Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[swordgard]

You can go from Wifi to become a good player, yeah. But you cannot become a good player by playing Wifi. Maybe mediocre, but not good.

Ally says hi. Frankly, your wrong. Ally never placed in tourney until like last august where he owned kingace. He came from wifi and was already **** back then, playing exclusively wifi with his bro. There you have it. He never played melee with mtl people either.



Oh....and i did the same btw, i became good exclusively or almost playing wifi in brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And this would really matter how? I've literally had sex with with more straight guys than I can count on one hand. I've made out with and generally become gropingly acquainted with literally 100s of straight guys. Incidentally, I've trapped over 10,000 straight guys. I should have my own sitcom or reality show.

I can see it now: "It's a Trap!"

Poor atomsk.
Yuna I demand you go to otakon in 2010. Or I shall be sadedededed.

 

[meepxzero]

lol @ lain getting ***** in losers by m2k.

you do know ic can grab at 0% and take a stock right? Even m2k himself can tell you the game coulda swayed quickly if lain played more patiently.

 

[Yuna]

Ally says hi. Frankly, your wrong. Ally never placed in tourney until like last august where he owned kingace. He came from wifi and was already **** back then, playing exclusively wifi with his bro. There you have it. He never played melee with mtl people either.

Oh....and i did the same btw, i became good exclusively or almost playing wifi in brawl.

Ally went from Wifi only to "good"? And by good, I mean "capable of at least Top 3 at minor tournaments". You said exclusively wifi with his bro. So did he only play on Wifi against only his bro? Or do you mean on Wifi and against his bro?

You can get the basics down through wifi alone. But wifi alone won't help you get the timing and mindgames down. You need some real life practice for that. And, no, you cannot go from never having played anything Competitively ever using Wifi alone and become "good" (substitute "good" for your own assesment of "great", I just have high standards).

 

[swordgard]

Ally went from Wifi only to "good"? And by good, I mean "capable of at least Top 3 at minor tournaments". You said exclusively wifi with his bro. So did he only play on Wifi against only his bro? Or do you mean on Wifi and against his bro?

You can get the basics down through wifi alone. But wifi alone won't help you get the timing and mindgames down. You need some real life practice for that. And, no, you cannot go from never having played anything Competitively ever using Wifi alone and become "good" (substitute "good" for your own assesment of "great", I just have high standards).

This is exactly what he did. He only played his bro(well i guess, i mean, you got a bro you play him lol ), and only wifi. He never went into competitions before, that i can assure you of it(OK, i am exagerating, he won another competition before august, but it was one with 10 people in a mini tourney with wiimotes only and random stuff, nobody near good at these. Ii know cause i went to one of these, it wasnt a competitive tourney).


Oh, and we have the same standards.


He came out of nowhere, beat kingace at the first major East coast canada tourney and got 1st.


Argument fell apart, sorry. Wifi does give you mindgames, you wouldnt know though because you never played much wifi im sure of it. Wifi is also the only reason i placed well at tourneys. Wifi IS competitive.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I have to agree to some extent that some skill is gained on Wifi, however that skill is no where near as good (or important, for that matter) as waht can be learned offline.

Offline > Wifi > CPUs > Training Mode > Thinking about playing the game

Quoted from someone in another thread, and it is utterly true.

 

[L666]

This is exactly what he did. He only played his bro(well i guess, i mean, you got a bro you play him lol ), and only wifi. He never went into competitions before, that i can assure you of it(OK, i am exagerating, he won another competition before august, but it was one with 10 people in a mini tourney with wiimotes only and random stuff, nobody near good at these. Ii know cause i went to one of these, it wasnt a competitive tourney).


Oh, and we have the same standards.


He came out of nowhere, beat kingace at the first major East coast canada tourney and got 1st.


Argument fell apart, sorry. Wifi does give you mindgames, you wouldnt know though because you never played much wifi im sure of it. Wifi is also the only reason i placed well at tourneys. Wifi IS competitive.

Is his brother nearly as good as he is?

 

[Yuna]

This is exactly what he did. He only played his bro(well i guess, i mean, you got a bro you play him lol ), and only wifi. He never went into competitions before, that i can assure you of it(OK, i am exagerating, he won another competition before august, but it was one with 10 people in a mini tourney with wiimotes only and random stuff, nobody near good at these. Ii know cause i went to one of these, it wasnt a competitive tourney).

He came out of nowhere, beat kingace at the first major East coast canada tourney and got 1st.

He came out of nowhere after playing only Wifi and his brother, not playing IRL with anyone else? Also, his brother is still a source of IRL play. I'm not saying you have to go to tournaments. But Wifi alone will not make you good. Unless you only play against really, really good Wifi players through friendcodes to learn some specific things off of them.

Argument fell apart, sorry. Wifi does give you mindgames, you wouldnt know though because you never played much wifi im sure of it. Wifi is also the only reason i placed well at tourneys. Wifi IS competitive.

It gives you some mindgames, but not all or the right ones, be cause Wifi is quite different. Because of the lag, Wifi Brawl is played very differently from live Brawl. Much less aggressive, for instant, so you do not learn how to learn with aggresive players.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is his brother nearly as good as he is?

His brother is HolyNightmare - the best R.O.B. in the world.

 

[Atomsk_92]

sadly I **** HOLY WITH IVYSAUR

 

[swordgard]

He came out of nowhere after playing only Wifi and his brother, not playing IRL with anyone else? Also, his brother is still a source of IRL play. I'm not saying you have to go to tournaments. But Wifi alone will not make you good. Unless you only play against really, really good Wifi players through friendcodes to learn some specific things off of them.


It gives you some mindgames, but not all or the right ones, be cause Wifi is quite different. Because of the lag, Wifi Brawl is played very differently from live Brawl. Much less aggressive, for instant, so you do not learn how to learn with aggresive players.

Gosh, his bros only source of play was also wifi, yes they played together, but they mostly learned stuff from wifi. And you can play agressive on wifi, please, you just never played alot there so you could not understand. Yes wifi is different, but you can learna helluva lot from there to become good.

Dealing with aggressive online players is usually much harder in lag than offline.

 

[salaboB]

Gosh, his bros only source of play was also wifi, yes they played together, but they mostly learned stuff from wifi. And you can play agressive on wifi, please, you just never played alot there so you could not understand. Yes wifi is different, but you can learna helluva lot from there to become good.

One person being capable of learning something is not enough to indicate it's true for most people. Ally had to learn offline timing somewhere - and you said he played his brother. There you go, that's offline play, it teaches offline timing, and it's not pure wifi. Plus it seems likely Ally is simply very, very good at Brawl without practicing a lot -- do you know he wouldn't have done just as well at the tournament after playing his brother and the practice tournament, without needing lots of wifi time too?

There's just too much different between wifi and offline play to really apply the two directly, and Ally is too exceptional a player to say that it was because of the wifi that he got that good. Maybe it was the wifi, but it's also quite possible that he didn't need it.

Dealing with aggressive online players is usually much harder in lag than offline.

So wifi play teaches you lots of bad habits that you'll have to unlearn to do well offline. That argues against it being wifi that helps someone become good without needing to practice offline more.

 

[Yuna]

Gosh, his bros only source of play was also wifi, yes they played together, but they mostly learned stuff from wifi. And you can play agressive on wifi, please, you just never played alot there so you could not understand. Yes wifi is different, but you can learna helluva lot from there to become good.

You can play aggresively on Wifi, but the lag, button input lag, will screw you over and still force you to play differently lest you leave yourself wide open. No, you cannot play how to play "properly" by playing only on Wi-Fi. You can learn the fundamentals and basics and learn how to play Brawl in some way, but if you play only Wi-Fi and then go up against non-Wifi players of a high level, you will get *****.

Because Wi-Fi play is much different from non-Wi-Fi play. You learn to play a different game. If someone catches on, they'll use strategies and techniques you will have no way of having learned to handle through Wi-Fi alone.

 

[|RK|]

While I'm still practicing, Wi-Fi did teach me to assess my surroundings better and consider the opponent's pattern to some degree. The amount of button lag I get is significantly less than playing someone in Canada, and eventually I forget it. Wi-Fi teaches prediction for some people, if they have bad button lag. Me, I can't string as well online, but nonetheless, don't discredit Wi-Fi completely.

 

[swordgard]

You can play aggresively on Wifi, but the lag, button input lag, will screw you over and still force you to play differently lest you leave yourself wide open. No, you cannot play how to play "properly" by playing only on Wi-Fi. You can learn the fundamentals and basics and learn how to play Brawl in some way, but if you play only Wi-Fi and then go up against non-Wifi players of a high level, you will get *****.

Because Wi-Fi play is much different from non-Wi-Fi play. You learn to play a different game. If someone catches on, they'll use strategies and techniques you will have no way of having learned to handle through Wi-Fi alone.

As i said, you obviously dont know what your talking about here because you do NOT play wifi high level. Which was the case of ally and holy. Im sorry, i brought a counterexample, ally only played his bro, that does not make up for the fact that overall he had no offline experience. 99% of it was online. Adress the counterexample then il say that your argument stands.

 

[Anth0ny]

Says the guy, who voted yes =P

lol it's all Whobo's fault! I was in a bad mood, and that tourney just made me think "**** it, he's way too good, he needs to go! It looks like he's gonna keep dominating tournaments..."

So I hit yes. But as the days went on, I started thinking normally again, and I regretted my vote. I should have voted "I don't know". Now, considering Apex, I'm absolutely a no. I mean, if M2K of all people could be beaten by ICs and Snake, a character matchup that he said he knows the most, then MK is not broken enough for a ban. End of discussion.

As for wifi, I'm not even going to argue. Go talk to Ally, Anti and ADHD and come back and tell me that I lose all credibility when I say that wifi is a good way to practice.

 

[Palpi]

lol it's all Whobo's fault! I was in a bad mood, and that tourney just made me think "**** it, he's way too good, he needs to go! It looks like he's gonna keep dominating tournaments..."

So I hit yes. But as the days went on, I started thinking normally again, and I regretted my vote. I should have voted "I don't know". Now, considering Apex, I'm absolutely a no. I mean, if M2K of all people could be beaten by ICs and Snake, a character matchup that he said he knows the most, then MK is not broken enough for a ban. End of discussion.

As for wifi, I'm not even going to argue. Go talk to Ally, Anti and ADHD and come back and tell me that I lose all credibility when I say that wifi is a good way to practice.

Use my signature + link for epicly correct posts anthony. We must spread the word. This video inspires me to defeat Metaknights because I am not a coward. I am better than that.

Wifi MK ditos with Seph (crizthakid SHOUTOUT) made my mk ditto one of my better match ups. If only I wasn't ******** in Apex pools I could've held the many leads I had in those dittos, but w/e. Wifi sucks for certain characters (MARTH) but its alright i suppose.

 

[salaboB]

As for wifi, I'm not even going to argue. Go talk to Ally, Anti and ADHD and come back and tell me that I lose all credibility when I say that wifi is a good way to practice.

How much does playing wifi specifically help you with beating MK?

That is the key, btw. I'm not even getting into if wifi can make you better, it was a response to "To beat MK practice wifi." Does wifi even help with that particular matchup a lot? iirc, MK is one of the characters who changes most significantly offline to online, which is why it doesn't seem particularily valuable to practice against him online if your goal is offline tournies.

Edit: Truthfully, you failed to prove your point when you said "Just practice harder to beat MK" as a reason he shouldn't be banned. But I've grown tired of pointing out how that doesn't change things, so I pointed out the other. Now, if I am incorrect and wifi really does help you learn to beat MK specifically (Not just become a better player) then I'll accept that, and still have a reason to not listen to your anti-ban arguments.

 

[Anth0ny]

How much offline did he play by the time he did this at the tournament?

How much does playing wifi specifically help you with beating MK?

That last one is the key, btw. I'm not even getting into if wifi can make you better, it was a response to "To beat MK practice wifi." Does wifi even help with that particular matchup a lot? iirc, MK is one of the characters who changes most significantly offline to online, which is why it doesn't seem particularily valuable to practice against him online if your goal is offline tournies.

Ally attended his first IRL tournament late last year I believe. He utterly destroyed Canada's top competition, including King Ace (the best MK in Canada, placed 5th at Critical Hit 4, beat Azen in pools at COT4), JL and Ambrose. These were players attending every tournament since Brawl's launch, and out of nowhere, Ally, some "wifi scrub", takes a royal dump on them.

His third IRL tournament attracted the likes of Lain and NOJ from Michigan. He beat them too. All of this from huge amounts of wifi practice, playing with his brother, and 3 irl tourneys.

How much does playing wifi specifically help you with beating MK? Of course, that varies depending on your skill. But I can guarantee that if I practiced with judge or another good MK over wifi on a consistant basis, I would learn the matchup very well.

It is obvious that wifi skill transfers to offline play. Judge, an MK from Michigan, came from out of nowhere, playing only Wifi. He is now the best MK in MI and one of the top MKs in the country. Ally needs no introduction. Same with ADHD and Anti. These are players who all practiced hard on wifi, and their irl tournament records show it.

The only matchup Anti couldn't really practice over wifi was the elusive "mom" matchup. It screwed him at COT4, but surprisingly, Apex, which took place on Mother's Day, was no problem for him! Moms are just wayyyyyyy too good

 

[salaboB]

Ally attended his first IRL tournament late last year I believe. He utterly destroyed Canada's top competition, including King Ace (the best MK in Canada, placed 5th at Critical Hit 4, beat Azen in pools at COT4), JL and Ambrose. These were players attending every tournament since Brawl's launch, and out of nowhere, Ally, some "wifi scrub", takes a royal dump on them.

His third IRL tournament attracted the likes of Lain and NOJ from Michigan. He beat them too. All of this from huge amounts of wifi practice, playing with his brother, and 3 irl tourneys.

How much does playing wifi specifically help you with beating MK? Of course, that varies depending on your skill. But I can guarantee that if I practiced with judge or another good MK over wifi on a consistant basis, I would learn the matchup very well.

It is obvious that wifi skill transfers to offline play. Judge, an MK from Michigan, came from out of nowhere, playing only Wifi. He is now the best MK in MI and one of the top MKs in the country. Ally needs no introduction. Same with ADHD and Anti. These are players who all practiced hard on wifi, and their irl tournament records show it.

The only matchup Anti couldn't really practice over wifi was the elusive "mom" matchup. It screwed him at COT4, but surprisingly, Apex, which took place on Mother's Day, was no problem for him! Moms are just wayyyyyyy too good

Practicing wifi to beat MK != Practicing wifi to get better.

Assume you're at the peak of your skill (People do reach peaks where they simply don't get much better without extreme measures) but need to learn the MK matchup. How much will you learn specifically about the MK matchup from practicing wifi? You'll learn plenty about wifi MK habits, can that be applied usefully to offline play?

 

[swordgard]

Practicing wifi to beat MK != Practicing wifi to get better.

Assume you're at the peak of your skill (People do reach peaks where they simply don't get much better without extreme measures) but need to learn the MK matchup. How much will you learn specifically about the MK matchup from practicing wifi? You'll learn plenty about wifi MK habits, can that be applied usefully to offline play?

If you play judged, who learned from online, then im pretty sure you can learn from his online MK and do the same.

 

[Yuna]

As i said, you obviously dont know what your talking about here because you do NOT play wifi high level. Which was the case of ally and holy. Im sorry, i brought a counterexample, ally only played his bro, that does not make up for the fact that overall he had no offline experience. 99% of it was online. Adress the counterexample then il say that your argument stands.

Never mind the fact that "Wi-Fi alone" also precludes any kind of online practice, including Training Mode, what is your counter-example? Ally?

Also, an exception is not a rule. The point still stands, using Wi-Fi and only Wi-Fi (no watching matches online, no reading about strategies on forums, no training mode) will not be enough to turn you into a good player.

 

[salaboB]

If you play judged, who learned from online, then im pretty sure you can learn from his online MK and do the same.

In other words you have no idea if playing against an MK online will teach you anything useful about how to play against an MK offline. All you have is one extremely talented player that you guess might prove what you want.

That's not nearly enough.

 

[L666]

How much does playing wifi specifically help you with beating MK?

That is the key, btw. I'm not even getting into if wifi can make you better, it was a response to "To beat MK practice wifi." Does wifi even help with that particular matchup a lot? iirc, MK is one of the characters who changes most significantly offline to online, which is why it doesn't seem particularily valuable to practice against him online if your goal is offline tournies.

Edit: Truthfully, you failed to prove your point when you said "Just practice harder to beat MK" as a reason he shouldn't be banned. But I've grown tired of pointing out how that doesn't change things, so I pointed out the other. Now, if I am incorrect and wifi really does help you learn to beat MK specifically (Not just become a better player) then I'll accept that, and still have a reason to not listen to your anti-ban arguments.

Specifically, what is the difference between offline and online with MK?

 

[aeghrur]

6 frames of lag.

 

[L666]

6 frames of lag.

Is that supposed to be significant?

 

[swordgard]

You know what, were getting terribly off topic here guys. I believe that you cannot understand Yuna simply because you never played competitivly online, but I think that we should just move onto the metaknight ban topic more.

 

[Sosuke]

MK's Dsmash has less lag then that.

 

[salaboB]

You know what, were getting terribly off topic here guys.

There's not much topic left.

MK is, quite simply, "not broken enough to be banned" if being "broken" is the requirement.

He's also not "fair" to allow if the goal is to create an even playing field where you always have at least two ways to do anything.

Most people couldn't care less about the second, so since the first is true will never be convinced MK needs banning.

A final option, but one that will only pass if time changes things (So there's nothing to discuss about it currently), is that for some reason people would care if MK were played too much -- why, I don't quite understand, as he'd still not be "broken enough to be banned" even if 90% of tournament competitors played as him, but apparently that would make many willing to support a ban of MK (Since a big tournament with a relatively low % of MKs has been enough to convince people he doesn't need a ban). If the problem isn't big and obvious why fix it, I guess.

Edit: There are of course the "BAN MK I CAN'T BEAT HIM" and the "DON'T BAN MK LEARN TO PLAY NOOB" people on both sides who don't care about any form of logic either for or against, but trying to convince them is pretty pointless. I suspect they make up the bulk of the people who pay attention to sheer % MK usage, though.

 

[aeghrur]

Is that supposed to be significant?

Idk, you tell me.
I just remember that the least amount of lag from Wi-Fi is 6 frames.

 

[SuSa]

Idk, you tell me.
I just remember that the least amount of lag from Wi-Fi is 6 frames.

6 frames takes longer them some moves' hitboxes.

So I'd say thats pretty significant. Someone did a test or something with Wolf's Fsmash and the latest you can shield in frames both offline and online.

Online couldn't react fast enough by starting to shield "in sight". You'd need to predict the Fsmash and shield before it happened.

That's a pretty big change.

 

[Anth0ny]

6 frames takes longer them some moves' hitboxes.

So I'd say thats pretty significant. Someone did a test or something with Wolf's Fsmash and the latest you can shield in frames both offline and online.

Online couldn't react fast enough by starting to shield "in sight". You'd need to predict the Fsmash and shield before it happened.

That's a pretty big change.

No doubt.

All I'm saying is that playing MKs on wifi will help your performance against MKs irl. Is the experience slightly different on Wifi than it is irl? Yes. Ultimately, however, I feel that the practice you get on wifi is for your own good.

Stuff like "I should use this move here" and "he's going to use this move, so I can counter with this" can all be learned very well on wifi. The lag is not much of a factor. In other words, the mindgames you develop online can be translated to irl play quite easily.

The problem is the difference in reaction time. For me, it's not a problem because I play more offline than online, so I can easily go between the two without problems. If you think you're going to mess up power sheilding MK's downsmash just because you've been playing MKs too much on wifi...you just need to learn how to adjust properly. It took me like 4 hours of solid playing. Since then, the 6 frame difference has never been a problem.

But yeah, I think we're getting a little off topic here

 

[SuSa]

No doubt.

All I'm saying is that playing MKs on wifi will help your performance against MKs irl. Is the experience slightly different on Wifi than it is irl? Yes. Ultimately, however, I feel that the practice you get on wifi is for your own good.

Stuff like "I should use this move here" and "he's going to use this move, so I can counter with this" can all be learned very well on wifi. The lag is not much of a factor. In other words, the mindgames you develop online can be translated to irl play quite easily.

The problem is the difference in reaction time. For me, it's not a problem because I play more offline than online, so I can easily go between the two without problems. If you think you're going to mess up power sheilding MK's downsmash just because you've been playing MKs too much on wifi...you just need to learn how to adjust properly. It took me like 4 hours of solid playing. Since then, the 6 frame difference has never been a problem.

But yeah, I think we're getting a little off topic here

I only play Online except for at tournaments. I don't do great, but generally 10-20th place in tourneys of 40-50+ people.

I get really nervous on my 3rd or 4th fight. Need to go to more tourneys, man I need my liscence.

I stick to my point of characters closing in towards MK (finally)

 

[Plairnkk]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671 RUH ROH, AIR PLANKING?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671 RUH ROH, AIR PLANKING?

imma try it sometime.

 

[brinboy789]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671 RUH ROH, AIR PLANKING?

haha, too gay

 

[Anth0ny]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671 RUH ROH, AIR PLANKING?

looooooool nevermind, ban this ****er

 

[Remzi]

LMFAO @ planks vid

the commentary was too good

 

[cutter]

I'm wondering why the hell Plank's thread was locked like immediately without ANY mod saying who it was or even why lol.

 

[Hype]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671 RUH ROH, AIR PLANKING?

rofl. Is there a time in the air statistic. I expect some thread about banning being in the air for 7+ minutes.