Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Red Arremer]

Those are more like 95:5 or worse if the D3 has ANY clue what he is doing >_>

Nope. Even with the Infinites, these matchups are not considered that bad. 100:0 matchups are nowhere existant in any fighting games, by the way... actually I think there is one in one of the Street Fighter games (was it Zangief vs. E. Honda in SF2? I'm not sure...).

100:0 or even 95:5 means: He touches you, you're dead. Which is not quite the case.

 

[salaboB]

Nope. Even with the Infinites, these matchups are not considered that bad. 100:0 matchups are nowhere existant in any fighting games, by the way... actually I think there is one in one of the Street Fighter games (was it Zangief vs. E. Honda in SF2? I'm not sure...).

100:0 or even 95:5 means: He touches you, you're dead. Which is not quite the case.

It does?

I thought 100:0 simply meant at top levels of play nothing short of a seizure would stop one from beating the other.

 

[Maniclysane]

Well, gee, that makes Meta Knight a hard matchup for Olimar. 5 points +/- is an acceptable misjudging, especially since I don't know extremely much about the Meta Knight vs. Olimar. It's still nowhere near as bad as 80-20, that's more like the matchup Dedede has on Bowser or Donkey Kong.

If you don't much about the MK vs. Olimar matchup, don't pass your opinion on it.

Nope. Even with the Infinites, these matchups are not considered that bad. 100:0 matchups are nowhere existant in any fighting games, by the way... actually I think there is one in one of the Street Fighter games (was it Zangief vs. E. Honda in SF2? I'm not sure...).

100:0 or even 95:5 means: He touches you, you're dead. Which is not quite the case.

It is the case. If he grabs you, you're dead. Matchups are at the highest levels of play. There is no chance a DK could beat a D3, unless the D3 has no fingers.

 

[adumbrodeus]

most of those are even, a few slightly in snake's favor even. ROB is about even and DDD is definitely no worse than 45:55, some people even consider it to be even. the fact that you think either could be worse than 60:40 to me says that you don't really know snake's matchups...



I'd agree that he's top 3 without MK, but snake is just better IMO

...

What are you, Inui?


Snake is a good character, but he has definite disadvantages, with the match-up set-up you're suggesting, he should be doing about as good as MK in tournament results, possibly better because Snake wins against MK until you hit a very high skill level, so most local tournaments should have Snake winning.

ice climbers are gonna replace fox in brawl. Learning ice climbers requires almost near perfection to be really good, but if you dont mess up cging they are easily top 3 if you include metaknight. Even match up against mk and gets countered by snake. You people who think marth is good dont realize how awful he is.

Seriously?

ICs have crap grab range and the set-ups aren't viable enough to make up for it.

A lot of characters that IC mains somehow manage to CG never should be grabbed, period. That includes, MK, Marth, Snake. They all have too good spacing games.

 

[thumbswayup]

Marth ***** Diddy if it means anything. That's his second worst matchup behind Luigi. I think Marth is definitely good in this game.

 

[Red Arremer]

It does?

I thought 100:0 simply meant at top levels of play nothing short of a seizure would stop one from beating the other.

Okay. I want you to do the following:
Go into matchup charts of other games and find me all 100:0 matchups.

A 100:0 (and pretty much anything above 80:20 really) means: Once the enemy has his hands on you, you won'T be able to do anything else. You're dead. And everything above 90:10 pretty much means that you have no chance to win at all. Not even the slightest chance. That's what a 100:0 means - if these two characters play each other, the character with the disadvantage has no chance in winning. The advantaged character beats out the disadvantaged character in every regard, and the disadvantaged character has no ability to inflict damage on the other character.

If you don't much about the MK vs. Olimar matchup, don't pass your opinion on it.

Well apparently I wasn't too far away, though, with the knowledge I have of these two characters. I just didn't know that Meta Knight was outprioritizing Olimar that badly. Now that you've cleared it up, I understand it and take it into account. That's what talking and correcting is for. So thanks for correcting my misinformation, I really appreciate it.

 

[salaboB]

Okay. I want you to do the following:
Go into matchup charts of other games and find me all 100:0 matchups.

A 100:0 (and pretty much anything above 80:20 really) means: Once the enemy has his hands on you, you won'T be able to do anything else. You're dead. And everything above 90:10 pretty much means that you have no chance to win at all. Not even the slightest chance. That's what a 100:0 means - if these two characters play each other, the character with the disadvantage has no chance in winning. The advantaged character beats out the disadvantaged character in every regard, and the disadvantaged character has no ability to inflict damage on the other character.

If other games don't have matchups like that (Since you're busily saying they don't have any 100:0's except one rare one you know of), how do you expect me to find a 100:0 for you in them?

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

...

What are you, Inui?


Snake is a good character, but he has definite disadvantages, with the match-up set-up you're suggesting, he should be doing about as good as MK in tournament results, possibly better because Snake wins against MK until you hit a very high skill level, so most local tournaments should have Snake winning.

There are very few really GOOD snake players. We have candy,ally,razer,afro,dsf. Other then that i can't think of any notable snake players(i may have forgot some players)

Seriously what character can you say has a DEFINATE advantage on snake? Don't say dedede because that match-up is more close to even then anything.

 

[Maniclysane]

Well apparently I wasn't too far away, though, with the knowledge I have of these two characters. I just didn't know that Meta Knight was outprioritizing Olimar that badly. Now that you've cleared it up, I understand it and take it into account. That's what talking and correcting is for. So thanks for correcting my misinformation, I really appreciate it.

No problem. I'm glad that we both agree.

 

[salaboB]

There are very few really GOOD snake players. We have candy,ally,razer,afro,dsf. Other then that i can't think of any notable snake players(i may have forgot some players)

Seriously what character can you say has a DEFINATE advantage on snake? Don't say dedede because that match-up is more close to even then anything.

...and you say pro-ban doesn't listen to a word anyone says.

Pot, meet kettle.

Btw, I'm not saying anti-ban doesn't listen. I'm saying you don't.

 

[Red Arremer]

If other games don't have matchups like that (Since you're busily saying they don't have any 100:0's except one rare one you know of), how do you expect me to find a 100:0 for you in them?

I dunno? You tell me, Mr. I-know-everything-better-than-you.

 

[salaboB]

I dunno? You tell me, Mr. I-know-everything-better-than-you.

I was having a discussion. You responded by trolling, and I didn't take the bait.

Why should a 100:0 be anything else but "You will never, ever beat this character in tournament"?

Edit: I'll even give you a hint, because I was just thinking about it...there are reasons.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

adumbrodeus, you theorycraft too much. Marth is very unlikely to beat good patient ICs imo. His spacing is too good? Mistakes happen even on top level, no matter what you say. That's the whole reason why ICs are so successful. Of coure ROB, Marth and MK **** them on the paper because they'll never ever get grabbed supposedly but in actuallity that never happens. The only character that truly ***** the ICs in actuallity is Snake because he has grenades and his throws **** them pretty badly... and snake is prolly the hardest character to grab.
I'm not sure about the ICs...in a tourney set I'd simply try to hit them once and then run the clock. I mean I know it's gay but come on it's the ICs lol...idk how good that works with or without planking though but I'm sure Wario, Jiggs, Wolf and other characters that are very fast in the air could do it.

Marth has no room for error at all unlike MK or Snake (especially Snake) in many cases Marth gets ***** a lot harder for making mistakes. Marth might be overall good and balanced but there's nothing really broken about him, which is what you need...to be S tier

Make a mistake against Wario ... fart/fsmash
Make a mistake against Snake ... C4/ftilt/fsmash
Make a mistake against MK ... gimp
Make a mistake against Diddy ... banana **** ****

And don't tell me BS like "mistakes shouldn't happen". They do happen so it doesn't matter if Marth is really good in theory. In actuality he isn't that good (although still A tier imo) ... when human error and stuff like that kicks in Marth always is on the worse end. No theorycraft and sugar-coated arguments can make up for the fact that Marth has average properties overall and nothing outstanding about him.
Wario, Diddy and Snake will always be better characters than him for that reason alone and Snake/wario have a lot better match-up's than Marth.

Snake's worst match-up is a 55/45 on a bad stage (D3 on FD) but Snake can counter D3 on Battlefield and maybe Brinstar ... Olimar gets ***** by good Snakes...Olimar beating Snake is a myth idk who came up with that. Ledgehog + grenade on the ledge **** Olimars recovery...Olimars tech roll is so pathetic Snake can easily chase 50% off of him and that's half of Olis stock (if he doesn't get gimped first lol)...also if Olimar throws a pikmin at Snake he can just mortar slide (dash attack kills the pikmin usmash hits oli) for a guaranteed approach.
Snake also beats Falco...just duck under the lasers and blow yourself up to ~30% and you can **** him...Falco needs 150% to kill Snake with usmash...Snake needs 100% to kill Falco with an utilt. Snake deals a lot more damage too and has a lot more good stages...so yeah Snake beats both Falco and Olimar
And wtf @ ROB beating Snake...that never happened and is pretty much a meme lmfao.

So yeah even without MK Marth is still not the best .... maybe top3 or top5 caz MK ***** him so badly but he still has a really hard time vs D3 and good Snakes...

Also MK shouldn't be banned

 

[Red Arremer]

I was having a discussion. You responded by trolling, and I didn't take the bait.

Why should a 100:0 be anything else but "You will never, ever beat this character in tournament"?

Edit: I'll even give you a hint, because I was just thinking about it...there are reasons.

And I said "You will never, ever beat this character".

On a sidenote, should you seem to have missed it... it appears Bowser is a Meta Knight counter now...

 

[meepxzero]

...

What are you, Inui?


Snake is a good character, but he has definite disadvantages, with the match-up set-up you're suggesting, he should be doing about as good as MK in tournament results, possibly better because Snake wins against MK until you hit a very high skill level, so most local tournaments should have Snake winning.




Seriously?

ICs have crap grab range and the set-ups aren't viable enough to make up for it.

A lot of characters that IC mains somehow manage to CG never should be grabbed, period. That includes, MK, Marth, Snake. They all have too good spacing games.

umm even without grabs they do a lot of damage (uairs doing 22% dmg? thats like snakes ftilt). Did you not see lain take m2k to 80% to lains 0% the first game b4 he landed a grab (granted nana was probably at 80%)? Theres always human error in video games one grab is enough to turn the tide in any high level brawl game. Other than snake all match ups are are even or **** for ic.

 

[|RK|]

Who wait what? Bowser? I must see this (although if true this isn't THAT surprising due to the lack of Bowser mains, also possibly responsible for his tier list placing...).

 

[Nic64]

...

What are you, Inui?


Snake is a good character, but he has definite disadvantages, with the match-up set-up you're suggesting, he should be doing about as good as MK in tournament results, possibly better because Snake wins against MK until you hit a very high skill level, so most local tournaments should have Snake winning.

nah, inui thinks snake has no disadvantages and more potential than MK lol, I think he's 45:55 against MK, Wario, DDD, and I think Pikachu is probably a little worse than 50:50. MK's worst matchup is arguably 50:50, but could be 55:45, obviously MK is better and I would never argue that. I just said Snake > Marth

 

[salaboB]

And I said "You will never, ever beat this character".

I'm confused. You sound like you're fine with my definition of 100:0 but you were arguing with it just a moment ago.

On a sidenote, should you seem to have missed it... it appears Bowser is a Meta Knight counter now...

What, again? I'll believe it when it's proven, just like last time

Snake's worst match-up is a 55/45 on a bad stage (D3 on FD) but Snake can counter D3 on Battlefield and maybe Brinstar ... Olimar gets ***** by good Snakes...Olimar beating Snake is a myth idk who came up with that. Ledgehog + grenade on the ledge **** Olimars recovery...Olimars tech roll is so pathetic Snake can easily chase 50% off of him and that's half of Olis stock (if he doesn't get gimped first lol)...also if Olimar throws a pikmin at Snake he can just mortar slide (dash attack kills the pikmin usmash hits oli) for a guaranteed approach.

Rob says hi.

 

[Red Arremer]

Who wait what? Bowser? I must see this (although if true this isn't THAT surprising due to the lack of Bowser mains, also possibly responsible for his tier list placing...).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233550

Infinites on Meta Knight, fresh infinites on Meta Knight!

I know, it's still "in development", but if this is completely true, another argument of the Pro-Ban side has been debunked. There still are characters who are heavily underplayed and Bowser is one of them... Their metagame is still young.

 

[Chileno4Live]

Bowser is better than people give him credit for, really. Now that M2K told this whole thread that he wasn't sandbagging, i'm curious on what the pro-ban side has to say now.

 

[salaboB]

Bowser is better than people give him credit for, really. Now that M2K told this whole thread that he wasn't sandbagging, i'm curious on what the pro-ban side has to say now.

I never said he was sandbagging, so I'll continue to say what I've been saying.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233550

Infinites on Meta Knight, fresh infinites on Meta Knight!

I know, it's still "in development", but if this is completely true, another argument of the Pro-Ban side has been debunked. There still are characters who are heavily underplayed and Bowser is one of them... Their metagame is still young.

It looks extremely hard to do, and extremely situational to succeed at reliably enough to win matches -- and that's if you can get the grab in the first place. I don't think it will turn out to be an MK counter, but good luck to the Bowsers (I've always liked Bowser, it makes me sad how he keeps ending up in Smash games)

 

[|RK|]

I hope that it works. Shame. I'd say that RLSing would help, but Bowser's RLS sucks hard.

 

[Red Arremer]

It's of course nothing that utterly destroys Meta Knight, but just like the Ice Climber's Infinites - they have to get a grab after all, too -, and with practice, you can pull it off.

It doesn't make Bowser a hard counter, but at least skews it from even-ish into Bowser's favour.

 

[P. O. F.]

Why are we talking about Bowser, IC's and Marth now? Off topic.

 

[|RK|]

You know exactly why. Stop being stupid.

Chances are that this will **** your argument. (Not like everything else doesn't already, but...)

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

...and you say pro-ban doesn't listen to a word anyone says.

Pot, meet kettle.

Btw, I'm not saying anti-ban doesn't listen. I'm saying you don't.

How am i not listening? Snake has no TRUE counter's. Rob goes even dedede is 55-45 falco and olimar lose also.


Falco,olimar,dedede countering snake was months ago.

 

[salaboB]

Why are we talking about Bowser, IC's and Marth now? Off topic.

Bowser is pretty on topic, as he may be a new threat to MK's dominance. It looks a bit shakey to me as anything other than a casual-game shocker, but maybe it will prove more practical than it seems at first glance.

Marth and IC are rather off topic, but that's what MK ban threads do I'm sure someone will come say something about banning him again and people will get going again about banning him (Both for and against).

How am i not listening? Snake has no TRUE counter's. Rob goes even dedede is 55-45 falco and olimar lose also.


Falco,olimar,dedede countering snake was months ago.

You better take that up with the Snake AND Rob boards, both say 60:40 Rob. And you're not listening because someone pointed out matchups and you simply ignored him and repeated what you said before, which doesn't disprove anything - we already knew you felt that way. If you want to actually look like you're paying attention you need to add new details specifically addressing the point for why the person you're disagreeing with is incorrect.

You know exactly why. Stop being stupid.

Chances are that this will **** your argument. (Not like everything else doesn't already, but...)

Grasping at straws, seriously. Anti-ban needs to quit saying pro-ban has just been destroyed until you actually have something that works, you just look silly if it ends up not happening (And I suspect this Bowser one won't, from the past times that someone's found a "counter" for MK. Like DK, Yoshi, and Bowser previously all showed up as...).

 

[Tarmogoyf]

People screw up.

Also, mindgaming in a grab is also pretty viable. Spacing tools don't do a thing against something you don't expect. It's why ICs are so horrible on paper, because on paper, no one gets grabbed. Doesn't actually work like that in practice though.

 

[|RK|]

ICs have crap grab range and the set-ups aren't viable enough to make up for it.

A lot of characters that IC mains somehow manage to CG never should be grabbed, period. That includes, MK, Marth, Snake. They all have too good spacing games.

People screw up.

Also, mindgaming in a grab is also pretty viable. Spacing tools don't do a thing against something you don't expect. It's why ICs are so horrible on paper, because on paper, no one gets grabbed. Doesn't actually work like that in practice though.

Yeah, on paper we treat everyone as if they are perfection, when the character potential can be totally flipped, and we don't even factor in human error.

 

[Red Arremer]

Grasping at straws, seriously. Anti-ban needs to quit saying pro-ban has just been destroyed until you actually have something that works, you just look silly if it ends up not happening (And I suspect this Bowser one won't, from the past times that someone's found a "counter" for MK. Like DK, Yoshi, and Bowser previously all showed up as...).

Bowser never has been said to be a counter. Bowser always was even-ish with Meta Knight.
However, with this, Bowser definitely is able to skew the matchup into his favour!

I'm currently writing up a thread about Bowser vs. Meta Knight. So yea.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

You better take that up with the Snake AND Rob boards, both say 60:40 Rob. And you're not listening because someone pointed out matchups and you simply ignored him and repeated what you said before, which doesn't disprove anything - we already knew you felt that way. If you want to actually look like you're paying attention you need to add new details specifically addressing the point for why the person you're disagreeing with is incorrect.

The snake board's have been saying the match is even now. and that they need to redo the match-up chart.

And people in this thread have also said rob snake is 55-45 at worst.

 

[salaboB]

Bowser never has been said to be a counter. Bowser always was even-ish with Meta Knight.
However, with this, Bowser definitely is able to skew the matchup into his favour!

Your memory is short, during the MK ban thread 2 there was a HUGE furor about Bowser's grab release cg against MK and how it would make him a counter.

It never really materialized beyond "Oh hey that's neat".

The snake board's have been saying the match is even now. and that they need to redo the match-up chart.

And people in this thread have also said rob snake is 55-45 at worst.

The best I found was 45:55 Snake on tight stages like Battlefield, and up to 60:40 Rob on Rob-favoring stages. This contradicts your claims of 55:45 on an anti-Snake stage being his worst. Do you have any proof that the community accepts 55:45 Rob is the worst Snake faces?

 

[|RK|]

Come now salaboB do I look that ignorant to you? I said chances are. I also said earlier that I hope this works. I'm not blinded enough to use unconfirmed things as evidence to any argument.

 

[salaboB]

Come now salaboB do I look that ignorant to you? I said chances are. I also said earlier that I hope this works. I'm not blinded enough to use unconfirmed things as evidence to any argument.

Chances are this Bowser one will flop the way the Yoshi, Bowser, ...man there were a couple other "counters" that showed up during that last thread, I forget who they were... all the others did as well.

The less likely chance is that it will be a counter for MK. The far more likely chance is it will prove too difficult to pull off in competitive play and Bowser will still be disadvantaged against him.

Additionally, even if it works and Bowser becomes a counter, if he's not a strong enough counter it won't significantly impact my point due to it being Bowser and due to the rest of MK's matchups still remaining strong for MK. So your claims that the pro-ban side will be destroyed by this are in fact reckless exaggeration, as it won't be destroyed even if the slim chance that this does work occurs (It will be significantly weakened if Bowser becomes a counter, I will give you that ).

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Yeah, on paper we treat everyone as if they are perfection, when the character potential can be totally flipped, and we don't even factor in human error.

Is this sarcasam? Sorry, but it looks weird. (stupid internet and it's inability to convey tone of voice) And I really do think this is true. M2K is undoubetedly the best player, and he plays an "ungrabbable character" yet Lain got him like 5 times. Paper has to assume that the character is played at their maximum potential without any screwups, becuase otherwise it's not really playing the character.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

The best I found was 45:55 Snake on tight stages like Battlefield, and up to 60:40 Rob on Rob-favoring stages. This contradicts your claims of 55:45 on an anti-Snake stage being his worst. Do you have any proof that the community accepts 55:45 Rob is the worst Snake faces?

They were discussing it in the thread about Ally and m2k. and imo i don't see a good reason to why rob has that match-up in his favor.


Also why do you color quote me in the color i don't even use. xD

 

[salaboB]

They were discussing it in the thread about Ally and m2k. and imo i don't see a good reason to why rob has that match-up in his favor.

Also why do you color quote me in the color i don't even use. xD

I see the little COLOR="" and can't resist changing the word in it, since it's not modifying the contents of your post at all -- you're not using it for emphasis or highlighting of any particular part. It's not just you, we've got a lot of people suddenly who insist on coloring their whole posts and I've been modifying theirs too.

Rob has the matchup in his favor because, from all reports, he can out-camp Snake on any map that isn't too closed-in for Snake to control the whole thing at once.

 

[adumbrodeus]

stuff

People screw up.

Also, mindgaming in a grab is also pretty viable. Spacing tools don't do a thing against something you don't expect. It's why ICs are so horrible on paper, because on paper, no one gets grabbed. Doesn't actually work like that in practice though.

umm even without grabs they do a lot of damage (uairs doing 22% dmg? thats like snakes ftilt). Did you not see lain take m2k to 80% to lains 0% the first game b4 he landed a grab (granted nana was probably at 80%)? Theres always human error in video games one grab is enough to turn the tide in any high level brawl game. Other than snake all match ups are are even or **** for ic.

Stuff, yes mistakes happen, I wrote the (much-ignored) mechanism for accounting for how much human error should be accounted for in match-up discussions and to what degree. The thing is, the level of errors you're suggesting (namely ICs getting a grab) are high level mistakes. I mean, how often do you suppose that a player will get mindgamed into a warlock punch? Because in the marth match-up, that's not much larger of a mistake in terms of spacing.


That's the thing, without people actually referencing to any sort of mechanism for dealing with human mistakes, "ics getting a grab while in a position to execute CG" is not much more different then "Ike getting an f-smash", which is not much different from "MK not spacing properly to avoid getting blown up by a snake grenade when he dtilts".

They're obviously different standards, but without any way to judge why they're different, we're left to conclude with either "everything happens" (aka: I'll constantly mindgame people into warlock punches) or mindgames don't matter (aka: MK is gonna constantly outspace Marth's dtilt with his dtilt, even though the difference is about a pixel).


Neither is a good philosophy for discussing match-ups because we all know that mistakes happen, but how often they happen is dependent on the ease of making the mistake.


Also,
Gheb: Short memory I guess, but forgive me for not forgetting about ROB just because MK destroys him. ROB is another one of the characters that heavily suppressed by MK. Because of this, people heavily underrate him, yourself included.

nah, inui thinks snake has no disadvantages and more potential than MK lol, I think he's 45:55 against MK, Wario, DDD, and I think Pikachu is probably a little worse than 50:50. MK's worst matchup is arguably 50:50, but could be 55:45, obviously MK is better and I would never argue that. I just said Snake > Marth

Fair enough with MK, DDD he's definitely worse off though.

edit:

Paper has to assume that the character is played at their maximum potential without any screwups, becuase otherwise it's not really playing the character.

No, paper assumes what is humanly possible, and we all know that two people on the same skill level are attempting to mindgame each other, and do succeed multiple times within a match to greater or lesser extents.


As I've said many times, "if "on paper" doesn't reflect reality, get better players or better paper", here we need better paper.

 

[|RK|]

Is this sarcasam? Sorry, but it looks weird. (stupid internet and it's inability to convey tone of voice) And I really do think this is true. M2K is undoubetedly the best player, and he plays an "ungrabbable character" yet Lain got him like 5 times. Paper has to assume that the character is played at their maximum potential without any screwups, becuase otherwise it's not really playing the character.

Lol, no, it isn't sarcasm.

@salaboB: so negative! But I figure it'd at least give him an agreed on 50:50, if that.

And it doesn't matter if the other player must play harder against a good Meta-Knight. It's what makes competitive gamin fun, IMO. The fact that there's always this one character that you cannot rely on a crutch for, that you have to rely on a single character who's abilities you are comfortable with. That character might even be your main. So much fun

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

I see the little COLOR="" and can't resist changing the word in it, since it's not modifying the contents of your post at all -- you're not using it for emphasis or highlighting of any particular part. It's not just you, we've got a lot of people suddenly who insist on coloring their whole posts and I've been modifying theirs too.

Rob has the matchup in his favor because, from all reports, he can out-camp Snake on any map that isn't too closed-in for Snake to control the whole thing at once.

Rob still can't kill snake til 170. and rob wont be gimping any good snakes. and I believe by now snake's have found a way around that. look at afro vs chibo.