Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[stelzig]

Sounds to me like you're doing a pivot. If you hold the direction a little longer, I imagine you'd solve your problem... Unless you can walk out of a pivot, but i've never heard of that.

 

[Salevits]

Hmm. I realized it might've been me not tapping the stick hard/fast enough sometimes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My Sheik is so sexy

 

[Wake]

Sheik is a horrible monster.

 

[KirbyKaze]

She's my horrible monster <3

 

[S l o X]

KK - what are peach's answers to sheiks ftilt and how do you beat those answers?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Crouch cancel.

Space better.

lolz.

Serious answer later.

Stream ft. me, Weon-X, Idea, Riddlebox, and Unknown from a local tournament lolz

 

[Tope]

peach fair will totally trade with sheik ftilt :D

kk da besssssss

cept vs falcon XD

nah, just the best all the time. I want to see play m2k again.

 

[KirbyKaze]

peach fair will totally trade with sheik ftilt :D

kk da besssssss

cept vs falcon XD

nah, just the best all the time. I want to see play m2k again.

<3 Topebear

Topebear is the best vs Falcon by a ton

I cannot currently hope to be as good as him vs Falcon

So instead I'll just do what I always sometimes do

Randomly beat a top level player and then lose to them in loser's bracket

 

[omgwtfToph]

I firmly believe that one day you will beat the same guy twice. And it will be glorious.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That it will be.

 

[Strong Badam]

kk i love you

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know. But we can never be. I would only end up hurting you.

With grab combos.

 

[silentSWAG]

poor donkeykong

 

[stelzig]

Think I'm starting to have shielddropping down pretty well, though I mostly practiced it against CPUs. I'm a little unsure if I can do it fast enough against stuff from below where I usually will have to tilt my shield to block the move first too (like against marth utilt). Anyone have a trick to this or do I just have to go back into neutral during shieldstun and then shielddrop?

 

[Vionce]

how much of dthrow tech chase on spacies is reaction or reading your opponent? If I wave dash back after dthrow, is it realistic that I would be able to react to anything they do?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

watch tope or m2k do it. You dthrow and if they DI away you either walk or wd forward, if they don't DI you simply wait for them to fall (after certain percents you can get tilts or dsmash directly from the throw if they don't DI away). From there you precede to react to their options. If they don't tech, you jab; if they tech in place, you grab; if they tech away or behind, you can boost grab or dash attack.

 

[Vionce]

i see. Thank you for the information.

 

[Kaffei]

watch tope or m2k do it. You dthrow and if they DI away you either walk or wd forward, if they don't DI you simply wait for them to fall (after certain percents you can get tilts or dsmash directly from the throw if they don't DI away). From there you precede to react to their options. If they don't tech, you jab; if they tech in place, you grab; if they tech away or behind, you can boost grab or dash attack.

I recall people being able to escape a jab reset by SDIing the jab up into an aerial or something
Do you know what % this starts at and what I should do instead of a jab?

Also I have a question for anyone who knows frame data: Does Sheik's f-air ever have frame advantage on block?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm not sure of the exact percent, but it is different for each character. It starts low, I believe i've seen people escape in the mid teens. There are other things you can do if they SDI, though. Kels ftilts immediately after the jab and combos from there.

 

[Pinkie Pie]

In one of Drephen's guides, he mentions using up+B when being pillared by Falco. But I haven't really seen this being done effectively. Any comments on this?

 

[Teczer0]

That.... Sounds like a bad idea LOL.

It's more conventional to nair OOS

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're frame-safe --> roll, wd, hold block

If they're not --> nair oos, shield grab, wd

There's more to it than that (positioning and stuff are important) but that's the gist of it

Holding shield to "scout" for what style of pressure they're doing is also good, but leaves you vulnerable to shine-grab

 

[joejoe22802]

How do i make it so falco feels like they can't move.

 

[john!]

grab the falco

 

[KirbyKaze]

Get close enough so they can't laser safely and then put it in their butt.

 

[BSeeD]

I HATE FKN FLOATIES.
OK, that is said.

I'll have some matches I'll post up soon for you to comment, I played with Infernum yesterday, and even though I played him for nearly 7 years now, I can't get a proper strategy to fight those fkn floaties.

Against Puff I just walk around trying my best to get under him while he's trying to wall me, but all I can get If I get there is one hit, two hits tops and then I get ****ed.
And it's like impossible to edgeguard properly.

Against Peach, well, I hate Peach. I feel like I'm doing better on Peach than on Puff, but get ****ed/gimped/whatever leads to death way more at the same time -_-
Plus, I'm way better against Peach with Falco than with Sheik, as I can take some space control and lead the pace of the game more easily, but I feel like I should be more confortable with Sheik...

Any raw advices ?
More in depth, like some tips to get that grab, some **** to do out of tech chase etc...
Basically the more efficients way to add % early/mid, then I know how to get a kill.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

what am i doing wrong ?_?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMaVei5Gn3Q

 

[omgwtfToph]

Your first mistake was in thinking you have a chance against the almighty zzzzzzZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAhhhHHhHhHhhHHUUUuuoOOOooooUOUuoOUOUUoU@#%OU#O#)*%)#@%#@R)FKWADSD LM

edit: umm but seriously it seemed like your technical game could've been better. i.e. you had crouch cancels that you didn't do anything with, and your oos game seemed to involve a lot of rolling and just holding shield. Try nair oos more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I swear if most Sheiks just improved their technical skill (moving fluidly [and with a high degree of control], moving quickly [includes oos], control over their momentum, better spacing, grabbing the edge quicker, being able to reverse needle store for offensive edgeguards with bair, consistent short hops on command [includes on oos stuff]) then a lot of them would start beating people they're currently losing to just because then they'd be way faster, harder to hit, do more damage ON hit, better out of shield, and have better edgeguards.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

KK we're too lazy to be as consistent as you man. Practice is the reason I play sheik haha.

You are completely right though. It is frustrating how many hits I take are because I don't react OoS quickly enough, or I do a full hop nair and get punished, etc.

But my consistency was on the up and up until I didn't play this week. Even starting to get those upsmash combos.

 

[omgwtfToph]

kk coming with the real talk

Us Fox mains should form an alliance with you sheik guys sometime. We're all way too technical and lose because we try to be idiots with our techskill. We should all fuse a la Dragon Ball Z and become unstoppable monsters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

10 characters

 

[BSeeD]

How to get ignored in 1 lesson XD

Nevermind, I'm keeping what u posted in mind, KK.
I guess people tend to forget that sheik is easy only @the earliest stages of the competitive scene, but becomes wayyyy harder when u wanna be very good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Against Puff I just walk around trying my best to get under him while he's trying to wall me, but all I can get If I get there is one hit, two hits tops and then I get ****ed.
And it's like impossible to edgeguard properly.

Welcome to the Puff MU. This MU emphasizes a ton of movement techniques because ground & platform mobility are two of your biggest strengths over Puff. Shield > WD oos is therefore invaluable in this one. Being really good at movement around the stage is important so you don't get cornered. Dash > WD, WD > dash, and wavelanding are all really important techniques to have at your disposal.

I'm not really sure what kind of help you're looking for because, yeah, you can't really combo Puff that much. I do have a few tips to help your damage output though.

At low percents: I like to run around the platforms from 0-20ish because if you can bait her into attacking into your needle spray area (Puff needs to be airborne) when you're on a platform then you can do aerial needles > run off fair > another move (sometimes f-tilt, sometimes nair, sometimes something else entirely - it depends) at low percents and sometimes get a decent air combo going but that's about it for heavy punishments.

A good general piece of advice is to keep needles stored at all times because they open up options like needles > d-smash, needles > d-tilt, etc. A generally good, underutilized tactic is to combo your stray hits into needles. Throwing your needles at Puff after hitting a stray SH FF Fair or whatever can add an extra 10-18% to her, which is dandy. You'll likely have opportunities to charge needles in this MU because of Puff's defensive style (and because you will be batting her away periodically).

In a similar vein, against exceptionally defensive Puffs, if they space so far that they're landing without being close enough to hit you, it can be worthwhile to shoot needles at him as they're landing. You can rack up damage this way.

Chain is actually decent under platforms if used sparingly and you retract it quickly after hitting it.

At about 90% you can dash attack a crouching Puff and combo into up air for the KO because the crouch reduces the KB of the dash attack to enough that you can up air and KO. Dash attacking through Puff at like 50%+ is a reasonable play because it knocks her over and you can tech chase her. You have to space to land very far behind her, though, and this is still kind of risky. Use sparingly. Down smashing a crouching Puff is also a decent thing after like 40% to push her away (it's great if you can push her onto the edge).

Edgeguarding Puff is hard. Throw needles if you can. Ledgehop Nair stage spike them if possible because Puff players are notoriously bad at teching. Needles > fair offstage works often. This is all vs the low recovery. Against the high recovery just try to stay under her and see if you can bair her. Don't get baited by Pound's monster priority and wait it out. You really shouldn't get successful edgeguards on Puff very often, but on low recoveries it's feasible sometimes.

Against Peach, well, I hate Peach. I feel like I'm doing better on Peach than on Puff, but get ****ed/gimped/whatever leads to death way more at the same time -_-
Plus, I'm way better against Peach with Falco than with Sheik, as I can take some space control and lead the pace of the game more easily, but I feel like I should be more confortable with Sheik...

Peach is just footsies and there's a lot of gobbledygook regarding the shield game because Peach's shield is good and her pressure is good.

For combat:

Fair, bair, aerial needles > grab combo, and grab are your main tools. F-tilt and d-tilt are also good. D-tilt is mainly for swiping under nairs and bairs. F-tilt beats or trades with things because it's f-tilt. Don't limit yourself to just these tools, but they're the main ones you should be using.

If she's on the ground, all of the above is good (except the tilts). Just be careful because she's likely going to try and dash > crouch to make your spacing bad on fairs so she can down smash. Or WD back d-tilt so she can ruin your spacing. Or dash attack under you. Being aware of these options will allow you to tweak your spacing accordingly. Generally I think bair (as a move), fair (as a move), and empty jump > wavelanding away from her ground game good actions if you're unsure what to do. You can also just maneuver the ground if you want and look for grabs vs her ground game (which is also a very good, very safe course of action). Her ground game is pretty vulnerable to shield play minus the low float aerials (her grab range sucks and if she misses you get a free move so keep that in mind and WD back OOS a lot to bait her into trying to grab it and other stuff like that).

If she's in the air, use your bair. If she's at a height where f-tilt works then do that. If you can fair her out of her float into f-tilts then that's recommended. If safety is your concern then bair is probably the best thing vs an airborne Peach.

In terms of combos on her:

0-20% CG if she DIs away (you must JC grab) - After 20% try to get F-tilt > Fair (not a true combo; you kind of space the Fair to beat her Nair). You could also do something gimmicky like FJ Fair > falling needle and see if you can get a regrab, which sometimes works. I've done SHFFL Nair > Fair before as well, but that's obviously DI dependent. SHFFL Nair (or Fair) both open up opportunities to continue pressuring. You can d-smash to follow sometimes (can beat combo-break Nairs), shoot needles, or simply apply pressure with movement (and look for Nairs, air-dodges, etc. you can dash dance grab). Plenty of options.

Otherwise up tilt > up airs / fairs (0%) and then follow from there (blocking their combo-break Nair and shield-grabbing it counts as a follow, but if they float away obviously this doesn't work). After like 20% just up air combo if they DI elsewhere.

To get grabs when you're on offense you basically want to pressure Peach into blocking (spaced aerials are excellent at this!) or doing a bad crouch down smash and then work from there (spaced aerials are also excellent at this!). You can also dash dance grab or whatever. Needles into grab is also good for punishing them being stationary.

To get grabs when you're on defense is tricky because her pressure is crazy good. That said, you can shield grab the jabs. You can also WD OOS grab her for d-smashing your shield (provided it doesn't pierce). However, there are certain conditions that affect your ability to do this and I don't wanna write it out. Instead, I'm going to suggest you WD OOS down (or forward VERY slightly) and wait for stuff like a 2nd d-smash, jabs, or sidestep that Peaches like to do after the down smash and punish that instead. If you're good out of shield, then by all means punish her immediately. But most aren't and it kind of depends on how many times she hits your shield. You can also jump OOS and try needles > grab if you have some stored.



I play Fox and Sheik both at high level (Sheik much more than Fox, but I have some experience with the fuzzball). Assuming you have the tech skill down for both characters, I think they're about equally difficult to actually play. Fox is harder to learn, though.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I've been watching some KK videos today and I've realised these are his goals when playing:

1. Killing with U Smash.
2. Winning.

...in that order.

Luckily, the first goal is conducive to the second.

 

[Wake]

The upsmash kills ARE pretty sexy though, not gonna lie.

 

[Kaffei]

I swear if most Sheiks just improved their technical skill (moving fluidly [and with a high degree of control], moving quickly [includes oos], control over their momentum, better spacing, grabbing the edge quicker, being able to reverse needle store for offensive edgeguards with bair, consistent short hops on command [includes on oos stuff]) then a lot of them would start beating people they're currently losing to just because then they'd be way faster, harder to hit, do more damage ON hit, better out of shield, and have better edgeguards.

Should I aim for character control like M2K's

 

[Nedved]

I swear if most Sheiks just improved their technical skill (moving fluidly [and with a high degree of control], moving quickly [includes oos], control over their momentum, better spacing, grabbing the edge quicker, being able to reverse needle store for offensive edgeguards with bair, consistent short hops on command [includes on oos stuff]) then a lot of them would start beating people they're currently losing to just because then they'd be way faster, harder to hit, do more damage ON hit, better out of shield, and have better edgeguards.

Ok.
I'm gonna do this.
Going to stay home till i'm good enough. :D

By the way, does someone have any tips to train with Sheik ?

The fact is, if I want to train Fox or Falco, to get more techskill, I can waveshine across stages, reproduce some crazy stuff we see in SilentWolf videos, this kind of stuff. It gives something to do and it helps.
But with Sheik... :/

 

[Lukahn]

Reverse needle edgehog without jump.