Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[aeghrur]

Infinites are banned in Bum's region, when they aren't banned anywhere else. In fact, they're pretty much banned because of Bum.

I didn't know his statement said "Made DK unviable in all Infinite allowed tournaments"
I thought he just said Made DK unviable in all tournaments.

completely destroyed Donkey Kong's capacity to win high level tournaments

Cuz ya know, the worlds "infinite" and allowed" totally pop up in this sentence
>_>

 

[Red Arremer]

This leads to a question...

How many characters actually have their WORST machup being against MK?

2 in High/Mid Tier (aka viable Tiers): Marth and Peach.

ROB's worst matchup WAS once Meta Knight, but now it's Zero Suit Samus due to her Infinite.

 

[aeghrur]

Since you asked Spadefox, I will discuss M2K.
The guy is a beast a Brawl, but he needs to practice more melee and beat MANGOOOOOOOOOO again.
His MK is amazing, but I would personally like to see his DDD more, although I know he hates camping.
I also wanna see his diddy.

 

[Kage Me]

Dedede's overpresence in the metagame has completely destroyed Donkey Kong's capacity to win high level tournaments.

Discuss.

No he doesn't. If the standing infinite is banned, Donkey Kong does have somewhat of a chance. And it is usually banned.

 

[pure_awesome]

That's why he is ranked in third, right?
And that's why ROB still is ranked 9th in the character ranking list, far above Donkey Kong (like 17 I think).

But yea. Meta Knight destroys ROB and ... uhm... Marth a little bit.
Dedede's infinite makes 5 characters completely unviable. They can't do **** against it, either... except to not get grabbed lulz.

Mario, Samus, and etc. aren't unviable because of DDD. They're unviable because they suck.

The rankings list won't be an accurate source of information here, since it counts secondaries. For all we know every ROB main switched for the MK matchup, while the DK mains didn't. For some reason.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Well when I say: Shut him down; I don't mean make him a useless and forgotten character. I mean some people are just really good at reading other characters and are more skilled at breaking their game than others. As a personal example, I'm personally really great against Marths just because I've spent the majortiy of my time playing the game against Marth mains.

People need to experiment playing as Meta Knight to get a feel for his moves ,as well as play against Meta Knight mains more often to really get a feeling for how to react/counter certain moves.

:flame:
That's deep. I bet there are a handful of people on the antiban side that haven't even tried that, not just the proban. To beat your foe, you should know your foe. And to know someone well, it's good just to walk in his shoes. I wonder if doing so would allow even more of the "omg 60-40" uneven matchups to turn more even, and allow those that are even with him to figure out how to fully beat him.

And Spade is right. You just recently registered, and yet you're quite brilliant already. Cudos. Expect to see me appear every now and then. I like watching people that I can learn from.
:flame:

 

[Red Arremer]

No he doesn't. If the standing infinite is banned, Donkey Kong does have somewhat of a chance. And it is usually banned.

Oh? Really? I didn't know of that... Excuse me, I guess I can't hear you over my Infinite-allowing tournament rules.

Mario, Samus, and etc. aren't unviable because of DDD. They're unviable because they suck.

Luigi.

The rankings list won't be an accurate source of information here, since it counts secondaries. For all we know every ROB main switched for the MK matchup, while the DK mains didn't. For some reason.

Maybe because Meta Knight is not Donkey Kong's worst matchup? =O

Look at it this way: If a DK main switches to Falco everytime he faces a DDD in a high level tourney, he's fine. If a ROB main switches to Falco everytime he faces an MK in a high level tourney, he's a Falco main.

lol.

30-40% =/= 100%

 

[Yuna]

No he doesn't. If the standing infinite is banned, Donkey Kong does have somewhat of a chance. And it is usually banned.

If by "usually" you mean "genereally, in all of North America", then you are blatantly lying.

Untrue. DDD is not even close to popular enough to completely obliterate the validity of a character like MK does to ROB.

It's not like it's hard to infinite DK as D3. Just pick D3, set C-stick to grabs and C-stick-spam-buffer the infinite into next Tuesday.

Debatable.

Not really if you compare the tournament results, which obviously are the only things that matter!

 

[aeghrur]

Luigi

But... Luigi isn't unviable. O_O
Not in the least.

 

[pure_awesome]

edit in a second to stay on track

 

[Kage Me]

Oh? Really? I didn't know of that... Excuse me, I guess I can't hear you over my Infinite-allowing tournament rules.

Dedede’s infinite grab (op Donkey Kong, Bowser, Mario, Luigi en Samus) EN de CG met loopje is gebanned.

If it's in the recommended ruleset, I'd say it's usually banned.

 

[Red Arremer]

But... Luigi isn't unviable. O_O
Not in the least.

I said Luigi is viable. I gave him a counter-argument, lol. He said the Low Tiers, in response to me saying D3 locks 5 characters and makes them completely unviable. So I said the Mid Tier next to the High Tier.

 

[Yuna]

But... Luigi isn't unviable. O_O
Not in the least.

Luigi can be standing infinited by D3. Discuss!

 

[Red Arremer]

If it's in the recommended ruleset, I'd say it's usually banned.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230481

Some regions ban the use of King Dedede's standing infinite grab. Check with other tournaments in your area and make an educated decision on the use of the technique.

The Netherlands = "some region"
The Netherlands =/= Everywhere else

 

[aeghrur]

Luigi can be standing infinited by D3. Discuss!

He can mash out and not get grabbed.
Boss, discuss!

I said Luigi is viable. I gave him a counter-argument, lol. He said the Low Tiers, in response to me saying D3 locks 5 characters and makes them completely unviable. So I said the Mid Tier next to the High Tier.

Wait, what?

I said luigi is viable. I gave him a counter-argument, lol.

???
I thought it was like, he said low tiers were unviable cuz they sucked and you said Luigi was unviable cuz of DDD. O_O

 

[CRASHiC]

Luigi can be standing infinited by D3. Discuss!

Not until kill percentages.

 

[Yuna]

If it's in the recommended ruleset, I'd say it's usually banned.

Funny, I'm looking at it right now.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230481

Please point out the part of the recommended ruleset where it says that D3's infinite is banned. "Some region" = Certain cities in the U.S. and the Netherlands or whatever =/= Universally/Usually banned. In fact, the vast majority of tournaments do not ban it. Thank you, come again.

Not until kill percentages.

Oh yeah, I forgot. He needs to be jabbed inbetween. Well, he's only quasi-viable, anyway.

 

[pure_awesome]

Luigi.

Is only viable when your name is Boss and isn't even hit very hard by the infinite.

Maybe because Meta Knight is not Donkey Kong's worst matchup? =O

I figured you would gather that I meant "when he's facing DDD."


EDIT: This was supposed to go in the edit of the last... you know what, screw it.

 

[Red Arremer]

I thought it was like, he said low tiers were unviable cuz they sucked and you said Luigi was unviable cuz of DDD. O_O

Yes. He would be at least far more viable if there wasn't Dedede.

@pure_awesome:
Excuse me your slightly poor wording, don't act like I'm an idiot or something because of it. <.<

 

[CRASHiC]

@pure_awesome:
Excuse me your slightly poor wording, don't act like I'm an idiot or something because of it. <.<

I understood what he meant.

 

[pure_awesome]

Not acting like that. The only thing I've ever seen of yours that would make me think you weren't one of the smarter posters in GD is that fact that you would sig Yuna.

I just come across like that sometimes, probably because I use short sentences.

 

[Kage Me]

The Netherlands = "some region"
The Netherlands =/= Everywhere else

OK, perhaps I should've made it even more obvious. It usually is banned in my country, and thus Donkey Kong is viable in my country.

Funny, I'm looking at it right now.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230481

Please point out the part of the recommended ruleset where it says that D3's infinite is banned.

You're looking at the wrong recommended ruleset, dear. This is the one I was talking about.

 

[Red Arremer]

I understood what he meant.

Maybe it's cause I'm Russian. I tend to not be able to English properly.

Not acting like that. The only thing I've ever seen of yours that would make me think you weren't one of the smarter posters in GD is that fact that you would sig Yuna.

I just come across like that sometimes, probably because I use short sentences.

I've sigged many people, and that quote is just siggable.

You're looking at the wrong recommended ruleset, dear. This is the one I was talking about.

And that is universal... how?

 

[aeghrur]

Yes. He would be at least far more viable if there wasn't Dedede.

That's true. =/
He's not un-viable though. :o

 

[Yuna]

OK, perhaps I should've made it even more obvious. It usually is banned in my country, and thus Donkey Kong is viable in my country.


You're looking at the wrong recommended ruleset, dear. This is the one I was talking about.

Who cares about the Netherlands?! That is the recommended ruleset in the Netherlands.

Now, you might have included a quote of the Dutch recommended ruleset in there eventually, but you started out stating flat out that "[the infinite] is usually banned". Excuse us for not immediately assuming you were talking about the Netherlands.

And once again I have to ask: Who really cares about the Netherlands' recommended ruleset? And why isn't it banning any number of other infinites and quasi-infinites, such as ZSS infinite on R.O.B.? Biased much?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not really if you compare the tournament results, which obviously are the only things that matter!

Looking at the tournament results of both games, character viability ended somewhere in mid tier.

Then you get the characters in low tier that appeared once and a while, then you get the characters in bottom tier who almost never appeared unless Taj or Reflex piloted the characters.

I'm not seeing a difference between either game.

 

[pure_awesome]

I've sigged many people, and that quote is just siggable.

I would say that it is, that's true.

Still Yuna though. It's like if G.W. Bush said something funny. It's funny, but... it's still Bush.

That's true. =/
He's not un-viable though. :o

Put it this way:

If someone placed top 8 with Luigi at Apex or Genesis, everyone would flip right the hell out.

He's not unviable, but it's as far from viable as you're going to get without just straight being unviable.


Anyway, the ROB topic seems to have wrapped up nice and quick, sooo...

Despite MK not being Samus' worst match-up (I think), Xyro placed significantly higher at the last HOBO, which had MK banned, than he normally does.

Discuss!

 

[Yuna]

Looking at the tournament results of both games, character viability ended somewhere in mid tier.

Then you get the characters in low tier that appeared once and a while, then you get the characters in bottom tier who almost never appeared unless Taj or Reflex piloted the characters.

I'm not seeing a difference between either game.

Yes, but in Melee, there is generally more variety in the top placings of most tournaments. Instead of the odd Mid Tier once in a while, there's often characters all the way down to Mid Tier placing.

 

[Yuna]

I would say that it is, that's true.

Still Yuna though. It's like if G.W. Bush said something funny. It's funny, but... it's still Bush.

At least I back up everything I say with logic, facts and evidence (or I hace it in my back pocket should someone call me on it) instead of ignoring points which I cannot refute and resorting to blatant personal attacks instead!

But I guess we can't all be "pure awesome", now can we?

Despite MK not being Samus' worst match-up (I think), Xyro placed significantly higher at the last HOBO, which had MK banned, than he normally does.

Discuss!

Because whilst he's not her worst match-up, he's still a bad match-up. Also, maybe the non-MK players were just not that good against Samus, who is a very seldom played character. Xyro also happens to be the best Samus in the world (IIRC). Now if some of the previous HOBO's best players didn't go or had to switch mains because MK was banned, it stands to reason to think that the remaining skill pool was smaller than before at the top.

Also, maybe he just got lucky match-up-wise on his way to wherever he played. Without MK around, he stood a smaller chance of running into MK and there just weren't enough of Samus' really bad match-ups around to screw him over. This was a single tournament. If MK was permanently banned, people would flock to a new character, no doubt yet another character Samus has major problems with considering how unviable she is.

 

[Kage Me]

And that is universal... how?

There are no universal rulesets. The SBR one comes closest to universal, but that one just says "lol i dunno" regarding Dedede's infinite. So in absence of a proper universal ruleset, I based my statement on a national one.

And honestly, if a region doesn't ban the infinite, it consists of either *******es or obsessive "no johns" people.

 

[Red Arremer]

Despite MK not being Samus' worst match-up (I think), Xyro placed significantly higher at the last HOBO, which had MK banned, than he normally does.

Discuss!

The MK-banned tournament at WHOBO is not a good argument, just like WHOBO in general isn't a good argument.

Reasoning:
- Not all top-players who were there participated in the MK-banned event (M2K, to name the most prominent one).
- The MK players who DID join the MK-banned event played their secondaries. If everyone would play their secondaries, players like Dojo would've placed higher overall.
- The whole tournament lacked the top Non-MK-Players... but we already had that so often... Do I really have to bring it up? <.<

 

[Yuna]

There are no universal rulesets. The SBR one comes closest to universal, but that one just says "lol i dunno" regarding Dedede's infinite.

No it doesn't. Despite a long-winded debate, the SBR ultimately decided not to ban it. The fact that the ruleset does not ban it means it is not banned!

So in absence of a proper universal ruleset, I based my statement on a national one.

You still said "usually banned" despite the fact that this is a lie if you look outside, oh, the Netherlands and that one U.S. stage.

And honestly, if a region doesn't ban the infinite, it consists of either *******es or obsessive "no johns" people.

Or people who aren't idiots. I can't wait to see what the Dutch Brawl community will pull out next! A ban on every combo longer than 8 hits? Because there are so many BS infinites and quasi-infinite combos which render opponents unviable in Brawl I'm surprised the Dutch community hasn't already banned half of the game.

 

[pure_awesome]

At least I back up everything I say with logic, facts and evidence (or I hace it in my back pocket should someone call me on it) instead of ignoring points which I cannot refute and resorting to blatant personal attacks instead!

But I guess we can't all be "pure awesome", now can we?

Right. Just like how you used your facts and logic to back up Peach's air tripping, and MK's sword clanking, and Ganondorf's DownB giving him his double jump back.


@Spadefox:

WHOBO didn't have an MK-banned tourney, this was HOBO...17? Dojo used Kirby and still got pretty high. High enough that you would assume if he put some time into it, he'd probably be able to take it.

 

[Red Arremer]

WHOBO didn't have an MK-banned tourney, this was HOBO...17? Dojo used Kirby and still got pretty high. High enough that you would assume if he put some time into it, he'd probably be able to take it.

Then I mistook it, sorry. The argument still stands:
Not all of the best non-MK-players, the MK players were forced to use their secondaries, blahblah.

 

[Yuna]

Right. Just like how you used your facts and logic to back up Peach's air tripping, and MK's sword clanking, and Ganondorf's DownB giving him his double jump back.

I stated perfectly clearly in the Air Tripping topic that I had absolutely no confirmation that it existed for real and that I had never been able to replicate it after those first three times and that it might very well be something else entirely.

As for the sword clanking and Gdorf's Down B, oh noes, I was wrong on two facts because I don't know everything about this game! Woe is me! Why can't I be like you and be wrong about 75% of all things I say instead?

WHOBO didn't have an MK-banned tourney, this was HOBO...17? Dojo used Kirby and still got pretty high. High enough that you would assume if he put some time into it, he'd probably be able to take it.

Wait, doesn't that kinda make HOBO 17(?) an anti-ban argument?

 

[pure_awesome]

At least I back up everything I say with logic, facts and evidence (or I hace it in my back pocket should someone call me on it) instead of ignoring points which I cannot refute and resorting to blatant personal attacks instead!

As for the sword clanking and Gdorf's Down B, oh noes, I was wrong on two facts because I don't know everything about this game! Woe is me! Why can't I be like you and be wrong about 75% of all things I say instead?

Honestly Yuna, if I didn't have you around to make you jump through hoops like an angry tiger, General Discussion would be so boring.

Then I mistook it, sorry. The argument still stands:
Not all of the best non-MK-players, the MK players were forced to use their secondaries, blahblah.

Sure, but it's a controlled environment. Xyro was facing the same people he normally does, just without the possibility of MK, and did much better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes, but in Melee, there is generally more variety in the top placings of most tournaments. Instead of the odd Mid Tier once in a while, there's often characters all the way down to Mid Tier placing.

They didn't place that often.

In the early stages of Melee's life span they probably did place better. In it's late life span, it turned into Brawl's viability, if not slightly worse when people started to tier ***** more. In Brawl people are still tier whoring like they did in melee, only the process to reach the "whoring out" came faster since the competitive community from Melee came with it.

Realistically either game can have mid tiers look like they place as often as high or even top if people cherry pick tournaments. When I've seen people bring up viability people, people continuously try to cherry pick tournaments in Melee when Azen used Luigi or in Brawl when Ally used Captain Falcon.

It's still really subjective with viability when these factors come into account.

 

[Red Arremer]

Sure, but it's a controlled environment. Xyro was facing the same people he normally does, just without the possibility of MK, and did much better.

Because the Meta Knight players had to resort to their secondaries? If Xyro would've played a secondary (if he has one) instead of Samus, he probably wouldn't have placed as well as he did.

 

[pure_awesome]

Actually, the Metaknight mains did really well despite not being able to Metaknight it up.

1: Razer (snake/diddy)
2: Gnes (Diddy/dedede)
3: Phantom X (wario)
*4: Dojo (diddy/kirby)
5: Utd Zac (GW)
5: Hylian (GW)
7: FlipHop (diddy)
*7: Dphat (marth)
9: Espy (sonic)
9: Mr 3000 (Sonic)
9: Cy (wario)
9: Broly (marth)
*13: Romeo (falco/snake)
*13: Light (sheik)
13: Xyro (SAMUS!!!!)
13: Royr (marth)


Though to be honest now that I'm looking at the results, I'm more questioning Sonic's two top 9 placements than I am Xyro's Samus.

Btw, this is actually HOBO16, 17 hasn't happened yet as far as I know.

And to respond to Yuna seriously for a second (eek!), yes, I believe HOBO16 is a good argument for anti-ban, or possibly a good argument for a temp ban.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol@the last three or four 2v2 matches at ECRC having 3 meta knights