Oh no, I knew that was AR'd, but he has since become ******** technical. Have you seen him do the Lowrider? Its ridiculous.
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
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LOL_Master
Smash Lord
if you have brains, you can almost always overcome those players that are just STRAIGHT technical
Silent Wolf won the tech skill battle against DaShizWiz, that's all I know. phanna doesn't travel out of state much, I think.
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
I don't understand how this can be a debate. There are facts.. period. Facts are that brawl is half the game of ssbm, mindgames without the tech. SSBM has mindgames and tech. Nintendo once again showed they are not in the same league as Microsoft when it comes to creating competitive games... Its like taking halo 2 and when it comes to making halo 3 they make it into golden eye or something lol... seriously. Brawl is a good game and we will play it because thats all they have given us.. but its not one of the greats like ssbm truely was.... and that is sad to me 
. Nintendo needs to grow some balls for once..
. Nintendo needs to grow some balls for once..
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
Um, no they don't...because Smash was never meant to be hardcore competitive. It was supposed to be a fun, crazy game that you could play with your friends. At least, that's what I recall Smash 64 being. Remember, it was you guys who turned Melee into a super competitive title. I don't think they ever intended for Melee to become something like that...so you can't exactly fault Nintendo for continuing what worked for them: a four player fighting game with a gathering of Nintendo characters and history that couldn't be found in any other game.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
casual gamers would have just as much fun with brawl as they do now if sakurai kept the competitive aspect of smash
so yes, we can blame him because he doesn't care about us
Fletch
Smash Master
While I agree that that is more than likely their intent with making the Smash scene, what did they really have to lose by leaving the competitive aspects that made Melee such a superior game in Brawl? It doesn't ruin it for the casual crowd, they still played Melee all the time in ignorant bliss and really enjoyed it; why couldn't it be the same for Brawl?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Simply since they felt that the competitive scene and done something that was unintended with the game. They had turned it into their game.
So I guess Sakurai said **** YOU COMPETITIVE GAMERS! and basically forced everyone to play Brawl as he envisioned.
*shrug*
So I guess Sakurai said **** YOU COMPETITIVE GAMERS! and basically forced everyone to play Brawl as he envisioned.
*shrug*
Fletch
Smash Master
Who the hell cares if they had done something "unintended" with the game? In the end, it just netted them more sales, and kept Melee on the best-sellers list for nearly all of the Gamecube's life span. Common sense would dictate that you would then follow this formula; what is going to happen when Brawl has run its course, the casuals stop playing, and it's deemed as a game not fit for competition? Who will keep buying it then and keep playing? I've bought at least 4 copies of Melee to date, and haven't touched Brawl since about a month after its release... Not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but it seems to be Nintendo's strategy, which does not make any sense, and is essentially a big f*** you to those that kept Melee as one of Nintendo's best-selling games.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Oh, God... are we REALLY going to start this again?! Sakurai didn't have a vendetta against us, so stop acting like Brawl was made as if Sakurai was personally giving giving each of us the finger whilst f**cking our girlfriends and requesting TPS reports. He had every right to do whatever he wanted, and this just so happened to be it, so leave it alone. Blaming Sakurai this late in the game isn't going to accomplish anything (especially considering he already said he probably won't want to make another SSB game anyway).
arrowhead
Smash Ace
he wasn't as bad as you exaggerated, but it was clear he did not want more skilled players to dominate. so it was more like him just giving us the finger instead of also f**cking our girlfriends also
thank god
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Missing the point. He never wanted more skilled players to completely dominate, and we'd all know that if we all read some of his early interviews (I'm talking about SSB64/SSBM interviews). We can't blame him because WE changed the Smash formula of our own accord into a competitive one. If we want more competitive Smash games, logic would dictate that if the SSB64/SSBM director is at the helm, we'll have to change the formula of our own accord again. So... no, I didn't over-exaggerate, because there ARE people who think that Sakurai literally sat in his office and plotted the SWF apocalypse. I don't see the logic (or the use) in caring anymore. Just play the **** game, and if you can't play it the way you want, then pass the baton to someone else, because for every person on these forums incessantly b*tching about Brawl not being inherently competitive, there are 5 people willing to MAKE it competitive.
Cookiez
Smash Ace
Mistake... Delete mods please.
bovineblitzkrieg
Smash Journeyman
Wow you've bought four copies of Melee? Why?
I've bought something like 5 GC controllers, but 4 games???
Cookiez
Smash Ace
He probably thought that the hole was for an entirely different purpose if you know what I mean.
That said, I'm sure i've bought more copies than that.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Office Space reference?
<3 that movie.
What i don't understand about this debate is the point. The thread has been derailed from intelligen debates a long time ago, the arguments have been chewed, digested, and spat out again, and these recycled versions won't be changing anyone's opinion.
I'd say the general consensus is that Melee is a more competitive game, but it's not important; Brawl is a good game in its own right, even though Melee might be more competitive and I personally prefer it over Brawl a lot. These arguments won't help either game, community, or the community as a whole.
So, what does this debate exist for anymore?
Fletch
Smash Master
Played them to the point of them no longer working anymore (scratches, etc.), but I thought that was obvious.
You got meHe probably thought that the hole was for an entirely different purpose if you know what I mean.
That said, I'm sure i've bought more copies than that.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
he saw what we did with the game and then he tried to make it so it's impossible for us to play like that in brawl. why wouldn't i be angry? ok, i can try to help make brawl competitive, but most of the competitive players agree that it will never be as competitive as melee is. and it's all because of sakurai's "everyone needs to be a winner" attitude.
Pfft. For the last time, the mini disk NOT go in the smoothie machine!
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
What a coincidence; I <3 people who get Office Space references.
First of all, he didn't try to make Brawl unlike competitive play, he just didn't actively try to make it like competitive play. Melee wasn't made any differently than SSB64 in concept, and Brawl wasn't made unlike Melee in concept, either; sure, there are tweaks to the engine, but nothing out of the ordinary was done in the Brawl dev cycle (that we know of) to make us think Sak didn't do things any differently than he had before.arrowhead said:
And second, the time to be mad is pretty much over. What's done is done, we've had time to vent and grieve, and now we should get over it. Make a decision (Melee, Brawl, or both) and act on it. Simple as that. Whatever your position is, just act on it instead of making insipid posts on an online message board. When it comes time to make SSB4, you can be mad again, but enough time has past for you to man up, make a decision, and move on with life instead of blaming Sakurai for all of your Smash-related problems like an emo with OCD.
Roller
Smash Legend
Why can't we all just talk about something more pleasant?
I am refering to time traveling bunnies...
I am refering to time traveling bunnies...
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
*GASP* How did they get out of their cages?! No! They were to make me millions and millions of dollars by helping me to rig lotteries!
Lavos
Smash Journeyman
Oh, so you don't wanna keep talking about this topic? DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!
Sorry, I just watched that and couldn't resist.
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
Sakurai killed my father with a bumper.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
he got rid of l-cancelling, removed directional airdodges (don't really blame him for that though), got rid of shuffling, drastically decreased hitstun, made everyone floaty, added auto ledge grabbing, etc. and then he added stupid things like footstool jumping and tripping. why would he change the game so much if he wasn't trying to make it noob friendly?
smash is very important to me. i'm going to be angry for a long time, but it's not going to change my decisions. i've already decided to play brawl because i can play online and i don't think it's TOO bad of a game, but i'll always prefer melee.
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
May I ask why?
arrowhead
Smash Ace
it's my most enjoyable hobby
Speaking of SSB4 or just in general. DON'T BUY A GAME BEFORE YOU KNOW ITS GOOD! You loose all leeway like that.
I can't read all 272 pages so I don't know if this has been said, but:
Brawl has been out for 4 months. It kinda sucks. Its been said that we can't compare it to melee because we have way more people trying to break Brawl. Think about the previous sentece. We have WAY more people trying to break brawl. The people making smash are FAR from perfect in game design. They must have ****ed up SOMEWHERE and we will find it if it exist, and it probably does.
To support (or possibly disprove) what I just said, when was the last time something new was discovered in melee? I assume 07 or 08.
I can't read all 272 pages so I don't know if this has been said, but:
Brawl has been out for 4 months. It kinda sucks. Its been said that we can't compare it to melee because we have way more people trying to break Brawl. Think about the previous sentece. We have WAY more people trying to break brawl. The people making smash are FAR from perfect in game design. They must have ****ed up SOMEWHERE and we will find it if it exist, and it probably does.
To support (or possibly disprove) what I just said, when was the last time something new was discovered in melee? I assume 07 or 08.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
This is just semantics, but he didn't really get rid of shffl-ing; the removal of l-canceling made shuffl-ing an unfortunate bit of collateral damage. Plus, Footstool Jumping actually adds to the edgeguard game and, for some characters, gives them additional mini-combos (I use it with my Toon Link all the time). Tripping is and always will be dumb.
And this is just a difference in philosophy, but I don't see the reason to act mad, even I am mad, at least this late in the game. It really doesn't accomplish anything, unless you're trying to pull people away from Brawl and to Melee, and I don't condone that anyway (for the record, I don't condone pulling people from Melee to Brawl, either), and it certainly doesn't change Sakurai's mind (like it would matter). Again, when it comes time to make another Smash Bros. game, I fully support the notion of being mad at Sak (or whoever is in charge of Smash in 7 years) to make sure this doesn't happen again, but for now... everyone really needs to just calm down.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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L-cancelling was something meant to be something where you would be like "How'd you do that?" Nothing more. No way Sakurai knew about it's amazing game-breaking useage in smash 64 or Melee. It was luck that it is so useful. We were LUCKY! Extremely lucky. Shuffling was just like L-cancelling in that sense (if Sakurai even knew about shuffling at all).
O, and footstool hopping is far from useless. Hell-if it were in Melee, we'd see quite a diffrent edge, "off the stage" game, and approaches (from being knocked off the stage) with just one tiny technique addition. It might not be extremely useful like L-cancelling (which I still don't see why it's not automatic, since it's easy as crap. >_<), but it's useful given the right situation.
All three smashes were made EXACTLY THE SAME WAY! They were meant to be party games, not hardcore competitive fighting games. We are EXTREMELY lucky with each of the three game having any competitive depth at all. In other words, smash 64's, Melee's, and Brawl's competitive depth is basically luck. We're luck to have any competitive depth in any and all of them.
ORLY?
Aesir
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure they knew it was useful and kept it in the game, because it was nerfed from 64.
L canceling helped balance the game, with out it competitive play would not have been possible, for various reasons.
I find it interesting you seem to think that shffling wasn't intended, then why would they make fast falling accessible during an attack, essentially buffing it. (In 64 you couldn't fast fall while attacking.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
sakurai knew about l-cancelling
footstool jumping it does have some uses, but it's very situational and my point is the techniques he added doesn't replace all the stuff he took out
we were VERY lucky with melee. not so much with brawl. games shouldn't lose depth as the series progresses
YESRLY!ORLY?
Scar
#HarveyDent
The addition of footstool jumping appears to have been more/less inconsequential to me, I mean the only way it can be done is basically the same was as Jiggs's rest, you need to be right on top of the person and then do it. The only reason anyone ever used rest before was because of its amazing reward, footstool jumping clearly doesn't have THAT much of a benefit to make yourself that vulnerable.
Aesir
Smash Master
Sometimes when I'm lucario I footstool them while they're shielding and down air, it sometimes shield pokes lol.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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Someone made a "new" discovery (more like an explanation for an old one, but w/e). This is ridiculously hard to do. Harder than L-canceling and wavedashing combined IMO. If this can be done consistently... then who knows how we'll play Brawl in the future. Seriously though, this is freaking hard to do consistently :/
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172824
My post where I figured out what this is and how to do it: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4591069&postcount=24
EDIT: I completely forgot to mention why I posted the links in this thread. Its just a little evidence against people who think nothing further will be discovered, and that there is nothing left to figure out. That argument was quite illogical to begin with, but with this I'm just making sure that people understand how ridiculous they sound when they say that we know everything about the game already.
Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172824
My post where I figured out what this is and how to do it: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4591069&postcount=24
EDIT: I completely forgot to mention why I posted the links in this thread. Its just a little evidence against people who think nothing further will be discovered, and that there is nothing left to figure out. That argument was quite illogical to begin with, but with this I'm just making sure that people understand how ridiculous they sound when they say that we know everything about the game already.
Most footstools that I've seen have been entirely accidental. I really believe that footstools were included to discourage people chasing their opponents off-stage, since all it takes is a (usually accidentally) well-placed jump to punish someone.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
whoa cool discovery, but i doubt there will be many players who are able to use this well. it's like trying to SWD consistently (i think, i haven't tried it out yet)
Phanna for God tier XD
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