Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Smooth Criminal]

If you want a balanced fighting game, play Guilty Gear.

GG is a paragon among fighting games when it comes to its level of character balance, sure, but let's not forget that it has its own ridicu-**** tiered characters.

Eddie and Testament=absurd, especially when played at their full potential.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't even understand what this means.

it means that every time you can't counter something (Like that post da kid made where your answer was guess) you just dismiss them as garbage/crapy/gay/scrub/what ever players.

 

[Deoxys]

Someone want to explain to me why every single frequently used character has a character board with nearly unanimous agreement on their matchups..... except when it comes to MK it is totally inconsistent?

*Looks at Snake boards*

It couldn't POSSIBLY be because signifigant anti-banning sentiment exists and that's coloring people's perceptions of the match-ups, nah. We all know that people are ALWAYS unbiased with their matchups, right?

YEAAAH... MK mains are totally the most guilty of that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

everyother game that you mentioned had at least 3-5 dominating characters, most of the time with less than 38 characters

brawl has 38 characters and only one that does exceptional in tourneys...

M2K is good with math, he should know that that is a horrible ratio, and based on that, brawl has less variety than any game out there...

and btw, what the hell does my character choice have to do with this, if i mained D3, (i second him, among others) i would still be saying the exact same thing.

 

[Mmac]

Every other game has several characters dominating and that's it.

Look at MVC2. Every team has Storm in it and various other top tiers, and nothing else is even touched.

Look at CVS2. Blanka, Vega, Ken, Sakura, and a few others over and over and over and over.

No other community cries like this despite their games having even less variety.

Well there your flaw right there! Every other Fighting game has about 4 Characters dominating the scene. Even Melee was like that.

Brawl is being dominated by MetaKnight and MetaKnight alone. He has more than Twice the results than Snake, and More than Five Times the Results as the remaining Top Tiers.

 

[KosukeKGA]

and btw, what the hell does my character choice have to do with this, if i mained D3, (i second him, among others) i would still be saying the exact same thing.

Well...Some people actually stand a chance of winning with...Higher tiered characters.

Didn't you look at that statistical post that Inui posted in the other thread? MK isn't always the winner.

 

[Inui]

Well there your flaw right there! Every other Fighting game has about 4 Characters dominating the scene. Even Melee was like that.

Brawl is being dominated by MetaKnight and MetaKnight alone. He has more than Twice the results than Snake, and More than Five Times the Results as the remaining Top Tiers.

He's the best character. Of course he'd be doing better than the others.

In that huge list I posted, 17/66 tournaments had MK in 1st place, and Mew2King was responsible for 7 of those. He would have won with anything else in S tier.

Meta Knight may be dominating wherever the heck you people, but he's not dominating over here. I can't even name anyone I see at NJ/PA/NY events that wants MK banned. In fact, ballsy players like Vex Kasrani go Bowser against MKs just to prove how beatable he is.

but inui, are you saying that if i was better at the game and beat you on a consistent basis, than it would be ok for me to say that hes broken?
I don't even understand what this means.

Oh, now I get it.

If you were actually good at the game, then that would show some level of understanding of high level play. That'd certainly make your opinion more valid overall, especially in the eyes of an elitist like myself.

brawl has 38 characters and only one that does exceptional in tourneys...

M2K is good with math, he should know that that is a horrible ratio, and based on that, brawl has less variety than any game out there...

Marvel vs Capcom 2 has more characters than Brawl and less viable characters.

It's one of the most popular fighting games in the nation and the main event at every fighting game major tournament.

Nobody cries like this community does.

 

[da K.I.D.]

woooooooooowwwwwwww....

Mvc2 has more viable characters than brawl?

and you hug your mother with those hands?

Storm
Magneto
Cable
Sentinel

these were the S tier for MvC2
im not sure you cna count so ill make this clear for you

4 best characters out of near 50 characters, is much much better that 1 character thats by far better than the other 38

like i said in the other thread, im going to bed, but think about this,

is it in anyway possible that no other game community "cries" like us because no other game community has a character thats vaguely overpowered and needs a ban like ours does

just think about it...

 

[Inui]

woooooooooowwwwwwww....

Mvc2 has more viable characters than brawl?

and you hug your mother with those hands?

Storm
Magneto
Cable
Sentinel

these were the S tier for MvC2

Read carefully, fool.

"Marvel vs Capcom 2 has more characters than Brawl and less viable characters."

I said MVC2 has more total characters, but less viable characters.

im not sure you cna count so ill make this clear for you

4 best characters out of near 50 characters, is much much better that 1 character thats by far better than the other 38

like i said in the other thread, im going to bed, but think about this,

is it in anyway possible that no other game community "cries" like us because no other game community has a character thats vaguely overpowered and needs a ban like ours does

just think about it...

Meta Knight isn't overpowered or on another level when compared to the rest of S tier in Brawl.

Statements like the ones you just made about MK being the best by far show your INCREDIBLY vast ignorance when it comes to high level play. If he was overpowered, superior players like Forte wouldn't be losing to inferior players like Candy and G-regulate when they bust out Snake against him. If Meta Knight was overpowered, my huge win streak against Yes! wouldn't have ended the very moment I went Meta Knight against his Snake. If Meta Knight was overpowered, he'd actually win everything and make up the top placings at every event around here, but he doesn't, and only Mew2King gets 1st consistently.

Stop being a fool.

Edit: I'm talking to someone from your area right now on AIM. He says you're actually not that bad at Brawl, but you're a crybaby that cries about Meta Knight all the time and johns like crazy when you lose to superior players just because they use MK. He told me you main Lucario and Dedede and say MK is 65/35 against them. Azen beats Forte, Omni, and Plank with Lucario and can beat M2K. Atomsk beats Forte and has beaten me, Shadow, Jman, and Omni with Dedede. Sorry, but other players can actually win by being good and knowing the match.

Xiivi (3:21:28 AM): Jesiah and Pika Pika don't use MK much at all anyway
Sesshomaru010101 (3:21:40 AM): yeah, i guessed that already
Xiivi (3:21:43 AM): the TO likes to list them as /MK to fuel it all
Xiivi (3:21:51 AM): Jesiah's MK isn't really even good
Xiivi (3:22:05 AM): I beat it in tourny with snake when I had only played snake for <1week
Xiivi (3:22:23 AM): Jesiah's Snake is what wins
Xiivi (3:22:31 AM): and with Pika Pika's Pikachu
Xiivi (3:22:44 AM): in fact they really only toss out MK against each other
Xiivi (3:22:53 AM): when one of them picks a stupid stage
Xiivi (3:23:00 AM): and they usually don't win with MK anyway
Sesshomaru010101 (3:23:01 AM): I figured as much

Awesome.

 

[Mmac]

In fact, ballsy players like Vex Kasrani go Bowser against MKs just to prove how beatable he is.

Except Bowser is one of the better Characters to use against MetaKnight, and was known for awhile....

 

[Praxis]

someone link that gimpy and eggz doubles match

I was there too T_T

 

[Praxis]

I've noticed a steady decline in the ban v don't ban percentages. The people for a ban started at around 60-63% and has been steadily declining. For reference, it's at 56% right now. Any guesses why?

Both sides are simply increasing at a similar rate.

Consider: 300:200 ratio is 3:2, but the side on the left has a lead of 100 people.

3000:2600 ratio is 15:13, or almost even, but the left side leads by 400 people.

This is what happened. As numbers get larger, if both sides increase at a similar rate, the percentages will even out, despite the fact that the pro-ban side seems to maintain a consistent lead.

 

[Inui]

Except Bowser is one of the better Characters to use against MetaKnight, and was known for awhile....

Nah, I honestly believe that's a myth.

I'm sure he ***** aggressive ones because he can grab them and punish them with up b out of shield and stuff.

I just camped into tilts and tornado and twostocked Vex's Bowser on FD.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

If you want a balanced fighting game, play Guilty Gear.

Every other game has several characters dominating and that's it.

Look at MVC2. Every team has Storm in it and various other top tiers, and nothing else is even touched.

Hey you're right. If you want a balanced fighting game , player guilty gear. We should un ban items and stages. If you think they are unbalanced, its simple. Just go play guilty gear. Would you agree? Probably not and the simple fact of the matter is that the Smash Community does ban and has already banned multiple elements in order to SIMPLY balance the game into more of a competitive game. And the idea is that the game is more balanced without Metaknight. Whether you agree with this statement or not is definitely up for debate, but the idea that we don't make rule changes in the Smash community for the sake of balancing the game is simply wrong.

I really didn't like your examples of Ganon beating tornado. Do you realize how slow upsmash is? You have to outwit your opponent at least 4 to 1 to nail that thing on him.
That's not gonna happen at a high level. It's the same with most of his moves. They are not very landable, if that is a word. When I say characters don't have an answer to tornado, I'm referring to the idea that at a high level, that character cannot realistically outwit the MK user to hit his tornado unless he is vastly smarter and ahead of the MK player, and that's why the matchup is ridiculously im MK's favor. Everyone i see your anti MK strategies, it's as if you are assuming the MK player sucks and doesn't know the matchup. I'm referring to MK's who are good and know the matchup. If a MK player understands the Ganon matchup, and the Ganon understands the MK matchup, it is heavily in MK's favor because he can much, much more easily bait and control the pace of the matchup and get Ganon stuck in a myriad of tornados. The move nature just makes it much more difficult to outsmart a good opponent into punsihing it. I don't believe this is true of the Snake OR G+W mathcup versus most of the cast, who do have multtiple advantaged matchups across the board, but the matchups are more doable because they don't have a move that is like the tornado in nature, that requires massive prediction to beat with these kind of characters. In that way because of the tornado in large part, MK creates a multitude of one sided matchups in ways other top tier characters cannot.

 

[Inui]

That's such a silly argument. Well, if you mean "banning MK makes the game more competitive" then I guess you have a point, because if you meant something else, then LOL. I'd say the SBR's current stage list hurts the competitiveness of Brawl far more than MK does.

It honestly saddens me to see respected and talented players like yourself, Hylian, and chillindude829 in the "yes" section of the poll. Just throwing that out there.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

So why is it a silly argument? Enlighten me rather than just simply saying I'm wrong. And why is it so sad for someone respected or talented to vote yes?

I am outright saying that MK is not broken, but he's dumb / un balanced enough to banned, just like items such as food/bumpers are not broken but dumb enough to be banned. That's my argument literally dumbed down and I don't believe I've yet to a good reason against it other than 'get better', which is much the same argument Evo used in the defense of items in their tournaments. I was anti MK ban until I went back on old forum posts here and read through items vs no items debates, and saw that they are nearly, nearly identical to this MK debate we are having now with people claiming they are unbalanced and others claiming that they just need to learn to use them and get better.

 

[LeeHarris]

Don't expect an actual argument out of him, Edrees. He can't provide you any logical reasoning. Just look at my sig for an awesome example.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Don't expect an actual argument out of him, Edrees. He can't provide you any logical reasoning. Just look at my sig for an awesome example.

B-but....Olimar has pikmin toss!

 

[frdagaa]

B-but....Olimar has pikmin toss!

You know, it's true. He does.

I wonder.... when will people stop with the "QQ and get better" foolery? I don't think it's yet to convince a single person, ever.

 

[Sharky]

So why is it a silly argument? Enlighten me rather than just simply saying I'm wrong. And why is it so sad for someone respected or talented to vote yes?

I am outright saying that MK is not broken, but he's dumb / un balanced enough to banned, just like items such as food/bumpers are not broken but dumb enough to be banned. That's my argument literally dumbed down and I don't believe I've yet to a good reason against it other than 'get better', which is much the same argument Evo used in the defense of items in their tournaments. I was anti MK ban until I went back on old forum posts here and read through items vs no items debates, and saw that they are nearly, nearly identical to this MK debate we are having now with people claiming they are unbalanced and others claiming that they just need to learn to use them and get better.

Items are random. Metaknight is not random. Big difference there.

 

[DRaGZ]

Honestly, it's like...this one clique that's against the ban and then hordes of people for it and then random sporadic people who say yes or no based on personal opinion.

It's just interesting to see from a debater's perspective, that's all.

Items are random. Metaknight is not random. Big difference there.

What if items gave just one character a huge advantage?

 

[Sharky]

And now the debate comes down to whether that advantage is so huge. Same thing as the past 135 pages. *sigh* =P

Whatever I add on the match-up is probably going to be dismissed, anyway, but I'm still pushing for the Yoshi advantage, given a patient enough game of course. Up-smash is a nice quick way to get through the tornado, as well. With good egg pressure (at the proper distance to react, of course,) Yoshi has the advantage whenever he gets MK on the edge, as well, IMO. There's also the grab release u-smash which kills anywhere from 115% and up, depending on DI. I'm not including the release spike in my argument because of its position requirements which aren't guaranteed to happen every match.

Of course, like I said, I'll probably be dismissed by someone saying to go out and win a tournament. To that I say since I can't go tournamenting (lol tournamenting), I might as well spread the word and, just maybe, convince someone else to try it out.

 

[MASAHIROx]

i love this.

all theses selfish MK users begging for their lives now LOL.

beg some more b!tches. actually get down on your ****ing hands and kness and bark like a dog while you're at it.

thats what you get for playing a broken char.

stop b!tching and go learn gay char #2 AKA FALCO.

you mother ****ers.

we need more players like chu and ninjalink. they make this game fun.

I KNOW other people feel the same way i do.

 

[Sharky]

i love this.

all theses selfish MK users begging for their lives now LOL.

beg some more b!tches. actually get down on your ****ing hands and kness and bark like a dog while you're at it.

thats what you get for playing a broken char.

stop b!tching and go learn gay char #2 AKA FALCO.

you mother ****ers.

we need more players like chu and ninjalink. they make this game fun.

I KNOW other people feel the same way i do.

*looks at user info, sig, avatar, etc.* I'm a selfish MK user?! Since when?! =$

 

[MASAHIROx]

play MK?

yup yup

lol clearly you dont so chill

 

[DRaGZ]

I think he just means in general man.

 

[Sharky]

out of curiosity how is MK doing in JP?

 

[The Real Inferno]

Last I heard there's only 1 good meta in Japan and he won a huge tournament but that's it.

 

[MASAHIROx]

i love this.

all theses selfish MK users begging for their lives now LOL.

beg some more b!tches. actually get down on your ****ing hands and kness and bark like a dog while you're at it.

thats what you get for playing a broken char.

stop b!tching and go learn gay char #2 AKA FALCO.

you mother ****ers.

we need more players like chu and ninjalink. they make this game fun.

I KNOW other people feel the same way i do.

quoted cuz it got bottomed and people need to lay eyes on it as much as possible. just need to put the heartless in their place ya dig. just know that you're filth.

just like cging sheiks in melee...

seriously though.

all these ****s are gonna play falco. LOL

i like having fun. not constantly upbing, side stepping and wailing on the c stick.


everyone needa to go look up ninjalink on youtube. theres a brawl player.

 

[Sharky]

quoted cuz it got bottomed and people need to lay eyes on it as much as possible. just need to put the heartless in their place ya dig. just know that you're filth.

just like cging sheiks in melee...

seriously though.

all these ****s are gonna play falco. LOL

i like having fun. not constantly upbing, side stepping and wailing on the c stick.


everyone needa to go look up ninjalink on youtube. theres a brawl player.

someone's trying a little too hard to look good over there I see...

 

[Jman115]

A game should never focus around one character. It should be focused around the players. When metaknight is playable, the games focus shifts to metaknight and you see less variety in character usage. Tournaments aren't fun when everyone uses the same character because they don't want to lost. Or when everyone is talking/upset about one character. Take metaknight out of the picture and you see more variety in character selection, people who have more fun, and less accusations of being cheap.

I believe Metaknight is able to be overcome, but that will take time and probably a temporary ban until we can figure out how to deal with him is the best option not only for players in general, but for metaknight as well. If he keeps up his ridiculous amount of tourney wins, he will be banned.

 

[Dark Sonic]

out of curiosity how is MK doing in JP?

Out of more curiosity, how is Akuma doing in JP? (he's not "officially" banned there after all)

 

[Mew2King]

edress, the real reason you think that is because of a teams match where me and azen lost the first game when azen was lucario (he was playing bad that match though) then did really well the next game using double MK. But besides that, every other game was close in both sets. Arguably the best 2 MKs in the US me and azen (azen or DSF is both 2 and 3 spot, not sure of order), the best 2 MKs still went 3-2 against you/DSF in BOTH sets, and you were peach. DSF also did better using Snake than MK by a pretty good amount on average. Either that says something, or you are just supremely more skilled than everyone.

 

[TVTMaster]

I dunno about banning him. He certainly needs to be restricted in some way, maybe using Brawl's handicap feature or disallowing him counterpick stages. Just some kind of way to take him down a notch to make for a more fragile character.

 

[PhantomX]

Doubles doesn't even matter :\ MK is half as good in doubles as he is in singles. It's easier to punish him if there's two people there (and his partner in the way as well), and in doubles you're rewarded for survivability.

 

[Inui]

So why is it a silly argument? Enlighten me rather than just simply saying I'm wrong. And why is it so sad for someone respected or talented to vote yes?

I am outright saying that MK is not broken, but he's dumb / un balanced enough to banned, just like items such as food/bumpers are not broken but dumb enough to be banned. That's my argument literally dumbed down and I don't believe I've yet to a good reason against it other than 'get better', which is much the same argument Evo used in the defense of items in their tournaments. I was anti MK ban until I went back on old forum posts here and read through items vs no items debates, and saw that they are nearly, nearly identical to this MK debate we are having now with people claiming they are unbalanced and others claiming that they just need to learn to use them and get better.

I don't agree with you. That's all.

You think MK is as stupid as items and detracts from the competitiveness of Brawl, correct? I don't agree with that.

-Meta Knight does not add an extreme amount of pure luck to the game.
-Meta Knight can't randomly kill you at any percent based on luck.
-Meta Knight, contrary to what many of you many think, does have at least one bad match and then several ones where he goes even or only wins very sliggtly, making him perfectly beatable. You need to sit down and look at how effective a camping Snake or Olimar can be against Meta Knight, as well as characters like Diddy and Game and Watch if they don't make lots of mistakes and play safely.

I don't think Meta Knight detracts from the competitiveness of Brawl. I think he adds to it because he's the best character and forces people to actually play well and think to win. Who cares if you mess up against a character like Toon Link or Pit? You won't get punished that harshly, despite those characters being pretty good. If you mess up against MK, you can potentially get death combo'd, gimped, etc., so you have to actually stay safe and not go "lol it's brawl so ill just do stuff cuz i wont rly be punished that harshly due to no combozzzz lololol." Of course, messing up against something like Dedede or Snake is obviously worse........

Honestly, it's like...this one clique that's against the ban and then hordes of people for it and then random sporadic people who say yes or no based on personal opinion.

What? The amount voting "yes" isn't that much higher.

I looked at the poll, and despite the "Yes" section having more votes, there are more staff members, TOs, and other higher-status players in the "No" section. That's something to keep in mind.

 

[JesiahTEG]

i love this.

all theses selfish MK users begging for their lives now LOL.

beg some more b!tches. actually get down on your ****ing hands and kness and bark like a dog while you're at it.

thats what you get for playing a broken char.

stop b!tching and go learn gay char #2 AKA FALCO.

you mother ****ers.

we need more players like chu and ninjalink. they make this game fun.

I KNOW other people feel the same way i do.

I know you're not actually telling people to make the game fun when your avatar/character is DDD. If you main DDD, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell anyone to go play a fun character and to make the game fun.

 

[BentoBox]

edress, the real reason you think that is because of a teams match where me and azen lost the first game when azen was lucario (he was playing bad that match though) then did really well the next game using double MK. But besides that, every other game was close in both sets. Arguably the best 2 MKs in the US me and azen (azen or DSF is both 2 and 3 spot, not sure of order), the best 2 MKs still went 3-2 against you/DSF in BOTH sets, and you were peach. DSF also did better using Snake than MK by a pretty good amount on average. Either that says something, or you are just supremely more skilled than everyone.

It is you whose arguments mostly revolve around anecdotes. You mustn't have read any of his posts~ ._.

I don't think Meta Knight detracts from the competitiveness of Brawl. I think he adds to it because he's the best character and forces people to actually play well and think to win. Who cares if you mess up against a character like Toon Link or Pit? You won't get punished that harshly, despite those characters being pretty good. If you mess up against MK, you can potentially get death combo'd, gimped, etc., so you have to actually stay safe and not go "lol it's brawl so ill just do stuff cuz i wont rly be punished that harshly due to no combozzzz lololol." Of course, messing up against something like Dedede or Snake is obviously worse........

You're basically just admitting that the MK player has a significant advantage. And it doesn't require as much of him as it requires of his opponent. There's nothing wrong with enjoying challenge but you can't force your ideals of fun on others.

Well then, what if the community decides that we dont' want to test the skillset of playing against Metaknight because of his overly rounded characteristics as a character? Maybe the community will decide we don't want to test the skillset of fighting a character with no real weaknesses. If prevailing opinion is that these skills are not very deep in comparison to fight other characters, than a ban would be justified. Just as those items are not broken but test a skillset we don't want to test, perhaps Metaknight is not totally broken, but tests a skilset (fighting a character with no disadantaged matchups is a special skill you don't have to have unless you fight metaknight) we don't want to test and we can therefore ban it as well.

 

[Inui]

I know you're not actually telling people to make the game fun when your avatar/character is DDD. If you main DDD, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell anyone to go play a fun character and to make the game fun.

LMAO

Dedede = walk/run at people --> shield/sidestep --> grab.

FUN AND UNLIMITED CHARACTER RIGHT THERE LOLOLOLOL

That's why Mew2King quit Dedede for Meta Knight. Dedede is boring and limited and fighting against him is just as boring because the entire match is "can you deal with shieldgrabbing?"

 

[MASAHIROx]

lol i just have Dedede there cuz i think hes sexy.

DON'T JUDGE SON.

In fact, I main ROB.

...lol

and i can say watever the **** i want thank you very much