Kinzer
Mammy
MK "easily defeatable?"
Give me a guide or a link to one, and all my moneys are belong to you.
Give me a guide or a link to one, and all my moneys are belong to you.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Because people intentionally pick characters that leave them at a disadvantage?
I agree.
tekkie
Smash Master
Not picking MK = disadvantage.
Not everyone likes to play as MK, and if people are forced to play someone they don't like, where's the fun in competing?
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
maybe in beating the other guy?
No one's being forced to play as anyone they don't like :/
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RKJ
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
The way people act like not using MK puts you at a seriously significant disadvantage when it comes to winning is becoming disgusting.
Wow, someone is the safest, not like that hasn't happened a thousand times in other fighters. Dear God people, the same points are brought up and refuted, either say something new or for the love of all that is holy SHUT THE HELL UP.
Wow, someone is the safest, not like that hasn't happened a thousand times in other fighters. Dear God people, the same points are brought up and refuted, either say something new or for the love of all that is holy SHUT THE HELL UP.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
^Or how about somebody locks this thread finally! This is getting nowhere and will get nowhere.
The same points are brought up OVER and OVER AGAIN. Please!
The same points are brought up OVER and OVER AGAIN. Please!
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
My avatar this thread
Was good a while back though. That ended since Mango trolled.
Then it broke down into a headache.
Was good a while back though. That ended since Mango trolled.
Then it broke down into a headache.
Aurablade262
Smash Cadet
Hahaha! That picture is GREATNESS!!!
Aurablade262
Smash Cadet
Why should we ban him just because everyone loses to him? If Nintendo thought he was going to be impossible to beat, the wouldn't have put him in.
Stop complaining about him and start training if you want to win so badly!
Stop complaining about him and start training if you want to win so badly!
Cold Fusion
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2009
- Messages
- 836
Nintendo never intended for Brawl to become a competitive game, so there shouldn't be a reason for Nintendo to believe that MK is too good. Nintendo intended for the game to be played casually.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Who cares what the hell nitendo thought. They don't know 99% of the stuff discovered when it is released. Horrible arguement.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
...
Developer intent is irrelevant to competitive gaming because it is impossible to discern with 100% accuracy and applies rules the game knows not into competitive play.
The fact that the result of your argument is the more competitively sound of the two options does not detract from the uncompetitiveness of your reasoning.
BarDulL
Town Vampire
lol. yuna, i'm done addressing your posts.
"Are you saying the several characters who have 55:45s against him stand no chance of beating him?"
loooool
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
CR4SH
Smash Lord
OK, imagine a gaming community faced with an irreconcilably broken character. Do we A) create a couple goofy rules to try and un-break the character or B) ban that character?
Ban MK. Do eet.
Ban MK. Do eet.
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
Except MetaKnight is no where close to being broken. He is simply the best character, always going to be a best character.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
What if you asked the developers?
FB Dj_Iskascribble
Frostbitten
pretty please?
I wish people would quit bringing other fighters in with no justification for how it's relevant to rule decisions in Brawl.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I wish people would quit thinking Brawl is not a fighting game or can have similar situation to other fighters.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Spadefox is right-SSBB essentially IS a fighter. Just that ring outs are all that matters. 
It's very different, but still in the genre.
I'm honestly still leaning towards ban on this point. Mostly due to personal experience. I picked up Snake, Diddy Kong, and G&W a long time ago and they were my mains... Until I saw this (take 2, actually) and said "Hmm... Maybe I should try this guy out". A little MK theory later, and I was ****** better with him than with any of my other, more trained chars. The reason being that MK's curve is so sickeningly low to learn. It's like (OMFG another fighting comparison) using Kilik in SCIII and just using those anoying multihit poke attacks like a ****ing noob-it kills, it's easy to learn, and it's rather debasing at some points. Difference: This one works. I dunno.
To me, MK seems like he warrants a handicap. I said this before-banning him is not so elegant a solution as applying a handicap of sorts to MK matches. But his current power is over the limit. And the fact that anyone can pick him up so easily... Ionno.
It's very different, but still in the genre.I'm honestly still leaning towards ban on this point. Mostly due to personal experience. I picked up Snake, Diddy Kong, and G&W a long time ago and they were my mains... Until I saw this (take 2, actually) and said "Hmm... Maybe I should try this guy out". A little MK theory later, and I was ****** better with him than with any of my other, more trained chars. The reason being that MK's curve is so sickeningly low to learn. It's like (OMFG another fighting comparison) using Kilik in SCIII and just using those anoying multihit poke attacks like a ****ing noob-it kills, it's easy to learn, and it's rather debasing at some points.
Difference: This one works. I dunno.To me, MK seems like he warrants a handicap. I said this before-banning him is not so elegant a solution as applying a handicap of sorts to MK matches. But his current power is over the limit. And the fact that anyone can pick him up so easily... Ionno.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Also, proposal: start take 4. This thread is ****ed due to something.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Why would you need to be the one who issues a report? Yuna can address his own responses. Get off of his **** already.
Master Raven
Smash Master
I dislike the learning curve argument because his learning low learning curve is only effective if you fight people who aren't that well-versed in the MK matchup, and on top of that it's irrelevant, or else we'd be *****ing about DDD because of his ******-*** easy-to-use CG that inflicts lots of damage. Now, high level MK play on the other hand is what's really fueling this discussion in the first place. We shouldn't really put so much emphasis on low-mid levels of play, because you don't notice how good MK really is in those levels until you start to examine top players like Dojo and M2K.
Now to me at least one of two things are required for MK to be banned:
1) Does not have at least one even matchup that's even on at least a couple neutrals and a few CPs.
2) This is hypothetical as there doesn't really seem to be anything of this sort at this point, but it would require that MK has at least one or two majorly exploitable weaknesses if he happens to mess up on an attack at any given point, like Snake's recovery, or Melee Fox getting comboed to **** in Melee or etc. something like that.
Now, high level MK play on the other hand is what's really fueling this discussion in the first place. We shouldn't really put so much emphasis on low-mid levels of play, because you don't notice how good MK really is in those levels until you start to examine top players like Dojo and M2K.Now to me at least one of two things are required for MK to be banned:
1) Does not have at least one even matchup that's even on at least a couple neutrals and a few CPs.
2) This is hypothetical as there doesn't really seem to be anything of this sort at this point, but it would require that MK has at least one or two majorly exploitable weaknesses if he happens to mess up on an attack at any given point, like Snake's recovery, or Melee Fox getting comboed to **** in Melee or etc. something like that.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Why? It's fun there! Oh, whoops. ;P
Ich Bin Awesome
Smash Journeyman
Marcbri
Smash Lord
if you are better than the MK player you can beat him with more than 10 characters who have 55-45 / 60-40 match-up. now tell me how he is unbeatable?
are you saying that those match-ups are fake and that MK ***** every character in the game?
sucking with a character against MK=/= that character being useless against MK.
let's watch match-up topics so everyone can see that lots of characters have options against MK.
MK boards:
55-45 against: Snake, Falco, Wario, Diddy, Kirby
60:40 against: DDD, G&W,Marth, ROB, Olimar, DK, TL, Peach, Bowser,Charizard, Yoshi
now let's watch other boards' match-ups
people who consider his character 5-5 against MK:
Falco, Wario, DK, IC( not covered by MKs)
45-55 for MK:
Snake, Kirby, Bowser, Yoshi
40-60 for MK:
DDD, G&W,Diddy, Lucario,pikachu, zss( not coverered by MKs) Pit ( not covered by Mks), Zelda, Sheik(not covered by Mks) , Ness ( not covered by mks), Sonic, Charizard, Jigglypuff.
all together characters that can beat MK without many problems ( using the match-up threads)are: Falco, Wario,ROB, DK, IC,Snake,Kirby,Bowser, Yoshi, DDD,G&W, Diddy, Lucario, ZSS , Pit, Zelda, Sheik, Ness, Sonic, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Peach, TL, Olimar, Marth.
that's 25 characters, some might be biased and maybe MK is better against them, but 25 characters ( with most of the times both boards agreeing) are all wrong? I don't think so.
edit:
wow, your arguments for the MK ban are awesome, I never though it that way D=
Curaga
Smash Ace
Space Animals and Shiek as well. Marth was never omnipotent.
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As for the topic on hand, more of the focus should be placed on, will the removal of Meta Knight promote the growth of other characters to have a prominent role in the tournament scene.
There are a lot of fighting games who have characters who are overused and to some extent, easy to master, and easy to spam for the win. Ken in SF4 is a notable one, Kazuya from Tekken is greatly "overused".
To really approach the situation properly, we need videos from these tournaments so we can analyze the Meta Knight players and pin-point certain tactics or moves that show an immense superiority over all other characters. If someone could help with that effort, I think this discussion will have a lot more facts behind it rather than just people getting upset with others over their opinions.
~
Tekken is considered a highly balanced fighting game, but still at big tournaments, you aren't going to find a healthy supply of Wang players putting down Kazuyas and Heihachis. A really crazy Wang player can parry/dodge every attack thrown at him and take anyone down. Wang is just a stupidly hard character to make effective.
SSBB is still a fairly new game, and its going to take some time for people to truly get into the full swing of things. At this point, a ban on Meta Knight would just be a defensive measure for the future of this game.. but at the same time, will banning Meta Knight stunt the growth of those skilled players who train hard everyday to destroy MK players?
I'll be interested in seeing what happens next.
I gave him 4 posts of 100% civil and amicable replies. He gave me zero new material in his replies, opting to instead just repeating his own arguments ad nauseum and/or reword them a bit + declare several discussion threads he himself brought up as temporarily "irrelevant" after the discussion hadn't been in his favor and dropped them.Lol, Sirlin's forum is pretty easy to find.
And I'm willing to bet he had rebuttals to your arguments, but he hated your tone, so he stopped trying. No offense, but you were a bit cynical. On the other hand, did he have logical rebuttals to your arguments, no ideal.
4 posts later, we hadn't gotten anywhere. It was eloquent BS:ing and I had had enough. Clearly, being nice wasn't helping.
They aren't forced to at all. Using this logic, there will almost always be a character people are "forced" to play as because not choosing him/her would mean putting yourself at a disadvantage. Even Melee, where there was rock-paper-scissors element to things, there was still a character who had overall the best match-ups (I can't remember if that was Fox or Marth, I think it was one of them). Not choosing him means "deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage" and people are "forced to play as him"!
After all, he is the easiest path to victory! Come off it!
Because you're acting like if we don't ban Meta Knight, it'll be the end of the world, end of the Brawl scene or at least end of "fun" in playing Brawl based on idle speculation. Meanwhile, we have actual evidence in the form of precedence where similar (or worse) characters were not banned, yet none of those things happened!
You have idle speculation and made up BS. We have actual factual evidence, logic and precedence. Geez, I wonder whose weapons are better!
But who cares, really, what their intents are?
Learning curves do not matter. Because at the highest levels of play, people will master the characters no matter the learning curve. And who really cares where or not lower skilled players can or can't learn to play certain characters well?
Sheik has a pretty ****tly low learning curve in NTSC Melee. Did we ban her?
Kilik has one of SCIII's (andIt's like (OMFG another fighting comparison) using Kilik in SCIII and just using those anoying multihit poke attacks like a ****ing noob-it kills, it's easy to learn, and it's rather debasing at some points.
Kilik has one of SCIII's (all SCIIIs, really) easiest learning curves, yes. Guess what, in SCIII, Kilik is Top Tier. How's that for not working? Also, no one's even contemplating banning him.It's like (OMFG another fighting comparison) using Kilik in SCIII and just using those anoying multihit poke attacks like a ****ing noob-it kills, it's easy to learn, and it's rather debasing at some points.
Yes, people who lack debating abilities often run away from people they cannot refute.
I actually missed that one the first time around.
Also, but it's so tasty!
Maybe we're looking at different tournament results here. Marth took almost every single major tournament (and by major, I mean the biggest) from 2002-2008 with intermittent tournaments being won by other characters, but with Marth taking the majority of them thanks to first Ken and the M2K.
Obviously, a ban is deserved!
BS argument. I'm too lazy to address this for the zillionth time, especially when we've refuted this over and over, the last being only two pages ago.
Finally a productive suggestion. I predict it will fail, though, but at least it'd be a productive way of trying to find arguments for banning MK.
What it all boils down to is whether or not a ban is warranted. "A few characters will place better!" =/= warranted.
No, we do not handicap characters (this is where salaboB will undoubtedly bring up banned stages).
This would help how? Except for the solving the page-bug that is.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Diddy vs. MK isn't even 6:4; that was from a pretty outdated matchup discussion. Diddy boards have basically agreed slight advantage MK although basically even (55-45 ish) although some (AZ, me, others) feel that the matchup can only get better for Diddy while some (Hanson, Dekar, others) feel that the matchup can only get worse for Diddy.
But at the moment, it's evenish.
also, what marcbri said. He has even and very close matchups to the point where skill is the determining factor of the winner, or there's a slight uphill slope but still a very winnable match. MK really isn't the worst matchup for many characters.
But at the moment, it's evenish.
also, what marcbri said. He has even and very close matchups to the point where skill is the determining factor of the winner, or there's a slight uphill slope but still a very winnable match. MK really isn't the worst matchup for many characters.
kackamee
Smash Master
Yoshi comes closest to MK IMO. Bowser gets destroyed if MK gets the matchup right. I don't even see how people think DK works here. Snake is ok. It's an unfair advantage ontop of not being able to CP him ontop of gay planking. He is just way too gud.
It's different. MK=/=Shiek. There is such a big gap between the two in their games. MK even has his own spot on the tier list above everyone else with a perfect score of 15.00 Shiek was more easily beatable than MK is, or (seems to be) ever will. And Shiek actually had matchups that weren't in her favor every single time. Melee atleast had CP chain. In brawl MK breaks that chain. There is no true CP for MK except MK.
I do enjoy playing MK sometimes, but t is really annoying go to a tourney and see a bunch of MKs. It's especially annoying when every time you win a match, the person CP's MK just because and does a bunch better just because of it. MetaKnight is taking the fun out of brawl.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That's why the Dededes always complain about Meta Knight, and not Falco.
That's why the Bowsers complain about Meta Knight, and not Dedede.
lol right.
You're obviously too dumb to read what the posting of the tier list thread actually says. It says that the score DISPLAYS THE AVERAGE OF THE VOTES. This means that everyone in the SBR agreed on Meta Knight being the best character, NOT THAT META KNIGHT IS PERFECT.
Actually, no. I enjoy Meta Knight - both fighting and playing as him - more than for instance having to deal with chaingrabbers, mainly Dedede.
kackamee
Smash Master
O.o wait...what? Seems to me like you kinda just listed chars thar. I know IC=no, Kirby=no, Cario=no, ZSS=no, Pit=No, Zelda=No, Shiek=definatly not, Ness=I dunno where you even got that, Sonic=Super hard, Jiggs=One of her hardest matchups, Olimar=No. That's just a first look at it. And yet still, no one is even with him.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
You say there's such a big gap between their games, yet:
-You cite the tier list, which is an awful source to use because it's arguably outdated, wrong in the first place, and IS JUST A LIST. You can't say, "He has his own spot on the tier list!" when that has absolutely nothing to do with how he's actually played in the game.
-You say Sheik was more easily beatable, which really is just an opinion and also still doesn't prove how one or the other is gamebreaking.
-It's annoying for you to go to a tournament and see a bunch of MKs? Couldn't any player of any fighter say the exact same thing about their top character? MK is no different. His usage isn't even forced; you still have a very good chance of winning using any other top or mid-top tier character, it's just that MK is popular.
-Someone shouldn't be able to CP MK and do a bunch better. Where are you getting this information/made-up statement? If they CP as MK and do a ton better, it either means that the matchup is better, they just suck with their main, or you just suck with the matchup. Yes, you can pick up MK and win at a very basic level, but a basic level of playing doesn't matter towards this when we're talking about top levels of play. Somebody will do better with their main that they've invested tons of time in than a character they think they can just win with three moves.
-Saying that MK takes the fun out of Brawl is your own personal opinion. MK, for me, is one of my top three favourite matchups, next to Snake. Neither of these really matter, because it's personal opinion.
edit: Also, M2K went to a tournament where he thought MK was legal and didn't realize that MK was banned until he actually got there. He had to use his D3, which obviously didn't have as much experience than his MK, and he still split for first.
Stop writing off the skill of MK mains.
For everyone, MK isn't the best counterpick against MK, because quite a bit of people are horrible at dittos and would rather fight a 55:45 matchup than a ditto matchup.
You can also just as easily CP Snake, Wario, Diddy, or Falco against an MK and have an evenish matchup where skill is the deciding factor.
And macabri actually used the matchup threads for his information, while it looks like you're just saying no to random matchups. Because I know for a fact that Lucario, Kirby, and Zelda are all no worse than 60:40 for their own characters.
-You cite the tier list, which is an awful source to use because it's arguably outdated, wrong in the first place, and IS JUST A LIST. You can't say, "He has his own spot on the tier list!" when that has absolutely nothing to do with how he's actually played in the game.
-You say Sheik was more easily beatable, which really is just an opinion and also still doesn't prove how one or the other is gamebreaking.
-It's annoying for you to go to a tournament and see a bunch of MKs? Couldn't any player of any fighter say the exact same thing about their top character? MK is no different. His usage isn't even forced; you still have a very good chance of winning using any other top or mid-top tier character, it's just that MK is popular.
-Someone shouldn't be able to CP MK and do a bunch better. Where are you getting this information/made-up statement? If they CP as MK and do a ton better, it either means that the matchup is better, they just suck with their main, or you just suck with the matchup. Yes, you can pick up MK and win at a very basic level, but a basic level of playing doesn't matter towards this when we're talking about top levels of play. Somebody will do better with their main that they've invested tons of time in than a character they think they can just win with three moves.
-Saying that MK takes the fun out of Brawl is your own personal opinion. MK, for me, is one of my top three favourite matchups, next to Snake. Neither of these really matter, because it's personal opinion.
edit: Also, M2K went to a tournament where he thought MK was legal and didn't realize that MK was banned until he actually got there. He had to use his D3, which obviously didn't have as much experience than his MK, and he still split for first.
Stop writing off the skill of MK mains.
For everyone, MK isn't the best counterpick against MK, because quite a bit of people are horrible at dittos and would rather fight a 55:45 matchup than a ditto matchup.
You can also just as easily CP Snake, Wario, Diddy, or Falco against an MK and have an evenish matchup where skill is the deciding factor.
And macabri actually used the matchup threads for his information, while it looks like you're just saying no to random matchups. Because I know for a fact that Lucario, Kirby, and Zelda are all no worse than 60:40 for their own characters.
kackamee
Smash Master
10chars
/10chars
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Okay, so you understand this:
WHAT MAKES META KNIGHT "PERFECT" IF JUST EVERYONE AGREES ON HIM TO BE THE BEST CHARACTER?!
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