bow master1
Smash Apprentice
still with this.its not going 2 happen and i wish u guys would stop bringing up that asuma thing.its diffrent games abd people.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
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Asuma is, like, Mid Tier and will never be banned.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That's also the reason why my friend horribly fails if he uses MK in a match but almost always 3 stocks me with his Samus (unless we have a ditto, lolz), right? ^^
Man, people keep bringing up the same points over and over again, but in differently worded sentences...
And those same questions get answered the same way, but in differently worded sentences...
I'm sure Yuna is getting tired of repeating the SAME thing over and over again.
And those same questions get answered the same way, but in differently worded sentences...
I'm sure Yuna is getting tired of repeating the SAME thing over and over again.
Excellence
Smash Champion
If Meta Knight was banned more characters would be able to place higher in tournaments.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Yea.
Instead of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy, Marth, Wario, GaW, Falco and Dedede we'd have Snake, Diddy, Marth, Wario, GaW, Falco and Dedede.
WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT!!!
Are you aware of the fact that Meta Knight doesn't make ANY character unviable? Are you aware of the fact that King Dedede makes MORE characters unviable than Meta Knight ever could dream of?
If Brawl was banned in favour of Melee, we'd have many more character placing high in tournaments!
PikaPika!
Smash Ace
If Yuna was banned this thread would be place much higher in tournaments and also not be so annoying!
Super Shadow Brawler 99
Smash Apprentice
Man, I think this thread going to keep going until someone closes it soon. I don't have a problem with it, just MetaKnight continues to be the center of attention all the time.
Delvro
Smash Ace
This is actually wrong. Meta-knight is the worst match-up for pretty much all of mid tier and below with a few exceptions (yoshi, dk, bowser, lol ganondorf whose worst match up is shiek/ice climbers) mid-high tier characters like ROB and ZSS would I think (although it's mostly personal opinion) do a lot better in tournaments because they have few terrible matchups with the exception of MK (although ROB now has ZSS herself as a terrible matchup).
Even Luigi has far more trouble fighting MK than DDD and DDD has an infinite on Luigi. No joke.
Now by itself that doesn't mean we should ban MK but I'm just pointing out that he DOES (by himself) narrow the scope of the viable characters in metagame quite a bit because of his high tournament usage combined with his hugely favorable matchups with a majority of the cast that other top-tiers typically don't have, at least to the same extent as MK.
No.
MK is a bad matchup for most, but not the worst. If anything, you have it the wrong way:
Fix'd.
BarDulL
Town Vampire
lol, ok yuna, if we've figured out how to beat MK, then why are we even having this discussion?
secondly, TKD and tyrant weren't on the rankings before they switched to MK aka they weren't "good" until they switched.
get your facts straight
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
I don't think that's going to change even after the thread closes.
Are you sure about that? I don't even see them worded differently anymore.
IDK about Yuna. I would think it more likely that he is tired of this thread being resurrected under a different name multiple times with nothing new to argue. You'd have to ask him, though.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
I've said it before, why not just ban planking by instituting the ledge grab limit rule?
And as for why, well, planking is a huge part of MK's game, get rid or limit that, and hes less broken.
And as for why, well, planking is a huge part of MK's game, get rid or limit that, and hes less broken.
Are you saying there is no way to beat MK? Are you saying the several characters who have 55:45s against him stand no chance of beating him? Are you saying the several people who have won tournaments as characters other than MK are just making **** up?
Just because MK does not have any genuinely disadvantageous match-ups that we know of at this writing moment does not mean we haven't "figured out how to beat MK". We have.
Are you saying they could never have been good players if they hadnt switched to MK? Good players are good players.
Also, IIRC, they didn't magically go from "bad" to "really good" overnight by simply switching to MK. So you really have no case here.
This is a lie. MK is not the worst match-up of many characters. And even if he were, and? They still have several really bad match-ups besides MK. They will still get *****.
Also, DK's annd Bowser's worst match-ups are Sheik/IC's? In what alternate universe?
Yeah. Keep telling yourself that. This shows how much you know about Competitive Smash. If only there was a test one had to take before being eligible to vote in the poll...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Why is Akuma banned?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Since when is Mid Tier and below completely viable for tournament play?
People need to quit throwing absolute statements that are easily disproven around.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Is this in response to Spadefox, or Delvro?
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Amazing PLAYERS don't make amazing characters. Get that in your head.
Just because Xyro or boss play like young Gods with their Low Tiers, it doesn't mean that these characters are better.
Hell, here in Austria we have one of the best Lucas players, and he's one of the best Brawl players in the country. It still doesn't make Lucas better. His player is just able to overcome the character's weaknesses.
Mid Tiers are not completely viable. If they are facing a certain circumstance, they can be absolutely unviable in just the brink of a second. And that certain circumstance rarely is Meta Knight.
Spadefox. Delvro was smacking down a poorly chosen absolute statement.
No, Delvro was lying.
kackamee
Smash Master
It's been a year...And still most major tourneys top winners are playing MK. I say it's time for a ban. I haven't seen a person who has played a good MK that has won by a solid amount (if they've won at all) Metaknight is just an annoyance that will keep popping up until he is banned
And... How many different players have been winning these major tournaments? Have you even considered it might be the same person over and over again? Not just that, but if you check out all the major tourneys, the top placings (excluding #1) have been changing from player-to-player, character-to-character. Maybe most tourneys are being attended by the #1 player in the world, and he could have chosen said character for his main, ending up in most major tourneys with that same character at the top... And not just that #1 player, but maybe other top competitors at different tourneys! There have been major tourneys where the top spots aren't ALL taken by MK, thanks to the different top players who main different characters.
Or maybe you're right and every major tourney is won by a different person who uses MK. [/sarcasm]
Marth took most major tourneys (for two years, he took all major tournies) for, what, four years in Melee?
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
I agree that Spadefox was making a rather large general statement, but he was correct that Metaknight by himself doesn't make any one character nonviable for tourney. Delvro was incorrect according to almost every character board's MU discussion thread from C tier down. The only characters that for sure have Metaknight as their worst MU are Toon Link and Peach, and neither is considered tourney nonviable. The rest he either isn't the worst MU or he is tied with another character, making the loss of Metaknight to the competitive community a moot point in those cases.
Edit: Just to let you know, I'm not ignoring your comment Yuna. I just wanted to elaborate. Besides, if salaboB does have you on his (or her, sorry I don't know) ignore list, he/she won't see your response anyways.
One of the biggest issues in this discussion, and one of the reasons I'm not responding often to Yuna, is that people keep making absolute statements and then squirming around when they get called on them (Yuna never stops squirming, from my past experience trying to discuss directly with him), which only ends up with everything getting even more confused. I was simply calling someone for making yet another poorly chosen absolute statement that's not helping get anywhere in figuring things out.
Yes, I have made some myself during it. I'm working on that too.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
oh, now players like Tyrant win only cuz of MK right, then when Fiction beat his MK in BIO2 loser's final and Tyrant went DDD and won, what happened there? I though he only won matches due to MK...
and this has happened other times, like DSF losing with MK and then switching to DDD to win against RoyR at whobo or the finals at Fast1 were M2k used DDD.
if you can't beat MK, even if its random people, it's you who can't win, not your character, as you can see in the same example I've said before , Marth can beat Mk even if its a 65-35 match-up.
I could understand if MK ***** all the cast, but come on, he has LOTS of 6-4 match-ups, if any1 thinks that's unbeatable then that person just suck at the game/don't know anything about it.
It's not "unbeatable", it's "unfair advantage". Being fair or not matters for how competitive the game can be, randomness is an example of unfair (You lose for things not your fault)
Just pick this one character and everyone else is fighting uphill against you. That's not very good for effective competition to allow.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
No worries. I agree with you 100% that clarity is best, and I don't hold anything against you (or anyone else, for that matter). IDK about your and Yuna's conversations. Was there one thing in particular that you wanted to answered? I'm going to be off the boards for the next day or two, but if it is something I could answer I would be more than happy to do so. Just PM me your post if and when you make it.
As too your assertion in your post (you made it as I was writing this one) I would ask what fairness has to do with competition. I can't have a discussion about something like that unless I understand your reasoning. Snake, Marth, and Wario all have the same issue (being better than a majority of the cast), with the exception of one or two characters, and those are usually offset by higher gains than what Metaknight would have (aka, better MUs than Metaknight has against a few characters). These characters could also be construed as unfair, so I don't understand the reasoning.
Again, I apologize for not being able to get back to you immediately (I'm leaving as soon as I post this) but if the thread is still open when I get back I hope we can continue the discussion.
MK alone has every character against him either be even or an uphill fight for that character.
The other characters, while slightly unfair due to their overall advantages, still have some disadvantaged matchups to deal with. There is only one character in the game who gets away without that disadvantage, so it removes a lot of possible strategy in character selection to have that one character allowed -- he'll be the obvious go to character when you're worried about who your opponent might select and don't want to have to deal with them starting with an advantage. Otherwise you might have to look at the stage selected and choose which character of yours can best deal with your opponent's known characters to give yourself the best chance of winning. As it stands? Just pick MK, and you instantly are at worst even and at best at an advantage.
Is that really good for the competitive community?
Really, unfair is probably the wrong term since everyone can play MK. It applies if people are trying to play without choosing MK, and his unique matchups mean that puts them at an automatic disadvantage for not wanting to use this one character. Having Brawl's state be where you're noticably disadvantaging yourself by not having one specific character mastered is a problem, imo.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
^ And this scenario is why Meta Knight isn't dominating 100% of all tournament wins.
That bull****! All I've done in the past few days is reply to what you yourself have said. You've refused to reply in turn because, frankly, I just don't think you're able to refute my arguments.
I don't use absolutes. I only do it when I want to show how ridiculous it is to use absolute statements. Just because "your" side is using invalid arguments and getting destroyed for it doesn't give you the right to claim "my" side is doing the same and using it as some kind of excuse for my addressing my refutations of your arguments.
When I'm wrong, I admit to being wrong. I don't remember you ever conceeding anything. You just conveniently ignore the arguments you cannot refute.
Who's squirming, the guy who's actually replying to people or the one who refuses to reply?
Oh, how horrible. 60-40s! Unfair advantage! Quickly, ban!
No. But that doesn't make a character ban warranted.
If you can't handle how Competitive gaming works, go back to being a Casual player.
He left for Sirlin's forum (or whatever), wherever that is, because I was refuting his "We maximize Competitive viability" and "We maximize Diversity" arguments into the next forthnight.Where'd Eyada go? I miss seeing his posts.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
yea but he has those 60-40s (or better) on just about every character in the game with onyl 5 characters coming close to a neutral matchup also he breaks the cping system for stages his "worst" stage is final destination and thats only because he cant abuse anything there besides the ledges
Lol, Sirlin's forum is pretty easy to find.
And I'm willing to bet he had rebuttals to your arguments, but he hated your tone, so he stopped trying. No offense, but you were a bit cynical. On the other hand, did he have logical rebuttals to your arguments, no ideal.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
So.. What was Sheik in Melee then? cping characters like Marth and CF and remaining at least even with the other top/high tiers.
Now you may think... wow , that's not fair, Sheik has the best match-ups in the game. do we ban him because of that? NO. a ban is required when something BREAKS the game, neither MK or Sheik break the game in any sense since they are easily defeatable,and proof is that Marth, who does have a bad match-up against Sheik, was the one that dominated almost all tournaments for almost all the melee scene, and it's not because he's easier to play than Sheik, cause he isn't.
Why in brawl is the best character dominating when it wasn't in melee? because in melee there were very few elite players using Sheik and the best players in USA were Marth mains, and now the best players in brawl play MK.
if MK wins it's because most of the best players are MK mains, just like it was in melee with Marth.
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