Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[thumbswayup]

Another reason to hate brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ocKvf5k8Y

 

[Tony_]

Another reason to hate brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ocKvf5k8Y

Piss poor reasoning by using Lylat Cruise. Its the players fault he dropped off the stage, not the stage killing the player.

 

[thumbswayup]

Piss poor reasoning by using Lylat Cruise. Its the players fault he dropped off the stage, not the stage killing the player.

Actually it was a joke because everyone hates that stage.

 

[Tony_]

Actually it was a joke because everyone hates that stage.

God****it. I hate it when I take things seriously all the time. =\

 

[Reaver197]

And you were expecting what?

I was being facetious. From the real world, that's pretty much all we can hope to garner, lol.

 

[M@v]

I was at Smashtastrophe II on the brawl day(I had to work on the melee day). I noticed most of the crowd was definately Melee>Brawl. HOWEVER, they were still ENJOYING themselves on brawl. I think brawl is just as compeitive as melee.


Brawl has lots of similar aspects to melee. Still the basic rules right? In my view, placing 2 guys on a stage with no items, and on a neutral stage, which both games boast, is quite competitive no matter how you look at it. Melee and Brawl both accomplish this. Getting more detailed. Im going to address some statements raised by some on the melee side on why it is more competitive. Im not trying to attack these people, I'm merely stating counterpoints. I know no one hates brawl.


"Comboing is much bigger in melee" I can name several combos and chains in brawl. One example is foxs dash attack-utilt-utilt-usmash. This is very effective at lower percents. Also
Ike can down throw-up b, all the stuff you can do with marth, especially with side-b, which is an amazing move, etc.)

Tripping- I know this a common complaint. It can ruin game winning combos. I agree with the melee team on this one. Although it hasnt cost me stocks, it HAS caused me from taking stocks. I don't mind it, but some are extremely furious about it.


But, I think they are both very competitive games. I just think since brawl is newer, and has much more poularity due to melee's success, it has much potential to shine in the competitive circuits, due to the larger viewing crowd.

 

[LOL_Master]

I was at Smashtastrophe II on the brawl day(I had to work on the melee day). I noticed most of the crowd was definately Melee>Brawl. HOWEVER, they were still ENJOYING themselves on brawl. I think brawl is just as compeitive as melee.


Brawl has lots of similar aspects to melee. Still the basic rules right? In my view, placing 2 guys on a stage with no items, and on a neutral stage, which both games boast, is quite competitive no matter how you look at it. Melee and Brawl both accomplish this. Getting more detailed. Im going to address some statements raised by some on the melee side on why it is more competitive. Im not trying to attack these people, I'm merely stating counterpoints. I know no one hates brawl.


"Comboing is much bigger in melee" I can name several combos and chains in brawl. One example is foxs dash attack-utilt-utilt-usmash. This is very effective at lower percents. Also
Ike can down throw-up b, among others.

Tripping- I know this a common complaint. It can ruin game winning combos. I agree with the melee team on this one. Although it hasnt cost me stocks, it HAS caused me from taking stocks. I don't mind it, but some are extremely furious about it.

"No wavedashing. Wavedashing required skill and technique." True, wavedashing is hard to do, and it is an awesome technique. However, wavedashing is a glitch, never meant to be in melee. And some "pro" matches I have seen, all they did was wavedash. This equates to me:
Your called a pro because you exploit a glitch in a game constantly. I think thats stupid. If wavedashing wasnt allowed in melee, I'm confident, besides some more combos, that melee matches would be near identical to brawl.

The wavedashing thing is my biggest issue with the argument. But, I think they are both very competitive games. I just think since brawl is newer, and has much more poularity due to melee's success, it has much potential to shine in the competitive circuits, due to the larger viewing crowd.

right, in the pro matches all they did was wavedash huh? you must have eye problems, cause you don't 'beat' the other opponent by pressing the joystick in a direction and airdodging onto the stage

 

[M@v]

Ok im sorry. Wavedash to any attack, with nearly no lag. There. And isnt it obvious what I meant?

 

[LOL_Master]

Ok im sorry. Wavedash to any attack, with nearly no lag. There. And isnt it obvious what I meant?

actually, no.

 

[(*Jman*)]

lol master

u dont need to say anying i sure that guy did not do anything in melee so now he trying in brawl and he still cant LOL

 

[M@v]

Whatever. I try to contribute to this discussion, and what happenes? I get spit in the face.
WAVEDASHING SECTION DELETED. I dont want it sparking an argument. Ill keep it to myself

And to Jman. Why are you insulting me? I merely posted an opinion. Yet you jump all over me for accusing a fault in melee. I even said I wasnt trying to target anyone/anything. It was merely personal input to further discussion.

 

[Fletch]

"No wavedashing. Wavedashing required skill and technique." True, wavedashing is hard to do, and it is an awesome technique. However, wavedashing is a glitch, never meant to be in melee. And some "pro" matches I have seen, all they did was wavedash EDIT(and go into an attack). This equates to me:
Your called a pro because you exploit a glitch in a game constantly. I think thats stupid. If wavedashing wasnt allowed in melee, I'm confident, besides some more combos, that melee matches would be near identical to brawl.

The wavedashing thing is my biggest issue with the argument. But, I think they are both very competitive games. I just think since brawl is newer, and has much more poularity due to melee's success, it has much potential to shine in the competitive circuits, due to the larger viewing crowd.

Wavedashing is nowhere near the most-used technique in Melee, although it is a hell of a lot of fun to use. More "pros" spam SHFFLing and DDing than WDing (sorry for the abbreves)

 

[M@v]

Wavedashing section deleted. I dont want to start a firestorm of argument and bickering. Sorry I posted an opinion.

 

[Fletch]

Wavedashing section deleted. I dont want to start a firestorm of argument and bickering. Sorry I posted an opinion.

Wasn't trying to offend you, I'm just stating that many people overrate the usefulness of the wavedash (it is useful, just not nearly as necessary as some other techniques), and most people that like Melee over Brawl don't really care THAT much about this being removed (although it still sucks).

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think we're succeeding very much in playing the game as it is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CPcXrYv1p-Y

No fair Ankoku, I made the "Brawl Dial-a-Combo" comparison a while ago, you stole my idea

Edit: Nvm, it was on AiB not SWF >.>

 

[LOL_Master]

it's not that though, pgh, but since jman already stated the obvious, im not gonna bother with you any further, talk to some pro smash players, and ask questions, you'll learn

 

[Zodiac]

Well I cant believe im about to say this but this a pretty active debate thread sooooo. you hate camping right? all of your do, so do I, but you know, in melee people went allowed to excessivly stall the match. and really...what IS camping? is it not stalling the match,

BAN CAMPING. just do it. everyone, ban it. then brawl would be fun if people didnt sit down and camp all the friggen time! It would be fun, dare I say it, it would even be viable as a competitive game!

 

[yoshi_fan]

But Wavedashing, even if it was a glitch, it was one of the things that made Melee better. Melee without ATs is still equal to brawl, but melee with ATs is superior to brawl.

Anyway, wavedashing is fun :D you can go there doing dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah (samus sound lol)

Ok joke, but you get the point.

(In most competitive games, they use exploits (because wavedash is a EXPLOIT, it was ntencional, but is a abuse of the physics engine)).

Ok now let's end the WD arguement

Edit: I also hate brawl beccause i hate campers. The are boringg

 

[Pink Reaper]

Without Wavedashing how are you going to make G&W sing along with the Dreamland 64 theme hmmm?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Well I cant believe im about to say this but this a pretty active debate thread sooooo. you hate camping right? all of your do, so do I, but you know, in melee people went allowed to excessivly stall the match. and really...what IS camping? is it not stalling the match,

BAN CAMPING. just do it. everyone, ban it. then brawl would be fun if people didnt sit down and camp all the friggen time! It would be fun, dare I say it, it would even be viable as a competitive game!

You can't ban camping. How do you define the difference between using a few projectiles and camping?

 

[Scar]

Melee without ATs is still equal to brawl, but melee with ATs is superior to brawl.

Uhhh... not so sure about that. Melee - wavedashing is still >> Brawl.

Oh, and by the way, Scar: After watching 'I Killed Mufasa' I found my third main. I had no idea who it would be until then and after watching your video and seeing you completely own, I picked up Captain Falcon and loved him from that point on. Just thought you'd want to know.

<3 Glad I could help.

 

[EC_Joey]

I don't get why people applaud the lack of wavedashing in brawl, but don't lament the removal of L-canceling.

 

[Proverbs]

I don't get why people applaud the lack of wavedashing in brawl, but don't lament the removal of L-canceling.

People applaud the lack of wavedashing in Brawl? Where have you been? If you mean they flip out over the lack of wavedashing and don't care about the removal of l-cancelling, then I might be able to provide some insight.

For some reason, (I'm going to generalize a lot here, bear with me) it seems that the players that are starting to pick up the ATs for Melee are ridiculously convinced that wavedashing is incredibly broken and it's impossible to live without it. Wavedashing was just spacing and it helped give people some options. That's about it. It wasn't a one hit kill that anyone could say is unfair (however people DO call wavedashing unfair for whatever reason) and it isn't a miracle worker people can look to anytime they need help. There were professional smashers who were GOOD without wavedashing. I know there was a Samus player that didn't wavedash that was pretty well known, Aniki maybe? Or am I thinking of someone else? Anyway, that's the deal with wavedashing, some people think it's this panacea. But I honestly think that comboing is what should have been left in Brawl. The lack of hitstun is ridiculously stupid and that's my complaint. However, I still play Brawl.

Now onto l-cancelling. This explanation will be noticeably shorter. There are other ways to cancel landing lag and the landing lag of aerials has already been reduced dramatically since Melee. Brawl plays extremely smoothly and l-cancelling is a bit obsolete. Auto-cancelling, I believe, has replaced it for the most part. And even without auto-cancelling, once again, Brawl plays smoothly and doesn't really need l-cancelling.

 

[EC_Joey]

People applaud the lack of wavedashing in Brawl? Where have you been? If you mean they flip out over the lack of wavedashing and don't care about the removal of l-cancelling, then I might be able to provide some insight.

I've been here the whole time. This is what I was referring to:

"No wavedashing. Wavedashing required skill and technique." True, wavedashing is hard to do, and it is an awesome technique. However, wavedashing is a glitch, never meant to be in melee. And some "pro" matches I have seen, all they did was wavedash. This equates to me:
Your called a pro because you exploit a glitch in a game constantly. I think thats stupid. If wavedashing wasnt allowed in melee, I'm confident, besides some more combos, that melee matches would be near identical to brawl.

The impression I got was that this person was relieved to see that wavedashing is not in Brawl for people to exploit and try to appear professional.

There are other ways to cancel landing lag and the landing lag of aerials has already been reduced dramatically since Melee. Brawl plays extremely smoothly and l-cancelling is a bit obsolete. Auto-cancelling, I believe, has replaced it for the most part. And even without auto-cancelling, once again, Brawl plays smoothly and doesn't really need l-cancelling.

The only way I can see L-canceling being obsolete (or unnecessary) in Brawl is if your style of play consisted of all full-jumped aerials and ground attacks. The exception would be moves such as Fox's d-air, but the majority of aerial attacks in Brawl still have a sizeable amount of landing lag, especially when short-hopped.

 

[RDK]

Have you ever heard of any of these anti-wavedashing people who call AT's "glitches" outside of the forums, or prominent in the tournament scene? No.

Because anyone who knows anything about Smash sees wavedashing, etc. for what it is. These people who come out and call WDing a glitch are just nobodies who probably entered the Melee scene late, and their only experience with WDing is watching videos of it, or getting owned by someone who utilizes it well.

 

[Vice Lord]

very true rdk. If newer players had anything to complain about in melee, they should of complained about shffling, as it allowed ridiculous combos for many characters.

 

[Scar]

Very true RDK. "Wavedashing is a glitch" has never come out of the mouth of anyone who was seen Melee for what it really is.

 

[SAID!]

Almost positive that Samus player who didn't wave dash was not Aniki if i remember correctly Aniki was filthy good at implementing super wave dashing not to mention regular wave dashing.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Almost positive that Samus player who didn't wave dash was not Aniki if i remember correctly Aniki was filthy good at implementing super wave dashing not to mention regular wave dashing.

Aniki played both Samus and Link, man.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Pink Reaper]

Aniki played both Samus and Link, man.

Smooth Criminal

And occasionally Doctor Mario. Doesn't wavedash with any of them.

 

[Aesir]

Almost positive that Samus player who didn't wave dash was not Aniki if i remember correctly Aniki was filthy good at implementing super wave dashing not to mention regular wave dashing.

Aniki was never good at wavedashing so he never did it.

 

[Snakeyes]

So guys, has Brawl's metagame developped into something more interesting in the past few months ? Haven't touched my copy since April.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well.....it still doesn't look all that good, Snake and MK are still dominating, and very few interesting or useful ATs have come out (That infinte second jump thing is probably the ONLY one), but it's getting better.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Well.....it still doesn't look all that good, Snake and MK are still dominating, and very few interesting or useful ATs have come out (That infinte second jump thing is probably the ONLY one), but it's getting better.

Pikachu's QAC, and Nana's stationary desync were found. If you really care and don't know about these tricks, look 'em up.

One thing about the QAC that is odd is that it had to be intentionally left in, or actually a deliberate add on, because of the way it uses the Brawl system. For whatever reason, when you Quick attack the ground, it resets you jump counter before you hit the ground. I can't think of a reason this would be intentionally done, but unlike Melee's wavedashes it seems deliberate, because this reset is conditional, meaning the programmers had to have known about it and set up this condition which is unique to the Brawl Pikachu.

 

[epitragia]

This is the argument:

Brawl lacks many of the things which made melee competitive. Here's a list for you:

Mental Battles on Approach

Melee: Melee revolved around outsmarting your opponent on an approach, always by making them think you were going to do one thing (attacking, dashing, rolling), then doing another. The speed of the game, along with the variety of approach options (wavedashing, dashdancing,, triangle jumping, dash attacking, shffling, wavelanding, retreating, rolling, dodging) made this the single most competitive aspect of melee. You'll never see pros standing still in the game. Note that there are many, many more approach options beyond what I listed, especially when you get into character specifics.

Brawl: Brawl has very, very few approach options. Each one is incredibly predictable and easily punishable. You can dash, dash attack, aerial attack, air dodge, or roll. Each one is visible from a mile away. Because of this, approaching is no longer the most viable strategy. Rather, the best strategy is to sit across the stage and lob projectiles all match.

The difference:
There's no real way to be a mental step ahead of your opponent. If you play a fast character, you can easily predict an approach, and react accordingly. This does not mean Brawl is not competitive; rather, it means that it is less competitive in this area due to more limitations.


MAIN POINT

Brawl, right now, as a competitive game, does not allow for much more than camping and spamming. This is not a difficult strategy. Yes, some do it better than others... but let's say, for example, that I'm better than my friend at Brawl. I make better decisions, I play smarter, I play faster. However, since projectile spamming is incredibly easy, and I do not have a reliable method of approach, the skill gap is weakened. We are both at the same skill level, because we are both equally good at the dominant victory strategy--camping. The fundamentals which make games competitive do not exist--it's simply a question of who caves first in the projectile wars, and whether or not they get lucky with their approach. This is what it means for Brawl to be less competitive.

This if my first post ever here, so be nice.

The first thing I notice in this post is the irresponsible use of hyperbole, and in fact it's what I notice most of all in the points made by pro-melee advocates. On the other hand, almightypancake uses an equally irresponsible amount of understatement and simplification when he points out the flaws of Brawl.

Let's take this one step at a time.

Mental Battles on Approach

Melee: I agree with the main idea brought up by almightypancake, approaching was about confusing your opponent by quick and varied attacks. In Melee it's important to recognize that its hyper speed pace was a result of overriding standard attacks. Isn't that what wavedashing, l-canceling, fast falling (exaggerated with heavy gravity), and shuffling were? HOWEVER, it seems to me that if your being disagrees with that kind of play style (fast, technical, aggressive, but those aren't the only qualities in a good combatant), then you can't succeed. Isn't that what made the game so frustratingly imbalanced? Tell me what kind of choices you have with slow, strong characters. What about a character with only attacks that worked in certain situations, like Mewtwo? Comment on that if you want.


Brawl: I don't agree with almightypancake's assertion that there are very, very few appraoch options (example of hyperbole and over simplification). IMO approaching in Brawl is also about making your opponent think you'll do one thing and then doing another, which is different than confusing your opponent. I like to do this by establishing precedent in my attack patterns. I like using Lucario, so I have to use fair, fair, fair a lot. Pretty soon my opponent thinks every air attack will be fair. So what if I do something as simple and counterintuitive as air dodging to him? I'll dodge what I'm sure is his fsmash or whatever, and I'm in, at liberty to do whatever quick attack I have. If that becomes too obvious, then I can jump around and near him as if I were bait, attacking when he misses his attack (since I'm mindful of my feigned attacks it's more likely that he'll attack and I'll dodge it). Pretty soon the last thing he'll expect is my next attack: fair. Fair gives Lucario great chance to string other attacks with that. That's complexity, strategy, and mind games, only in the truest sense of the word. Go ahead and comment on this too.

The Difference: The difference is clear. In Melee each individual approach was a mind game in itself, mostly independent from what has occurred so far in a match. So if you're watching a pro melee match, you can notice that in most identical cases, identical procedures are employed. That's because it didn't matter if the defensive was aware of the offensive's patterns. Instead what mattered was WHO REACTED FIRST to the situation (and it should go without saying the appropriate attack had to be used). Being grabbed so many times by Marth's approach has left me serious psychological damage. hehe. In Brawl, because the pace is so slow, reaction speed won't decide who's approach is successful and who's is a failure. What matters here isn't just reaction speed. And if you play as if it were, then you will be sorry when your opponent punches your lights out because of your predictability. Get smarter than that. Since attacks can't be overridden in the way they used to in Melee you'll have to USE EACH MOVE JUDICIOUSLY (i.e. the way I described Lucario or whatever else your creativity can come up with). And contrary to many beliefs, that is not a trivial task. Not in the slightest.

The spam and camp issue is next. Unless I'm playing on wfc, I have never played a decent opponent who spams and camps. It's just too easy to jump in with your attack during the cool down of a spammed attack(except maybe Snake). A camper just needs some motivation to move; this can be done by baiting or using in-n-out tactics. True, the consequences are more serious if you mess up than if the camper slips on an attack, but predictability will always fail, at least in my experience. Seriously, I think the camping issue needs to be reevaluated because they aren't a threat(again except maybe Snake).

I was going to write more but I'm interested in the reactions this gets. I'd finally like to make the following comparisons. IMO, Melee is like dodge ball, and Brawl is like chess.

Comment on whatever you'd like. Thanks so much.

 

[Lavos]

I really can't understand how you think that Melee was more about reaction speed than Brawl.

In Melee, for the most part, things were way too fast paced to rely on your ability to react. You HAD to predict your opponent or you were going to get pounded. In Brawl, I can sit there and watch my opponent approach and the game is slow enough that I don't have to predict what you're going to do. I have enough time to see it and react! If you're moving at me with Fairs, I'm just going to shield them, drop my shield, and punish. Your situation where you airdodge through a Fsmash shouldn't ever happen vs. a good player, because they should have just shield dropped an attack. If they're predicting another Fair, it shouldn't be hard to powersheild and then Fsmash. I'm not going to be fooled by the mindgame if I can see it coming and have enough time to change my plan.

Melee is clock chess.
Brawl is normal chess, but every once in a while you accidentally think out loud.

 

[Teczer0]

Melee is fast paced thats for sure.

But to say melee was TOO fast to the point you can't really react is just IMO wrong.

No one can truly predict every movement an opponent is going to do considering the vast amount of approach options given to them.

Therefore reaction time is definitely a part of melee.

Otherwise m2k couldn't possibly 4 stock legions of people, because trying to predict a player's every move that you never played before in your life is pretty much impossible.

 

[epitragia]

No fighting game is pure action. That's called mindlessness.

So you think Melee was about predicting? I agree 100% when it comes to edge guarding, and even to an extent comboing. But during an approach or a close encounter with the opponent, it was either you react quickly enough or you were confused. If both people react, then I don't need to explain to anyone that the person who got there first wins.

I confess that air dodging through yer opponent wouldn't work, but seriously, sometimes something just as counter-intuitive could work. And the incentive to do so isn't completely thwarted by the prospect of being severely punished, or even being KOd. But I still believe the general principle that judicious attacking is the main theme in Brawl. In Melee it was speed. Speedy reactions. Speedy mind games. Speedy combos.

 

[Teczer0]

Btw your situation to me sounds like all I have to do is shield and drop my shield.

Not much reaction involved if you ask me. Not even a lot of predicting either.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No fighting game is pure action. That's called mindlessness.

So you think Melee was about predicting? I agree 100% when it comes to edge guarding, and even to an extent comboing. But during an approach or a close encounter with the opponent, it was either you react quickly enough or you were confused. If both people react, then I don't need to explain to anyone that the person who got there first wins.

I confess that air dodging through yer opponent wouldn't work, but seriously, sometimes something just as counter-intuitive could work. And the incentive to do so isn't completely thwarted by the prospect of being severely punished, or even being KOd. But I still believe the general principle that judicious attacking is the main theme in Brawl. In Melee it was speed. Speedy reactions. Speedy mind games. Speedy combos.

See the underlined text.

I hate to sound like an *******, but I don't see what's so "judicious" or "precise" about powershielding an attack and then counterattacking. Seriously.

Smooth Criminal