Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Mr Wizzrobe]

If I get time tonight I'll go through the whole thing.

 

[-Vocal-]

I land a grab on CF at low percents facing a ledge. What do I do? Things I've tried:
1 - DThrow > Tilt ****. This one ignores the ledge and just uses the throw to rack up tilt damage, which I've seen work great at low percents.

2 - DThrow > FTilt > Fair. This is the basic throw combo I've been using most often, as Dthrow to Fair directly doesn't seem to work.

3 - Dthrow > Jab > Dsmash. If they aren't expecting the jab, it seems like this is a goo way to get them offstage at a bad angle for them.

4 - Fthrow > Run off aerial. This one I've had trouble figuring out. I've tried runoff > second jump Nair which works sometimes, but usually only if they alreay have some damage on them. I've also tried runoff > Fair, but it has rarely hit for me; either i'm doing it wrong or it's too easy to DI away from. Also, I haven't had much success with Bair (at low percents) because it seems like they can reach the stage/ledge before I can space it right.


so, ideas and answers please?

Also, I won't go as far into it (not now anyways), hut I'd like the same question answered if I grab him but facing away from the ledge. Bthrow to Bair? Tilt ****? Dthrow to Usmash? Gimme whatcha got, even the gimmicky stuff.

 

[Teczer0]

I have a few tricks I know. I haven't ever practiced them tho so you can test it out for me if you'd like =3

I totally need to get home tho so I'll edit this maybe

 

[-Vocal-]

Well definitely let me know. Falcon is one of the few matchups I feel like I'm definitely getting a handle on, so I might be able to win it somewhat consistently soon enough.

Spacies, on the other hand, **** me every direction at once. Seriously, I just don't (yet?) have the skillset to deal with a aggressive spacey

 

[Nedved]

Start to notice your enemies habits, every the Marth felt pressured he would try to double jump to safety.

Examples:

0:35 You stopped his game plan and he tried to reset the situation by jumping away. Chase him there! He has no jumps and near the edge. Pressure him until he cracks.

0:41 look at Marth after your dash attack. Double jumped again.

0:44 3 seconds later you Dtilted and he double jumped. Again...

1:04 After the dash attack you could've read the double jump and punished it.

2:16 Dtilt and guess what followed? Yeah Double jump.

3:28 Look at Marth, Look at Sheik, Look at Marth again then look at sheik. Your presence was pressuring the Marth to react. He feared getting hit and can you tell me how exactly he reacted? ........Double Jump.

The game isn't always about what you're doing wrong but your opponent too. Look out for habits in the situations you put him in. What does he do when you're close by? Does he grab alot? Spot Dodge? Roll? Spam attacks?

You roll inwards every time Marth throws you near edge. You telegraph your attacks too easily, eveytime you short hop or are 5 feet from the enemy you attack. You can get shield grabbed especially by Marth if you don't use safe moves or spacing on shield.

Does your opponent like to shield a lot when you jump at him? Learn the tomahawk (empty jump) to force in shield then grab. (don't abuse it though)

Also at low percents people can CC grab or attack so go for more grabs to damage, Safe Dsmashes and believe it or not the AAA jab combo. Free 30% on Crouch Cancel happy players.

Abuse needles.

Fix your habits, stay cool under pressure and look out for their habits.

Oh BTW:

1:24 the Marth mindgamed you twice here. He would hit you forwards, run that direction and wavedash back. That dash tricked you into thinking he was committing to moving where you were when he really wasn't. He got you twice. Watch out for those mindgames.
-KillerBee

Well, I have never noticed he always double jump under pressure.
I'm gonna watch more carefully what he does in our matches. Thanks, you're the man !

 

[Ministry]

I land a grab on CF at low percents facing a ledge. What do I do? Things I've tried:
1 - DThrow > Tilt ****. This one ignores the ledge and just uses the throw to rack up tilt damage, which I've seen work great at low percents.

2 - DThrow > FTilt > Fair. This is the basic throw combo I've been using most often, as Dthrow to Fair directly doesn't seem to work.

3 - Dthrow > Jab > Dsmash. If they aren't expecting the jab, it seems like this is a goo way to get them offstage at a bad angle for them.

4 - Fthrow > Run off aerial. This one I've had trouble figuring out. I've tried runoff > second jump Nair which works sometimes, but usually only if they alreay have some damage on them. I've also tried runoff > Fair, but it has rarely hit for me; either i'm doing it wrong or it's too easy to DI away from. Also, I haven't had much success with Bair (at low percents) because it seems like they can reach the stage/ledge before I can space it right.


so, ideas and answers please?

Also, I won't go as far into it (not now anyways), hut I'd like the same question answered if I grab him but facing away from the ledge. Bthrow to Bair? Tilt ****? Dthrow to Usmash? Gimme whatcha got, even the gimmicky stuff.

if you fthrow falcon, a lot of them will jump back on with knee. So i fthrow and retreat with needle, or wait. and you can just grab him, if you hit him with the needle then he loses his stock.

hes pseudo like falco where you cant go out after him since he can knee/falco dair and it can potentially kill you.

Also i like to upthrow and react to get him above me, also it catches them off guard. If you are lucky he will just try to stop you to get down and you can avoid that and then grab.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

if you fthrow falcon, a lot of them will jump back on with knee. So i fthrow and retreat with needle, or wait.

Waiting in shield is the safest bet IMO. Some Falcons will double jump airdodge back onstage and punish your needles, especially if you've already done it to him previously in the match. If you wait in shield you can punish both the knee and the airdodge and grab him again.

I'm not 100% sure because I don't have that much experience with the matchup, but running offstage and double jump nairing back on should technically work well, also.

 

[Nedved]

I'm not 100% sure because I don't have that much experience with the matchup, but running offstage and double jump nairing back on should technically work well, also.

It works pretty well as an edgeguard, and it beats Falcon's Up-B too. Pretty effective but might not work if Falcon goes for an air dodge.

 

[-Vocal-]

It works pretty well as an edgeguard, and it beats Falcon's Up-B too. Pretty effective but might not work if Falcon goes for an air dodge.

It works, and well, but not at very low percentages. He reaches the stage or the ledge before you have time to knock him away.

 

[gm jack]

Don't feel you need to kill him to quickly. If you can force him onto the ledge (and can't stop him) he's in a really bad position against sheik. Make sure he can't get back on stage and you'll get more opportunities to hit him back off stage or start a combo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Needles are ridiculous.

That is all.

 

[Nedved]

I have hard time dealing with Falcon when he's on the edge. I use needles to pressure him (Short hop and needles) but all I do is pretty ineffective. :/

 

[gm jack]

Wait a bit away from the edge crouching. The crouch cancel will beat everything he can do except knee, which is easy to sheild and punish on reaction as it's so slow. Works pretty good against marth too.

If there is a platform near the edge, that can be a safe place to wait to fall down aerial/grab when he comes on in any way. Watch out for the ledge hop uair poking through though, as it has surprising range.

 

[stelzig]

If you try to shorthop needle him then he can get in and even hit you in so many ways. You basiaclly have to catch him very off guard to get away with that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait a bit away from the edge crouching. The crouch cancel will beat everything he can do except knee, which is easy to sheild and punish on reaction as it's so slow. Works pretty good against marth too.

If there is a platform near the edge, that can be a safe place to wait to fall down aerial/grab when he comes on in any way. Watch out for the ledge hop uair poking through though, as it has surprising range.

Ah, the crouch strat. Very good. I too enjoy stealing Jigglypuff techniques.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I use the crouch strat as fox, but we dont need spacing cause were cheap and dont need skill

 

[Pinkie Pie]

I was gonna make a thread for this but since I have like 2 links I won't bother I guess lmao.

Just gonna share some of my random Sheik vids from No Johns.

Me vs G$

Ahhaha, poor G putting in work just to get gimped by Sheik

 

[Teczer0]

Ahhaha, poor G putting in work just to get gimped by Sheik

I was basically like

When it happened.

 

[Pinkie Pie]

Ahhh toooo cute! I'm going to start doing that every time I win a match.

So I'm picking up Sheik, 'cause she's just like so ****. I'll be on the boards a lot more now (hopefully posting with some actual content next time).

 

[strawhats]

I use the crouch strat as fox, but we dont need spacing cause were cheap and dont need skill

lmfao...this post should be pinned up for all to see.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm still getting demolished by aggressive spacies. I have a better hold on Falcon and can deal adequately with most other characters I've faced so far (bomb spamming Samus is a little difficult), but the spacies screw me so hard. Once they're flying at me with SHFFLs and shines and Dairs I just feel trapped and don't know how to fight back.

I'm also still figuring out how jab resets work. I haven't figured out yet when they're a good idea or what they lead into at what percents

 

[Teczer0]

Ahhh toooo cute! I'm going to start doing that every time I win a match.

So I'm picking up Sheik, 'cause she's just like so ****. I'll be on the boards a lot more now (hopefully posting with some actual content next time).

LOL =3

Dooo eet =3. Never enough sheik players. Does this mean you're going to tournies and stuff again? =3

 

[Nihonjin]

So I'm picking up Sheik.

I approve..

 

[Teczer0]

What a good emote omg.

Vocal - Jab resets are just jabs done to characters that didn't tech on the ground. It works generally in the lower percent area as a general rule of thumb, maybe like 0-25%?

And if you can land it, you should basically go for it.

 

[-Vocal-]

What a good emote omg.

Vocal - Jab resets are just jabs done to characters that didn't tech on the ground. It works generally in the lower percent area as a general rule of thumb, maybe like 0-25%?

And if you can land it, you should basically go for it.

Maybe jab reset wasn't the right term. I mean combo-ing jabs in general. Like Throw to jab to downsmash, or throw to jab to regrab, or throw jab jab Ftilt, etc. I'm getting better at it but I still get punished for trying occasionally

 

[Teczer0]

Haha, yea thats not a jab reset at all actually.

I tend to shy away from those, they're super inconsistent and not really reliable imo. I'd much rather just fair or ftilt and then chase.

I only use jabs in combos at like the upper 140ish percents.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Maybe jab reset wasn't the right term.

Jab resets occur when you jab an opponent who didn't tech, forcing a get-up animation.

 

[-Vocal-]

Haha, yea thats not a jab reset at all actually.

I tend to shy away from those, they're super inconsistent and not really reliable imo. I'd much rather just fair or ftilt and then chase.

I only use jabs in combos at like the upper 140ish percents.

Got it. I'll keep that in mind.

One specific question (for everyone of course): when is Falco actually vulnerable? It seems like if he's approaching from the air then Dair outprioritizes my responses, if he's approaching horizontally then lasers keep me in too much stun to relaliate, and if he's next to me then he can just pop me up with shine. I'm sure there's an opening somewhere, but I'm having trouble regularly finding it

 

[gm jack]

He doesn't have much horizontal range, so he is vulnerable in the air, just not directly below him.

Lasers aren't that good. Good power shielding, wd oos and platform use can limit his options from them. Good OoS aerials can also punish poor laser approaches.

You out range him and can do a lot from a single hit. If you can space well, if can force them into making mistakes and throwing out moves badly, which can be punished with practice.

The match up is hard to learn, but sheik has a lot she can do once you know how to play.

 

[darkatma]

Yo KK i was watching your semi-seriouslies with unknown, and you have a lot of the same problems as me in the matchup (ofc you're like way better at it though)

but a lot of it is that we get stuck in a stupid mindset, like after fox pulls of a **** uthrow->nair->utilt->nair->utilt->nair nair combo we're like.. wtf that doesn't actually work, and then get ***** by thinking about how unfair the combo is instead of working on defense of our own

also you started out getting a lot of grabs, but as you got like more and more desperate your tempo starts becoming very uniform, and you forget that sometimes the best thing to do is to slow down and get a grab. Like dash attack -> fair at mid percent should actually be dash attack -> grab, because grab has most potential

the same occurs with falling behind. you feel the need to kill fox asap and then you spam dsmashes and poorly spaced ftilts and shffl fairs into his shield as he waits patiently for a shieldgrab. grab is also the best option at high percents.

also you tend to miss a lot of stuff like combo->dash attack, for example, weird DI on uptilt -> missed dash attack
and you do loopy stuff like me, with the wavelands, which don't actually work on fox because you're too close to him and its within his nair and dash attack range. so instead, probably drop down and turnaround shield would be much better at times

also looking for more times to sneak in more ftilts for added damage, sometimes you were too focused on killing him and he was like at 80% and you ftilt->faired, which sent him nowhere. maybe you can sneak in a 2nd ftilt and then fair

also fox sends you at stupid angles and then you try to tech too early. you miss a ****ton of techs (like me), iono how to improve on this lol.. just start thinking about the techs and where fox would have the most trouble getting you i guess

also i feel like your game would improve a lot with the incorporation of empty shorthop.. used sparingly

also... i really like your sheik LOL
i'll get to that level one day..

 

[-Vocal-]

What should I do if I land a grab on spacies at high percents? Also, what's the best way to kill spacies at high percents?

 

[gm jack]

For the grab, depends on the version. I think ntsc dthrow leads to a dsmash depending on di. In PAL, you can go for a dthrow ->tech chase into a dash attack etc. Uthrow can also chain into a ftilt if they di the throw poorly, or put them on a platform where you can try and use uair or dair to set up the fair.

For the best way to kill them, anything works really. All your tilts, dash attack etc should link to fair, along with fair, bair, dsmash etc working really well cold.

The biggest thing is to play safe. Get predictable by fishing for the kill to much and you will get destroyed for it.

 

[mers]

What should I do if I land a grab on spacies at high percents? Also, what's the best way to kill spacies at high percents?

Throw them offstage if you're near the edge, otherwise still just dthrow and follow up.

Killing spacies is mostly edgeguarding, though sometimes a badly DIed ftilt will set you up for a kill. That or like a sick dair combo or something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ atma

I will keep those in mind. I can't really comment further because I agree with most of if not all of it...

 

[Pinkie Pie]

I approve..

Yay!!!!!!

I will post some vids later. I expect full Amsah and Teco critique! My plan is to beat all you guys at Apex.

 

[joejoe22802]

Hey pros I just can't get past peach. I've been playing a peach but he's much campier than Baka.

He generally stays grounded other than when he's spamming aerials at a safe distance. Doesn't really turnip spam that much. Does a lot of jabs. Crouch cancels a lot, especially all my full jumped spaced nairs. Alway edgeguards with downsmash. Doesn't really combo too hard but rather attacks and then leaves again. Play really really slow, likes to time out people.

I guess some habits I noticed from his is that he always punishes landing on a platform with FJ nair, is always looking for a downsmash and generally uses it twice when possible, gets out of dthrow uair with nairs.

With all the Jabs and CC's I have a really hard time speeding up the match and playing quick like i normally do. I end up feeling like I have to camp him and I just feel like I should be spacing closer and applying more pressure. I usually feel like I'm applying none at all.

 

[Nedved]

If you know Peach is gonna CC->DSmash, try to short hop->needles then grab.
Needles are always a good option by the way. After some grab and needles, Peach won't be able to CC anymore

If Peach uses DSmash as an adgeguard a lot, try to change your recovery and go on stage / platforms.
You can also techjump on the edge.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey pros I just can't get past peach. I've been playing a peach but he's much campier than Baka.

He generally stays grounded other than when he's spamming aerials at a safe distance. Doesn't really turnip spam that much. Does a lot of jabs. Crouch cancels a lot, especially all my full jumped spaced nairs. Alway edgeguards with downsmash. Doesn't really combo too hard but rather attacks and then leaves again. Play really really slow, likes to time out people.

I guess some habits I noticed from his is that he always punishes landing on a platform with FJ nair, is always looking for a downsmash and generally uses it twice when possible, gets out of dthrow uair with nairs.

With all the Jabs and CC's I have a really hard time speeding up the match and playing quick like i normally do. I end up feeling like I have to camp him and I just feel like I should be spacing closer and applying more pressure. I usually feel like I'm applying none at all.

Good movement + grabbing > Peach ground game (unless they're Armada and have the crazy WD back d-tilt spacing but it sounds like this guy doesn't have that)

You can also coax him to do stuff with needles. Just charging ground needles and then releasing them as you see her turnip pull or canceling them as she blocks or jumps and then responding accordingly is a pretty good way to provoke Peach into doing things that she can't counter with crouching.

In terms of other forms of offense you can play on it...

Bair > Peach ground game if you're spaced

Fair > Peach ground game if you're spaced, AC it, and they're over like 30%

SH waveland back is also pretty good (FF required often for speed; you can also do the air-dodge early for the twitchy retreat movement - the result is a really half-baked waveland but you dodge certain spacings of dash attack) because it baits dash attacks if they're playing really grounded

To escape Peach's d-smash edgeguard just hold down until 1st hit of d-smash hits > immediately hit up before 2nd hit of d-smash connects and you'll be fine




Learning where you can shield grab her jab stuff is also a good way around this (it sounds like).

 

[-Vocal-]

Jigglypuff. What in the hoo haw am I supposed to do. Things I primarily have problems with:

-Crouch cancel > Rest
-Crouch > Bair > Crouch > Bair...I guess just Bair walling in general
-How am I supposed to kill her?

Also: Sheik. I know it's silly because it's the ditto, but what things should I place priority on in the matchup? Knockoff and edgeguard? Dair combos? Crouch cancel > Dsmashing?

 

[gm jack]

For puff, don't try to grab or dash attack her ever. It's not worth it. Crouch just destroys it.

SH needles hit puff on the ground pretty well, and as puff is so light, she can't afford to soak that up for too long.

Spacing fairs on he crouch works well at higher percents.

Bair spam if beaten by finding the holes in hit. Bair is not a very quick move, and sheik is quick on the ground. If you can see what makes puff miss, you can get under her with bair, uair, fair etc. CC to tilt works ok, but only at fairly low percents.

To kill, just keep spacing those aerials until it hits hard enough to kill. Also, don't be afraid to edge guard. If they go high, you can often DJ bair them if they aren't paying attention to their height. Low recoveries can be dealt with by needles and invincible ledge hopped aerials.

Sheik dittos are strange, as the punishment game is so high for both players. CC works really well at low percents, and going into the air is generally a bad idea, as sheik's anti air game is far better than her ability to deal with people below her. Grabs are stupid good. Learn when you can get easy gimps, as it can be easy to catch them out of their UpB before the invincibility kicks in. If nothing else, just hold the ledge, and destroy them in the recovery lag you know all too well.