Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Master Knight DH]

Guys, this might be a troll. Or if it isn't, I can't tell the difference .

Ironic you would say that considering:

Wait, Grit is broken?

The crap? Not even

Yeah sure. +1 Range in an environment where defense ends up overencouraged to the point where the units that benefit highly from it have easily repaired and sturdy defense isn't broken. Oh wait.

Oh, by the way, Brawl has come across as primarily defensive in general already.

 

[frdagaa]

Yeah, he's a troll. There's no way someone can be that foolish. I wish we had an "ignore" button.... (Do we? I haven't been able to find it, but it would be quite useful here).

 

[Master Knight DH]

Yeah, he's a troll. There's no way someone can be that foolish. I wish we had an "ignore" button.... (Do we? I haven't been able to find it, but it would be quite useful here).

Elitism FTW.

Seriously, you look on me like you're the gods you're not. But it's thanks to people like you that the real trolls call ME a tourney***.

 

[Zankoku]

People looking down on others by blaming them of exhibiting elitism are, by definition, hypocrites.

 

[Master Knight DH]

People looking down on others by blaming them of exhibiting elitism are, by definition, hypocrites.

And what about people who tell others to put up or shut up about Pit's ridiculous arrow spam when they get ***** by characters like Meta Knight, who by all accounts they should have no trouble with, and rant about it? They're certainly better.

 

[Mmac]

Isn't Colin like Twice as Broken as Grif?

Plus why so much debate on Pit? He's not Broken, nor anywhere near it. He's just plain annoying. End of Discussion.

I'm not even going to get started on Praxis's view on Yoshi vs. MetaKnight, yet again. Nor the other people who constantly claim that all Yoshi has is "Just a Chaingrab" (Geez, It's starting to be like a "It's only a Flesh Wound" Joke), or the other people who keep saying that we constantly claim that we completely ZOMGWTFOMFGHAXORZUBERPWNAGEROFLLAMO MetaKnight.

Life of a Yoshi is so stressful

 

[salaboB]

And what about people who tell others to put up or shut up about Pit's ridiculous arrow spam when they get ***** by characters like Meta Knight, who by all accounts they should have no trouble with, and rant about it? They're certainly better.

If you don't understand the difference between a technique that can be gotten around with practice and one that no viable answer has been found for, that's really not anyone else's fault.

 

[frdagaa]

And what about people who tell others to put up or shut up about Pit's ridiculous arrow spam when they get ***** by characters like Meta Knight, who by all accounts they should have no trouble with, and rant about it? They're certainly better.

"By all accounts?" If by all accounts you mean by your account, ok. Otherwise, no. There is no actually skilled player who thinks that Pit's arrow spam is more ridiculous than MK. Powershield, ffs.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Yes, the polls are evening out, but for reasons. The more we learn and play the game the better our understanding of the game gets. We learn about good and bad match ups, stages, etc. But when you talk about MK you think well, there's none of that because he's the perfect character. I'm not for or against him being banned really, still neutral, for the soul fact of my understanding of the game. I have not explored the game enough to really put emphasis on the statement "MK is unbeatable". We don't think he has bad match ups or bad stages, but for the most part, we also haven't taken an extremely large amount of time to test this theory that he has no downs. It has been thoroughly discussed that he should be banned because he's perfect, but every character has downs, this one only having a few. I think as time goes on more people will find out and realize that MK is beatable, but it is also hard to do so. I for one think that if I took the time to play and really search long and hard for a strategy against him, it could happen. Think outside of the box and make sure that he is unbeatable before you say he should be banned. It's debatable, very debatable.

 

[brinboy789]

It's debatable, very debatable.

so debatable, that we have over 9000 threads about it, one advancing ot almost over 600 pages >_>. thats more then the tier list discussion OR the SBR char weekly thingy.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Isn't Colin like Twice as Broken as Grit?

And Sturm still tears apart Colin like paper. And even if what you say is true, it doesn't change that Grit is still part of the dubbed "Broken Trio" who gets banned regularly.

Plus why so much debate on Pit? He's not Broken, nor anywhere near it. He's just plain annoying. End of Discussion.

Try using the arrows with some degree of strategy. Trust me, you shouldn't ever fall short on responses.

I'm not even going to get started on Praxis's view on Yoshi vs. MetaKnight, yet again. Nor the other people who constantly claim that all Yoshi has is "Just a Chaingrab" (Geez, It's starting to be like a "It's only a Flesh Wound" Joke), or the other people who keep saying that we constantly claim that we completely ZOMGWTFOMFGHAXORZUBERPWNAGEROFLLAMO MetaKnight.

*sigh* My view is that Meta Knight relies on holding onto his advantage. If he can't, he's toast. I wouldn't mind if he's toned down, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim he's broken.

Life of a Yoshi is so stressful

*sigh* I'd rather be living life of a Yoshi than my life right now.

If you don't understand the difference between a technique that can be gotten around with practice and one that no viable answer has been found for, that's really not anyone else's fault.

You can't get around Pit's arrow spam with practice. You can get around Meta Knight's stuff with practice, certainly if you can SOMEHOW, and I emphasize SOMEHOW, get around Pit's arrow spam.

"By all accounts?" If by all accounts you mean by your account, ok. Otherwise, no. There is no actually skilled player who thinks that Pit's arrow spam is more ridiculous than MK. Powershield, ffs.

You mean by using the reflectors or magnets? And powershielding earns you a grab or an Angel Rings smacking.

 

[Zankoku]

Master Knight, if you and your friends typically roll around and fsmash the way I see in your little video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU ), I can see why Pit's arrow spam would be completely overpowered and so broken that there's absolutely no way around it.

I can also easily see why using Meta Knight's very excellent options effectively would be beyond your capabilities.

However, I might be wrong.

 

[GofG]

You can't get around Pit's arrow spam with practice. You can get around Meta Knight's stuff with practice, certainly if you can SOMEHOW, and I emphasize SOMEHOW, get around Pit's arrow spam.

Why aren't pits winning tournaments anywhere?

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

so debatable, that we have over 9000 threads about it, one advancing ot almost over 600 pages >_>. thats more then the tier list discussion OR the SBR char weekly thingy.

Haha yeah. I think overall it can go both ways, but in the long run, I think banning characters will take away from the game and overall, it just really causes trouble. People start to quit since they can't play their favorite character, then the next top tier character, in this case Snake, will get a lot of flack. I really think we should just take the time to try new things though. I'm going to do my best to try to find ways to beat him. I'm sure there are some, because when video games are made, they are never impossible like some people think they are. With that being said, I highly doubt when they made the game that they just decided to make a character unbeatable. I know, he's hard to beat and in the hands of a master ALMOST impossible, but seriously, every character has flaws and there must be a solution. Unless every single one of his moves gives him the power of invincibility, then I'm not going to agree with those that say he is unbeatable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can't get around Pit's arrow spam with practice. You can get around Meta Knight's stuff with practice, certainly if you can SOMEHOW, and I emphasize SOMEHOW, get around Pit's arrow spam.

Pit does not have the rate of fire to reliably stop approaching, though he does have the control.

You mean by using the reflectors or magnets? And powershielding earns you a grab or an Angel Rings smacking.

Spamming is punishable at ranges where he can punish reflectors or magnets...

Powershielding getting you grabbed or angel ringed?

No... when you powershield you can act again a LONG time before pit can.

Shield drop to whatever your move of choice is.

 

[cutter]

Why aren't pits winning tournaments anywhere?

In addition, why aren't Olimars winning tournaments left and right with the "perfect camp" strategy?

 

[salaboB]

In addition, why aren't Olimars winning tournaments left and right with the "perfect camp" strategy?

Why aren't Snakes winning more tournaments with their unstoppable ftilt?

 

[bludhoundz]

'Cause nobody's perfect.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Master Knight, if you and your friends typically roll around and fsmash the way I see in your little video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU ), I can see why Pit's arrow spam would be completely overpowered and so broken that there's absolutely no way around it.

Then tell ShadowGamerDarkly that he and his friends suck. I dare you.

My point is, you're no cooler than guys who would flaunt that they have seen the world, been a war veteran, and did many things others could only dream of before being 25. And no, it doesn't matter whether or not they actually have.

I can also easily see why using Meta Knight's very excellent options effectively would be beyond your capabilities.

Whee. Like I haven't used Meta Knight before? I have. He is overpowered, but I think he can cause a player to be overconfident quite easily.

However, I might be wrong.

At this point it doesn't matter.

Why aren't pits winning tournaments anywhere?

G&Ws. Enough said.

Pit does not have the rate of fire to reliably stop approaching, though he does have the control.

The control should be more than enough.

Spamming is punishable at ranges where he can punish reflectors or magnets...

Who is going to use arrows against a held-up reflector or magnet user? That's just dumb. And Zelda and ROB have reflectors that don't hold up so Pit can hold the arrow and wait to fire. Instant 5%.

Powershielding getting you grabbed or angel ringed?

Since you're inching your way to begin with.

No... when you powershield you can act again a LONG time before pit can.

And yet Falco's blaster, which has worse cooldown for something you can simply jump, is somehow broken. WTF?

Shield drop to whatever your move of choice is.

And you're already smacked but good.

In addition, why aren't Olimars winning tournaments left and right with the "perfect camp" strategy?

Except I'm not even part of the meme that says that, people who are part of it are probably Pikmin Throw abusers which I'm not, and Olimar can be easily gimped.

 

[Zankoku]

Pit's arrows have more cooldown than Falco's shorthopped lasers. I have no idea who ShadowGamerDarkly even is, but I can't find a single video not involving Wifi on that channel you linked me to.

Do you go to tournaments? If so maybe I can find some reference in placements.

Actually, I decided to go ahead and pick a video to watch. It took some time to find a 1v1, since a bunch of them appear to be FFA, but this one will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY0ErdOmuh0

You say you dare me to say ShadowGamerDarkly sucks, but I feel absolutely no pressure in saying so, as it appears to be the truth.

 

[Steel]

Wifi superstars evolving the meta game.


but not really

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then tell ShadowGamerDarkly that he and his friends suck. I dare you.

My point is, you're no cooler than guys who would flaunt that they have seen the world, been a war veteran, and did many things others could only dream of before being 25. And no, it doesn't matter whether or not they actually have.

...

As far as I can see he doesn't even play in this environment. We are not talking about FFAs, we're talking about 1v1s and teams in the current competitive standard environment and offline.

It's not about flaunting, it's about certain tactics being immensely powerful at low levels of play, but when you reach certain levels of play, they're not overpowered.



Oh, and I saw the vid, he does in fact, suck.

The control should be more than enough.

He can reliably hit, but the speed is about consistent so it can be powershielded/spotdodge, and without the speed it cannot hold them in place, even if you ARE hitting them consistently. They WILL approach and you need to be able to fight once that happens.

Who is going to use arrows against a held-up reflector or magnet user? That's just dumb. And Zelda and ROB have reflectors that don't hold up so Pit can hold the arrow and wait to fire. Instant 5%.

How does this matter? They're doing it reactively (response time is about 7 frames, pit's arrows require more then that), most can just activate the reflector/shield.


Regardless, angle the arrow so it can't reflect back unto you, then you don't need to worry about reflectors period. The have to approach eventually then.

Since you're inching your way to begin with.

They recover from shieldstun before you're out of cooldown, they attack. You won't even have a chance to angel ring or grab, because you'll still be in recovery frames.

And yet Falco's blaster, which has worse cooldown for something you can simply jump, is somehow broken. WTF?

What are you talking about? Don't you shorthop your lasers? Pits cooldown is MUCH more then Falco's when Falco shorthops his lasers, hence the reason why EVERY advanced player will shorthop laser. Lower rate of fire, but MUCH safer.

Makes it more difficult to jump over pragmatically as well.

And you're already smacked but good.

Your recovery from arrow is much greater then anybody's shieldstun+shield drop when powershielding, you can check the frame data if you'd like. Your best bet is to shield yourself, and maybe you won't get hit.






Seriously, you're playing on wifi, your wifi experience doesn't mean a thing here because the game is DRASTICALLY different without latency.

Also, it's drastically different in 1v1 and teams then FFA.

 

[Some_Kind_of_JokÈ?]

lol at arrows being OP.

lol more at that vid.

 

[aeghrur]

"Because of G&W"
WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIT! He has a DISADVANTAGED MATCH UP? A COUNTER?
Then why are we even DISCUSSING if Pit should be banned? Seriously, that line ruined your argument. Pit has a counter, use the counter, get an advantage, higher chance of beating pit. :O Can you believe it?

Well, now, let's look at MK. Play MK, he has a counter... wait... no... um, he has neutrals so you have a 50/50 chance... wait... no... you have a 45/55 chance with another character at best. Okay, so play MK, play MK to counter, and um, who cares about those other characters. They can be countered, can MK? Seemingly not. If you want, you can go with another character you love so much for a NEAR even chance like Yoshi or Snake, but why? Your human, your greedy, your in it for the money, your competitive, don't waste your time learning those characters, use your time perfecting MK, you'll be more successful.(theorycraft okay? Don't take this to heart, it's a generalization.)

Soo, who's more bannable? MK or Pit? Apparently Pit. >_>

 

[aeghrur]

Ah crap, double post. Stupid lag. >_<

 

[Zankoku]

learn your time

You have no chance to survive learn your time.


Ha ha ha ha ha.

 

[Tenki]

whyyyyyy fhyyyyyyyyyyy

Most people who theorycraft, for some reason or another, don't take into account airdodging and rolling. I thought it was nice you went ahead and did so.

but...
People don't walk/run and shield anymore??

Master Knight, if you and your friends typically roll around and fsmash the way I see in your little video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU ), I can see why Pit's arrow spam would be completely overpowered and so broken that there's absolutely no way around it.

I can also easily see why using Meta Knight's very excellent options effectively would be beyond your capabilities.

However, I might be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU

I saw a ton of delayed reactions, like Zelda starting her U-air, and Pit's jump+airdodge being late, or Zelda rolling and Pit grabbing at her as Zelda passed him.

Was that wifi?

If it was a live video, I only heard one controller clicking on, and no voices from other people. If it was a replay, then
1) What was the clicking?
2) Does the win screen come up during replays?

What was with team attack off? Projectile spamming becomes superuseful with team attack off, but it's not tournament standard.

You have no chance to survive learn your time.


Ha ha ha ha ha.

What you say?

 

[aeghrur]

You have no chance to survive learn your time.


Ha ha ha ha ha.

Lol, I gotz a lot to learn, hahaha.

 

[Tenki]

On a side note, Falco/Wolf lasers, TL projectiles, Bananas, Turnips, and Arrows are quite annoying online.

I'd even go as far as to say they're overpowered.

 

[Iwan]

Master Knight DH.....is there's a guy holding a gun to your head...some Pit Fanboy or something......

try and find a way to tell us.
we can send help.

 

[Praxis]

I honestly don't care what you find funny at this point.

Awwww.

I can imagine it quite well. It's nothing to an arrow spammer who I wouldn't doubt had been stopped by a G&W or maybe just a Falco.



Let me guess: G&Ws all over the place?

None. There's only one placing G&W in Washington state, Valdens, and he's on the east side of the state over five hours away.

Your credibility is what's dead. You have trouble with Snake, and somehow especially with Meta Knight. He flipping needs disjointed tilts to stand a chance. Otherwise, he's just a punching bag. Meta Knight should not have any problem with him whastoever.

I don't have trouble with either of them. I know the Snake matchup like the back of my hand. YOU are claiming that Snake is a bad character, which shoots your credibility out the window. Snake is an amazingly good character, 2nd (or arguably 3rd) in the game, and Metaknight's worst matchup after another Metaknight.

I love how they also claim it's far easier to beat than any other spam. Really, I do.

SPAM IS ALWAYS EASY TO BEAT. If you know what your opponent is doing, you can punish it. It's when your opponent has a ridiculous moveset with an option for every scenario (Metaknight) that the game becomes unbalanced.

Pit spam is EASILY beatable by a good player that can powershield.

I haven't seen him use the chargeup.

So your argument is actually that Sagemoon is a bad Pit because...he doesn't spam arrows as well as you.

Wow. Just...wow. No really. Just stop right now.

I'd rather be fighting Meta Knight and his melee warfare insanity than Pit and his push-you-around arrows. Yeah, that's another thing: if you can beat arrow spam, you sure as heck can beat Meta Knight in a game where the emphasis is supposed to be on melee combat. Therefore, Meta Knight will only deserve a ban if Pit's OTT arrows are already banned. If they're not banned, Meta Knight will not deserve a ban.

Are you INSANE?

If you're going to claim that arrow spam is the easiest spam ever to thwart, then YOU man up against Meta Knight.

Every single person in this thread has said arrow spam is easy to thwart. You just powershield it and approach anyway. Most characters have a method. Some have reflectosr. MK can just shield and run faster than the Pit can run away and keep powershielding. Peach can just dair the arrows. Everyone has some method.

That's just garbage. Most of the spams can be easily thwarted with common sense. Pit's is not one of them.

The L button isn't common sense anymore?

The 5% per hit isn't the problem, it's the flinching. That's why I get shot at least 4-5 times.

Airdodge, hit the ground and SHIELD. If you get shot 4-5 times every time you approach Pit, you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong.

Here's a secret. Pit only needs to approach you when your percentage is high enough that he can kill you with a single clean strike. Try that and he slams you with Angel Rings.

Yeah. That's exactly what any good Pit player does.

The problem is that his defense isn't invincible. You can get through the arrow spam, and at close range he can't do anything unless you rush into his attacks.

So you want me to just sit there, either getting shot again and again or he waits for my shield to break at which point *anybody* can slam me with a charged up Forward Smash. Yeah, my intelligence feels praised.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU

This is you.

This is you "proving" Pit's arrows are broken.

I really don't think anymore needs to be said, and I encourage anyone reading this to watch the video.

Your opponents don't know how to shield.

Don't feel rushed to respond to this, your mommy might get upset if you're on the computer too long.

 

[Praxis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU

I saw a ton of delayed reactions, like Zelda starting her U-air, and Pit's jump+airdodge being late, or Zelda rolling and Pit grabbing at her as Zelda passed him.

Was that wifi?

If it was a live video, I only heard one controller clicking on, and no voices from other people. If it was a replay, then
1) What was the clicking?
2) Does the win screen come up during replays?

What was with team attack off? Projectile spamming becomes superuseful with team attack off, but it's not tournament standard.


What you say?

Oh, you posted the video first.

It was WiFi, filmed live. You can see the post match countdown. And team attack was off...wow.

 

[TeeVee]

Is someone honestly trying to argue that pits arrow spam is more broken than metaknight?



What happened to the smash community? >_>

 

[XienZo]

I see no problem with Pit. Olimar can throw Pikmin at arrows to block them and we can have one pikmin block a few arrows... and D-tilt goes under striaght arrows and clanks some curved ones... I'm sure other non CF-esque characters have found a way to get past all this...

 

[TeeVee]

I'm sure other non CF-esque characters have found a way to get past all this...

Yea, it's called a shield...

 

[JesiahTEG]

Master Knight is wrong. Pit's arrows suck.

 

[XienZo]

Yeah, but that takes time and you can get tricked if the Pit starts mindgaming with charging arrows, waiting for you to lower your shield, or if you're power shielding, you just might miss an arrow or two, so I'm not QUITE sure its reliable, but if you guys trust that it's reliable, then I will too.

I prefer Pikmin since they require no timing/mindgames.

 

[Gindler]

Pit's arrows aren't bad, annoying for sure. But if you're going to complain about a move being overpowered well pit's arrows is not even close to being the right choice.

 

[Tenki]

Oh, you posted the video first.

It was WiFi, filmed live. You can see the post match countdown. And team attack was off...wow.

Ankoku posted it first.

On the vid, he replied to me and confirmed it was wifi. With "little lag".

Lag always seems less noticeable when you're on the offense, because you're in control of your timing. Even if he's "defensively" using arrows, when it comes to who's attacking and having to avoid attacks, he's the one on offense, so of course it'd be hard to notice.

Attacking online is significantly easier than being on the defense and having to react to and time shields/defenses to work against attacks.

Is someone honestly trying to argue that pits arrow spam is more broken than metaknight?

Yes.

And he supported it with proof - a vid of a wifi match.


2222good.

-----------

really, step back and look at it.

- "Pit's arrows are overpowered"
- Wifi
- projectiles in wifi = ???
- His examples supporting 'overpowered arrows' talk about airdodge (punishable via prediction), rolls (punishability via prediction), but fail to mention quick releases of shields on contact, or powershields (severely gimped with input lag)




it all makes sense now.

 

[ProBrawler]

This is just stupid now... Pit>MK = WTF?