario, sadly. Lucario has the best move in the game to deal with it: d-air. It will beat it every time. Every time. I've seen f-air beat it out sometimes, too. It's so sad to see one of Yoshi's best move become so useless just because of one other move.

Y'sure? I could've SWORN....

 

[bigman40]

It's not all true. Yoshi's hurtbox is his body (not including his head). So if we space the move enough to not hit the body, then we'll win everytime.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's also possible to hit Lucario while not being ENTIRELY under him, further distancing our hurtbox. At least in my experience.

 

[Maniclysane]

I guess I'll be the first to post on the Jigglypuff matchup...

It's basically 60:40 Lucario. He can outspace Jigglypuff for the most part, but I can't think of any kill moves he can really land on Jigglypuff, especially when her kills are mostly going to be gimps, thus preventing Lucario from getting to high percentages.

That's really it. Unless the 'Puff is really crafty, getting in can be problem. Lucarios weight is pretty perfect for chaining a few bairs, so getting him off stage shouldn't be hard either, once you get in.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Aura Sphere, UAir, DAir, Utilt, and Nair (maybe FTilt at OMFG high percents).

 

[Poltergust]

It's not all true. Yoshi's hurtbox is his body (not including his head). So if we space the move enough to not hit the body, then we'll win everytime.

Well... I suppose you're right. I find it better to pivot-grab Lucario as he is coming down from the air anyways, though. That way I won't risk any damage, since using his up-smash against Lucario is not really all that reliable.

 

[culexus・wau]

Lucas:
Main moves to look out for:
Dair: Has fair vertical range and if all the hits connect does 20% [fresh]. Spikes. Lucas also uses this to
get guaranteed kill/smash set-ups

The 4th hit of Dair will start to knock us down into the dtilt lockable animation at 89%
So as previously stated avoid it like the plague <_>

Nair: The main air to air aerial, often used to start a small string, common follow-ups include uptilt and jab.

Jab: comes out on frame 2 ircc, which means its instantly faster then our whole ground game Xx, Does 10% if full combo is completed [fresh], They might jab cancel it into aerials, tilts or smashes though. Its worth nothing that our jab outranges it ever so slightly, but don't rely on it.

Forward Smash: Comes out stupid fast, and can kill you early if you get hit on the sides, usually connected out of a dair -> dtilt. Reflects Aura Sphere but they'll probably Zap Magnet it anyway.

Upsmash: Huuuuuuuuuuge vertical range. Kills stupidly early and can also chain out the dair-dtilt set-up if they do it fast enough ircc. Do not challenge this from above.

Dsmash: Lucas will mainly use this to catch sidesteps, although once in a blue moon with repeated sidesteps you can dodge the whole move, but its not reccomended. If Lucas does this from a platform it covers an aerial below him as well.

PK Fire: Annoying, generally used as a safe way to rack up damage. Cancels out Aura Sphere at ANY %.

Zap Magnet: Will generally be used to absorb aura sphere, can stall him offstage, Can punish force palm flame and then zap you if you ever whiff the grab/decide for some reason to use force palm flame [wtf?]. Can

PK Thunder: Can Harass us offstage but nothing big, Not a lot of people like to challenge PKT2 so some Lucas users take advantage of that to use this as a safe repositioning move.
Unlike Ness UpB Lucas does not stop like a rock if it hits your shield.

Rope Snake: Their Tether, has a bigger tether range then it suggests, does literally nothing besides help his recovery though.

Lucas has plenty of ways to work around our Aura Sphere so it will have to be used smartly in this match-up, IRCC We can get 1 regrab off of grab release and thats it. I don't know too much about the match-up but from the time I played Oats I believe its like 50-50 or 55-45 Lucario's advantage.

Speaking of SD, someone get Stauffy in here to voice his opinion, I do believe he has played Oats a lotttt so he should know plenty on the match-up.

Jigglypuff


Just Win LOL. Fighting/Steel Resists Normal X4 so you should have no problems.

but seriously.

Moves to look out for:

Fair: Jigglypuff ussually saves this for killing, but if you meet a jiggly that can guarantee rests/doesn't care about staling fair her aggro game gets that much better.

if they do Fair early it can trade hits with our fair but otherwise we will outspeed it.

Bair: if they save fair for killing this is what you'll be seeing most of the time, I'm pretty sure we outspeed it, but idk about the range because I can't test Bair VS fair well by myself <_<
Just don't DI it horribly and you should be good.

Dair: Jigglypuff can either fullhop or SH this, SH has the ability to chain into rest [on trip only] or grab where FH can chain into an Aerial. around 150-ish it starts to make you bounce into the air a bit and that can catch you off guard. This Move can also severely eat up your shield.

Dash Attack: outspeeds our Fsmash

Spoiler

even at tipper range

<< [but don't tell the jigglys that its a secret], launches you into the air. The only ground move of jigglypuff that doesn't blatantly suck.

DACUS: This will surprise you every once in awhile, ussually used to catch us on landing when dash attack is too far to.

Pound: stupid stupid stupid stupid priority for some reason, rising pound is ussually used to recover after their momentum cancel to preserve jumps. Does a LOAD of shield damage so be careful when shielding this.

Rest: has invincibility on frame 1, um... kills you past 100... idk lol, will ussually only connect on a dair trip, if they whiff it you get a Free Charged Smash of your choice.

Sing: increases their edge sweetspot range, otherwise useless lol.

Jigglypuff is weird, and can be really easy or a annoying to deal with. Don't chase jigglypuff offstage with fairs if your like under 50%, gimps are stupid @_@. otherwise watch out for pound, fairs, and dairs as they can put some slight pressure on, Uptilt ussually beats them out though.

Something to keep in mind though, even though jigglypuff is light she can cancel momentum fairly well, so don't be freaked out if you see a stock tanking jigglypuff.

if anything, the match-up is REALLY hard for jigglypuff based on the fact that she has a real hard time killing us and that lets us reach high %s that let us kill her Reallllly early.

60-40 to 65-35 Lucario's advantage

 

[Aurasmash14]

omg... please dont finish this without meee!!!!!!

ok fine. just dont finish the yoshi export without meee!!!!!

**** you exams.

edit- hmm looks like i got some time.

yoshi vs lucario.

1. air game. - While both are good in the air, I believe lucario slightly wins in this area. however, you must be aware of how sick yoshi's bair is. it is fast, ranged, can combo into upair, dair, nair, and even has very little landing lag allowing him to string grounded attacks like ftilt or dsmash or do a dragonic reverse to get away or to space.. it is extremely useful against lucario and is something you need to watch out for. Its not completely unpunishable though, Fsmash can easily beat it, and utilt can be used to challenge it as well.

yoshi's nair is fast, and has decent power. it can be strung from dair for a shieldbreaker, or bair as a finisher. it has limited vertical range however, and fair can be used to beat it.

Yoshi's upair is powerful, and this will be the main way of killing lucario. As was said befor, dair cant beat it, and our only hope is to get out of the way. this thing kills lucario at around 110% on battlefield iirc. its a bit obvious though, and it can be predicted well.

Dair, while unsafe doing it on a grounded opponent because of lag, is incredible offstage. it also leads to a footstool, lasts long, and can be used while rising from a double jump to make a wall near the ledge to prevent recovery. try SD'ing diagonal left or diagonal right (downwards of course,) to get out or you'll eat 33%. onstage, its use diminishes, but can be used to crack you shield wide open, but its nothing you have to worry about. simple roll away and punish.

his forward air is a powerful spike, but there should be no way lucario should get hit by it. its completely obvious, slow and punishable.

Lucario can pull of his usual fair strings at yoshi, but dont expect it to last long. his airspeed is even faster than wario's and this will be taken advantage off. against an aerial happy yoshi stage control is important. use AS to keep him grounded and take the middle of the stage to limit his options. his superarmor wears off at higher percentages and lucario's own aura starts to break through at 70%. However, it is difficult to gimp him as an imminent 3 eggs will be chucked your way and then a 2nd jump +airdodge will get him past you easily. it is best to stay a small distance from the ledge and predict where he'll go. Yoshi can also counter aerial spammy lucario's with egglay, and while embarrassing, is nothing too serious unless it happens offstage. in which basically, you mash buttons to break out before it becomes unrecoverable.

2.groundgame - we win here to an extent. Our tilts easily outrange most of yoshi's ground attacks and our fsmash pwns any ground attacks yoshi has. however, it is best to stay an ftilt away as yoshi's attacks are fast. his jab is good, and his dsmash is stronger the closer you are to him. his grabs are slow, but they are ranged, and his pivot grab is just plain incredible. beware of this if you try to approach yoshi with the old fair-nair. he can easily dash away and grab you.

He also has problems killing in the ground, his fsmash wont be hitting you anytime soon if you keep to proper spacing. his upsmash is powerful and his dsmash is quick, but then again you wont be getting hit by these unless a) your straight above him or b) your right next to him. our Fsmash is pretty safe here, and is the best way to kill this heavyweight.

Yoshi's shield stinks. it cant be shieldpoked, but he cant jump from it either. Plus he lags when he removes his shield.his standing grab is also very slow. this makes dairing it safe, and fair-nair crossups even safer.
once he retreats to his shield, you basically have the upper hand. fair nair crossup-FPgrab are on of my favourites to use at it, and he cant get away. his roll is terrible. it can actually be punished with a strutterstep fsmash as the he doesnt go very far and he still needs to remove the shield if he's to get out.

his grounded specials are nothing amazing, as egglay is a little short on effectiveness here, although faster than his grab, and his eggroll is easily outprioritize if you makle sure to kill it before it picks up speed.
his bomb is fast, and can be used as a surprise, although it is much more useful as the bombslide.

3. Projectiles- yoshi wins here. Eggs are as annoying as annoying can possible be. you cannot fair through them, so it can be used to stop approches, they aid in yoshi's recvery now, so expect 3 eggs being lobbed into the stage . and their versatility means you WILL NEVER win a exchange of projectiles from stage to stage. It is also used for harrassing lucario's recovery if he's too far for yoshi to risk it. AS plows through these eggs like a tractor, but is easily avoided thanks to their airspeed+airdodge, so it is best used for stage control or harrasment.

4. stages- i'd say take him to frigate, and other stages where it reduces lucario's chances of getting killed or places which reduce eggs YI brawl is ok, but remember he rocks in this stage as well. for neutrals try FD.

overall, i say its 65-35 lucario. Yoshi is a formidable opponent if you don't know him well, but after getting used to him, you realize he just doesnt have what it takes to get at lucario. Problems in killing are also a factor here, and lucario can live to 150% without too many problems. however, yoshi's eggs are great nuisances, and his weight makes him live to lucario's percentages.


hope you like it guys. im missing out on study time for this.