Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

he said dont use him in tourneys to avoid him getting banned. AKA soft ban for a period of time, then back to using him. why would a person who supports the ban say that?

He challenged the anti-ban crowd to put their money where their mouth is and demonstrate it's not MK alone that's letting them win so much.

It's not enough by itself because it doesn't really say he's on either side.

 

[DanGR]

I support a ban. For now, a soft ban is great though. (is what's happening in my region)

 

[da K.I.D.]

question:
salabob says no and as my sig says, i agree, but...

should regions where mk is, or suspected to be softbanned, count in ankokus character rankings?

 

[brinboy789]

He challenged the anti-ban crowd to put their money where their mouth is and demonstrate it's not MK alone that's letting them win so much.

It's not enough by itself because it doesn't really say he's on either side.

it wasnt a challenge. it was a suggestion, an idea to how to get him safe from the banhammer. and of course, proban people are obviously going to give suggestions to how to get MK unbanned.

 

[Skyshroud]

question:
salabob says no and as my sig says, i agree, but...

should regions where mk is, or suspected to be softbanned, count in ankokus character rankings?

I don't think so. Keeping them separate would only help organizing the differences between the meta with and without Meta.

 

[salaboB]

question:
salabob says no and as my sig says, i agree, but...

should regions where mk is, or suspected to be softbanned, count in ankokus character rankings?

I don't recall specifically commenting for the character rankings, but I do have an opinion there and it does tend towards no.

Adding for-sure soft bans to the unbanned category doesn't make sense to me. If it's truly soft banned they should end up wherever the MK hard banned tournies go, because it will be the same set of winners whether either ban is in place -- and if an OoS player shows up and dominates with MK in a region where all the local best players have accepted a soft ban, it still shouldn't go in the main set because others could very likely have chosen MK against him except for the soft ban so that still biases the results.

However, it's hard to tell if the soft ban is complete or not, and I believe soft bans were showing up at scattered tournies for a long time before people started commenting on it so some results like that are already mixed in. That makes it a bit harder to tell when a soft ban is in place and to what extent it's skewed the results. So as always, the character rankings need to be looked at with the realities of why people choose their characters in mind (Both game balance and social balance).

That's my take on it.

it wasnt a challenge. it was a suggestion, an idea to how to get him safe from the banhammer. and of course, proban people are obviously going to give suggestions to how to get MK unbanned.

He specifically said "Prove that other characters can win." That's not a challenge to put their money where their mouth is and show it's not just MK giving them victories they can't easily get with other characters?

 

[Praxis]

I know Santi has, and he's the best Toon Link I've ever heard of, is that enough?

*cough*Chip*cough*

 

[Praxis]

No. I stopped reading after point 2, which is just ridiculous. There are answers to several of his attacks, and MK does not **** the cast like many other characters do. Removing MK is not going to increase character variety as much as people would like to believe. There's no point in reading a post based on false information.

Then you are dumb. You didn't even get to his argument before dismissing it. Go back and finish the read.

 

[popsofctown]

It's almost impossible to measure soft ban. It's not a status, it's an amount, an amount of stigma around a character. It really boils down to a percentage, some unknown percentage of players who would be using Meta Knight if there was zero stigma (including stigma that comes from the player themselves truly not wanting to play the broken/"broken" character in the game).

In California, this unknown percentage is probably like 3%. In midwest, maybe it's 50%. These are guesses, who can say? Not even the players themselves. I chose not to play him because he's too good, but that's before i even decided which characters match my playstyle. I can't tell you if MK matches my playstyle without bias, i have to much stigma and my region has it too.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm trying to point out that it doesn't make more characters viable in a sense. It just means that the MK players will go to other players, which increases character variety in a different manner.

In my opinion, these would be the main characters that would be effected if Metaknight was banned:

Most benefitted: Olimar, Marth, Pikachu, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers (ie; characters who would probably rank a lot higher if MK didn't completely destroy them)

Slightly benefitted: Mr. Game and Watch, Wario, ROB, King Dedede, Peach, everyone not listed below (ie; most top/high tier characters that are weighed down by Metaknight and characters who would fair better against some of the high/top tier characters besides MK like Zelda and Luigi)

Not change significantly: Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Lucario, Toon Link, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic (ie; characters who suck without the help of Metaknight or don't do completely God awful against him like Lucario and Ike *given the right stage*)

Slightly hurt: Bowser, Donkey Kong, Snake, Diddy Kong, Shiek (ie; pseudo Metaknight counters)

Greatly hurt: Yoshi, Jigglypuff (ie; characters who are mostly used to semi-counter Metaknight or get completely destroyed by the remaining top/high tier characters)

One of the requirements for voting in this thread should be if you play competitively and go to tourneys, or if you would go to more tourneys if MK were to be banned.

Yeah, this should have been offical instead of just letting random people vote.

 

[Mortimer]

However, it's hard to tell if the soft ban is complete or not, and I believe soft bans were showing up at scattered tournies for a long time before people started commenting on it so some results like that are already mixed in. That makes it a bit harder to tell when a soft ban is in place and to what extent it's skewed the results. So as always, the character rankings need to be looked at with the realities of why people choose their characters in mind (Both game balance and social balance).

This makes me wonder: Has anybody run the rankings and only taken tournaments where MK didn't place at all in the top 8? Do any character's positions shift around, or does it stay relatively the same?

Obviously this would be a flawed method for estimating MK-less tourney results, but it might be interesting to see.

 

[Praxis]

It's almost impossible to measure soft ban. It's not a status, it's an amount, an amount of stigma around a character. It really boils down to a percentage, some unknown percentage of players who would be using Meta Knight if there was zero stigma (including stigma that comes from the player themselves truly not wanting to play the broken/"broken" character in the game).

In California, this unknown percentage is probably like 3%. In midwest, maybe it's 50%. These are guesses, who can say? Not even the players themselves. I chose not to play him because he's too good, but that's before i even decided which characters match my playstyle. I can't tell you if MK matches my playstyle without bias, i have to much stigma and my region has it too.

Yeah, soft bans are often completely unspoken. WA's got this. Eggz is shifting to Dedede because he dislikes the stigma, brdy's complaining, and Jem's attacking everyone and praising MK (yet, he mains Falco). None of the other 17 PR players will touch MK, and there's probably ten scrubby MK's everyone can beat.

Slightly hurt: ... Shiek (ie; pseudo Metaknight counters)

lolwut?

 

[popsofctown]

Haha, might still be Snake and DK. "Ohkay, ohkay, I'm ready to fight MK, i can take him. Cmon! What the.... What in the sam hill is going on here? Oh well, Snake is full of win anyway."

 

[Fatmanonice]

lolwut?

When I say "pseudo counters", I mean characters that are considered Metaknight counters in some circles (like Diddy and DK) or used to be considered counters by "higher playing" players (like Bowser and Shiek).

 

[adumbrodeus]

This wording confuses me.

Are you saying that Snake cannot effectively grenade camp an MK and then Tilt and/or run away with Mortar Slide thereafter whenever the MK gets too close?

Tilts are too short range. Sure ftilt can hit, but it's only the second hit which is very slow and punishable.

Morter slide, more then 7 frames start-up, it can be reacted to.

 

[Praxis]

When I say "pseudo counters", I mean characters that are considered Metaknight counters in some circles (like Diddy and DK) or used to be considered counters by "higher playing" players (like Bowser and Shiek).

I've never heard of Shiek being in this class. I know what you mean- Bowser's considered a pseudo-counter in that he goes ALMOST even because he's got a CG, same with Yoshi- but I've never heard Shiek considered such.

Gimpyfish (mains Shiek in Brawl) is local here and he has beaten the best Marth in the state, but doesn't beat the MK mains without picking MK...

 

[brinboy789]

He specifically said "Prove that other characters can win." That's not a challenge to put their money where their mouth is and show it's not just MK giving them victories they can't easily get with other characters?

he suggesting that MK users abandon him for a period of time, so other chars will win so that MK avoid the banhammer. hes not specifically saying that they should do it its a suggestion. anyways, why doesnt someone get hylian in here and ask him is he against or for the MK ban?

 

[popsofctown]

Sheik boards give Sheik an accurate 70-30 against MK.

The impression might originate from the the phenomenon called ftilt, that sometimes give Sheik awesome tournament wins against opponents who aren't familiar with Sheik. Her ftilt is one of the few moves in the game that require you to DI towards it, DI away gets you to like..... 80%.

Sheik is not a counter. She's just capable of flukes.

 

[salaboB]

he suggesting that MK users abandon him for a period of time, so other chars will win so that MK avoid the banhammer. hes not specifically saying that they should do it its a suggestion. anyways, why doesnt someone get hylian in here and ask him is he against or for the MK ban?

He voted yes. Unless you can find a post by him after this vote went up that specifically says he's changed his mind, I think it's safe to say Hylian is in favor of banning MK.

 

[ftl]

Fail post on my part was fail. Deleted.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've never heard of Shiek being in this class. I know what you mean- Bowser's considered a pseudo-counter in that he goes ALMOST even because he's got a CG, same with Yoshi- but I've never heard Shiek considered such.

Gimpyfish (mains Shiek in Brawl) is local here and he has beaten the best Marth in the state, but doesn't beat the MK mains without picking MK...

Well, when the Shiek boards started looking into the tilt locks earlier this year, it was believed for a short time that she easily had a 70%+ ftilt lock on Metaknight like she has if Ness/Lucas/Fox/Wolf don't DI'd towards her after the first hit or if she screws up the timing. Keep in mind that this was thought before it was discovered that it was possible to DI out of. Also, as you can see in some of Gimpy's videos, it's very easy to go into fairs, utilts, grabs, and even usmashes from well placed ftilts so this contributed to this idea too.

 

[Jman115]

@Jman115


I know Santi has, and he's the best Toon Link I've ever heard of, is that enough?

Your friends probably aren't super, uber bad, but they are probably suffering from poor projectile evasion. There's a really steep learning curve before you start perfect shielding, sheilding, and dodging all/nearly all the projectiles sent at you. This is most visible with Toon Link and Pit, but it's present across the board. Remember when everyone thought Tlink and Pit were top tier? That's back when everyone sucked at dodging projectiles. At uber high levels of play, boomerangs pretty much never hit anyone, maybe one arrows per match. Santi uses lots of bombs, because they travel fastest and make openings.

Boomerangs and arrows may not always hit, but they do help direct your opponent where you want them and limit where they can/are going.

Also, I don't use projectiles much on MK.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

If you actually read, my first post was referring to point 2 in general, which if you actually read that, you would find that Edrees brings up the point that the tornado is unanswerable.

So, in conclusion, reading > stupidity.

EDIT: Shadowlink: You've started to hit the nail on the head now. That is the argument I think Edrees should have used. The tornado itself is not to blame, but the combination between the tornado and the rest of MK's moveset in a good players hands.

I didn't say tornado is unanswerable. I said it is unanswerable by half of the cast, and makes these matchups far more one sided than most match-ups in the game by virtue of being unable to counter an attack.

"Don't get hit" is not a reasonable arguement, you can just as easily tell the metaknight player "don't miss" What's important of worth to discussion is the liklihood that metaknight will hit with the tornado against these characters, and if you go to any tournament, you'll see it happening a heck of lot, even to great players who know the matchup. I don't see the difference between telling someone not get hit by tornado from telling them not to get hit by items. Both can be avoided with enough skill yet one is banned and the other is not. Simply because one is 'random,' but as I said, good players should be able to overcome something that is random the same way it is argued that good players should be have to overcome Metaknight.

Basically, my arguement against Metaknight is, copy and paste your own arguement against items, and boom. There's my arguement against metaknight. The only slight alteration is that instead of 'good players shouldn't have to overcome randomness' is slightly altered to "good players shouldn't have to overcome metaknight." I just don't see a logical way to be against one. To me perfect logic dictates thatif you can accept items being banned, you can at least understand why people want Metaknight to be banned.

Part of the reason against items is that you are playing a different game, a game that we don't want really value as smashers (ability to overcome items and play with them) And what MK banners are saying, is that we dont' want to make the game about overcoming a matchup that can never be in your favor and never being able to counterpick that character. The situations are completely analogous - we don't want to play a style of game that is drastically different from the style of game if we remove that element from the game.

Basically if we ban MK, IMO we are suddenly playing a completely different game and to me the question simply is which game is preferable - a game based on overcoming matchup deficiencies AND finding counter characters, or a game based ONLY on overcoming matchup decencies? Kind of like "do we want to play with items on or off - game based on testing skilsets between characters, or a game based on dealing with items and such." Of course, my argument is based on the idea that you agree that no one has the advantage over MK. If you disagree with that, then true, what I say isn't so applicable, but most people agree he doesn't have a disadvantage.


ONCE AGAIN, to make it clear if you didn't read the blog, MANY THINGS WE BAN DO NOT HAVE TO BE BROKEN, THEY JUST HAVE TO BE A DEPARTURE FROM THE REST OF THE GAME - LIKE THE ITEMS WE BAN (LIKE FOOD, FAN, AND BUMPER)

 

[KosukeKGA]

Maybe someone should make a rule that if one person picks MK, the other person must do so resulting in an MK ditto.

 

[DanGR]

Maybe someone should make a rule that if one person picks MK, the other person must do so resulting in an MK ditto.

It's already a "rule". >_>

 

[Anther]

I <3 that rule.

 

[da K.I.D.]

depends on your area,
any area that doesnt already have a soft ban in place, the rule is to play MK vs MK

other than that i think my idea is still the best non-banning Mk idea out there...

you cant pick him on the character screen but should you go random, you play with whatever the games random number generator gives you

 

[Praxis]

I didn't say tornado is unanswerable. I said it is unanswerable by half of the cast, and makes these matchups far more one sided than most match-ups in the game by virtue of being unable to counter an attack.

"Don't get hit" is not a reasonable arguement, you can just as easily tell the metaknight player "don't miss" What's important of worth to discussion is the liklihood that metaknight will hit with the tornado against these characters, and if you go to any tournament, you'll see it happening a heck of lot, even to great players who know the matchup. I don't see the difference between telling someone not get hit by tornado from telling them not to get hit by items. Both can be avoided with enough skill yet one is banned and the other is not. Simply because one is 'random,' but as I said, good players should be able to overcome something that is random the same way it is argued that good players should be have to overcome Metaknight.

Basically, my arguement against Metaknight is, copy and paste your own arguement against items, and boom. There's my arguement against metaknight. The only slight alteration is that instead of 'good players shouldn't have to overcome randomness' is slightly altered to "good players shouldn't have to overcome metaknight." I just don't see a logical way to be against one. To me perfect logic dictates thatif you can accept items being banned, you can at least understand why people want Metaknight to be banned.

Part of the reason against items is that you are playing a different game, a game that we don't want really value as smashers (ability to overcome items and play with them) And what MK banners are saying, is that we dont' want to make the game about overcoming a matchup that can never be in your favor and never being able to counterpick that character. The situations are completely analogous - we don't want to play a style of game that is drastically different from the style of game if we remove that element from the game.

Basically if we ban MK, IMO we are suddenly playing a completely different game and to me the question simply is which game is preferable - a game based on overcoming matchup deficiencies AND finding counter characters, or a game based ONLY on overcoming matchup decencies? Kind of like "do we want to play with items on or off - game based on testing skilsets between characters, or a game based on dealing with items and such." Of course, my argument is based on the idea that you agree that no one has the advantage over MK. If you disagree with that, then true, what I say isn't so applicable, but most people agree he doesn't have a disadvantage.


ONCE AGAIN, to make it clear if you didn't read the blog, MANY THINGS WE BAN DO NOT HAVE TO BE BROKEN, THEY JUST HAVE TO BE A DEPARTURE FROM THE REST OF THE GAME - LIKE THE ITEMS WE BAN (LIKE FOOD, FAN, AND BUMPER)

This post wins. QFT.

 

[GofG]

EdreesesPieces turns everything he touches into owned.

 

[Fatmanonice]

depends on your area,
any area that doesnt already have a soft ban in place, the rule is to play MK vs MK

other than that i think my idea is still the best non-banning Mk idea out there...

you cant pick him on the character screen but should you go random, you play with whatever the games random number generator gives you

That's not fair... Not everyone is good with everyone and, even if they are, there are still different degrees of which characters they are good with. For example, I suck with Snake and would probably lose the match against most high tier characters if I were forced to play as him.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I here a lot of banning a character is stupid and scrubish but I actually posted something about MK banned tournaments in other boards that have very little to do with brawl and the response was mostly wow Smash is starting to become an actual fighting game.

 

[pastaboy]

did they think it was a shooter? only playin snake using his final smash 24/7

 

[Its_You]

Ban Metaknight! DX

 

[da K.I.D.]

they probably thought it was a party game and the only minigame was who can do the most tornadoes without getting dizzy

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Ban Metaknight! DX

Nice first post....

 

[Overswarm]

I once tried to get people to play Brawl, but they saw me and my lil bro playing MK dittos and asked if this was just a tornado-minigame. True story I just made up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

someone link that gimpy and eggz doubles match

 

[Justblaze647]

someone link that gimpy and eggz doubles match

Done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVFFbHo2fc8&eurl=http://www.allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=6828

 

[Skyshroud]

Edrees: Thanks for clarifying what you meant about the tornado; I took it differently.

Does anyone think the poll for this thread is actually kind of out dated in a way? I mean that we should have had a poll with yes, no, and temporary. (i.e. needs testing)

 

[infomon]

Does anyone think the poll for this thread is actually kind of out dated in a way? I mean that we should have had a poll with yes, no, and temporary. (i.e. needs testing)

Outdated? I was arguing that the poll is flawed (for that reason and others) on the first page.