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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?


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Tarmogoyf

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Stuff, yes mistakes happen, I wrote the (much-ignored) mechanism for accounting for how much human error should be accounted for in match-up discussions and to what degree. The thing is, the level of errors you're suggesting (namely ICs getting a grab) are high level mistakes. I mean, how often do you suppose that a player will get mindgamed into a warlock punch? Because in the marth match-up, that's not much larger of a mistake in terms of spacing.


That's the thing, without people actually referencing to any sort of mechanism for dealing with human mistakes, "ics getting a grab while in a position to execute CG" is not much more different then "Ike getting an f-smash", which is not much different from "MK not spacing properly to avoid getting blown up by a snake grenade when he dtilts".

They're obviously different standards, but without any way to judge why they're different, we're left to conclude with either "everything happens" (aka: I'll constantly mindgame people into warlock punches) or mindgames don't matter (aka: MK is gonna constantly outspace Marth's dtilt with his dtilt, even though the difference is about a pixel).
If it's such a high level mistake, how come M2K/Dojo made it moderatley often? It's not that hard to get in an 8 frame move at close range if you just ran up and powershielded their move and the opponent made a minor spacing error, espically considering that SoPo has a Dthrow GC if nana isn't colse enough (it allows her to close the gap). And if you get predicted?

And please don't tell me that an 8-10 (standing/dash) frame move is as telegraphed as an Ike Fsmash/Warlock punch. ICs are an agressive character with poor airspeed, they run at you a fair enough amount of the time. Thats just bad arguing. There is an easy to detrimine that they are diffirent:You see good ICs get grabs at high level play moderatley often. Not OMG every stock is a grab death, but it happens, and ICs can win off a free stock against most characters.

You also didn't factor in prediction. If you predict a move , you can just run up and powershield, then shieldgrab. Techchase? Grab. Badly DIed blizzard? Grab. Badly Died Utilt? Grab. Spacing error? Grab. They have numerous ways to get a grab that don't require the majyor error you seem to assume. The errors are only moderate. If they were so majyor, M2K Dojo, Anther ect wouldn't be making them at all (at all meaning like the same level as an Ike Fsmash, which you never see at a high level.)
 

adumbrodeus

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If it's such a high level mistake, how come M2K/Dojo made it moderatley often? It's not that hard to get in an 8 frame move at close range if you just ran up and powershielded their move and the opponent made a minor spacing error, espically considering that SoPo has a Dthrow GC if nana isn't colse enough (it allows her to close the gap). And if you get predicted?
Off day? Not good at playing against the ICs.

And please don't tell me that an 8-10 (standing/dash) frame move is as telegraphed as an Ike Fsmash/Warlock punch. ICs are an agressive character with poor airspeed, they run at you a fair enough amount of the time. Thats just bad arguing. There is an easy to detrimine that they are diffirent:You see good ICs get grabs at high level play moderatley often. Not OMG every stock is a grab death, but it happens, and ICs can win off a free stock against most characters.
It depends on the character. Marths should have them so far out of grab range that yes, it is an equivalent mistake. MK, less so, but it's a pretty bad mistake. Snake is again, an equivalent mistake.

And it's not because their grabs take a while, it's because a lot of characters simply should not allow ICs close enough for it to be anything less then a massive mistake.

You also didn't factor in prediction. If you predict a move , you can just run up and powershield, then shieldgrab. Techchase? Grab. Badly DIed blizzard? Grab. Badly Died Utilt? Grab. Spacing error? Grab. They have numerous ways to get a grab that don't require the majyor error you seem to assume. The errors are only moderate. If they were so majyor, M2K Dojo, Anther ect wouldn't be making them at all (at all meaning like the same level as an Ike Fsmash, which you never see at a high level.)
You need to reread, my schema factored in prediction, that was the "raw chance" section, since that's an odds-based schema, player skill morphs the ratio, but the odds of this occuring are the default.

Depends on the move, everyone needs to play very safely against ICs, and one thing I think is that people aren't used to playing against them properly yet, they're still too used to IC players not being able to reliably execute the chaingrabs.

Bad DI, unless it's a set-up, or the move is too quick to properly DI, you should make that mistake. Bad DI, is a technical mistake, unless you have to predict it, it's a mistake that should not happen statistically at the top of the metagame.

Again, the difficulty of getting a grab is VERY match-up defendant, with some it's very easy (Ganon), others (marth) it's very hard. The harder it is, the bigger a mistake needed.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Off day? Not good at playing against the ICs.
Maybe dojo, but M2K only has the bad day excuse, since he has played (and beaten) Meep in a tourney, and played and beat lain later the same day. (which goes against the bad day theroy in itself. It looks more like he wasn't used to Lains playstyle.)

It depends on the character. Marths should have them so far out of grab range that yes, it is an equivalent mistake. MK, less so, but it's a pretty bad mistake. Snake is again, an equivalent mistake.
Obviously. But....

And it's not because their grabs take a while, it's because a lot of characters simply should not allow ICs close enough for it to be anything less then a massive mistake.
there is a trick here. It's true that you shouldn't allow ICs close to you, but you have to either approach (almost unversally a bad idea in brawl, even more so considering the risk/reward given from the fact that htey have a garunteed kill if you make a mistake) or retreat until the stage ends. Another of the ICs advantages is that they create positional advantages against their opponents by approaching, because their opponent can't afford to be in melee/boxing range. If the character (MK and marth more than snake) doesn't have enough mobility, it causes serious problems for them, as they HAVE to get the ICs off of them.

You need to reread, my schema factored in prediction, that was the "raw chance" section, since that's an odds-based schema, player skill morphs the ratio, but the odds of this occuring are the default.
Pllayer skill morphs the ratio yes, but as you said yourself, character mindgame potential is also very important. ICs have the greatest (IMO, this is debateable) mindgame potential of any character, for the simple reason that properly desynched IC is like fighting 2 characters at once, allowing for greater setups, more difficulty to read, superior approaches, ect.


Depends on the move, everyone needs to play very safely against ICs, and one thing I think is that people aren't used to playing against them properly yet, they're still too used to IC players not being able to reliably execute the chaingrabs.
This is probably true, but it can't be answered until we see more top level ICs play against other top level players. Theroy won't help to much here, only watching and waiting for developments will (again, IMO)

Bad DI, unless it's a set-up, or the move is too quick to properly DI, you should make that mistake. Bad DI, is a technical mistake, unless you have to predict it, it's a mistake that should not happen statistically at the top of the metagame.
Bad DI is difficult to detirmine, since against ICs, its also dependant on wether the ICs are desynched or not. You can pretty consistently Di and avoid Bilzzard setups when they are synched, but it's much harder in nana/popo grabs you in the middle of the blizzard right as it hits. Less so with Utilt, but still the same idea. The problem is the amount of variables that come into place.

Again, the difficulty of getting a grab is VERY match-up defendant, with some it's very easy (Ganon), others (marth) it's very hard. The harder it is, the bigger a mistake needed.
Obviously true, but it's still not so clear cut as you are making it out to be. There isn't enough actual matches that we can observe to detirmine if it is as easy or hard as we believe, since top marths don't seem to play top ICs enough. Snake is obviously from what we can see the hardest to grab, and MK is still evenish.

Also, you ment "dependant", not defendant right?
 

lain

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I think the biggest problem people have is grasping that human error runs deep into the game. Much deeper then you think.
 

Atomsk_92

Smash Hero
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I think the biggest problem MOST people have in this community is accepting that they suck.
 

ShadowLink84

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How is it not an evidence? Ally defeat not an average Joe, but the best Metaknight player in the world.
because being the best metaknight in the world automatically implies that the individual (m2k) is perfect in his gameplay and is completeply incapable of making errors.

So falling on explosives through his own errors did not occur, Ally made m2k fall into them, when he was being struck by the shuttle loop on delfino!

Beating m2k does mean something. it is an indication of the possibility of the matchup between snake and Mk being even. This one instance does not mean that MK is automatically non ban worthy because hell, what about the times that M2K has not lost and beaten ally?

We can't base ourselves purely in theory, if theory was OMG SO IMPORTANT Fox wouldn't stand a chance in Melee, but still! He's allowed.
No we should all use the flaws within inductive reasoning!
Ravager Affinity should NOT bbe banned because of tooth and nails presence!

you cannot base the entire argument absed on the performance of ONE player.
simply because as I said earlier, it can go in a million ways.
m2k was tired, fatigued, wasnt at his best, a fly hit him in the eyes, he was ill, was not ni the right state of mind. etc etc
All these factors come into play and so using players performance as evidence, let alone a single player, is a flawed argument.

Which is why we also include theory.

And guess who dominated tournaments all day? Marth. If skill can overcome even the best MK player in the world, not once but twice(Lain vs. M2K), how's MK SOOOOOOOOOOO B0RKENNNNN? Oh, forgot to mention Dojo was beaten.
Lain got ***** afterwards. hur hur.
Upset happen.
How about the MANY other times that M2k has beaten other olayers of high level with his metaknight hmm?
What about the times that M2k beat ally? Do they not matter?
or the times he beat NL?




The pro-ban side really is ridiculous.
Since spade fox made this same mistake and now you have, I suppose it is appopriate for me to do this, again.

I AM ANTI-BAN
YOU STUPID TWIT!
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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I think the biggest problem MOST people have in this community is accepting that they suck.
This.

Just because you get ***** by MK doesn't mean he's so obviously broken he must be banned. It might just mean that you suck at the game.


We do make a pretty sexy couple

I mean Inui on the right thought i was hot XD
Inui thinks a lot of people are hot. Which one is which, BTW?
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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I need frontal face (and possibly crotch) shots to really tell. Didn't notice "...msk" could stand for Atomsk. It's a bit confusing, though, since Dojo looks like the more jailbaitish of the two. Then again, maybe Dojo is the more jailbaitish (I know Atomsk is 16).
 

Anth0ny

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I think the biggest problem MOST people have in this community is accepting that they suck.
THIS. OH GOD THIS.

Seriously, if guys like:

Ally (Snake) (CAPTAIN FALCON)
Atomsk (ddd)
Lain (ICs)
Lee Martin (Lucario)
Ksizzle (Lucario)
ADHD (Diddy)
Anther (Pika)
Holy (ROB)
Razer (Snake)
DMG (Wario)
NEO (Marth)
Roy R (Marth)
Boss (Mario/Luigi)
Ninjalink (EVERYONE)

and *so* many more have no problem with MK, what's the excuse? There is none. You suck at the game and can't deal with it. Yes, MK is the best in the game. Yes, it's not going to be easy to beat him at first. But don't waste your time debating it on these forums. Practice with MKs at tournaments. The same tournaments that "scrub MKs **** me so hard" at. Play WIFI. If Apex has taught us anything, it's that Wifi is absolutely a viable way to get practice. Ally, Anti and ADHD say hi.

Just because you can't beat MK does not mean that he needs to be banned. It means that you are either not a good enough player to deal with it or just don't know the matchup properly. After last weekend, it's clear that Snake goes even with MK, and that Iceys are very, very close as well. Diddy and Wario are right there too.

So, what's the excuse? No johns kids, get out there and practice. Seriously, play Wifi more.
 

Atomsk_92

Smash Hero
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No one took notice of me taking m2k to last stock 60% with DDD in a match he is the best at :3

Ok then dojo here




Lain was so into us


YUNA i turned 17 in January XD
 

Yuna

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As for banning MK:
MK did not take half of Top 10 at Apex. MK didn't even take 1/3rd (no, some of the Top 10 randomly going MK for a few matches does not count, that's like saying Ally went CF for a few matches and thus CF placed!) of Top 10.

If MK is so broken he must be banned or he'll dominate all tournaments and no other character will stand a chance, then explain the absense of MKs in the top.

No one took notice of me taking m2k to last stock 60% with DDD in a match he is the best at :3
They were no doubt staring at your jailbaity ***.

I wonder if Inui would cream his pants if we made out for him. But if we're gonna do anything sexual, the facial hair seriously has to go. Ew.

No one took notice of me taking m2k to last stock 60% with DDD in a match he is the best at :3

Ok then dojo here

Lain was so into us


YUNA i turned 17 in January XD
I need closeups!

And whatever. That just means you're more legal.
 

cutter

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I'm afraid that you just shot your credibility.
Really? ADHD, Ally, and Anti were complete unknowns before Brawl came out; they started playing competitively online and have went successfully to RL play.

I'm not trying to push Wifi saying it's amazing and all, but you really can't just automatically discredit what Anth0ny said.
 

Yuna

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Really? ADHD, Ally, and Anti were complete unknowns before Brawl came out; they started playing competitively online and have went successfully to RL play.

I'm not trying to push Wifi saying it's amazing and all, but you really can't just automatically discredit what Anth0ny said.
You can go from Wifi to become a good player, yeah. But you cannot become a good player by playing Wifi. Maybe mediocre, but not good.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,136
Really? ADHD, Ally, and Anti were complete unknowns before Brawl came out; they started playing competitively online and have went successfully to RL play.

I'm not trying to push Wifi saying it's amazing and all, but you really can't discredit what Anth0ny said.
Playing online more is not likely to teach people how to deal with MK, directly. From what I've heard, he's not nearly the same threat there as he is in local play -- so local play is where you have to fight MK if you want to get good against him.

It may even be people primarily practicing in wifi against him and then getting owned locally that's creating a lot of the "HOW DO I BEAT HIM!" problems.

I see nothing wrong with playing wifi. But playing wifi to be able to beat MK at local tournaments? I doubt it helps that much.
 

Atomsk_92

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6,362
They were no doubt staring at your jailbaity ***.

I wonder if Inui would cream his pants if we made out for him. But if we're gonna do anything sexual, the facial hair seriously has to go. Ew.
LOL Inui almost creamed himself when me and dojo almost kissed :)
 

Nic64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,725
it all depends on who you ask. some people john about MK even more online than IRL(although this is pretty ********).
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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lmfao @ this page being about Yunas gayness for Atomsk and Dojo. Too good :laugh:
You've got that a little backwards. Everyone's gay for me.

LOL Inui almost creamed himself when me and dojo almost kissed :)
I saw absolutely no protesting against the proposed shaving and snogging. So it's pretty much settled then for my trip to the U.S. sometime after November 2009.

I'll supply the shaving cream. Downstairs tidying up as well while we're at it?

LOL Inui almost creamed himself when me and dojo almost kissed :)
Some people also think Smash Balls should be allowed in tournament play. Some people think we should play 4-man FFA. Some people want to ban MK.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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Or the trap is the truth, I'm actually straight XD
And this would really matter how? I've literally had sex with with more straight guys than I can count on one hand. I've made out with and generally become gropingly acquainted with literally 100s of straight guys. Incidentally, I've trapped over 10,000 straight guys. I should have my own sitcom or reality show.

I can see it now: "It's a Trap!"
 
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