Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Matador]

SF4 = Brawl's brother.

These games are ridiculous campfests where defensive play is rewarded, whereas their predecessors are more fast paced and aren't as heavily into camping.

Sagat camps well. Hence, top tier. Seth camps better. Hence, broken. Admittedly, I'm no SF pro, but I can't be too far off.

 

[BentoBox]

Just to clarify what Spicy was saying, it's not Akuma doing air fireballs over and over at you in a trap that is so super unfair. I did test that with all 17 characters to see what they could do. The super unfair broken thing is blocked air fireball into raging demon that is inescapable...apparently 75% of the time, people say from testing. That's a straight up bug. When you jump into a raging demon, you can always jump out. If you are in hitstun and raging demon is pushing up against you, you can always jump out. But if you are in *blockstun* and it's pushing up against you, you can only get out about 25% of the time. Major bug there, as that one thing alone gives him tons of free damage that was never intended.

Spoiler

10Goukenishotwildfiya

 

[Zodac]

ban falcooo

 

[Emblem Lord]

SF4 and Brawl aren't alike.

One game was made to be competitive and that competitive scene is fully supported by the company that made it. It's also one of the more balanced fighters to come out in recent times. Seth and Sagat are beast mode, but they still have match-ups where they have to work for it and neither one is dominant.

The other one is Brawl.

Also defensive play is rewarded in all fighters and all games in general.

The more aggressive you are the more you leave yourself open. That's just how it is.

 

[Dekar173]

Seth is a boss character, he was essentially given some of the most useful options that each character has. Why not ban him? Broken is broken. His stamina is extremely low, but that doesn't negate the fact that yours may as well be too if you're playing against a good Seth. --a

 

[hundreds of utilts]

eh, im still riding the fence on this one.

but srsly, i heard everytime an mk dsmashes, somewhere a puppy dies.

think about that...

 

[Semifer]

I think we don't need any more "If we ban him, we should also ban someone else" - posts, because it's just not true, MK is the only Character who doesn't have bad MUs, so he's the only character with a very good reason to ban him.

 

[Brinzy]

That's flawed, Sebastian.

/too lazy to explain

 

[Tony_]

There are many people that are happy Akuma is gone.

Kindly, do not insult my knowledge or intelligence.

I NEVER thought I would say this, but play/watch Arturo's Seth and then tell me he isn't stupid.

I am sorry for that insult. I have been in an aggressive mood today for no reason really.

And more people are happy that Akuma got banned? The last time I kept up was like, Feb or Mar when people said "**** no, he is not ban worthy".

Watching now.

After watching...holy **** Seth can get rediculous. From anywhere.

 

[Dekar173]

It's not flawed, everyone brings up "omg we'll just end up banning Snake after this!!!"

Wrong. These are "slippery slope" statements, some of the most basic of logical fallacies out there.




"Omg, Stacy's gonna see that I don't have all of Fall Out Boy's music then she's gonna think that I don't like Fall Out Boy then she's gonna meet another boy who DOES have all of their CDs and think that he likes Fall Out Boy and then she's gonna fall in love with them and then she's gonna dump meeee!!!!!!"

Slippery slope. Because *******es think that way.

 

[Eddie G]

It's not flawed, everyone brings up "omg we'll just end up banning Snake after this!!!"

Wrong. These are "slippery slope" statements, some of the most basic of logical fallacies out there.




"Omg, Stacy's gonna see that I don't have all of Fall Out Boy's music then she's gonna think that I don't like Fall Out Boy then she's gonna meet another boy who DOES have all of their CDs and think that he likes Fall Out Boy and then she's gonna fall in love with them and then she's gonna dump meeee!!!!!!"

Slippery slope. Because *******es think that way.

Dur.

I'm pretty sure he was addressing Sebastian's second point. Read it again.

 

[Matador]

SF4 and Brawl aren't alike.

One game was made to be competitive and that competitive scene is fully supported by the company that made it. It's also one of the more balanced fighters to come out in recent times. Seth and Sagat are beast mode, but they still have match-ups where they have to work for it and neither one is dominant.

The other one is Brawl.

Also defensive play is rewarded in all fighters and all games in general.

The more aggressive you are the more you leave yourself open. That's just how it is.

One of the things I DO admire about SF4 is how balanced it is and how capcom caters to competitive players.

However, I was referring to how Melee and 3S seemed to be less about camping than Brawl and SF4 respectively. Defensive play will always be safer and the safer you are, the better you do. Brawl and SF4 seem to reward this more with less options for characters like Falcon or Honda who have weaker defensive games and less options AGAINST characters with good ones. It's so bad to the point where there's no reason not to camp since it's buffed so much. I'm no pro on 3S, but I know Melee had options for defensive and aggressive characters/players alike.

 

[Dekar173]

Dur.

I'm pretty sure he was addressing Sebastian's second point. Read it again.

I've seen too many people say "omg you'll all just want Snake banned after MK!1!1!1!1!!" in this thread to think otherwise.

 

[Brinzy]

You can be sure that I was not addressing you because his username, not yours, is in my post.

 

[Eddie G]

I've seen too many people say "omg you'll all just want Snake banned after MK!1!1!1!1!!" in this thread to think otherwise.

Did you follow my direction and read over the post again? He was not addressing the slippery slope portion of Sebastian's post, but rather the second half of Sebastian's post. Heck, maybe the whole post.

Anyway, yeah, slippery slope fallacy, yada yada. We already know.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, I'm just talking about the no bad match-ups thing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Meta Knight is less defensive and campy than several of the other good characters. I think it would be silly to think that Meta Knight camps more than Snake, Falco, King Dedede, Olimar, or Toon Link. If Brawl were really all about defense with no offense, Meta Knight wouldn't even be good. Seeing as it's probably a safe claim to say that Meta Knight is, in fact, good; it's probably a safe claim to say there is some degree of relevant offense in the Brawl metagame. Any theory about the situation that assumes no offense is probably bunk.

Also, about Seth in SFIV, um... where is the controversy over banning him? I checked the SFIV forums on Shoryuken, and I not only don't see any evidence that he's being seriously considered for a ban, but I don't see any evidence that he's generally considered the best character in the game (he seems to very consistently be ranked below Sagat, much like every other non-Sagat character). If you're referring to the Japanese, I was under the impression the Japanese mostly played in arcades where Seth and Gouken don't exist so I'm not sure we can trust them to evaluate fairly. If I'm missing something let me know, but Seth's legality in SFIV doesn't seem to be controversial or even a parallel case to Meta Knight (since Seth isn't agreed to be the best character by most people).

I'll respond to Eyada later. That's something that will take some time.

 

[Nic64]

I fixed it for you. To be fair, other characters can make use of planking, a couple can even make pretty good use of it. Nobody else can abuse it though. There isn't a character in the game that can't break rob or gw's plank game.

I'll agree on ROB because I don't think he's even one of the best characters at it but definitely not GAW.

 

[john!]

Just use Nair and Up-B with GW and you can plank like a master.

Btw, has anyone suggested that Metaknight just suicide the first stock each match? MK mains don't have to find a new character, but they start off at a disadvantage and even out the metagame. You could do it with Snake too, because he has his own tier.

 

[Jupz]

not sure if this has been brought up before, probably has - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html


MK shouldnt be banned imo

 

[Toby.]

Haha yeah Jupz its been brought up time and time again. Sirlin has been quoted many times in both pro and anti ban arguments

 

[Praxis]

not sure if this has been brought up before, probably has - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html


MK shouldnt be banned imo

Read the next chapter:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

It makes the excellent example of Old Sagat, which was banned in Japan despite not even being the best in the game for his affect on the metagame (but not US), and is established as kind of a baseline "Grey area" for banning.

MK is clearly worse.

 

[Nic64]

a soft ban isn't a real ban at all, though.

 

[Kage Me]

a soft ban isn't a real ban at all, though.

You're right. A soft ban is "allowed, but discouraged". Common courtesy will then do the rest.

 

[Jupz]

haha sorry I wasn't aware of that

 

[PK-ow!]

not sure if this has been brought up before, probably has - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html


MK shouldnt be banned imo

You were seriously not sure whether Sirlin had been brought up in almost four thousand posts of a ban discussion?

It's good for everyone to remember that sometimes Obvious Troll isn't a troll, but, dude. . .

c'mon, really? ಠ_ಠ

 

[BluePeachy100]

If you banned Meta Knight, wouldn't people start complaining about the second best character in the game?

 

[Alus]

If you banned Meta Knight, wouldn't people start complaining about the second best character in the game?

yes they would...

But at least snake has some reasonable weaknesses.

Unlike MK who can perfectly cover his own.

 

[BluePeachy100]

but my point exactly is where does it stop. The way they make it seem is that he's completely unbeatable, but I've seen the best MK players be in an even match against lower tier characters. All it takes is an adjustment to MK.

 

[Nic64]

People won't want snake banned, he might not even be the best character without MK. As for complaining about him, they already do, anything good gets complained about endlessly, welcome to the brawl community.

 

[PikaPika!]

You were seriously not sure whether Sirlin had been brought up in almost four thousand posts of a ban discussion?

It's good for everyone to remember that sometimes Obvious Troll isn't a troll, but, dude. . .

c'mon, really? ಠ_ಠ

Why should I know sirlin? The only time I heard about him was reading some little BS argument about banning **** in some other awful fighting game.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

but my point exactly is where does it stop. The way they make it seem is that he's completely unbeatable, but I've seen the best MK players be in an even match against lower tier characters. All it takes is an adjustment to MK.

I've beat a couple meta knights with trainer before (mostly charizard). Does this mean that Meta Knight isnt as good as people are making him out to be? No, the MKs just sucked.

 

[Alus]

Nevermind...-forget it... listen to Hilt.

but my point exactly is where does it stop. The way they make it seem is that he's completely unbeatable, but I've seen the best MK players be in an even match against lower tier characters. All it takes is an adjustment to MK.

If all it took was a adjustment to metaknight then everyone that learned the machup would just automatically win.

 

[BluePeachy100]

I've beat a couple meta knights with trainer before (mostly charizard). Does this mean that Meta Knight isnt as good as people are making him out to be? No, the MKs just sucked.

I didn't know m2k's Meta Knight sucked.

As my point in my earlier post, I've seen m2k, one of the best MK players being taken on, in even playing grounds with a non-MK player...

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I didn't know m2k's Meta Knight sucked.

As my point in my earlier post, I've seen m2k, one of the best MK players being taken on, in even playing grounds with a non-MK player...

Well sure. Several characters have 40:60 matchups against MK.
Even some lower tiers do ALRIGHT against meta knight.

edit: what do you consider "being taken on"? M2K being taken to the last stock? Or M2K having to struggle to keep that last stock? Because very rarely is the latter seen in a serious tournament match. I can only think of about three occasions off hand.

 

[yummynbeefy]

without him we would have so much more diversity just look at meta and non meta tourney results

 

[Master Raven]

I've beat a couple meta knights with trainer before (mostly charizard). Does this mean that Meta Knight isnt as good as people are making him out to be? No, the MKs just sucked.

Matchup experience may account for this too though.

 

[Kewkky]

I've beat a couple meta knights with trainer before (mostly charizard). Does this mean that Meta Knight isnt as good as people are making him out to be? No, the MKs just sucked.

If we all used that same analogy, then NinjaLink's victory over M2K is CLEARLY attributed to M2 sucking.

Or OverSwarm losing to that Sonic guy... CLEARLY OverSwarm sucks because he lost to Sonic, right?

[/sarcasm]

 

[gallax]

NL beating m2k is clearly attributed to NL being better at executing his game than MK. they both are excellent players. you are allowed to have off days.

you have to look at it by who is the better player, not who is the worse player.

and we have gotten a little off subject.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

>_> Nice going, genius. Why would you be near Mango? Admit it and follow my suggestions. If you can't be a good troll then don't be a troll at all.

Is this coming from the same guy who said the other day that flaming was bad and dosent support your side at all?