Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Mew2King]

lol wow you're clearly trying to do it for your own biased reasons. If rob ***** MK you would support MK staying, please don't make up such obvious lies like that (which also isn't true)

 

[Fatmanonice]

NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM

I <3 money

NOM NOM NOM (that's me eating non-MK characters with my MK cuz I can) NOM NOM



Also, me maining MK is 100% to get him banned. I can win money with him and that's great and all, but I don't need the money. This isn't paying for my bills or anything, it's just fun money that I can live without. I just want to keep playing smash and know that won't continue if MK is around... so I'm doing my best to get MK banned. I'm doing a good job too, cuz MK is flipping the **** out.

See, I told you. Regardless, the notion that there a ton of professional players who are just as enthusiastic as Overswarm about banning Metaknight is laughable.

Add in: @ Mew2King:

You should also note that he said that he believes that with MK being around, Brawl won't remain popular and die a lot faster so, in reality, he isn't just doing it to advance ROB.

 

[salaboB]

lol wow you're clearly trying to do it for your own biased reasons. If rob ***** MK you would support MK staying, please don't make up such obvious lies like that (which also isn't true)

...
If ROB had a significant advantage against MK we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, now would we?

If anyone did we probably wouldn't be. Even Captain Falcon might be enough.

 

[Overswarm]

See, I told you. Regardless, the notion that there a ton of professional players who are just as enthusiastic as Overswarm about banning Metaknight is laughable.

Er... there's a pretty big number. The largest group by far is the "I dunno", though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Er... there's a pretty big number. The largest group by far is the "I dunno", though.

Dear God, it's the JFK Assassination all over again! How big exactly?

 

[GofG]

I'd just like to point out that MLG_JV voted for the ban.

MLG supports the MK ban.

 

[BentoBox]

Thought I'd post Edrees' viewpoint on the matter, though he prolly already did in the BR.

Why the MK should be banned.

I think it’s time I organized my thoughts and made a blog about this. Its needed. First of all, I’d like to give you some background. I was once firmly against the banning of MK. Even when I was getting owned by him. Since then I’ve learned the matchup and can beat most MKs out there rather handily, it is NOT my hardest matchup. It is not even my second toughest matchup personally because I know it so well. HOWEVER, since I’ve learned the matchup more, it has made me realize that Metaknight SHOULD be banned. I have defeated many skilled metaknights in tourney, so don’t for once say “learn the matchup” because, sorry to say I am probably better against metaknight than you are. So toss that thought aside. Now lets get into the real argument.

Two main points:

Point 1: MK removes the need for secondaries and the elegant system of counterpicks and counterpick stages that competitive Smash thrives on. Metaknight has no disadvantaged matchups. He may be 50-50 with some characters, but he has no real disadvantages. This means that ultimately at the highest competitive level, players will resort to him to win. There is no need to use a secondary.

Point 2: MK reduces the character variety in tournament results to a very large degree. Not only do people resort to using Metaknight because other characters will have a disadvantage somewhere, Metaknight has ridicously advantaged matchups with the vast majority of the cast. He strongly impacts the placement of a variety of characters, in a way that no other character does. Snake and GW don’t **** 15-20 characters. They have the advantage, but they don’t have a massively skewed win the same way that MK does. Much of this is due to the tornado, and how many characters don’t have a practical answer to it, and the shuttle loop, of which gimps many characters who also don’t have a real answer to it. MK drastically reduces character variety.

Conclusion: Due to Reasons 1 and 2, MK makes the competitive aura of Brawl much less competitive, much more stupid, and much less enjoyable, far more than any other character.

Now, you may be saying “so what if MK reduces character variety and is by far the best. That’s not enough for a ban” And what is unique about my pro ban MK argument is that, I say, it is surely enough. If removing MK will make competitive brawl more competitive and tournaments more varied and enjoyable, this is reason enough to ban him. Removing Snake, on the contrast, won’t exactly do this, because he already has counters, so removing him just imbalances things further. He needs to be there to keep Game and Watch in check, just as one example. It wouldn’t make the game a better competitive game to remove him in contrast to MK. This is why you cannot make the same argument I am making about any other characters : the matchups are not what MK has.

But on to the point, we HAVE banned things in the past just because the made the game less competitive, scrub friendly, and less enjoyable. Guess what they were? ITEMS, my friend. Items. My basis for banning Metaknight is the same basis I use to ban items – they are stupid, they ruin the competition of the game, and they make it far less enjoyable as a competitive fighter. They make it so people not as skilled can easily compare to those who are, and so on. I’m not talking about bomb-ombs and such, which could randomly kill you and ruin the game far more than Metaknight. I’m talking about fans. Food. Bumpers. These kind of items are banned, yet they imbalance the game FAR less than metaknight. They ruin the competitive scene FAR less than metaknight. And I say, if we already banned a few things that make the game less competitive because we didn’t like them, why in the name of everything that is Kid Icarus can we NOT do the same to Metaknight? Because they are “random?” Can you not overcome the random 2% health bonus food would give you if it was on with playing more skillfully, an argument people say about not banning MK? Yes you could . But guess what , we still ban food because that’s not the competitive fighter we want, and I say the type of competitive fighter that Brawl is with MK in it is not the one we want either, much the same scenario.

People will probably make the point that “it’s a competitive fighter, you can’t expect all characters to compete” well, the Smash Community has already distanced itself from other fighters by banning items like food and fans. We have banned things that are NOT broken for the sake of a better competitive and a more enjoyable tournament scene. And I’m saying if we ban Metaknight, it really isn’t something we haven’t done before. That's all I'm saying. People act as if Meta has to be completely broken and ruin the game to unplayable to ban him. I say that idea is inconsistent to what we've banned as a community so far.

[...]
Banning a character is a completely different beast from banning stages or items or game modes, so I don't agree with your argument that there is precedent. Items in particular I'd disagree with, in fact I think you can have a perfectly competitive scene and well-developed metagame for Brawl with items, provided it's the "right" set of items. The reason items are banned is one, because of randomness, and two, that they require a different skillset to win with, not because they imbalance the game. This is the same reason we don't play coin matches, which are in fact not really any differently balanced than stock matches. They test different skills, and the prevailing opinion is that these skills are not very deep in comparison.

Well then, what if the community decides that we dont' want to test the skillset of playing against Metaknight because of his overly rounded characters as a character? Maybe the community will decide we don't want to test the skillset of fighting a character with no real weaknesses. If prevailing opinion is that these skills are not very deep in comparison to fight other characters, than a ban would be justified. Just as those items are not broken but test a skillset we don't want to test, perhaps Metaknight is not totally broken, but tests a skilset (fighting a character with no disadantaged matchups is a special skill you don't have to have unless you fight metaknight) we don't want to test and we can therefore ban it as well.

[...]

@ Hyuga , to your first point, I see your point in having an arbitrary line of what are dominant tournament results However, I disagree that they have to be consistent with Melee. So far many brawl rules and standards are changed from melee (3 stocks to 4, for example) showing that the rules and standards to the two games can be applied differently as they are different games. I believe we can have a different criteria to ban a character in brawl than we had in melee. This is due to a number of reasons, one of them being especially what Emerican said. Brawl was programmed much more so than melee to be a party fighter. It's my opinion we have to step in and change the game/rules more liberally than we did in Melee because of this. That's why I feel we should take action and be more easily influenced to do something like a character ban, because the game takes many countermeasures against competition and thus we have to try even harder to break the game into one. So I don't feel the standards in Melee apply to those in Brawl.

Thought it was an interesting viewpoint~

 

[Jim Morrison]

^lol tl;dr

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd just like to point out that MLG_JV voted for the ban.

MLG supports the MK ban.

I noticed that too. Does MLG play any role in the backroom's decisions or is this site still "our's?" I've been wondering that for awhile; do they now own this site or are they merely affliated with us?

 

[GofG]

Who knows. I don't think we've actually been told anything. All we've noticed is that MLG is allowed to put up stickies in various character threads for things everyone already knows, or information that is already in a different sticky.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol wow you're clearly trying to do it for your own biased reasons. If rob ***** MK you would support MK staying, please don't make up such obvious lies like that (which also isn't true)

Why do you post things like this m2k? I like you.
but seriously if that were true, no one would be discussing about banning MK.

 

[salaboB]

it's true. MKs down tilt is his best move vs Snake on the ground, but if it doesn't trip them then it's just mere damage. I've spaced down tilts on Snakes hoping they would trip only for them to get pushed back slightly and F tilt me before I knew what was happening.

btw, even though MK's F tilt has slightly more range than snakes F tilt, should you either mistime it by a frame or trade hits, MK' s F tilt will do 3 to Snake, Snake's F tilt will do 8 to MK, then Snake will get another F tilt on Snake, so that's like ... 27 damage? or something?

so what MK should do is stay in the air and space Fairs and Dairs...

...but then later I learned that Snake can do F tilt really fast, and the 2nd hit of Snake's F Tilt easily outprioritizes and outranges a spaced MK fair (yeah I know it shouldn't but it does), doing 13 damage to MK. However, at least in the air, at anything other than low %s (a 2 hit 18% F tilt can hit MK in the air as Snake without knocking them too far back at really low %s) you are safe from a 2 hit F tilt.

I recalled some frame data about this, so I went looking.

Now, this is based on an earlier claim by adumbrodeus that the second hit of Snake's ftilt is blockable -> punishable, so if that's untrue then this won't mean quite as much, but here's the frames for a Snake who's trying to block MK's dtilt:

Anyways, random dtilt frame data:
hits on frame 3
total frames: 15
shieldlag: 6 (not sure if I got this term right. It's when both characters are "frozen")
shieldstun: 1 (thank goodness for brawl shieldstun lol)
raw advantage: -11

What this means is that you have 11 frames to do whatever while mk is still doing his dtilt. It takes seven frames to drop your shield, which would leave you with 4 frames to close the distance and punish mk...... yeah, that isn't going to happen. Shield grabbing is an option as always if they screw up the spacing. Jumping oos is an option. It takes 4-5 frames to get off the ground, and by the time mk is back in neutral position you'll have been in the air for 6-7 frames. You won't be that high in the air at that point (depends on character) and considering that you're facing off against mk this will probably put you in a bad situation. Rolling away seems like the best thing to do here and is very doable. Though I wonder if mk would be fast enough to punish some of the slower rollers....

4 frames is the speed that Snake's ftilt begins at. I don't believe it reaches quite as far as MK's dtilt, so it's not until the second hit that MK has to worry about -- and a second dtilt should be fast enough to just take on Snake's second hit.

If the Snake is being aggressive enough to be ftilting before you get the dtilt, you should be able to block and punish it more directly -- they're both fast enough that they have to be doing it on prediction, so either they're suffering a hit from you dtilt trapping them against their shield or they're predicting you and you should be able to figure out which is their preference and act accordingly (By dtilting or shield -> punishing).

I don't know for sure, but it really seems like for approaching from the ground an MK who's good at spacing can be using dtilt to stab a few times in a row more often than seems to be the case. Maybe if Snake just soaks the hit he can respond faster than he can from a shield, but that seems like it still would leave MK time to get his own shield up in response to the second hit from an ftilt (Not to mention tripping should lead to a low-altitude stage-off and shot at a gimp, which I'd think would lead to Snake losing a stock before MK if he let it just happen over and over).

 

[Espy Rose]

Why the MK should be banned.

I think it’s time I organized my thoughts and made a blog about this. Its needed. First of all, I’d like to give you some background. I was once firmly against the banning of MK. Even when I was getting owned by him. Since then I’ve learned the matchup and can beat most MKs out there rather handily, it is NOT my hardest matchup. It is not even my second toughest matchup personally because I know it so well. HOWEVER, since I’ve learned the matchup more, it has made me realize that Metaknight SHOULD be banned. I have defeated many skilled metaknights in tourney, so don’t for once say “learn the matchup” because, sorry to say I am probably better against metaknight than you are. So toss that thought aside. Now lets get into the real argument.

Two main points:

Point 1: MK removes the need for secondaries and the elegant system of counterpicks and counterpick stages that competitive Smash thrives on. Metaknight has no disadvantaged matchups. He may be 50-50 with some characters, but he has no real disadvantages. This means that ultimately at the highest competitive level, players will resort to him to win. There is no need to use a secondary.

Point 2: MK reduces the character variety in tournament results to a very large degree. Not only do people resort to using Metaknight because other characters will have a disadvantage somewhere, Metaknight has ridicously advantaged matchups with the vast majority of the cast. He strongly impacts the placement of a variety of characters, in a way that no other character does. Snake and GW don’t **** 15-20 characters. They have the advantage, but they don’t have a massively skewed win the same way that MK does. Much of this is due to the tornado, and how many characters don’t have a practical answer to it, and the shuttle loop, of which gimps many characters who also don’t have a real answer to it. MK drastically reduces character variety.

Conclusion: Due to Reasons 1 and 2, MK makes the competitive aura of Brawl much less competitive, much more stupid, and much less enjoyable, far more than any other character.

Now, you may be saying “so what if MK reduces character variety and is by far the best. That’s not enough for a ban” And what is unique about my pro ban MK argument is that, I say, it is surely enough. If removing MK will make competitive brawl more competitive and tournaments more varied and enjoyable, this is reason enough to ban him. Removing Snake, on the contrast, won’t exactly do this, because he already has counters, so removing him just imbalances things further. He needs to be there to keep Game and Watch in check, just as one example. It wouldn’t make the game a better competitive game to remove him in contrast to MK. This is why you cannot make the same argument I am making about any other characters : the matchups are not what MK has.

But on to the point, we HAVE banned things in the past just because the made the game less competitive, scrub friendly, and less enjoyable. Guess what they were? ITEMS, my friend. Items. My basis for banning Metaknight is the same basis I use to ban items – they are stupid, they ruin the competition of the game, and they make it far less enjoyable as a competitive fighter. They make it so people not as skilled can easily compare to those who are, and so on. I’m not talking about bomb-ombs and such, which could randomly kill you and ruin the game far more than Metaknight. I’m talking about fans. Food. Bumpers. These kind of items are banned, yet they imbalance the game FAR less than metaknight. They ruin the competitive scene FAR less than metaknight. And I say, if we already banned a few things that make the game less competitive because we didn’t like them, why in the name of everything that is Kid Icarus can we NOT do the same to Metaknight? Because they are “random?” Can you not overcome the random 2% health bonus food would give you if it was on with playing more skillfully, an argument people say about not banning MK? Yes you could . But guess what , we still ban food because that’s not the competitive fighter we want, and I say the type of competitive fighter that Brawl is with MK in it is not the one we want either, much the same scenario.

People will probably make the point that “it’s a competitive fighter, you can’t expect all characters to compete” well, the Smash Community has already distanced itself from other fighters by banning items like food and fans. We have banned things that are NOT broken for the sake of a better competitive and a more enjoyable tournament scene. And I’m saying if we ban Metaknight, it really isn’t something we haven’t done before. That's all I'm saying. People act as if Meta has to be completely broken and ruin the game to unplayable to ban him. I say that idea is inconsistent to what we've banned as a community so far.

[...]
Banning a character is a completely different beast from banning stages or items or game modes, so I don't agree with your argument that there is precedent. Items in particular I'd disagree with, in fact I think you can have a perfectly competitive scene and well-developed metagame for Brawl with items, provided it's the "right" set of items. The reason items are banned is one, because of randomness, and two, that they require a different skillset to win with, not because they imbalance the game. This is the same reason we don't play coin matches, which are in fact not really any differently balanced than stock matches. They test different skills, and the prevailing opinion is that these skills are not very deep in comparison.

Well then, what if the community decides that we dont' want to test the skillset of playing against Metaknight because of his overly rounded characters as a character? Maybe the community will decide we don't want to test the skillset of fighting a character with no real weaknesses. If prevailing opinion is that these skills are not very deep in comparison to fight other characters, than a ban would be justified. Just as those items are not broken but test a skillset we don't want to test, perhaps Metaknight is not totally broken, but tests a skilset (fighting a character with no disadantaged matchups is a special skill you don't have to have unless you fight metaknight) we don't want to test and we can therefore ban it as well.

[...]

@ Hyuga , to your first point, I see your point in having an arbitrary line of what are dominant tournament results However, I disagree that they have to be consistent with Melee. So far many brawl rules and standards are changed from melee (3 stocks to 4, for example) showing that the rules and standards to the two games can be applied differently as they are different games. I believe we can have a different criteria to ban a character in brawl than we had in melee. This is due to a number of reasons, one of them being especially what Emerican said. Brawl was programmed much more so than melee to be a party fighter. It's my opinion we have to step in and change the game/rules more liberally than we did in Melee because of this. That's why I feel we should take action and be more easily influenced to do something like a character ban, because the game takes many countermeasures against competition and thus we have to try even harder to break the game into one. So I don't feel the standards in Melee apply to those in Brawl.

Did anyone read this after it was posted?

Read nao.

 

[Snare]

the ultimate irony would be if someone finds a way to hard counter mk with falcon

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Meh, thats not really anything to do with MK. Beating diddy is easy for me with any character, there's a simple strategy that counters him, not a character

howwwwwwwwwwwww?

 

[Jman115]

How many people have actually tried to main toon link, really main him and take on MK? I know I have never struggled against a metaknight. Its either a close loss or pretty decisive win. He may not always win, but I think TL could pretty consistently beat MK. Unless I just played really bad MK's.

 

[Rh1thmz]

the ultimate irony would be if someone finds a way to hard counter mk with falcon

The way: Give CF his old knee back...and how about his old physics while we're at it?

It would be epic if CF was a hard counter to MK, though...or if anyone was

 

[Skyshroud]

Did anyone read this after it was posted?

Read nao.

No. I stopped reading after point 2, which is just ridiculous. There are answers to several of his attacks, and MK does not **** the cast like many other characters do. Removing MK is not going to increase character variety as much as people would like to believe. There's no point in reading a post based on false information.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No. I stopped reading after point 2, which is just ridiculous. There are answers to several of his attacks, and MK does not **** the cast like many other characters do. [/quoet] Name these characters who have matchups that are as good overall as MK.
Start now.

Removing MK is not going to increase character variety as much as people would like to believe. There's no point in reading a post based on false information.

Unproven information not false.

 

[hotgarbage]

...but then later I learned that Snake can do F tilt really fast, and the 2nd hit of Snake's F Tilt easily outprioritizes and outranges a spaced MK fair (yeah I know it shouldn't but it does), doing 13 damage to MK. However, at least in the air, at anything other than low %s (a 2 hit 18% F tilt can hit MK in the air as Snake without knocking them too far back at really low %s) you are safe from a 2 hit F tilt.

The second hit of his ftilt comes out on frame 16...

 

[ssbbFICTION]

No. I stopped reading after point 2, which is just ridiculous. There are answers to several of his attacks, and MK does not **** the cast like many other characters do. Removing MK is not going to increase character variety as much as people would like to believe. There's no point in reading a post based on false information.

Lol. Edrees vs Skyshroud is like chuck norris kicking a rusted soda can off a cliff, and can claims it never happened.

 

[popsofctown]

@Jman115


I know Santi has, and he's the best Toon Link I've ever heard of, is that enough?

Your friends probably aren't super, uber bad, but they are probably suffering from poor projectile evasion. There's a really steep learning curve before you start perfect shielding, sheilding, and dodging all/nearly all the projectiles sent at you. This is most visible with Toon Link and Pit, but it's present across the board. Remember when everyone thought Tlink and Pit were top tier? That's back when everyone sucked at dodging projectiles. At uber high levels of play, boomerangs pretty much never hit anyone, maybe one arrows per match. Santi uses lots of bombs, because they travel fastest and make openings.

 

[Skyshroud]

Unproven information not false.

Character variety was another point. I should have separated it. However, characters do have an answer to the tornado, the issue is people get out of position and then they can't do anything about it. It's a punishing move. You can deal with it, but if you get yourself in a bad spot you're going to be punished, just like a lot of other attacks.

 

[frdagaa]

Character variety was another point. I should have separated it. However, characters do have an answer to the tornado, the issue is people get out of position and then they can't do anything about it. It's a punishing move. You can deal with it, but if you get yourself in a bad spot you're going to be punished, just like a lot of other attacks.

I don't see how talking about the tornado is relevant to your other point. You were discussing character variety, and suddenly you start off on the tornado. Talk about a non sequitur.

 

[BentoBox]

He addresses most counterpoints later on in the post, fyi. But you don't have to agree with him either way~

 

[ShadowLink84]

Character variety was another point. I should have separated it. However, characters do have an answer to the tornado, the issue is people get out of position and then they can't do anything about it. It's a punishing move. You can deal with it, but if you get yourself in a bad spot you're going to be punished, just like a lot of other attacks.

big deal everyone can answer the tornado. Under given circumstances.
Even if a character breaks the tornado with every single move he has, that does not change anything else about being unable to answer MK's other answers.

 

[Skyshroud]

I don't see how talking about the tornado is relevant to your other point. You were discussing character variety, and suddenly you start off on the tornado. Talk about a non sequitur.

If you actually read, my first post was referring to point 2 in general, which if you actually read that, you would find that Edrees brings up the point that the tornado is unanswerable.

So, in conclusion, reading > stupidity.

EDIT: Shadowlink: You've started to hit the nail on the head now. That is the argument I think Edrees should have used. The tornado itself is not to blame, but the combination between the tornado and the rest of MK's moveset in a good players hands.

 

[salaboB]

The second hit of his ftilt comes out on frame 16...

That means MK should be able to dtilt spam over Snake if spaced properly to not get hit by the first hit of Snake's ftilt.

MK's dtilt hits on frame 3 and lasts 15 frames before IASA so you can hit again on frame 18. Unless Snake completely whiffs the first frame of his ftilt so MK doesn't clank with it (I assume they clank, I haven't tested that specifically) MK's second dtilt should knock Snake out of his ftilt attempt.

 

[BentoBox]

Telling people to read when you yourself haven't read the whole post is a tad bit ironic. He never did say the tornado alone was to blame. He simply said some characters had no practical answers.

 

[Skyshroud]

Ok, I did go back and read the whole thing, and, while it is a compelling argument, I still don't believe that banning MK will increase character variety in the way that is being implied. Simply put, MK himself does not make many characters unviable. The point of Sheik in Melee has been brought up before. Sheik was not the most broken character in the game, but kept the lower tiers down. Meta is the fox of the game, who seems unbeatable at the highest level. However, people like G&W and Dedede will keep the lower tiers down because they just can't deal with them.

As far as the rest of the post that I did not address: it is one of the better arguments I have seen, but I think Edrees needs to develop some parts of it a bit more to make it stronger.

 

[GofG]

Skyshroud, MK beats every character in the low tier harder than any other character does (minus Marth on Lucas and Ness). How could you argue comparing him to anything but Sheik?

Also, if anything, Marth was the best character in Melee for the longest period of time. He is still top of the tier list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I stopped reading his post when he got to the conspiracy theory that most people winning tournaments with Metaknight are only doing so they can get him banned and advance their own characters. I think this is only true in the case of Overswarm (who I think still mains ROB) but believing there's an underground group of professional players wearing top hats with long slender mustaches saying "Nyah, ha ha, let's get Metaknight banned so Marth/Wario/Lucario/Olimar/Pikachu/Geno becomes top/high tier by winning tournaments with a character we all hate" is a tad on the insane side.

I respect the fact that he's amazing at Smash but I'm almost floored by some of the stuff he has said in order to defend Metaknight (despite supposedly being amazing with King Dedede too).

i am pretty sure that hylian among others have admitted to pcking up MK for the express purpose of getting him more tourney wins and getting him banned.

NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM

I <3 money

NOM NOM NOM (that's me eating non-MK characters with my MK cuz I can) NOM NOM



Also, me maining MK is 100% to get him banned. I can win money with him and that's great and all, but I don't need the money. This isn't paying for my bills or anything, it's just fun money that I can live without. I just want to keep playing smash and know that won't continue if MK is around... so I'm doing my best to get MK banned. I'm doing a good job too, cuz MK is flipping the **** out.

lol-to truth combo!!

...
If ROB had a significant advantage against MK we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, now would we?

If anyone did we probably wouldn't be. Even Captain Falcon might be enough.

^this

I noticed that too. Does MLG play any role in the backroom's decisions or is this site still "our's?" I've been wondering that for awhile; do they now own this site or are they merely affliated with us?

they bought the site, im still trying to figure out who got the money from that "purchase"

How many people have actually tried to main toon link, really main him and take on MK? I know I have never struggled against a metaknight. Its either a close loss or pretty decisive win. He may not always win, but I think TL could pretty consistently beat MK. Unless I just played really bad MK's.

that bolded part, yeaaaaa....

Lol. Edrees vs Skyshroud is like chuck norris kicking a rusted soda can off a cliff, and can claims it never happened.

ROFLMAO

@Jman115


I know Santi has, and he's the best Toon Link I've ever heard of, is that enough?

Your friends probably aren't super, uber bad, but they are probably suffering from poor projectile evasion. There's a really steep learning curve before you start perfect shielding, sheilding, and dodging all/nearly all the projectiles sent at you. This is most visible with Toon Link and Pit, but it's present across the board. Remember when everyone thought Tlink and Pit were top tier? That's back when everyone sucked at dodging projectiles. At uber high levels of play, boomerangs pretty much never hit anyone, maybe one arrows per match. Santi uses lots of bombs, because they travel fastest and make openings.

for the record, santi consistently gets beat by dojo.

EDIT: Shadowlink: You've started to hit the nail on the head now. That is the argument I think Edrees should have used. The tornado itself is not to blame, but the combination between the tornado and the rest of MK's moveset in a good players hands.

Telling people to read when you yourself haven't read the whole post is a tad bit ironic. He never did say the tornado alone was to blame. He simply said some characters had no practical answers.

get pwned...

 

[BentoBox]

While he might not make some characters more viable than they already are, I don't see how anyone wouldn't benefit of having one of their worst matchups off the map, which could indeed result in higher placements for said characters, hence the speculated increase in variety.

 

[Skyshroud]

I'm trying to point out that it doesn't make more characters viable in a sense. It just means that the MK players will go to other players, which increases character variety in a different manner.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Perhaps you didn't read the fine print...But now you've motivated me to say something. This has probably been said millions of times but...

...Too many people have been brainwashed into thinking he's unbeatable and therefore are too lazy to learn how to fight him.

The whole Brawl community is filled with angst-driven whiny people who are too lazy to learn things. There are so many underused characters in the roster that may shine but too many stray away from them.
---
It may not be decisive evidence, but I believe it speaks for itself.

The term "brainwashed" is thrown around way too much now-a-days. People who don't see things from your point of view =/= brainwashed. Also, every character has at least one thread dealing with how to handle Metaknight and this board even has one by Mew2King and one thread that specifically talks about countering the Tornado so, despite your beliefs, there are people trying to find an upper hand in this matchup. People have come close a number of times but counters were quickly found by Metaknight players. Basically, it's a vicious cycle...

This made me rofl lmfao.... i have a strategy!?!?!? since wen all i do is let u smash my first stock and then **** your 3 cuz i know enough to counter you by then. i guess thats a strategy o.O

"Yo Leo whats your strategy" - Quoted by Snakee lmfao

You know, for someone who opposes Metaknight getting banned, you should be doing more for your side then basically just saying repeatingly "LAWLZ, I R AWUSUM!"I don't support him getting completely banned either but it would be nice to know specifics of what you did in your matches against Inui. You footstooled his tornados, that's nice, then what? Did you follow up with a dair? How did you keep him away from and how did you counter with Dedede when you were knocked in the air. Granted, these won't be universal against every good Metaknight but it'll allow people to digest what can be done with King Dedede at least.

 

[DanGR]

One of the requirements for voting in this thread should be if you play competitively and go to tourneys, or if you would go to more tourneys if MK were to be banned.

 

[brinboy789]

i am pretty sure that hylian among others have admitted to pcking up MK for the express purpose of getting him more tourney wins and getting him banned

nope. hylian picked up MK because if your a top notch player you should be able to use at least the entire top tier. besides, why not experiment with the best char in the game? and he doesnt want him banned. in MK boards theres a thread started by hylian called "how to not get MK banned". so obviously, hes either neutral ot against the ban

 

[salaboB]

nope. hylian picked up MK because if your a top notch player you should be able to use at least the entire top tier. besides, why not experiment with the best char in the game? and he doesnt want him banned. in MK boards theres a thread started by hylian called "how to not get MK banned". so obviously, hes either neutral ot against the ban

He basically said "Soft ban him if you don't want him hard banned".

Since I agree, does that mean I'm neutral or against the ban?

 

[BentoBox]

I'm trying to point out that it doesn't make more characters viable in a sense. It just means that the MK players will go to other players, which increases character variety in a different manner.

Implying that all the current MK players would rank just as high without MK. We don't know that until we try. There are actually results of mk-less tourneys on these forums but I'm too lazy to look for them atm.

 

[brinboy789]

He basically said "Soft ban him if you don't want him hard banned".

Since I agree, does that mean I'm neutral or against the ban?

he said dont use him in tourneys to avoid him getting banned. AKA soft ban for a period of time, then back to using him. why would a person who supports the ban say that?