ya cuz i mean its EVERYONE WHO USES MK another reason why he shuldnt be banned...
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
asob4
Smash Champion
you're telling us to train for MK, why should we ONLY have to train for MK?
because he's gonna be used by a majority of the players there?
because he's gonna be used by a majority of the players there?
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Yes, unfortunately, that's how Brawl is going to turn out to be. He's a top tier character, and since people want to win tourneys, they pick characters with a high expectancy rate of winning. OTHER CHARACTERS LIKE SNAKE CAN COUNTER HIM THOUGH!
Maybe you should drop it and play another game that many people suggest here?
Welcome to competitive fighting games.
Maybe you should drop it and play another game that many people suggest here?
Welcome to competitive fighting games.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Nah, it should confirm advantage because Mew2King is better than me. I don't know if I'd go even now because we haven't sat down and played the match for a while now, but I'm confident I could win some matches regardless of him being the best player..... won't that confirm Neutral though? Not Advantage?
First of all, me and Basic Sausage never played in tourny and I won most of the friendlies.
Second of all, here's a strategy to consistently beat Meta Knight: Pick Snake.
exactly and apparently he seems to be the biggest threat so focus more on him. my only threat is olimar i can beat mk alrdy
u ***** my diddy ;[ lol ima pick up bowser for mk >.>
M.K
Level 55
People seriously need to get updated with the facts.
Snake, Olimar, Bowser, and DK are NOT counters for Meta-Knight. They aren't even close.
You look at the amount of advancement in each of those character's boards, and not ONE of them says anything about countering Meta-Knight. Snake, Yoshi, and all the rest might have been considered at one point, but it all just falls back to the facts.
IT IS A CONTINOUS CYCLE!!
*Pro Play wins as Diddy against MK*
"Diddy is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Diddy to MK*
"Nope"
*Pro Play wins as Snake against MK*
"Snake is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Snake to MK*
"Nope"
*Pro Play wins as Yoshi against MK*
"Yoshi is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Yoshi to MK*
"Nope"
Et Cetera.
Snake, Olimar, Bowser, and DK are NOT counters for Meta-Knight. They aren't even close.
You look at the amount of advancement in each of those character's boards, and not ONE of them says anything about countering Meta-Knight. Snake, Yoshi, and all the rest might have been considered at one point, but it all just falls back to the facts.
IT IS A CONTINOUS CYCLE!!
*Pro Play wins as Diddy against MK*
"Diddy is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Diddy to MK*
"Nope"
*Pro Play wins as Snake against MK*
"Snake is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Snake to MK*
"Nope"
*Pro Play wins as Yoshi against MK*
"Yoshi is a MK Counter!!"
*Pro Player loses as Yoshi to MK*
"Nope"
Et Cetera.
Actually, it wasn't debunked, at least not two weeks later. NinjaLink didn't lose to an MK until he lost to Inui like a month and a half later. However, the people that wanted MK banned referenced Ninjalinks performance at CH4, where he placed 7th. The assumption being his placement was caused by an MK, when in reality he didn't lose to any MK's (he lost to Seibrik's D3 and I forget who else, but it wasn't an MK, actually, I think he beat Forte or Plank (2 MK's were in 9th place IIRC at CH4)...no one ever confirmed this though). And it wasn't just that be beat M2K, it was that he beat M2K, Omni, and one other MK (Forte or Plank, forget which, always confuse their placings) at CH3, essentially 3 of the top 5 MK's on the East Coast, all in one tournament. All at a time when people said MK should be banned and no one would ever do such a feet.
If a match up is even, or even 6-4 either way, then sets will go back and forth tournament to tournament.
Its hypocritical to claim that one tournament win is meaningless, then to go around and say that one tournament loss proves that MK beats x character. Looking at the whole spectrum of top Diddy's versus MK and the match up seems even still.
kigbariom
Smash Lord
Ugh, meant to say "YES"
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It couldn't POSSIBLY be because signifigant anti-banning sentiment exists and that's coloring people's perceptions of the match-ups, nah. We all know that people are ALWAYS unbiased with their matchups, right?
Again, no. Once outside of range to safely pull nades, MK owns Snake, and Snake cannot prevent that spacing.
Actually i 3 stocked NL's diddy in about a minute and a half at ch3. the matchup is so easy for MK if he plays it correctly
must've been forte who he beat
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
straight from the MKs mouth.Actually i 3 stocked NL's diddy in about a minute and a half at ch3. the matchup is so easy for MK if he plays it correctly
once again (i feel like im saying this like once a day now)
lack of matchup knowledge counters everybody
MK doesnt get countered or even beat by any character.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
This wording confuses me.
Are you saying that Snake cannot effectively grenade camp an MK and then Tilt and/or run away with Mortar Slide thereafter whenever the MK gets too close?
Ulevo
Smash Master
That's exactly what he's saying. It's confusing because it's wrong.
Give me actual reasons, facts, et cetera... Why Snake doesn't beat Meta Knight when playing the match up properly, please. And I'll throw a brick at the next person that brings in "gimping" as their crutch.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Meh, thats not really anything to do with MK. Beating diddy is easy for me with any character, there's a simple strategy that counters him, not a character
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thats like asking why Mk beats sonic but saying you cant cite the fact that Mk out ranges and out prioritises sonic at every turn as part of your argumment.
The main problem for Snake that I've seen talked about is MK's dtilt outranges the first hit of Snake's ftilt, and he can safely block the second (Which is punishable on block). It also can poke Snake without triggering a grenade that Snake is cooking.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
is there a simple strat like that against MK that characters can take advantage of?
cus you could kill this entire debat right now if there was
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
They have ways to counter but they are not counters because Metaknight still has more against them. DK has a long reach and excellent KO potential but he's easier than most characters to juggle, "combo", grab, and his off stage game isn't that great. Metaknight excels in all three of these categories and he can still cut through a majority of DK's attacks with the tornado. With this being said, I think the match up is still 70-30 in Metaknight's favor.
Regarding Bowser, he a few grab releases on Metaknight, can kill him as low as 60% with the Bowser Bomb (down B), and has an easier time catching him in the fire breath than most characters. Despite this, he still has many of the same problems that DK has. This match up is 60-40, I believe because playing a good Bowser is about playing freakishly defensive as it is so it at least gives him somewhat of a break from an onslaught.
Why do you think people AREN'T training? Every character board has at least one thread dedicated to advice against Metaknight and, heck, this board even has a thread made by Mew2king about it and there's even one dedicated exclusively to countering the tornado. I'm getting sick of hearing people argue "well, you're just not trying hard enough" when people genuinelly are and are still losing even at the higher levels.
@ Inui:
From what I've noticed, camping with Snake works really well against Metaknight if the Metaknight is overly aggressive or is not very patient. If this is the case, grenade jackets (as I like to call them, where you drop or hold a grenade, shield, and then let them attack you to set it off), are extremelly effective against Metaknight but it isn't a sure fire strategy and the tournament results have shown this. Snake used to be ahead by a couple of wins and now Metaknight has more than double then him.
Extremelly gay camping is nothing new with Snake and people have been using it since Psycho ****** pretty much got the techniques down flat and made them Snake's bread and butter. People have found ways around it which is why it's said that Metaknight still has a slight advantage of 55-45. Heck, Snake even has a nice ground grab release into a utilt/ftilt against him and, again, Metaknight still has the advantage based on other factors (mainly Metaknight's offstage game).
Add in: More or less, a good Metaknight player can counter a really campy Snake by being even more so patient than the Snake player.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
So you're saying gimping is the main reason why Snake loses to MK?
That has no direct influence upon Snake's grenade camping and tilting.
That would be MK's dtilt.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Where exactly have you seen this?
People have stated that it outreaches the first hit of Snake's ftilt, MK can get his shield up in time to block the second if Snake tries it, and if you dtilt when he's dropped a grenade to punish you I believe the blast doesn't hit MK but just shieldstuns Snake more.
Have you checked whether Snake can easily get past an MK that just plants barely out of range and starts dtilt pressuring him?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
it's true. MKs down tilt is his best move vs Snake on the ground, but if it doesn't trip them then it's just mere damage. I've spaced down tilts on Snakes hoping they would trip only for them to get pushed back slightly and F tilt me before I knew what was happening.
btw, even though MK's F tilt has slightly more range than snakes F tilt, should you either mistime it by a frame or trade hits, MK' s F tilt will do 3 to Snake, Snake's F tilt will do 8 to MK, then Snake will get another F tilt on Snake, so that's like ... 27 damage? or something?
so what MK should do is stay in the air and space Fairs and Dairs...
...but then later I learned that Snake can do F tilt really fast, and the 2nd hit of Snake's F Tilt easily outprioritizes and outranges a spaced MK fair (yeah I know it shouldn't but it does), doing 13 damage to MK. However, at least in the air, at anything other than low %s (a 2 hit 18% F tilt can hit MK in the air as Snake without knocking them too far back at really low %s) you are safe from a 2 hit F tilt.
You can also shield release into mortar slide against a lot of moves in this game. The dash attack not only has good priority, but it comes out fast, does 11%, and often the grenade follows up to hit them. Whether it hits them or not is mostly based on the initial DI from the dash attack which most people won't DI which is good for Snake, as they will often air dodge into the falling bomb. Should they get lucky and dodge it with the air dodge, Snake can just dash grab, F Tilt, or dash attack where they land.
Snake's F tilt range is in between MK's tilts and MK's smashes. While MK's F smash doesn't have much range, it seems to have a lot of priority. Even though MK's down smash has almost the exact same range as MK's F smash, F tilt seems to beat it all the time.
also you can't just base off tourney results. A lot of top players use MK against people they would win against anyway with a different character, just to skewer tourney results towards MK for Ankoku's list so that even more people use him and he's more likely to get banned, which helps their main or their best true character, and they often copy off of other good MK player's tactics to make it more skewered. I'll tell you right now that Sheik is the best character in Melee, but because of her much lower popularity, and tourney results from Ken/Azen/me/PC, much more people use Marth and Fox including top players, making their results better. I do believe potentially Sheik is the best character though, despite tourney results not showing that.
btw, even though MK's F tilt has slightly more range than snakes F tilt, should you either mistime it by a frame or trade hits, MK' s F tilt will do 3 to Snake, Snake's F tilt will do 8 to MK, then Snake will get another F tilt on Snake, so that's like ... 27 damage? or something?
so what MK should do is stay in the air and space Fairs and Dairs...
...but then later I learned that Snake can do F tilt really fast, and the 2nd hit of Snake's F Tilt easily outprioritizes and outranges a spaced MK fair (yeah I know it shouldn't but it does), doing 13 damage to MK. However, at least in the air, at anything other than low %s (a 2 hit 18% F tilt can hit MK in the air as Snake without knocking them too far back at really low %s) you are safe from a 2 hit F tilt.
You can also shield release into mortar slide against a lot of moves in this game. The dash attack not only has good priority, but it comes out fast, does 11%, and often the grenade follows up to hit them. Whether it hits them or not is mostly based on the initial DI from the dash attack which most people won't DI which is good for Snake, as they will often air dodge into the falling bomb. Should they get lucky and dodge it with the air dodge, Snake can just dash grab, F Tilt, or dash attack where they land.
Snake's F tilt range is in between MK's tilts and MK's smashes. While MK's F smash doesn't have much range, it seems to have a lot of priority. Even though MK's down smash has almost the exact same range as MK's F smash, F tilt seems to beat it all the time.
also you can't just base off tourney results. A lot of top players use MK against people they would win against anyway with a different character, just to skewer tourney results towards MK for Ankoku's list so that even more people use him and he's more likely to get banned, which helps their main or their best true character, and they often copy off of other good MK player's tactics to make it more skewered. I'll tell you right now that Sheik is the best character in Melee, but because of her much lower popularity, and tourney results from Ken/Azen/me/PC, much more people use Marth and Fox including top players, making their results better. I do believe potentially Sheik is the best character though, despite tourney results not showing that.
MK is the best character in Brawl -- like you say Sheik was for Melee.
Yet he has the no-terrible-stages like I've been told repeatedly that Fox did in Melee.
Do you think anyone would have been playing those other characters by the end if these two attributes were available in one selection in Melee? Give it time for people to figure out how really hard it is to counter MK and overcome their worries about being labelled as losers for using him, and there's no real reason for people to not switch to MK and never look back.
Daimonster
Smash Journeyman
Sounds like my road. I enjoy using many other characters, exluding metaknight, and did fairly well in tournament. However, once I picked up MK to combat my highest level of skilled players in tournament...I found the win MUCH easier to accomplish than using my other characters. Even when the matchup comes down to MK vs MK...I'd take that over MK vs any other character any day.
Imo, why use any other character to win if it takes so much extra effort to do so?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
no, he does. Corneria is a terrible stage for MK against Snake, and im sure theres plenty of other matchups where he's not good. Fox doesn't have awful counterpicks. JJ you can run away, and Brinstar isn't bad.
I also find other MKs extremely easy. Like, I would probably win anyway, but the fact that sometimes MKs take out other people (that I would have more trouble with by comparison) so I can just MK ditto them makes it easy for me. I used to hate MK dittos and thought I sucked at them, but then I did them for a bit and just got good at them through repetition. Same as I did in Melee matchups, through repetition, except the difference is I only have like 10 hours (at most) of MK dittos done ever, compared to hundreds of hours in melee.
Some pikachu almost beat my marth in E52 pools, yet every Marth player there that marth dittoed me wasn't even close. Same for all the fox's there, except cactuar comes close, but he's the best fox there + knows how I play.
I also find other MKs extremely easy. Like, I would probably win anyway, but the fact that sometimes MKs take out other people (that I would have more trouble with by comparison) so I can just MK ditto them makes it easy for me. I used to hate MK dittos and thought I sucked at them, but then I did them for a bit and just got good at them through repetition. Same as I did in Melee matchups, through repetition, except the difference is I only have like 10 hours (at most) of MK dittos done ever, compared to hundreds of hours in melee.
Some pikachu almost beat my marth in E52 pools, yet every Marth player there that marth dittoed me wasn't even close. Same for all the fox's there, except cactuar comes close, but he's the best fox there + knows how I play.
That has always sounded like Corneria is excellent for Snake, not bad for MK. That's a small but important distinction when looking at stage disadvantages for a character.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Wow, a bad counterpick against Snake! You have to come up with something better than that
I listen to M2K and generally accept with little question what he says about matchups, stages, and move effectiveness. That doesn't mean when he says "MK shouldn't be banned" he's automatically correct.
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
I don't think Corneria should be a legal counterpick in the first place (I believe M2K said the same).
Fin camping, vertical KOs on the fin, wall infinites, and Arwing lasers should be more than enough for the stage to be banned.
Off of that, a few bad counterpick stages shouldn't be enough to keep MK in. It wouldn't be big enough of a deal to stop him from being imbalanced and the best by a very obvious margin.
Fin camping, vertical KOs on the fin, wall infinites, and Arwing lasers should be more than enough for the stage to be banned.
Off of that, a few bad counterpick stages shouldn't be enough to keep MK in. It wouldn't be big enough of a deal to stop him from being imbalanced and the best by a very obvious margin.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
I stopped reading his post when he got to the conspiracy theory that most people winning tournaments with Metaknight are only doing so they can get him banned and advance their own characters. I think this is only true in the case of Overswarm (who I think still mains ROB) but believing there's an underground group of professional players wearing top hats with long slender mustaches saying "Nyah, ha ha, let's get Metaknight banned so Marth/Wario/Lucario/Olimar/Pikachu/Geno becomes top/high tier by winning tournaments with a character we all hate" is a tad on the insane side.
I respect the fact that he's amazing at Smash but I'm almost floored by some of the stuff he has said in order to defend Metaknight (despite supposedly being amazing with King Dedede too).
Unless he's been doing an excellent job of hiding it, Overswarm is a solid MK main as long as MK is allowed.
He tried to find a way around MK with every tool at ROB's disposal and couldn't see a way to win the fight, so he gave up and switched. Now he's said multiple times that it's just so much easier to win as MK he'll keep playing him to rake in the money.
He may be ROB at heart but he's an MK main
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM
I <3 money
NOM NOM NOM (that's me eating non-MK characters with my MK cuz I can) NOM NOM
Also, me maining MK is 100% to get him banned. I can win money with him and that's great and all, but I don't need the money. This isn't paying for my bills or anything, it's just fun money that I can live without. I just want to keep playing smash and know that won't continue if MK is around... so I'm doing my best to get MK banned. I'm doing a good job too, cuz MK is flipping the **** out.
I <3 money
NOM NOM NOM (that's me eating non-MK characters with my MK cuz I can) NOM NOM
Also, me maining MK is 100% to get him banned. I can win money with him and that's great and all, but I don't need the money. This isn't paying for my bills or anything, it's just fun money that I can live without. I just want to keep playing smash and know that won't continue if MK is around... so I'm doing my best to get MK banned. I'm doing a good job too, cuz MK is flipping the **** out.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I don't buy it!
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