Unless I've misunderstood M2K, the VERY BEST strategy to deal with MK is to camp against him. Take away camping, and MK gets better.
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Edreeses that is just ****ed up.
Too true though LULZ
ADHD
Smash Hero
There's some nice little cash prizes for winning in brawl, people will just go to snake that wanted an easier time to win with metaknight.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Which means I'll have a chance in beating themw ith my Sonic. YAY! No 80:20 disadvantage!
Oh crap its a Wario!
metalmonstar
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,081
Switch to Yoshi and grab release him. OMIGOSH we should proved that no metaknight means the counterpick system comes back. XD
Edress you better watch out. Five people could laugh at you. Could you handle that? What happens when the melee community reaches 10 people?
Seriously though, I really think the MK's will be very upset if MK gets banned. They might all quit. If MK really does make up about 40% that is a lot of people quitting brawl.
As I have stated previously, I am on the fence about metaknight. Just to be clear.
But to continue on what i was saying. Metaknight has a few advantages most characters don't. An overall superior moveset. No stage weakness. No character weakness with a few neutrals. I happen to play one of those neutrals which is part of the reason I am on the fence. While I have not experienced extreme difficulty vs metaknight I can see how he limits which characters are played at tournaments and how far more would be played were he not a factor. My preference is to see more characters at tournaments. But I also hate banning.
While you are correct, every game has those characters that are "top" and "low". Most do not have a character that dominates and changes the game the way metaknight does. If he was banned, tournaments and results would be much more varied. Many games that do, ban those things/characters.
As for the Snake thing, it sounds like you said that a noob cannot pick up metaknight and beat a good snake basically? My point was that if a noob picks up metaknight they are going to fair MUCH better against opponents of higher skill. More so by a pretty big margin than if the noob picked up a character other than metaknight. The reason metaknight is so popular is that he has a pretty low learning curves and is easiest to win with against the majority, and those that are not easy still are not that hard comparatively.
My friend is a prime example of what I was saying. I beat him in 8-9/10 matches, one day he decided to use metaknight after reading up on him and practicing. Suddenly that ratio went down to like 5-6/10 matches. Matches became more even and less one sided even though he lacks in skill when compared. He uses any other character he can't come close.
My position presently is that metaknight is unbalanced to the point where he is an outlier that offsets the average so to speak. Until we can figure out how to balance the "average" I think there should be a temporary ban.
Part of the problem is that MK is such a huge number of the current tournament used characters. So your Sonic is far more likely to run into an MK than a Wario, just because there's so many more MK's percent-wise.
And you could pick up a second that can deal with Wario, instead of picking up MK to deal with MK.
(Yoshi vs. MK takes a great deal of time and practice to get anywhere close to 50:50. Basically, if you're not capable of being in the "upper" level of players anyway, you won't be getting an even matchup out of Yoshi against him. Same goes for Snake. If you pick up MK against him, you'll get 50:50 regardless of your skill level.)
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
MK deals with Wario just fine. >_>
He said "highly skilled" players, which in my book would be a states top 5 (or so) players in areas with a large, proven, scene. This is why it is not a strawman to say "Really? Top players have lost to noob MK's? Do you have examples?". He made a statement, I asked for proof-asking for proof. Maybe it was an exaggerated statement, however he should have chosen his words more clearly, because it sounded as if he thought players on the caliber of say, Azen's level (or slightly lower), were losing to random MK's.
The main point is that if you take issue with MK having a lot of match ups in his advantage, than you should take issue with ANY character with such an attribute. More over, there are to many people that seem to forget that we are playing a fighting game, where matchups inherently play a role in deciding who wins.
You do not need a character to have a "counter" in order to beat him, you just need a character that runs even or close to it against said character, so that the main variable in deciding a winner is who is more skilled.
Cuz i'm bout to THREE STOCK this **** Debate. MUHAHAHA. =D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArHas4eozE
MUUUUUUUUUUUUAHAHHAAH!!!!!!!
"Highly skilled" is not "top". If he had meant "top players" he would have said "top players".
All we've got is "close to it", given stage counterpick advantages for MK. There is no even that has been proven in practice.
GofG
Smash Champion
Are we still ****ing talking about this?
Howabout we ban everyone involved and move on with our lives.
Howabout we ban everyone involved and move on with our lives.
Well, one of MK's best options for dealing with projectile-based camping is to ledge stall. And, while this wasn't your argument, some people (Atlantic North) want to ban ledge stalling, because they think it's boring.
This has the side effect of making projectile camping more effective, and removing one of MK's answers to camping.
Unfortunately, they aren't the majority of players. Unless they manage to convince more regions to ban ledge stalling (or they decide to unban it), MK will have a different set of tools to use depending on the tournaments, which will confuse the issue even more.
GofG
Smash Champion
apoaishepoifjafI'm a big boy. I can handle four people laughing at me.
Might their numbers double in size, to eight people? =P
I just couldn't resist.
**** YOU TOO EDRESSESPIECES!!!
WE DON'T NEED YOU AND YOUR STUPID SUGARY PEANUTBUTTERY CHOCOLATY GOODNESS
Who are some of these "highly skilled" players then, that are losing?
Even/close to even, is pretty much the same difference. Having a 6-4 advantage means very little in the whole scheme of things. Counter picks? So MK lost the first match? So then the better player won on a roughly "neutral" stage and would likely win game 3 in a similar situation, after a loss in game 2.
GofG
Smash Champion
You know, Samurai Panda is still around. It's not like we're talking about the Bible here. It's clear to me that he was talking about people who go to tournaments to compete, rather than people who play 99 stock matches on Bridge of Eldin with items on in their basement with their friends, but apparently other people think he meant something else.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Zomg Wario!? Time to pull out my Luigi/Marth/whoever destroys Wario!
Counterpicking at it's best.
Hype
Smash Lord
^ yes that would be marth ^
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I prefer Luigi, he is more annoying and he can perform a shoryuken.
OH MY GOD I CAN HAVE AN ACTUAL SECONDARY THAT ISN'T MK!
OH MY GOD I CAN HAVE AN ACTUAL SECONDARY THAT ISN'T MK!
choknater
Smash Obsessed
The percentage evened up a little bit more, but the lead has been at a consistent ~200 points.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
choknater I want a blue name...
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
<.< Does this poll even have a deadline?
ftl
Smash Journeyman
No. In fact, the poll does not even decide anything, it's just out of curiosity.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Stage bans remove a much smaller component in the game. Characters have quite a bit more diversity and add a great deal more to the metagame then stages in the way of diversity.
But there IS considerable controversy over stage bans.
I was mostly saying we do ban something that removes player options, so there is a precedent as far as that goes. The rest was just kinda carrying on where that lead.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Of course, nobody here ever said that a character CANNOT be banned.
The criteria however is much more stringent for characters then anything else.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
especially the best and most popular character of a widely played video game
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
why would there be a ban criteria for any other character besides the best? and why would any other character be the most popular if they aren't the best?
streetracr77
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2008
- Messages
- 488
Its interesting to see the poll votes change. I think no ban is going up more than yes to ban is.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
They're going up by the same amount. The gap between them is a constant (about 200 votes).
Theoretically, the no ban side will never catch up, the percentages will only get infinitely closer, while never reaching even (limits are fun!).
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Ugh... enough with this noise... I swear, the Bill Cosby in my sig cries everytime you speak.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
thats not the point, im saying that the banning criteria SHOULD be harsh, because of those reasons.
I already corrected that in the quote below, it was poor word choice. Get over it.
"
As I have stated previously, I am on the fence about metaknight. Just to be clear.
But to continue on what i was saying. Metaknight has a few advantages most characters don't. An overall superior moveset. No stage weakness. No character weakness with a few neutrals. I happen to play one of those neutrals which is part of the reason I am on the fence. While I have not experienced extreme difficulty vs metaknight I can see how he limits which characters are played at tournaments and how far more would be played were he not a factor. My preference is to see more characters at tournaments. But I also hate banning.
While you are correct, every game has those characters that are "top" and "low". Most do not have a character that dominates and changes the game the way metaknight does. If he was banned, tournaments and results would be much more varied. Many games that do, ban those things/characters.
As for the Snake thing, it sounds like you said that a noob cannot pick up metaknight and beat a good snake basically? My point was that if a noob picks up metaknight they are going to fair MUCH better against opponents of higher skill. More so by a pretty big margin than if the noob picked up a character other than metaknight. The reason metaknight is so popular is that he has a pretty low learning curves and is easiest to win with against the majority, and those that are not easy still are not that hard comparatively.
My friend is a prime example of what I was saying. I beat him in 8-9/10 matches, one day he decided to use metaknight after reading up on him and practicing. Suddenly that ratio went down to like 5-6/10 matches. Matches became more even and less one sided even though he lacks in skill when compared. He uses any other character he can't come close.
My position presently is that metaknight is unbalanced to the point where he is an outlier that offsets the average so to speak. Until we can figure out how to balance the "average" I think there should be a temporary ban."
The problem if MK CAN be balanced is that once he's temporary banned, people will be too lazy to continue trying to balance him when they can just go on ignoring him as he is banned. I think thats perfectly fine, but people argue that would be unfair to MKs, which it is.
But you know, MK...
...you'll get no sympathy from me...
But you know, MK...
...you'll get no sympathy from me...
streetracr77
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2008
- Messages
- 488
Oh ok, Ive only been watching the poll for a week or two. I'm glad the no ban side will never catch up.
Anther
Smash Champion
That math work Dark Sonic... XD...
If it's constant it's not getting infinitely closer... and since it's a poll... if it was moving at a rate to get infinitely closer then it'll eventually pass it!! ... since votes are integers and not every number on the number line. (starts barkig)
It's more valid if this always happens, but I'm even a counter case where I do worse with MK vs my other mains ;p. A players relative talent with different characters can't be effectively factored in, plus since you threw in the fact that he practiced and studied...
If it's constant it's not getting infinitely closer... and since it's a poll... if it was moving at a rate to get infinitely closer then it'll eventually pass it!! ... since votes are integers and not every number on the number line. (starts barkig)
You can't say he researched and practiced and then say that only metaknight is the reason he started going even with you. The fact that he became more knowledgeable and the fact that you don't know how to fight meta as effectively as you need to fight against him vs other characters that he plays against you also factor into your argument, not making it very valid for the purposes of banning MK.jman115 said:
It's more valid if this always happens, but I'm even a counter case where I do worse with MK vs my other mains ;p. A players relative talent with different characters can't be effectively factored in, plus since you threw in the fact that he practiced and studied...
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