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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

Spife

Smash Master
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvGrWGUrf5o&feature=BFa&list=FLWHCXPl_FEgq4_cRw_jQ98A
critique?

at least the first two matches
this is a lil old but i want to see what you guys have to say
0:19 you guessed the roll in place, you had two options here though, hold him and backthrow him once the wind pushed you to the edge, yomi and dash attack for the kill

0:25 also you coulda grabbed -> gimp here

0:47 why did you wd here? And when you do this you put yourself a million years behind tech chasing so next time you try to follow up run up and wait (probably run up shield, because they're gonna either spot dodge or attack you)

0:57 that wd back utilt was wicked smart (even though he landed and shielded at the perfect spacing for both hits to tap his shield, but he spot dodges opening up for a grab), same as 0:19 here, if you guessed the tech away in either situation you could have run up dsmashed or dash attacked and winner would have been you

1:10 call everything else nitpicking, idc, but this stood out to me a lot. Fade back those defensive nairs (unless htis was offensive, and which case space those cause you landed RIGHT infront of his shield)

1:20 was really smart, at first I was confused why you stepped forward after he started side b, but it was to cover him shortening it (cause the shorten right to the edge was the hardest to cover) you still get the punish (idk how i feel about that second dair but I don't really dair mid combo so that's me)
also, in this whole sequence, this was the first tech chase that you've gotten on the edge (1 of 3), Idk what I'm trying to convey with this, I think it was a slip up on vanz part, he techs towards the edge twice and 100% of the time you don't capitalize, and then doesn't and get's punished lolol

1:40 why you throwin' needles when he's full jumping?

1:55 you run back in to punish an aerial wif. Now, I'm sure sheik can do this, but you got shined out of it, I can't say "run in and shield" cause it's not like a space animal commits to anything when they shine, i'm also sure this isn't the only time this happens

2:00 was the di intentional? Smart as **** (you di'd the nair up so he shined you off the ground and you converted what could have been a nasty combo into a grab)

2:20 why did you nair and why did it work? (legit question, i honestly don't know lol)

2:20 (and on) so you nair him and he's on the edge, you start zoning him out with a few bairs (he appraoches the second one then backs up) THEN you turn around, full jump nair, and you give him the rest of the stage to run to and laser camp

2:30 I assume this was suppose to be a dair, but if not, why the **** did you turn around dsmash? (again, legit question, I'm highly perplexed)

2:32 I guess dsmash was the "safe" option, but when/where he dj'd, you def had enough time to run off nair (and maybe throw some needles). Do you use run off nair for edge guards?

2:36 that nair was okay but if vanz had landed on the platform? fall through uair ez

2:40 the needle was good, upon further review you were like, 2-3 frames behind on that fair (literally), and just because I'm being nitpicky, ledge-hop bair would have been a better choice

2:55 I think you died here because you did the same thing last stock when you had to get off the edge, infact it looks like vanz full hopped just to wait out your roll animation

3:09 you got shined again for trying to punish a missed aerial

3:19 AWWW YEAH GOT THAT TECH TOWARD THE EDGE, except idk if regrab was your best choice

3:47 since you only had one needle, run off nair or dsmash was a better option

3:53 that nair felt so unsafe, like, if instead of dj'ing, if he had just flat out baired, you would have been dead

3:55 he shields here, instead of a full hop nair (which felt dangerous cause you were in the **** zone) you could have ran right out of the corner (unless he shield dropped). I guess fox might have been able to wd out of shield and caught you but you could have reacted to that. Lucky for you vanz just conceded the rest of the stage to you though >_>

4:28 if you had kept dashing you could have dsmashed or dash attacked the bounce




....I forgot how exhausting this is. I'll keep going if you want me to but I'm taking a break and going to bed right now :bee:
 

S l o X

Smash Champion
Joined
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bridgeport, ct
sheik *****

except vs fox i feel underwhelming in that matchup like 50% of the game. (see: until i get a grab or have them on a platform)
 

Sweet™

Smash Famous @PennStateSweet #SweetNation
Premium
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sheik *****

except vs fox i feel underwhelming in that matchup like 50% of the game. (see: until i get a grab or have them on a platform)
If you get a grab under a platform, just upthrow them. You can do a lot.
If they're at enough percent, you can follow their tech with a rising dair, and then fair them.
If they aren't at high enough percents, the dair will probably lead to a tilt combo, meaning more percent.
 

KirbyKaze

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Uair is better than dair vs Fox during that kind of setup because you can actually react with it instead of cover techs (uair is super fast)

Putting them on plats with u-throw is mostly a low % thing imo like around 21 (whenever uair knocks 'em over for fake crouch)
 

SUNG666

Smash Ace
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Ok question on Sheik's jab reset. Apparently if you jab twice for the reset they have to SDI both of them to get out? If that's the case, why would you ever jab once? (I guess if they were next to the ledge and double would be just enough for them to grab it while one would have them barely on the stage?)
 

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
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people who are really good at the SDI can get farther away on 2 jabs and escape completely
 

silentSWAG

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i thought fsmash instead of double jab would throw people off
but naww if they di the fsmash behind you they are out plus they gota a punish
i guess up tilt is great up smash too
i like dab > wait and either f tilt or dash attack
 

Gea

Smash Master
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The jab twice thing is to catch people who try to SDI up and DJ immediately out. It stuffs the jump. If they SDI back and react quickly enough they can get out. It's a frametrap.
 

Gea

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The best advice I can give you is watch M2K do it. I would think it's more of a % thing, but to be honest my knowledge of this ends with what I see. And what I see is that he jabs twice because any SDI put into the first jab will be canceled by the second jab since they are within so many frames of each other and I *think* the second jab has less KB as well. Hax could wait and SDI the second jab but then M2K could just jab once.

Sorry, saying it "stuffs the jump" was the wrong way of putting it. He doesn't get to the position he wants to in order to jump out.
 

KirbyKaze

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It's possible he's just screwing with Hax's DJ timing!




i thought fsmash instead of double jab would throw people off
but naww if they di the fsmash behind you they are out plus they gota a punish
i guess up tilt is great up smash too
i like dab > wait and either f tilt or dash attack
Yeah f-smash's 1st hit breaks the 7% rule that I know and love so I dislike using it. The gap between the hits is also big enough to enable people to jump out if they have a knee-jerk reaction to being hit by something like that out of non-tech, or even airdodge. Or just DI, which you noted.

I just u-smash or do goofy things but I understand that's not popular.

The jab twice thing is to catch people who try to SDI up and DJ immediately out. It stuffs the jump. If they SDI back and react quickly enough they can get out. It's a frametrap.
It's not stuffing the jump. It's more of a timing trap than a frame trap.

So I should be delaying the second jab quite a bit
Probably not as long as you think, but I don't recommend trying to literally hit Falcon out of his DJ with the second jab. If you were going to stuff a jump I recommend f-tilt, instant SH and reacting with fair, or calling it with a SH uair (but only if you're really confident he'll do it and the percent is right). I dislike jab for this 'cuz it has a slim hitbox and Falcon's DJ away is pretty decent.

Yeah, but I think the second hit could 'suck you back in'...
You're on the right track. Sort of. Kind of. Vaguely.

There is very little reason (at least in terms of how people are supposed to DI in the current DI metagame) for the 2nd jab to "suck anyone back in" because the standard DI patterns for Falcon when knocked over are to SDI or DI up (depends on percent) to escape the jab reset and f-tilt combos. DI away is also sort of commonish because Sheik.

That said, if it seems to give that effect it probably has to do with the opponent DIing down on both jabs (which, realistically, they have little reason to do - however, people are human so this sometimes happens; however, on DI down even a single jab would work and nobody DIs the first jab up and then the second one down to my knowledge because that defeats the purpose of DIing the first jab up). Another possible cause is that they got jabbed twice and they mistimed they jump or something (since most people don't mash the jump to my knowledge). As a result, they fall back into the grab.
 

Gea

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Why would the SDI get cancelled? Doesn't SDI happen per frame?
What I meant was that his control stick was going to already be pressing whatever direction he SDIs in from the first jab more than likely, so he won't get the same kind of movement from the second since he is focused on DJing/the next step. So he only gets the push from the first jab, the second will get normal knockback with whatever normal DI he is holding the stick in more than likely.

And yeah, I corrected my first post from "stuffing the jump." I'm obviously not communicating very clearly in this thread so I'll stop posting/shut up.

Though it is clear from the footage that Hax never SDI'd very hard to either side.
 

KirbyKaze

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That is such a voluminous question =/

Can you be more specific? I could go on for days about the whole subject since there's... a bazillion things Fox and Falco can do off their shine (damn their ridiculous transitions and numerous variations and viable timings on like everything).
 

bubbaking

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I find that, in general, a well timed nair OoS stuffs a lot of stuff from the spacees. However, sometimes when they've really got me under the pressure, I scrub it out and just roll. I figure I'll just take the 50% chance that the spacee guessed incorrectly and didn't catch my roll.
 

KirbyKaze

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Nair OOS is good vs almost everything

But loses to Falco's perfect shine grab, either space animal's rising aerial, and cannot be done between low aerial and shine

There's also a percent restriction (it needs to knock them down unless you're playing monopoly and know the risks) or they'll probably just take it and then punish you which sucks

Sheik's nair needs Peach's specs. Knocking over at like 25 is seriously so useful.



I don't like this topic so I'm gonna kill it or move it along (maybe into something better?) by giving a brief rundown

Basically

Shine > JC shine beats everything until it starts missing and then it loses to everything most of the time but Fox's is only a threat at the edge and jumping into a Fox shine is fine unless they're TAS

Shine > grab is aggravatingly safe by Falco; if you're not amazing at nair OOS (after his shine has staled down once or twice) then move out of the way (nair OOS vs shine grab is a serious number cruncher with Falco; a lot of things go into whether it works or not because it's super tight [the extra damage gives him more frame advantage] - Fox's shine grab is more lenient and loses to nair OOS much more easily; I think his lower grab hitbox also makes him whiff on SH more often but not 100% sure)

Shine > instant aerial loses to holding shield but watch for fades, especially by Falco - you don't wanna shield grab and give them a free hit because you thought it was safe. Reposition if they fade out of shield grab range... or needle OOS or something. Tons of stuff. Just don't shield grab like a scrub.

Shine > delayed aerial loses to nair OOS and if they're in a certain spacing then you can grab them out of the air but it's fickle vs Falco (Fox's jump is lower so it works more vs him)

That's the bare basics of it



A brief explanation of some other options:

WD OOS is amazing and helps reposition and punishes them for overextending (fairly) stationary pressure by giving you f-tilt, grab, or dash attack opportunities (they can action so pick your counterattack carefully; don't dash attack into a shield). Sheik's WD OOS is probably the best or 2nd best in the game so getting really good at it is not only recommended but almost mandatory.

Roll is great if they do a really aggressive aerial because of how long each action takes (ideally roll when you need the invulnerability or when moving through them will maximize distance and give you a lot of safety - see: rushing SH aerials and fades forward to chase WD away and such). Also good vs shine grab since it resets positioning (since grab cannot be followed if it whiffs). It's not bad for other evasive things but those are the two big ones.

Jump as a standalone is good (SH away) and shouldn't be overlooked. You can set up your fair spacing in shield if you find a good spot to jump away and not committing to the nair often enables really strong plays. FJ OOS has some merit under plats to WL and in other random situations. The main benefit of jump is that Sheik rises super fast during ascent which gives it some evasive properties. The downside is that it's easy to get stuck above spacies, which is horrible.
 

darkatma

Smash Hero
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Fixed my controller, so now I'll be playing sheik more again, maybe for apex if my sheik looks as snazzy as overtriforce's by then.

No questions at the moment, but I'm glad KK didn't quit the boards like he said he would. <3
 

Van.

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what level do you have to reach before sheik becomes fun? =/

oh well, if not fun she's at least good, so i'll prob go back to playing her
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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I dunno, I find Sheik fun. I don't get why she's meant to be a "boring" char. :/
 

soap

Smash Hero
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I enjoy how almost everything sheik does can combo into anything. You can combo quickly offstage into gimps, or you can hit them like five times and knock em off the top

Fox is the only other character with as much combo versatility.

Well, falco can shine off the top too. But fox and sheik can both do it easily from the ground or the air

My point is vertical finishers are pretty clutch
:phone:
 

SUNG666

Smash Ace
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What do yall do when a space animal is up b-ing up to the ledge for the sweet spot and you can't grab the ledge in time?

Almost everytime I run up and downsmash it doesn't work (I thought it did maybe I'm timing it wrong?) what options are there?

Also thanks for the help with my SDI jab question, I found that double jab into sh forward u air was pretty successful for me (although I still haven't tried many other followups)
 
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