Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[S1 The God]

So, I main fox but I have a pocket sheik that I'm working on for some matchups I don't like with fox...

Any solid tips against Peach?

 

[Tope]

I really like to challenge Peach in the air with nair and kind of body slam her, although it isn't nearly as effective as spacing bair or fair, nair can be useful just because of how quickly you can be on her imo.

I've found fair to shield is especially effective against samus.

KK did you get a chance to play plup? kid is damn good.

Matchup's to play sheik in because she does better than every other character

Falco (Goes about even with Marth as well)
Falcon (Utterly dominates along with Fox)
Marth (Hands down the best but CF can give him trouble)
Samus (Same as above)
Any other character lower on the tier list than samus.

Characters where picking up a secondary may be effective.
Fox (Marth or Falco)
Peach (Marth or Captain Falcon)
Ice Climbers (Peach or Fox OR Captain Falcon [Marth is playable here too, but you have to play the matchup up kind of like a robot IE fair/dtilt exclusively]
Jiggly Puff (Any)


Sheik has the tools to handle any of these characters effectively, it may just take slightly more effort to win than the characters in parenthesis.

 

[S l o X]

I agree with most of those. I honestly don't think picking up another character for Peach is "effective". Falcon - Peach is probably 55-45 and I think Sheik definitely has a bigger advantage than that or maybe the same #s. I also think Marth - Peach might be more even than Sheik - Peach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really like to challenge Peach in the air with nair and kind of body slam her, although it isn't nearly as effective as spacing bair or fair, nair can be useful just because of how quickly you can be on her imo.

I've found fair to shield is especially effective against samus.

KK did you get a chance to play plup? kid is damn good.

Yeah I like to nair her too sometimes. I like nairing through aerial turnips they've thrown too close to me and then comboing nair --> fair. It's really good, especially if you can pin them at the edge and do it.

Unknown tells me to just shield against Samus and space bairs. Treat her like Peach, basically, but without the godlike shield pressure. I'm not entirely sure how to go about spacing against her though. I'm gonna try to treat it like Luigi next time and just stay outside of her longest ground move's range and see if I can bait & punish things from there. I really wish I could play against high level goofy characters all the time. I feel I wouldn't have such a weakness to AXE's Pikachu and various others. Oh well. I guess I have to hit the smash lab and/or adapt quicker. This game is hard.

Plup beat me by 1 stock in the single friendly we played. He's very good.

When using Sheik as a secondary, I endorse the use of her against every character but Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers. Not because those MUs are so bad Sheik can't win but rather because if you're maining any other character in the top eight or so, they probably have a better MU against those two than Sheik does (or about the same, in which case you might as well play your main anyway).

 

[Kaffei]

Why can't I find the video of KK beating Hungrybox in winner's

Oh also KK, should I always boost grab when tech chasing?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tech roll - yes
Tech stand - no
Non-tech - hell no

 

[Kaffei]

Tech roll - yes
Tech stand - no
Non-tech - hell no

ty ty so much

 

[Mr. Sandbag]

I've read the match-up guides against Fox, Peach, and dittos numerous times, tried adding the suggested tactics to my play style.

Nothing seems to be really working. I've tried jab resets but I can't get the hang of them. On top of that, I can't really try anything new without being completely obliterated.

I guess my main problems are:
Peach - I get d-smashed too much, and end up CCing almost all the time, and even when I DI away, I end up getting gimped terribly.

Fox - I get gimped with shines way to much. I rarely can get on the stage without being u-smashed or falling u-aired. I've try KirbyKaze's guide to avoiding u-throw u-airs, but apparently I can't smash DI correctly, or so I'm told.

Dittos - I get jab reset a lot and don't really know how to avoid this.

I'm at a loss. Sorry if any of this was mentioned in the thread. I'm trying to read as much of it as I can.

 

[Kaffei]

What beats spacies' bair/nair? Sheik fair and bair?

 

[L__]

wd back

 

[S l o X]

when it comes to grabs, what is preferred? i never dash attack cancel grab. not sure if it's better than jc grab. (i jc grab with every other character on habit)

idk i feel like all my questions are confusing / not even questions. can someone post basic info on sheik grabs / quote an old post?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

If you are catching someone out of a dashdance with your grab, it is best to boost grab as it has the furthest range.

For techchases on spacies:
Non-tech: Jab-reset-->grab, or jab-->upsmash, d-smash, f-tilt
Tech in place: walk forward grab (JC or normal), stand in place grab (JC or normal), or turn around grab (JC or normal)
Tech roll: boost grab or dash attack if over >35-40%

EDIT: Sandbag you need to be more specific with your problems. It looks like you are relatively new, and there is only so much you can learn through reading it. A lot of knowledge comes from playing and picking up on what works and what doesn't. Against fox make sure you have run forward --> WD back down perfectly. Against peach, you need to know how to wavedash out of shield in order to be successful, which is true against any player now.

 

[L__]

boost grab when you wanna throw someone off with some extra range id guess

like when someone is dash dance camping and you just wanna go in but theyve been telegraphing your grounded approaches

 

[Mr. Sandbag]

I've been playing for a little over a year now. My tactics have just gotten a little too predictable.

I guess my main thing is, is how do YOU guys personally play them?

 

[L__]

Nothing seems to be really working. I've tried jab resets but I can't get the hang of them. On top of that, I can't really try anything new without being completely obliterated.

keep practicing them imo the strength of jab resets vary on a person to person basis since not everyone is good at sdi'ing the jab. when you can't jab reset their missed techs you can usmash which leads into regrabs at low %s, tilts, etc.

I guess my main problems are:
Peach - I get d-smashed too much, and end up CCing almost all the time, and even when I DI away, I end up getting gimped terribly.

i'm not the best vs peach so someone else is definitely going to chime in with more exp. but what I tend to do is try to get needles because they helped me a bunch with the peaches I've played as sheik (mainly referring to needle grabs for ez combos)

Fox - I get gimped with shines way to much. I rarely can get on the stage without being u-smashed or falling u-aired. I've try KirbyKaze's guide to avoiding u-throw u-airs, but apparently I can't smash DI correctly, or so I'm told.

probably my more experienced mu as sheik. if I can, I'll avoid making the first attack since sheik's approaches are relatively easy to be telegraphed. do your best to bait their nairs/dair approaches and punish them with wd back dash attack/grab idk. when I'm on their shield I tend to throw out various moves to see how they react to them and try to condition them then bait them for it. also learning how to not overcommit feels important since small slip ups tend to lead into fox players being able to cc your attacks/shine small gaps. dont forget that empty hopping/wavelanding occasionally is also a powerful tool.

concerning recover it's mainly up to you to position yourself in the midst of recovering to give yourself as many options as possible instead of pigeonholing yourself into the recovery route with the least amount of options UNLESS YOU HAVE A GUARANTEED WAY TO MAKE IT BACK THROUGH THAT OPTION (ex. recovering super low vs falco in order to tech a spike or dsmash but at an angle that lets you get on if they just chill on the ledge)

Dittos - I get jab reset a lot and don't really know how to avoid this.

you're going to need to get more field experience and get ***** more by jab resets so you can get used to the timing for smash di'ing out

since we're on the topic can someone tell me when the earliest possible % for sheik to sdi jab resets in dittos?

I'm at a loss. Sorry if any of this was mentioned in the thread. I'm trying to read as much of it as I can.

don't get too focused on the theoretical aspect

 

[Kaffei]

wd back

I mean Sheik's moves vs Spacies' moves

 

[gm jack]

You can't always win. Sheiks ground speed is a huge asset.

That said, depending on the angle, her fair and bair should win, but they can be baited out and punished, so ground movement is a very safe way to punish them (also cc at low percents).

 

[Jolteon]

her aerials will win if you space properly

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've read the match-up guides against Fox, Peach, and dittos numerous times, tried adding the suggested tactics to my play style.

Nothing seems to be really working. I've tried jab resets but I can't get the hang of them. On top of that, I can't really try anything new without being completely obliterated.

Something important to understand about implementing new tactics:

You're not going to get better IMMEDIATELY during the process of implementation. Why? Because you're adding new things to your gameplay and you don't know exactly how it works, where it works, etc. You're not as familiar with the new tactic as you are with your old tactics. So even if the new tactic is better, you've got a better mastery of the old stuff and will probably perform better with it (for the time being).

When you're adding something new to your gameplay, it's a learning process. You are going to play below your actual ability. It will pay off once you gain some competence with the new technique, strategy, or whatever it is (provided it is something that is worth mastering) but in the short term it will seem like your skill has decreased (unless it's a super extreme case like someone not f-tilting with Sheik suddenly starts using f-tilt or whatever).

It gets easier to apply new tactics as you get better because you'll have had more experience doing it, and better general understanding of the game. So that's something to look forward to.

I guess my main problems are:
Peach - I get d-smashed too much, and end up CCing almost all the time, and even when I DI away, I end up getting gimped terribly.

I unfortunately cannot help you much except say that DIing up is better than "away" on her down smash, and that you generally shouldn't be crouching when you're that close in proximity to Peach. This is one of those problems where the only real remedy is to just focus on recognizing where you can and can't crouch vs Peach and... doing it. Work on it.

Fox - I get gimped with shines way to much. I rarely can get on the stage without being u-smashed or falling u-aired. I've try KirbyKaze's guide to avoiding u-throw u-airs, but apparently I can't smash DI correctly, or so I'm told.

Are you up+Bing too close to the stage? Mixing up attacking, not attacking, moving away from the stage, etc. Air-dodge is incredible.

SDI is very difficult. I would suggest you focus more on just doing proper normal DI on his combos (down & away vs Nairs, DIing the throw to the side, etc) so you can protect yourself from his basic stuff and avoid taking more than 40% from a single sequence (unless he gets a read).

Most people screw up SDI because they do it too early, in my experience. If you want to continue trying to apply SDI, that might help. Also, making a quarter-circle motion (rather than tapping to the side) creates a bigger window for SDI inputs to register so that's also worth trying. My guide is actually outdated in that respect so I might make a new one.

Dittos - I get jab reset a lot and don't really know how to avoid this.

Hold up when you're on the ground and have missed a tech? Alternatively, just hit your techs? No offense, but some of these answer themselves...

I'm at a loss. Sorry if any of this was mentioned in the thread. I'm trying to read as much of it as I can.

Meh. Some of these are really general. The SDI question is good, but the one on teching & Peach down smash kind of answer themselves (you actually kind of infer what the answer is on the Peach one, you're just not having success with it yet).

 

[gm jack]

her aerials will win if you space properly

But her SH is so long that jumping to prepare to beat them out can be baited and punished if they do almost anything but jump at you, such as running up to CC-> **** instead.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Her aerials beat things if they're spaced properly. Fox is good at not letting people space properly. Why? Because he's Fox Mc-Freaking-Cloud.

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks guys lmao

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think evade-punish with grab or dash attack and beating his moves with f-tilt, bair, fair (d-smash, up air, and up tilt are also usable but the three not listed in parentheses are the staples) is how you beat Fox for the most part. Shield game is also important (a good mix of nair OOS [I'm in love with it again], WD OOS, roll). With those two things and a strong punish game, the MU is pretty even. Fox actually matches Sheik for gimping potential at high level, I think. But Sheik (played properly) should be doing more damage with her combos IMO.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Quick question on how to best nair OOS: should I be trying to slide my thumb from Y to A or do you try to individually press each button as quickly as possible? I feel like the former is faster, but then sometimes I get a full jump instead of a short hop.

 

[Tope]

I agree with most of those. I honestly don't think picking up another character for Peach is "effective". Falcon - Peach is probably 55-45 and I think Sheik definitely has a bigger advantage than that or maybe the same #s. I also think Marth - Peach might be more even than Sheik - Peach.

I would agree, as long as you aren't playing PAL.

 

[gm jack]

Quick question on how to best nair OOS: should I be trying to slide my thumb from Y to A or do you try to individually press each button as quickly as possible? I feel like the former is faster, but then sometimes I get a full jump instead of a short hop.

I use Z for the nair, which makes it a lot easier.

 

[soap]

I use Y to A. Press each button. It goes tap, tap, real quick. Less error than sliding for me.

Z is a gross button. (but I still use it to grab)

 

[stelzig]

X to A.

Screw Y and Z!

Shielddropping is amazing btw. At first I didn't think it would really help much, but after using it and trying to implement it a little, I definitely have changed my mind.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik's jump is as fast as Fox's. If you really want to get your tech skill down, try practicing with fox instead of sheik. Eventually this will make your hands much faster than they need to be in order to play sheik and so you will end up being more consistent. Whatever buttons you use are up to you; there's no right or wrong answer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Do y'all ever switch to Zelda lol?

 

[stelzig]

To kill puff when she misses a rest at the right percent. I've considered doing it against single climber when i'm at low percent to avoid getting chaingrabbed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wouldn't ever transform to kill puff except maybe on FoD. Charged usmash killed puff decently low and isnt effected by DI as much

 

[Jolteon]

Just for recovery. Maybe I'd switch to her for a toe ko to punish certain rests (say, jiggs is near the edge on yoshi's at killing percent), but otherwise I wouldn't bother.

 

[Kaffei]

Zelda has better aerial mobility than Sheik so if you get hit really far out, but you're high up, you can turn into Zelda and have a bit of a horizontal boost

That's what I've seen M2K do at least

 

[stelzig]

I wouldn't ever transform to kill puff except maybe on FoD. Charged usmash killed puff decently low and isnt effected by DI as much

Posts like this makes me wonder if the talk about sheik usmash being more powerful in NTSC is actually true. Guess i'll have to go test that later.

Kaffei: The one time I tried to do that I just got knocked out during transformation lag when I wanted to go back to sheik and jump. Maybe I did it at the wrong time or maybe it doesn't work against all characters... At least not to get close enough to avoid having to UpB.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVfVQcojS34#t=8m45s

 

[stelzig]

116% on dreamland doesn't really surprise, though I guess he did die rather convincingly. I'll go test it for myself soon. If I can find my NTSC copy i'll even compare

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its no fox usmash, but a charged one kills at like 80% on most stages.

 

[stelzig]

It seems to kill at 80% on dreamland in PAL (no DI) as well. Gonna go back to doubting that there is a difference here then

I still think switching to zelda can be useful sometimes, but maybe not when puff is in the middle of the stage. Has worked for me all the times I tried and wasn't sure usmash would kill anyway

Edit: More precisely, it seems to kill at 76% (no DI)

 

[Kaffei]

Posts like this makes me wonder if the talk about sheik usmash being more powerful in NTSC is actually true. Guess i'll have to go test that later.

Kaffei: The one time I tried to do that I just got knocked out during transformation lag when I wanted to go back to sheik and jump. Maybe I did it at the wrong time or maybe it doesn't work against all characters... At least not to get close enough to avoid having to UpB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-NlbzemgT0#t=3m12s
I think you're right cus shroomed could have thrown a pill or done a WD off>bair to hit m2k out of transformation
I dunno LOL