SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[phi1ny3]

Zelda and Mario are up for discussion!

 

[ksizl4life]

I Dont Come IN here Much So Im Just Gonna leve my thoght on Lucario mach ups (Hope you dont flame me 4 it, im just trying to help out some..)


LUCARIO Mach up List By IceDX

Meta Knight : 35/65
Falco : 45/55
Marth : 40/60
King Dedede : 40/60
Pit : 50/50
Snake: 40/60
Wario :45/55
:shiek:Zelda/Sheik : 45/55
Diddy Kong : 55/45
Mr. Game & Watch: 40/60
Fox: 40/60
Olimar: 45/55
Zero Suit Samus : 50/50
Wolf : 50/50
Peach : 60/40
Ice Climbers : 40/60
Pikachu : 60/40
R.O.B.: 55/45
Toon Link : 60/40
Lucario : ?
Ike : 45/55
Pokémon Trainer : 60/40
Kirby : 60/40
Mario : 65/35
Luigi : 60/40
Lucas 50/50
Donkey Kong : 45/55
Yoshi : 65/35
Sonic : 70/30
Link : 60/40
Ness : 60/40
Bowser : 60/40
Samus : 60/40
Captain Falcon : 60/40
Jigglypuff : 65/35
Ganondorf 65/35




BTW: I vote for Zelda To be discussed Next...........

sorry but your on drugs pal.

 

[Kitamerby]

If he has wtfhax timing and spacing he can get a sweetspot knee on us out of UpB though, in theory.

I've seen some Falcons get insanely good at predicting recoveries and timing knees. I've seen a Falcon that can consistantly knee pikachus out of Quick Attacks, spacies out of illusions/phantasms, and hell I've been kneed out of ES once or twice. 'Twas awesome.

Dude are you kidding? Lucario's jumps are enormous and extreme speed is decent in height.

Extremespeed is actually quite excellent in height for recovery specials.

Your description of lucario's smashes are also a bit exaggerated. Only Fsmash has very very distasteful lag and even then it is made up for with great power, range, Transcendant priority and IASA frames. stuff CF unfortunately doesnt have in his smashes. (except for power of course)

Fsmash is only "laggy" upon startup. It has very little cooldown. Dsmash is very bad with cooldown iirc, with quite a bit of startup, and Usmash is somewhat laggy on startup, and extremely bad with cooldown. Also, Falcon's smashes are both high in priority(damage and range), and other than usmash, are FASTER than our smashes, as well! (And on a funnier note, Ganon's Fsmash, Dsmash, and ftilt are all faster than our versions, just like Falcon!) Meanwhile, Falcon's smashes only have moderate to slightly above average kill power. They're not that strong anymore. :<

Seems like you got it all backwards.

Also Lucario really wont be dying at low percents against ganon unless he got directly hit by a warlock punch. Aura sphere also gains power and priority with damage and Ganon cant plow through it when lucario is at mid percent. His weight is just another reason for us to smile, If Ganon misses an attack, he is going to get combo'd until he weeps.

Everything Ganon has kills at like 50. If Ganon does start to land hits, it's sure as hell possible to die early. Even his SPIKE kills at 90.

and one last thing. nearly all our attacks have disjointed hitboxes. all with transcendant priority on aura bursts. Not particularly as gay as MK but still pretty good for us :D

Can't argue with facts, at least.

I said 'smaller' jumps, not small. By no means are his jumps poor. CF jumps higher, but his faster falling speed means he doesn't go much higher anyway. And ExtremeSpeed can't hit ledgehoggers, which is more what I was getting at. Falcon Dive goes higher vertically than ExtremeSpeed and can hit them, though.

Falcon Dive goes slightly lower than ExtremeSpeed iirc, either that or they're the same range. Falcon may get more distance out of it with that amazing angle when he's moving forwards, though. Too lazy to check.

His smashes have below average knockback and higher lag time, unless he's at higher percents. Same with Aura Sphere. Obviously CF's going to have a hard time then, but with Ganondorf's powerful attacks, you aren't really going to get that power very early. You can gimp them both incredibly easily all the same.

Lag doesn't decrease with aura.

Small corrections good sir. i have the replies in green.

Please stop responding with that method. Use multiquotes instead. Your method makes it difficult to respond to because quotes don't show up more than once, so I have to constantly look back at your post in another tab. :\

Anyways, we can't combo Yoshi or Samus (or most anyone at all for that matter) anywhere after like 30%. Wallclings aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card, nor are they even all that safe for that matter most of the time. I covered the "laggy" smashes, as well as ganon's stuff already so I won't repeat myself twice in a post.

Aurasphere is an energy projectile my friend. Im talking about those bursts that come out of lucario whenever he attacks. A good example will be Fsmash. If you attack the aura blast with even the strongest attack, the aura blast just passes straight through. However, if you clank with the body hitbox before getting hit by the aura hitbox, you wont get hurt see? There is no thread that says so, you just have to see for yourself.

You can outprioritize the body box. In fact, it's usually rather easy, since Lucario has crap damage output at low % + staling.

Stopped reading after MK.

I wouldn't be surprised if we lost that badly to MK, honestly. It's a pretty hell matchup.

fruck no dude... MK is NOT that bad. we arent R.O.B after all.

Of course. We're worse than ROB (in most other categories).

My vote would be for Zelda. I think she would probably give Lucario the most difficulty out of those 5.

Meh, doubt it, honestly. Lucas is probably the hardest character we have left. I wouldn't be surprised if he beat us slightly with his fsmash that just so happens to be even more broken than ours.

I vote Zelda anyways. It's fun watching Zelda/Sheik mains try to convince you that they're high tier together. <3

 

[Aurasmash14]

T__T....


wait a minute.. you sure about the ganon thing? I usually live to good percents against ganons.

Btw the ROB comment was unneccesary. you know exactly what i was talking about.

I never said it was difficult to outprioritize Fsmash's body hitbox.

I dun no how to use multiquotes without getting my stupid page to actually show up.

Well, technically we cant really combo ANYONE at all. though im pretty sure strings still work on yoshi and samus after 30%. around 50-60% is where it gets too easy to escape.

Hi Kita. :D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't be surprised if we lost that badly to MK, honestly. It's a pretty hell matchup.

DDD is more threatening than MK.

Anyways that aside Zelda and Mario.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think Zelda vs Lucario is about 60:40 Lucario. you can/should camp to your hearts content cause Zelda can stop approaches, but can't approach very well. her dtilt can cancel out non charged aura spears and i think that goes until lucario gets to <70%. i haven't fought many lucarios though, mostly just rollycarios who camp and wall out w/ Fsmash. i only know approaches w/ Fair, but does he have any others?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

her dtilt can cancel out non charged aura spears and i think that goes until lucario gets to <70%.

Oh, it goes way further than that. Go here to see all the things from Lucario Zelda actually can cancel with Dtilt.

I'm somewhat in a hurry right now, so for now I'll only say that you have advantage against Zelda as long as you camp. I'll come back to comment and give a longer explanation later if I have time/there's a need for it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Chances are most of those clanked with his body hitbox, there is no way dtilt cancels the actual aura hitboxes, they are transcendent.
Then again, dtilt is kind of a close-range move, so it makes sense -_-

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Chances are most of those clanked with his body hitbox, there is no way dtilt cancels the actual aura hitboxes, they are transcendent.

Absolutely true, that's also part of the reason why it completely stops working when his damage rises as his aura range increases as well.

Edit: Also,Dtilt is often used as a long-ranged poke move, not in close-range. Zelda generally tries to avoid too close-ranged fights and capitalize on her range.

 

[Finman702]

Zeldas dtilt can get dangerous as a lock around 50%, and will pop you up at about 100+ which when that happens I go to utilt ftw, in short dtilt is something to watch out for.

Stage wise, I personally hate japes. I always have a hard time getting out of the water with FWs long start up I fall right back in.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Against Zelda you want to play wisely on the ground, don't be too hasty to jump at her when she's on the ground because she will hit ya easily (one of her smashes, her neutral B, or SH lightning kicks). Her Neutral B is a pretty good GTFO move and I think it has invincibility frames, but I'm not sure. Just don't spam Aura Spheres mindlessly.

Your air attacks > her air attacks. You can SDI out of Zelda's FSmash and USmash. Watch out for her Dtilt (causes tripping) to DSmash (SDI away when hit by her Dtilt). You outprioritize her Din's Fire with FAir and UAir too I think. Din's Fire is generally pretty laggy and will put her in a helpless state if she's in the air (don't expect her to do it in the air much). Keep an Aura Sphere handy if you have the opportunity to hit her out of Din's Fire. If you can read it well enough you can use a Reverse Double Team to get closer to her.

Stay away from the edge if she's trying to kill you with her FSmash, since its multi-hit you can get pushed off and hit without much of a chance to SDI at all.

Her Utilt kills somewhat early. If she is using her Up B she might try to hit you out of it, but if you're in the air it'll be pretty hard for her to hit you when doing that. She might also try to use it to space, but it is somewhat laggy, so you can Aura Sphere her out of it.

Overall though as far as CQC goes your FSmash outranges her and gives her a really hard time. Don't get too DAir happy if she's grounded because she can easily punish you for it with her USmash, Utilt, or Uair.

When I think about spacing against her its really similar to fighting Snake (slow, easy to juggle, can't DAir spam due to Up tilts killing early, etc.). If you know what you're doing and can space the match-up is probably around 60:40 or 65:35 Lucario's favor. Also ban/strike BF and other stages that let her harass you with her utilt, usmash, etc.

I don't know the Mario match-up very well, but I'll add what I know. Many Marios commonly boast about their Cape stuff, which gets pretty annoying when trying to approach him. Sometimes you will not want to outprioritize FLUDD with your FAir because it makes you lag in the air for some reason and you can get hit out of that if Mario's close enough. Mario's Fsmash's sweetspot kills a little early too, so watch out for it. He will use DAir to try to shieldpoke you, so if you know you will get hit you might want to try to DI/SDI up and smack him with Lucario's DAir.

You outprioritize the fireballs with your FAir, so you know what to do... His DSmash is pretty quick and has good priority, so be careful if you pressure him when too close. His back air has an annoying disjointed hitbox, so be mindful of that. Lucario's FSmash outranges pretty much everything he can throw at you. Space wisely and punish landing lag.

If you're recovering and if he goes to cape you and you know you'll get hit by it angle your ES up and you'll be propelled upwards which will mean that you'll likely get back on the stage, but will probably get hit, but hey its better than dying.

I'm having a really hard time figuring out when to use Aura Sphere in this match-up aside from a few mindgames (stupid cape). I'd appreciate some help in this... I'm not sure what stages are good or bad in this match-up either...

Hope this helps.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find Lucario annoyingly hard to deal with in general. Lucario is a character that is hard to juggle consistently, he has super safe KO moves, hard to punish dodges, and disjointed range on everything. Yeah. And I suck at powershielding. =(

Lucario is pretty floaty, so as I recall, he's one of those characters who Mario can easily Jab D-smash (in that it's unblockable).

Mario doesn't have any really obvious advantages in this matchup from what I can tell (aside from being faster), although he can edgeguard like a pro with N-air, FLUDD, and Cape shenanigans. Lucario's F-smash is also so annoyingly safe that it's one of those few random attacks he can just throw out and it never gets punished by Mario's F-smash.

In general though you'll want to keep in mind Mario's F-smash range because it's one of the longest ranged F-smashes in the entire game, and it KOs pretty decently even when not sweetspotted.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario : 65/35

I hope you aren't serious about this. Its 55:45 Lucario. I'm on lunch break at school and it's gonna end soon so I'll put a few things.

We outcamp you. Our fireballs are a much better projectile to spam, edgeguard and possibly gimp you. Your AS probably won't work on us because we have the cape and we can simply reflect it. You are heavy so we can kinda juggle you. I'm not sure if your dair will stop our juggling at low percents. Gimping for us won't be easy, but it is possible. My first kill on a professional level was a gimp on Zucco. I lost to him though. Good player.

More to come later.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We outcamp you. Our fireballs are a much better projectile to spam,

Fireball isn't going to make Lucario approach.

edgeguard and possibly gimp you.

Cape is something to watchout for.

Your AS probably won't work on us because we have the cape and we can simply reflect it.

Then we don't spam it, we shouldn't in most MU's anyways.

You are heavy so we can kinda juggle you.

Lucario is floaty and light, what are you smoking?

I'm not sure if your dair will stop our juggling at low percents.

It's his faster aerial with good range.

Gimping for us won't be easy, but it is possible.

It is possible both ways.

 

[phi1ny3]

I hope you aren't serious about this. Its 55:45 Lucario. I'm on lunch break at school and it's gonna end soon so I'll put a few things.

We outcamp you. Our fireballs are a much better projectile to spam, edgeguard and possibly gimp you. Your AS probably won't work on us because we have the cape and we can simply reflect it. You are heavy so we can kinda juggle you. I'm not sure if your dair will stop our juggling at low percents. Gimping for us won't be easy, but it is possible. My first kill on a professional level was a gimp on Zucco. I lost to him though. Good player.

More to come later.

His tier list was opinionated, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Honestly I think it's in the 55:45-60:40 range, I forgot about the "lucario super jump" with mario's cape though, but now that I think about it, it would actually be a plausible trick against cape when recovering from below.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I'm not sure if your dair will stop our juggling at low percents.

It will. Welcome to Brawl.

Uhh...Zelda...*shrug*. Just win LOL.
-DD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh, it goes way further than that. Go here to see all the things from Lucario Zelda actually can cancel with Dtilt.

lol i forgot about that thread, but i was just focusing on the camping since thats mostly what i've delt w/ against lucarios.

Against Zelda you want to play wisely on the ground, don't be too hasty to jump at her when she's on the ground because she will hit ya easily (one of her smashes, her neutral B, or SH lightning kicks). Her Neutral B is a pretty good GTFO move and I think it has invincibility frames, but I'm not sure. Just don't spam Aura Spheres mindlessly.

if you jump at her Zelda will probably attempt to Usmash or jab you. as for nayrus, yes it does have invincibility frames, i forget where they start, but i'd use it only if you have AS charged in attempts to reflect, or you get rolly.

Your air attacks > her air attacks.

thats why i wouldn't really attempt a SHFair/Bair often. zelda can only really win air combat if your above her.

If she is using her Up B she might try to hit you out of it, but if you're in the air it'll be pretty hard for her to hit you when doing that. She might also try to use it to space, but it is somewhat laggy, so you can Aura Sphere her out of it.

naw upB proably won't be used to hit unless you were hanging on the edge or something and not invincible, or ledgewarping, Zelda can space around better just by running/walking.

Don't get too DAir happy if she's grounded because she can easily punish you for it with her USmash, Utilt, or Uair.

oh so she can Usmash OoS his Dair? last few lucaros i played were on wifi so idk if that was just lag assisted or not.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Her Neutral B is a pretty good GTFO move and I think it has invincibility frames, but I'm not sure.

It has invincibility frames and is good for punishing rolls/spotdodges + can also be used for momentum canceling, but otherwise you shouldn't be too afraid of this move. It won't kill or cause too much damage and can't be used to approach. It also is highly punishable by virtually anything if you shield it or if she uses it at a wrong time.

Watch out for her Dtilt (causes tripping) to DSmash (SDI away when hit by her Dtilt).

If Dtilt trips at low percents, Zelda'll probably follow with grab as that's her most damaging option. If you know she's going to use Dsmash instead (happens mostly when you're at the higher percents) DI down and tech it. SDI away to escape her Dtilt lock.

Stay away from the edge if she's trying to kill you with her FSmash, since its multi-hit you can get pushed off and hit without much of a chance to SDI at all..

Also watch out for jab => Dtilt near the edge. It's quaranteed and might spike you/make you open for punishment.

If she is using her Up B she might try to hit you out of it, but if you're in the air it'll be pretty hard for her to hit you when doing that. She might also try to use it to space, but it is somewhat laggy, so you can Aura Sphere her out of it.

Any good Zelda'll never try to hit you with Farore's Wind, especially if you're in the air. The move has half a second lag both on startup and cooldown, so whenever she's forced to use it get ready to punish. She can cancel the ending lag by teleporting to the ledge from a correct distance away (the ledgewarping Jiggly was referring to) but that's not a huge concern. It's mostly used for landing a surprise power aerial.

When she's recovering she'll most likely try to sweetspot the ledge, so time your edgehog to kill her or force her to land on stage. You can also punish her startup with your aerials or AS.

Overall though as far as CQC goes your FSmash outranges her and gives her a really hard time. Don't get too DAir happy if she's grounded because she can easily punish you for it with her USmash, Utilt, or Uair.

Lucario's Fsmash isn't too big of a problem. It's highly unpunishable, but the slow-ish startup prevents it from being too dangerous. Zelda's Fsmash also has farely good range and is quicker on startup than yours, so in to successively hold her off with your Fsmash alone your spacing would have to be perfect.

Likewise, Zelda's Utilt can actually outrange your Dair (vertically) but is extremely hard to time for that.

Also ban/strike BF and other stages that let her harass you with her utilt, usmash, etc.

If it's legal, ban Luigi's. It's clearly her best stage.

 

[Kitamerby]

Fireball isn't going to make Lucario approach.

Probably not, but it makes his approaches hell to deal with. Even when we can beat it out later on with Aura Sphere, if he uses it wisely it'll always be a great annoyance imo. :< To me it seems more like a super awesome offensive approaching frame-trapping projectile than a camping tool. Maybe I need to fight a campy Mario. I haven't fought one of those yet. <<

Cape is something to watchout for.

I usually don't see myself being edgeguarded by Mario all that much. Mario's edgeguard games didn't seem to effect me last time I fought a good Mario, as all I had to do was DI properly, recover high, and he wouldn't be able to do much to abuse my recovery. I honestly forget if our fair beats his bair, so I don't really remember much about how I stifled his gimping attempts when I was vulnerable. It wasn't THAT hard, though.

Then we don't spam it, we shouldn't in most MU's anyways.

debatable imo.
Also the cape isn't exactly the world's most reliable reflector. I don't think it comes out all that quickly iirc, so it may not be THAT great for protection against Aura Sphere, especially offstage, but I dunno. It's been awhile since I've fought a good Mario. :<

Lucario is floaty and light, what are you smoking?

Lucario is the spot heavier than Mario both vertically and horizontally iirc.

It is possible both ways.

Imo, Lucario can gimp Mario easier than Mario can gimp Lucario, but that may just be bias speaking. Both recoveries are vulnerable in their own way. Mario has few, but not necessarily bad, protection options, and his mix-up options are in a way more limited on recovery due to his lack of sheer distance and less natural floatiness. This means that his recovery is in general easy to predict, as if he tries recovering in any complex fashion, such as moving away and then moving forwards, airdodging too much, etc., he may miss or not even reach the ledge entirely. However, he has the tools to make himself extremely aggravating to edge-guard.


Our dair, bair, fair, and aura sphere harassment really seems to irritate Mario offstage with his really short, linear recovery and only his cape and fireballs to protect his front. Occasionally, though, the latter will sometimes not matter if we can land a lucky un-DI'd fthrow, dair, nair, or if we get him in a string of fairs. (Rare for Fthrow, but it happens and is actually somewhat viable due to its speed. Mario mains just need to remember to always buffer/hold Up when grabbed by Lucario, or being punished by him at any point, really.) Otherwise, fireballs are really **** good and make him surprisingly hard to edgeguard. The former is harder to get around, as the cape is really **** good, but occasionally you can use a fake-out bair to hit him through it, or jump out while he's far out to make him sideB prematurely, then fair or nair him, or toss a sphere to bait a cape or airdodge, then jump out and continue edgeguarding. Lastly, watch out for the up B stagespike. Most characters can stagespike with their up B, but Mario's is special, generally OHKO'ing even at very low %. Not sure if it OHKO's at 0. Just make sure your edgehogs are perfect, or learn to ledgetech. Mario probably will be getting gimped more often than Lucario imo. His recovery is linear and easy to predict, but the cape and fireballs make it **** safe. It's somewhat hard to gimp Mario overall, as it almost entirely involves him messing up somehow from you baiting him with your good offstage options. <<


Meanwhile, we're vulnerable to his annoying bair, cape, more bair, sometimes fireballs if you go too low, and the ever-present necessary evil that is ExtremeSpeed. Mario honestly has a much harder time gimping us than other characters. To protect ourselves, we have a few protection options of our own, as well as a much, much more variable recovery, allowing us to perform complex aerial evasions while still being able to reach the ledge somewhat safely. Our floatiness lets us airdodge and move around without worry, letting us recover at our own pace when we feel like it. To protect ourselves, we have a few options, but they're arguably better than Mario's in my opinion, which is probably sheer bias. Fair is only really okay if he's jumping out at you directly while facing forwards, which should be rare unless he's the kind of Mario who loves to spike people. Otherwise his bair beats it if I recall right. Instead, we can use Aura Sphere in a few ways to teach Mario to give us some space. We can use it directly by shooting at him, which will obviously foil his edgeguard attempt in most circumstances, but it's somewhat unsafe as he can always predict it and use the cape to reflect it back at us, even if he's facing away... and considering we're offstage in this scenario, that's pretty bad. The other way we can use Aura Sphere is the ever-so-amazing reverse-Baby Aura Sphere, allowing us to return to the stage using our wonderful, wonderful bair. Our Bair almost definitely beats his, and if I recall correctly, it beats the fireballs as well, so really once again all he can do is cape us. The cape is tricky to get around. Getting around the cape other than the obvious double jump into it for a height boost is really tricky(and I doubt you'll find a Mario that lets you get the boost anyways). You can avoid the cape in three ways: going around Mario so that he can't cape you entirely, or screwing with his head, airdodging, and using a fair/bair to hit him, which is unreliable at best. Usually you're just going to want to go around him if possible, airdodge if necessary, and try a bair/fair only as a last resort/if you wanna be sneaky. In all honesty, though, Mario can't go out too far to edgeguard you, as he's both less floaty, and his up b is much shorter, so even with his good double jump he'll probably have a hard time edgeguarding you. Because of this, you'll usually have your double jump still when he gets in range to be able to harm you. Usually you can just use that + airdodge, or possibly even ExtremeSpeed to get you over him and back onstage. Fun fact: If Mario capes your ExtremeSpeed startup animation, before you blast off, you will still end up going the direction you were holding before he caped you, unlike Melee. Once again, in all honesty, I don't think Lucario will ever be getting gimped by Mario. His tools + worse edgeguarding distance just doesn't seem to stack up with our sheer recovery distance, as he can't really do much if we just soar over him every time lol.

Just remember that neither character really has anything that'll get the opponent offstage at an angle that either character will be all that vulnerable. DI makes or breaks this matchup in the edgeguarding department.

I hope you aren't serious about this. Its 55:45 Lucario. I'm on lunch break at school and it's gonna end soon so I'll put a few things.

We outcamp you. Our fireballs are a much better projectile to spam, edgeguard and possibly gimp you. Your AS probably won't work on us because we have the cape and we can simply reflect it. You are heavy so we can kinda juggle you. I'm not sure if your dair will stop our juggling at low percents. Gimping for us won't be easy, but it is possible. My first kill on a professional level was a gimp on Zucco. I lost to him though. Good player.

More to come later.

I don't think you guys outcamp us. You have an annoying projectile at mid-close range, and it gives you a nice approach, but you'll most likely lose in a game of pure defense. Fireballs are great, but they can't really gimp us unless we recover disturbingly low. Mario's cape isn't exactly the best reflector. It may make us more careful with our spheres, but it doesn't outright shut them down in the least. Your juggles work at low %. It's gay. We can get out past like 30% though with dair and stuff, though. Gimping on Mario's part seems to be quite difficult, although not impossible, as it entirely depends on Lucario DI'ing very badly, as well as screwing up or just plain being outplayed.

Lucario is pretty floaty, so as I recall, he's one of those characters who Mario can easily Jab D-smash (in that it's unblockable).

That works? Interesting. I didn't know Mario had jab-combos like his brother. I thought Mario's jab had poor hitstun and the sakurai angle, giving him jab locks with bad frame disadvantage. I need to look into that.

In general though you'll want to keep in mind Mario's F-smash range because it's one of the longest ranged F-smashes in the entire game, and it KOs pretty decently even when not sweetspotted.

It's also really deceptive. I forget quite often just how long it is. It's really irritating if you don't remember the range.

Absolutely true, that's also part of the reason why it completely stops working when his damage rises as his aura range increases as well.

Aura doesn't increase range.


Summary:
Mario juggles us at low %. Don't get utilted. You'll be able to dair, DI, or jump out eventually.
Fireballs seem like approach tools rather than for camping. They're really good for him.
His Usmash can bait a dair and then punish it. Watch out for this.
Mario's recovery is imo easier to gimp using Lucario than vice-versa. Either one gimping the other is almost entirely dependent on bad DI.
Mario's recovery is more linear due to less distance and is protected by fireballs and cape, but really safe and aggravating. Use Aura Sphere, fair, bair, and dair creatively to try to edgeguard and/or gimp him.
Don't get stagespiked by Super Jump Punch. It's super special and ridiculously powerful, killing you at low % if you don't edgehog him right. Learn to edgehog properly or work on ledgetechs. =D
Mario's Dsmash is gay.
Recover over him if possible. Bair and Cape will make recovering interesting, but not especially hard unless you keep getting mindgamed by cape shenanigans. FLUDD doesn't do ****. Your superior recovery distance will generally let you slip past him with airdodges or by flying over him. Other options include using Aura Sphere to tell him to gtfo, or to reverse BAS and recover with bair. Curve Extremespeed if absolutely required to keep him guessing.
Cape means you need to be wary with Aura Sphere, but it doesn't entirely shut down our spheres. Just be careful.
Mario's Fsmash is really long and really deceptive. Learn the range or be slightly annoyed. :<
Luc's range doesn't increase with aura.
Avoid Zelda's sideB by watching her hands. Airdodge/aerial when you see her flick her wrist and you'll never be hit by it again.
Force Zelda to approach and the match will be 70x easier. Camp the princess and/or zone her.
Nayru's Love (neutB) sends you in the direction she's facing. Don't get tricked into jumping at a zelda facing away from the stage, only to be tossed off. It also has invincibility on startup. I think it's like frames 2 to 6 or something.
Zelda's Dsmash is one of the few moves that are actually able to force Lucario into a position where he may actually need to use ExtremeSpeed. Be careful and recover smartly.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Aura doesn't increase range.

It doesn't? I'm sure I read somewhere it does.

Guess it was false information.

 

[Inferno3044]

His tier list was opinionated, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Honestly I think it's in the 55:45-60:40 range, I forgot about the "lucario super jump" with mario's cape though, but now that I think about it, it would actually be a plausible trick against cape when recovering from below.

I'm sorry. It's just 65:35 is just insanely wrong. Maybe there's some stuff he doesn't know and that's fine.

Fireball isn't going to make Lucario approach.

If done for long enough it can. Also, it can be used to zone. I zone with them quite a bit when I need to. I just think Mario can force an approach on Lucario than the other way around.

Then we don't spam it, we shouldn't in most MU's anyways.

My point is that you really don't have a spammable projectile to keep us at bay.

Lucario is floaty and light, what are you smoking?

There's no way he's light. Mario is around the average weight and Lucario is heavier. Actually since your dair is a good combo breaker, that can help you when surviving.

It's his faster aerial with good range.

That's what I thought.

It is possible both ways.

Agreed. I'm just saying it's possible for Mario to gimp you. And it's not almost impossible like Sonic, Wario, and Jiggz. My point is that we can gimp you and it's not like it will only happen once in a blue moon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That works? Interesting. I didn't know Mario had jab-combos like his brother. I thought Mario's jab had poor hitstun and the sakurai angle, giving him jab locks with bad frame disadvantage. I need to look into that.

Mario's Jab1 isn't bad. From landing the optimal hit, it's 1 frame worse than Luigi's in terms of advantage (tested on another Mario). Luigi's Jab has a 5 frame advantage on Mario, while respectively, Mario's Jab has a 4 frame advantage.

From the frame data thread on Luigi's Jab (by Magus no less), it states that Lucario and ROB are characters that fall under the +7 frame advantage from Luigi's Jab. Now what I DO know from testing is that Mario's Jab canceled D-smash is in fact unblockable against ROB, and assuming that Lucario's physics work similarly, he should be susceptible to that too.

At any rate however, Mario's Jab2 is actually better than his Jab1 for Jab cancel combos in that it gives a greater frame advantage. Landing both Jab1 and Jab2 can open up quite a few different followup possibilities for Mario, especially when you consider that Mario gets a +7 frame advantage on himself after landing both Jabs. Jab Jab D-smash I believe is only blockable by space animals from what I have tested.

It's also really deceptive. I forget quite often just how long it is. It's really irritating if you don't remember the range.

Just to give you a clearer idea how much range it has, the stutter step is only outranged by Wolf, Falco, and DDD's F-smash (not by all that much anyway). The leanback on the charge stance is also massive enough for Mario to dodge something like Ike's F-smash and punish.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I haven't had a problem outcamping Lucario, just throwin that out there.

 

[BoTastic!]

There's no way he's light. Mario is around the average weight and Lucario is heavier. Actually since your dair is a good combo breaker, that can help you when surviving.

No, Lucario is a lot lighter than Mario. He just has very good momentum breaking.

The best Lucarios I've played is Scythe's and Mendoza's. I've beaten both of them, and they've beaten me. I'd say this match up is even or 55:45/60:40 Lucario.

Lucario has a range and hitbox advantage and he takes forever to kill. The best way to kill him is to gimp, and Mario's good at that.

It's very hard to juggle Lucario because of his dair. A smart Mario should not be trying to juggle Lucario directly below because Dair will stop him every time. He can be juggled at an angle so the dair won't effect Mario. Walling Bairs from Mario can also avoid the dair problem since Mario's Bair is faster than Lucario's Fair and bair.

With all this said, Lucario can still give Mario a lot of trouble, he has more range and his disjointed hitboxes will rival Mario's poor range.

Also if you any of you are online players, I really hope you know what you're talking about. Lucario is insanely hard online, and Mario's bad online. So yea..

 

[phi1ny3]

He's heavier but floatier, iirc. Fall weight does lots of wonders lol. Fox and wario are good examples of how in this game you can have drastic differences between the two.

 

[BoTastic!]

He's heavier than Mario? That's not what I've seen on the weight thread. Or at least thats not what I remember.

 

[phi1ny3]

Weight:

This one was pretty simple to figure out since it’s the same as it was in Melee. The base knock back of a move is not affected by weight. So this only leaves the incremental knock back with damage. By calculating this incremental knock back against different characters and comparing it to the value I found for Mario I made the following weight table:

Bowser 1.111
Donkey Kong 1.091
Snake 1.076
Dedede 1.071
Charizard 1.061
Ganondorf 1.056
Samus 1.051
Yoshi 1.045
Wario 1.045
R.O.B. 1.040
Ike 1.035
Captain Falcon 1.030
Link 1.030
Wolf 1.020
Lucario 1.010
Ivysaur 1.010
Mario 1
The numbers in this table show the weight of a character compared to Mario, so Bowser is 1.111 times as heavy as Mario, Jigglypuff is 0.849 times as heavy as Mario. This table has proved to be 100% consistent with all moves I’ve tested.


Fall speed:

As I already said, base knock back is not affected by the weight of a character. However, different characters still have different base knock back for the same move. Upon further testing I found that this seemed to be related to the fall speed of characters. With characters like Jiggly and Samus having a low base knock back and characters like Fox and Wolf having a high base knock back. My theory is that this was added to account for the increased susceptibility that fast falling characters have to combos. I also found that the amount by which the base knock back for characters differs is not the same for all moves. For weaker moves it’s the same, but for stronger moves it seems to differ a lot. To account for this I took Ike’s fully charged forward Smash as a bench mark and assigned it a value of 100 for the deviation of its base knock back per character. This number is purely arbitrary but it does allow me to make a list to compare fall speed. This gave me the following list. Again I took Mario as a benchmark, hence he has a value of “0”.

Jigglypuff -0.78
Samus -0.54
Olimar -0.47
Kirby -0.44
Lucario -0.40
Peach -0.37
Luigi -0.32
R.O.B. -0.32
Zelda -0.26
Marth -0.25
Toon Link -0.16
Ivysaur -0.16
Ness -0.12
Yoshi -0.05
Pit 0.00
Mario 0

It should be noted that these numbers shouldn’t be takes as absolute values. They show how much a character deviates from Mario. So you can’t say “Fox falls 3 times as fast as Squirtle” but you can say “The difference between Fox and Mario is 3 times larger then the difference between Squirtle and Mario”.

Bolded are the ones to look for.
The fact that lucario has a better momentum cancel can also arguably extend how much lucario lives.

 

[BoTastic!]

Bolded are the ones to look for.
The fact that lucario has a better momentum cancel can also arguably extend how much lucario lives.

Oh Ok. I see. He's a tad heavier than Mario. It's been a while since I've seen the list. Also, I mentioned how Lucario lives longer than mario in my post.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yah, although if he wastes his second jump (arguably his best asset offstage), or tries to recover from below, there's going to be a lot of trouble for lucario.

 

[Kitamerby]

Bolded are the ones to look for.
The fact that lucario has a better momentum cancel can also arguably extend how much lucario lives.

So we're basically the 5th floatiest character? Wow. Weird. I knew we were floaty, but I didn't realize we were THAT floaty! Moon physics ftw!

Also, fun fact. If I recall right, fall speed is the exact same as jump speed, meaning that we're the 5th slowest jumper technically, in that we rise the 5th slowest while jumping. (Compare to Falco or Fox, who goes really fast up, and then really fast downwards.) In a way, this is pretty good since it lets us fly farther to recover, but it makes us... slightly less able to chase upwards or something. Dunno. Seems like it'd mess with juggles, but nothing big.

However, our momentum cancel isn't THAT great. Horizontally, our momentum cancel is the same as our airdodge. (We're the only person in our airdodge class able to use an aerial and get the same effect as our airdodge). So our momentum cancel overall isn't anything special, really.

Compare to someone such as Sonic, who actually HAS a momentum canceling move, and bleh.

Oh and... M2K's KO % testing thread. (Highlighted Mario and Lucario for convenience). It showed that Lucario is basically tied with Ivysaur (proven by brawl's data. Wow at his accuracy), and that they're both exactly ahead of Mario. (Seriously, it's like he coded the game himself. This guy is way too accurate.)


Oh, and for the sake of more fun facts on Lucario's "middle" status compared to Mario, Mario doesn't have a 1.00 in walking speed in Brawl's actual data. That number belongs to Lucario. Mario has 1.10. Lucario is tied for the "middle" character in base aerial mobility, as well! Lucario also has a .99 in maximum horizontal air speed, which is the closest to 1.00 that anyone gets(Tied with Charizard, Samus, and Zelda), while Mario has 0.94.

Also, here's the kicker. When looking at a weight list based on comparisons or ratios, or even statistics, who would you normally think of as having a base knockback resistance of exactly 100? Who's that Pokemon? Surprise, surprise. It's Ivysaur... who is also tied with Lucario. Mario gets a 98, possibly hinting that Lucario and Ivysaur were the real bases that they used, even though neither of them are actually the middlemost character, which belongs to Pit/Ness/Lucas... lol.

Internal character statistics.

The last two paragraphs are only relevant because we're talking about Mario. =D


Oh, and so that I have a serious reason not to be infracted for going off topic, Zelda's fair/bair has special cinematic hitlag that prevents it from being SDI'd even though you're frozen in place for so long. Marth's tippers have the same effect iirc, if not all then at least his fsmash does, but not Falcon's Knee (lol at how much you can SDI the knee. Poor Falcon). This makes her lightning kicks even more dangerous.

 

[BleachigoZX]

RJ let me know when you do the Falco MU again. I didn't post here last time.

 

[Vionce]

, but not Falcon's Knee (lol at how much you can SDI the knee. Poor Falcon).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB1kaL01_cw

just to show.

 

[phi1ny3]

Huzzah we got a new MU chart courtesy of RJ! XD

 

[Browny]

lol @ 63:35 matchup ratios

Also Kita its nice people are finally realising that Mario is not, and never has been, the base for any character attribute. However I feel that list would be more accurate when determining the middle value by using the median rather than mean. Its not like bowser, dk, snake and d3 are the exact same proportion heavier than the middle weight character (whoever that is, or is closest to) than Jiggs G&W squirtle and MK (I think they are the lightest?) characters are lighter relative to the same character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario (smash blue)
Mass determines how easily a character can be sent flying, as well as a character's physical strength: Mario's mass is the standard upon which other Smash fighters are measured. His Super Jump Punch sends foes skyward in a shower of coins, while the Mario Tornado pulls in nearby foes, spins them silly, and scatters them every which way. (Up & B: Super Jump Punch, Down & B: Mario Tornado)

 

[Browny]

So? thats arbitrary. You could set someone like Jiggs or DK as the standard, it wouldnt make the slightest difference in the end.

Things should be measured relative to the whole cast. I hate this notion of how the median character attribute is defined to be that of a pre-determined character. IMO it would be much better to take the average of any attribute, measured against the extreme of either end (define jiggs weight as 1, everyone else is higher etc) then from that data, find the median character and set them as the standard point, resetting that specific attribute to 1 and everyone else measured relative to that.

The difference in the end would be minimal, but its more accurate than having a character defined as having a 1.0 for an attribute, despite not actually having the median (or mean) value for that attribute across the whole cast.

 

[Kitamerby]

Mario (smash blue)
Mass determines how easily a character can be sent flying, as well as a character's physical strength: Mario's mass is the standard upon which other Smash fighters are measured. His Super Jump Punch sends foes skyward in a shower of coins, while the Mario Tornado pulls in nearby foes, spins them silly, and scatters them every which way. (Up & B: Super Jump Punch, Down & B: Mario Tornado)

It was more of a geyser than a shower imo.

 

[Aurasmash14]

can you guys get back on topic?

 

[Browny]

Do we have to?

 

[Kitamerby]

Every once and awhile, the Lucario boards become awesome for a few hours. This is the time that the Lucario boards derail threads to wander to their own worlds, free from the confines of society, logic, and the concept of a single, unchangable topic of which we must discuss, like the days of old. It's a time of peace, a time of hope. A time of reminiscence, a time of friendship. You begin notice that behind every character and syntax on this site, there's a face, a person, a story. It's a time to share your joy, to share your face, to share your stories. It's during these moments that one really feels great to be alive, as they realize that they are never truly alone.





Then, some random-*** figlett always comes in out of nowhere to spoil our fun. It's like running a lawnmower through a barber shop. It's just not cool and it ends up ruining everyone's day.