Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[RDK]

Someone made a "new" discovery (more like an explanation for an old one, but w/e). This is ridiculously hard to do. Harder than L-canceling and wavedashing combined IMO. If this can be done consistently... then who knows how we'll play Brawl in the future. Seriously though, this is freaking hard to do consistently :/

Thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172824
My post where I figured out what this is and how to do it: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4591069&postcount=24

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention why I posted the links in this thread. Its just a little evidence against people who think nothing further will be discovered, and that there is nothing left to figure out. That argument was quite illogical to begin with, but with this I'm just making sure that people understand how ridiculous they sound when they say that we know everything about the game already.

It's not a matter of running out of things to find; it's about whether or not the things we find are practical / pragmatic. We can find millions of useless "techniques" all day long, but there's no point if said techniques add little to no depth.

Same thing as footstooling. Sure, it's slightly useful, but it's so situational that the majority of the time it happens by accident. People don't actively seek to footstool because there's a myriad of other things you can do in the situation.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I see plenty of application for the technique and I'm not pro by any means, all I see is a bunch of really good melee player's johning about brawl. If you can't beat someone that just started playing that day because they used metaknight then brawl isn't the game for you. SamuraiPanda and AlphaZealot offer plenty of good pro-brawl arguments and everyone sweeps them aside with little to no regard. Watch AZ's videos it's not melee (I love melee) but it's not as bad as most make it out to be. Scar if you can't bother yourself to watch AZ's videos refuting your points how can you consider yourself a valid part of this debate. This isn't a here why the hell would a wookie live on endor video it's evidence that contradicts alot of anti-brawl sentiments. Close-minded debate gets you nowehere, not in melee, brawl or anything else for that matter.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I see plenty of application for the technique and I'm not pro by any means, all I see is a bunch of really good melee player's johning about brawl. If you can't beat someone that just started playing that day because they used metaknight then brawl isn't the game for you. SamuraiPanda and AlphaZealot offer plenty of good pro-brawl arguments and everyone sweeps them aside with little to no regard. Watch AZ's videos it's not melee (I love melee) but it's not as bad as most make it out to be. Scar if you can't bother yourself to watch AZ's videos refuting your points how can you consider yourself a valid part of this debate. This isn't a here why the hell would a wookie live on endor video it's evidence that contradicts alot of anti-brawl sentiments. Close-minded debate gets you nowehere, not in melee, brawl or anything else for that matter.

It's not about losing to noobs... that doesn't really happen anyways, honestly.

It's about the speed, options, balance, and fun.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You know, I'd love it if they released a Smash Bros Brawl Turbo Edition. Street fighter stylee.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

It's not about losing to noobs... that doesn't really happen anyways, honestly.

It's about the speed, options, balance, and fun.

Speed: yeah its slower =/

Options: maybe less maybe more no one, NO ONE knows. ( this includes options in melee as well)

Balance: Some characters are dominating tournaments right now, same thing happened with melee I don't really see a huge gap in character balance when compared to melee.

Fun: That's subjective sir!

Someone said they lost to metaknight and it was there first time playing the game, that shouldn't ever happen to a good player.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Speed does not determine competitiveness. Speed determines "enjoyment" of the game itself. Unless you want to argue that Chess isn't competitive. Or that Baseball isn't competitive. Even balance doesn't necessarily (depending on how you look at it) determine competitiveness. Balance is what determines the longevity of the game in a competitive setting, which is why its highly associated with a game being competitive. The main contributing factor to competitiveness is depth, and depth is the number of viable options available.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Wow I'm sitting around thinking of adding a little more to my post and SamuraiPanda says it all for me, competitiveness is what you make of it for alot of things and some terms can be nailed down when describing what makes something competitive. Give brawl some time, help work on expanding the brawl horizon, or just let the new wave of players take over the scene.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It's not a matter of running out of things to find; it's about whether or not the things we find are practical / pragmatic. We can find millions of useless "techniques" all day long, but there's no point if said techniques add little to no depth.

Same thing as footstooling. Sure, it's slightly useful, but it's so situational that the majority of the time it happens by accident. People don't actively seek to footstool because there's a myriad of other things you can do in the situation.

This. The Jump Buffer thing is cool and would be pretty useful with some characters if it wasn't for the ******** timing and difficulty of preforming it consistently. Even you yourself Panda said you had alot of trouble doing it and the worst part is, the character it could probably help the most(Gannon) cant even do it with the attack it would be most useful with =\

Also **** I ****ING HATE ****ING FOOTSTOOL JUMPING **** >.<

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Awww what's wrong with footstool jumping?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I realize that speed doesn't necessarily determine competitiveness, but it sure lends itself to fun, intensity, and "OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" moments. Not to mention it's fun to watch fast-paced games. And btw... saying chess and baseball are competitive regardless of speed doesn't really mean anything... I can just say that track and swimming and cross-country are competitive because of speed. It depends on the nature of the game. I'm specifically talking about fighting video games here, we can't just use huge sweeping generalizations about every form of competition.

I hate to rehash points made 100 pages ago, but just because something can be competitive doesn't make it fun to play at a competitive level. Rock paper scissors, tic-tac-toe, the lottery, and even throwing babies off of a roof to see who can get the biggest splatter radius can all be defined as competitive. I also realize having fun is relative, but I know that many people agree with me when I say that Brawl is less fun than Melee, and a big part of that is the lack of speed and the floatiness (which is related to the speed issue).


Actually, I got my gf to play Brawl for the first time yesterday, and she thought that it was slow and kind of boring. She also got mad when she randomly tripped and wasn't a big fan of items or crazy stages that kill you. She'd never played Smash before and really had never watched me play, so that was just a non-gamer's first impression. She's pretty much been limited to old school Mario games, Mario Kart, the Sims, and Rollercoaster Tycoon... and a little Mortal Kombat/Street Fighter 2 back in the day. She got clever pretty quickly with the shield and figured out how to shield grab on her own, which I thought was impressive.

I was hoping to get her into Brawl because it'd be somewhat fun to play casually with her (and I'd get to play Brawl once in a blue moon). After trying Brawl, I threw in Melee, and she liked the speed a lot more. I tried not to bias her at all, but of course went into my whole comparing the games thing once she'd given her thoughts. It kind of sucks that she likes Melee more because I run rings around most people in Melee but she could be a "more competitive" opponent in Brawl.

So it goes. Don't forget to take this post with a grain of salt

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Heh of course, my girlfriend plays a mean kirby and her sister plays a pretty nasty peach. I see both sides of the argument, I just see everyone avoiding the hell out of Alpha and Samurai's post. We don't know where the game is going and I'm one for holding out hope on longshots( I don't think brawl is one of them) let's just try to turn this game into something more playable for everyone.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Heh of course, my girlfriend plays a mean kirby and her sister plays a pretty nasty peach. I see both sides of the argument, I just see everyone avoiding the hell out of Alpha and Samurai's post. We don't know where the game is going and I'm one for holding out hope on longshots( I don't think brawl is one of them) let's just try to turn this game into something more playable for everyone.

I really don't think that people are actually ignoring their point of view; people simply want to input their personal opinions.

The notion of Brawl being a balanced successor to Melee in my opinion is very arbitrary. It just seems as if both sides of the argument collide at one point. Brawl supporters like the game for a plethora of reasons just as the Melee players do. But i'm going to openly admit that i'm more biased towards Melee in the argument. Even though I play Brawl more than Melee, I don't support what the game is eventually going to evolve into.

Brawl's future may be dependent on the player, but a majority of the people who will compete in this game will play to win, even if they have to use dishonorable tactics that can't be countered (a la camping). Unfortunately, it seems ad if there is no possible way to break this games unbearable limitations in order to counter said tactic.

Even Sakurai stated it himself, he created this game as a party game, and he had no intention of balance outside of a 4 player FFA, which is why some of the universal balances Melee had are absent. Speed characters don't do good in FFA matches, so they designed the fast characters like so. Powerful characters don't need speed in FFA's because they do very well, even with a limited recovery. The intermediate level wasn't even touched upon, which is why some characters have horrible imbalances.

I'll keep hoping for this game, but the only future I see for this game is Meta Knight and Snake.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I share alot of these sentiments phoenix, put these characters in melee and that would make me happy, new stages really don't butter my bread. If I had to choose one it would be hard but I'd like to think myself leaning towards melee if at least out of nostalgia.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I could do without Snake, and not cuz he's broken... he's the only character that's not from a fantasy world, the metal gears are pretty realistic games. Sonic too, he's Sega... IMO he shouldn't be there. Mega Man, on the other hand, was born and raised on Nintendo, thus he'd fit in. This has been discussed to death, I know. But the Snake thing is what bothers me the most.

I also think it's no coincidence that the new characters tend to be the broken ones, seeing as how the old ones' movesets were made to balance each other in previous games and haven't changed a whole lot, save some damage, hitbox size, and knockback differences.

 

[LOL_Master]

is footstool jumping considered a useful tactic, is it hard?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Just woke up so sarcasm detector isn't on yet, but yes footstool jumping is very easy. However like many thing only situationally useful.

 

[yoshi_fan]

... Dismiss its legitimacy as a fighting game because "there aren't any REAL combos, they can easily be airdodged and DI'ed out of. There's no skill and I'm Yuna so its true" ('Seriously, how many competitive Smash players can there really be in ****ing STOCKHOLM?? I guess there's enough to allow your self-esteem to ride on it' - Vaul 2008). If you're truly rational, you should not give that much of a **** about Brawl and stick to your guns. For you, Melee is here to stay and always will be. And as I stated earlier, I wouldn't worry about losing a Melee fanbase anytime soon. Populous the Beginning. Enough said...

Ugh, we europeans are also competitive you recentmemberjustoinedinfebruary2008justisn'tanoobishnoob D:

Yes, I didn't like that thing of "****ing stockolm" even if i'm spanish

Coming to the topic:

If there is no velocity, the options become less viable, thus making less real ptions. This is what happens to brawL: there is few options, AND ALSO the game is slower, so these options become liableless (spanglish lol) so... yeah, we have come AGAIN to the point that camper-style is going to have advantage in brawl because of the loss of options.

Circlyncg cyrcled argument cycles make me say "wajauwajauyoyosh"

P.D. Sorry for the spanglish lol i really need to read more english gramma

 

[Zachary91193]

In my opinion the main difference between brawl and melee is simply that practicing Melee for hours on end will actually let you achieve something, where if you play brawl for many hours it doesn't necesserly better your In game skills.

Also, Melee has many techniques, some of which are available in brawl, which took me hours to master then when i finally got it down they changed everything up with brawl's movement controls.

The HP to Flying ratio in Brawl is also un Smash Bros like high and it's rather irritating to be thrown off the edge at 9280 mph with 72 damage.

I am not against brawl, i am not for melee, while I'll admit i am not that great at the N64 version, i have three Charlotte Wide title's under my belt for melee while i have none for Brawl. My point, Melee takes skill, brawl's tactics are based on computer handicaps and luck.

They're both unbelievably good games which i have played for countless hours.

Just because i want to be on Scar's Stupid people list;
this argument is stupid, im just going to go play brawl.

 

[Proverbs]

DISCLAIMER: I have not read all 4000 posts, but according to the notice on the front, did the minimum requirement by reading the first post.

Second disclaimer: I am not fully decided about my stance on Melee vs. Brawl.

Now, suggestion: Perhaps Brawl's metagame is going to come a lot more from stage opportunities. This may mean that our stage banning might need to be a bit more relaxed. I am currently working on a stage strategy for Ness. Currently I have developed an extremely long list of advantages and opportunities that Ness has on Green Greens that few or no one else has. Perhaps this is where real competitive Brawl lies. Metagame is still being worked on and Brawl might have a few tricks up its sleeve yet. Not all ATs are found yet for Brawl, there are more being discovered. This is the same with Melee. Although people claim that all ATs were found in a month this is not true. Not everything about the YYG was figured out until much later. I know that's more of a glitch, but I consider it an AT as it is still used in tournaments to win. People don't use the black hole (I hope) to win in tournaments.

Furthermore, the ATs seem to be much more character specific. For example: Lucas' zap jump, Ness' PK jump, the ICs chainthrows, et cetera. There are few advanced techs that are universal. This may develop a much more character focused style of playing. I think this is worth being considered.

As characters and stages are much deeper things to be looked into than the general game mechanics (as far as ATs go), more will need to be discovered before real the real judgement on competiveness of Brawl can be determined. Also, metagame does need time to develop, and the more brilliant minds have at least seemingly given up on Brawl. This does not help us at all.

All of that being said, I'm almost 100% sure Brawl will never be as competitive as Melee. But I'm not fully convinced that it won' t be better than Melee. Brawl fixed a lot of things that Melee needed fixed (less emphasis on recovery, more balanced characters, grabbing the stage from both sides, fluidity of the game), and thus Brawl should not be completely thrown out the window. Now I still don't think that Brawl will be as competitive as Melee is, but I think it can get near that level as metagame continues to develop. Already I have seen a ridiculous development in Brawl's competition in the past month or so. I in fact gave up on Brawl for a while due to the lack of competition until I saw more competitive players. I am currently only playing Brawl competitively, but I play all three smash games.

Now, the reason why I endorse Brawl being stuck with is because eventually SSB4 will come out. It's bound to happen no matter what Sakurai thinks or says. Companies want money and they know they can get it from this game. Now I think they're starting to realize the mistakes they made with Brawl, but I also think they should not underestimate what they did right in Brawl. Sure the characters are too floaty and there is a definite lack of hitstun, but the game was made ridiculously fluid. So much more can happen now in a fight in quick succession and much freedom is allowed with Brawl's game mechanics. This is a huge improvement and should be recognized. If we just stick to Melee they might give up on making SSB4, assuming we'll all just stick with Melee.

Now I don't think this should happen. I believe the next game can retain all of (or most of) the improvements from Brawl to Melee AND recover the competitiveness of Melee that was lost in Brawl as well as the more character-specific playstyle of Brawl as well as the more balanced characters.

So what would we end up with?

A game that has more characters than Brawl, is as competitive as Melee, retains a balanced roster, has better hitstun, is more fluid, has incredible depth of characters that provide many character-specific ATs, stage-specific strategies, keeps all of the improvements of Melee to Brawl, fixes Brawl's mistakes, and has no tripping (yes, this needed to be listed on its own!).

So, in order for that to be achieved, Brawl's shortcomings need to be stressed while not abandoning it. This way a new and better game can come out that is, in a way, a mixture of the two, allowing for balanced casual and rigorous competitive gameplay. That is why I am in the defense of Brawl.

And plus, if the whole competitive scene flocks back to Melee, SSB4 might just be some cheesy game which has no depth at all. Sakurai would have succeeded in his attempts to destroy the competitive scene and we would not have a better game. If we show that competition exists even in Brawl and do not give up, the only way to get rid of us will be to appease us and the casual crowd. This, I believe, can be done.

But for that to happen, the competitive scene of Brawl cannot be abandoned.

Who's with me?

^Did anyone see that or have any comments about it? I think preserving the competitive scene for smash throughout each game is important so that the designers will no longer fight against us but with us. Is anyone else of the same persuasion?

Or if I'm completely missing the point, let me know! I might be one of the few people here who WANTS to know when he's wrong.

For the record, I play all three smash games, and I am planning to enter into both Melee and Brawl tournaments. Brawl still has a competitive scene and I think we can carry it through to the next smash games. The thing is, Nintendo needs to stop putting seven years between each game. Smash 64 was released in 1999 and Melee in 2001. They made ridiculous improvements and an amazing game with two years! And now with seven there's barely a difference and a lack of depth of the game? Nintendo seriously needs to reconsider the time between the games. This isn't just because I want a new one (although I am hoping for the next one to be more of a mix of Melee and Brawl--Melee's competitiveness and Brawl's smoothness and character balance), but also so that they don't forget what the smash games are all about in between. It seems that they got it right after seeing everyone loved Smash 64, and then went to go make Melee. But when they waited seven years, we had a game that left a lot to be desired. They just need to take making these games more seriously.

--Anyway, I'm rambling about nothing and probably making no sense as I just woke up. I just wanted some feedback is all.


Oh, and by the way, Scar: After watching 'I Killed Mufasa' I found my third main. I had no idea who it would be until then and after watching your video and seeing you completely own, I picked up Captain Falcon and loved him from that point on. Just thought you'd want to know.

 

[Cardd]

well with 274 posts im sure anything i will say has already been said, but im gonna say it anyway.

I will submit that melee is SLIGHTLY more competitive then brawl, but by a slim margin.

Simply b/c of that fact that there are flat out more things to do in melee which means more options to choose from which means higher difficulty of choosing the correct one which equals a slight difference of competitive gameplay.

That being said, i still prefer brawl for these reasons.

You cannot say that there is no or even minimal skill involved in this game. If you now how to play the game well, you will not lose to someone worse then you consistenly. If you are better then them, you'll proly win 8/10 times, and personally i would like the data that stated there was an average 50% ratio of victories between ppl with similar skill. I find that very hard to beleive. My data comes from taking numbers from consistent fights with my brothers and my arch nemeiss. I also obviosly fight other ppl, but i have collected no data on them. (the actual % is 82% but thats close to the 8/10 times i win with my brothers and the 13/20 i win with my arch nemisis.)

And those who say brawl is based on luck, i would like to ask specifially what luck besides tripping.

And, i can safely say that i have only lost 1 importent match of brawl, ever, since the hour before the midnight it came out, b/c of tripping.

And if no luck is involved, what else can you win a game by put the skill you have?

personally i think more ppl should play with items and random stages (With a few exceptions) because i think it takes more skill to adapt to the everychanging enviroment. But im sure very few ppl agree with me.

 

[Reaver197]

Well, you're wrong in assuming that Sakurai was intentionally setting out to "destroy" the competitive scene, or that Nintendo as a whole really cares that there is one. All they have eyes for is good reviews and sales, which it got plenty of. To them, we're probably just some curious oddity that has conglomerated around the Smash franchise's success; nice to have but ultimately pointless and useless to them. A nice aesthetic to decorate upon their game, so to say, but not something to center it around.

But, all in all, I'm now thinking that debating which game is better is ultimately fruitless. If we want Melee to continue, we have to figure out a way to bring in new people, which will most likely need to be from Brawl. Even if we convince everyone that Melee is the better competitive game, what will become of the Melee scene if we cannot get new people into it? All it can do is dwindle. Debating with and estranging the Brawl community will in the end probably do more harm to the Melee community than good.

 

[thumbswayup]

Was at my friend's place yesterday, after chillin for a bit we had about 2 hours to spend so we turned on the wii. Wasn't even a ****ing contest as to which smash brothers we would play. Popped Melee in, and we decided to use characters we normally don't use. I despise Marth and vowed never to play him for the longest time. I finally gave him a try against my friend's falco and it was....fun. My god, I love that game. It never ceases to amaze me. My falco even got insane, I was doing the craziest shine combos. I don't even use falco that much, but now I will. Melee is so amazing that even if you decide to start a new character from scratch, you'll still have amazing amounts of fun. I hate every single character in Brawl except Diddy Kong and Sonic. I can use ANYONE in Melee and have fun. That game is too good.

 

[battousai555]

Was at my friend's place yesterday, after chillin for a bit we had about 2 hours to spend so we turned on the wii. Wasn't even a ****ing contest as to which smash brothers we would play. Popped Melee in, and we decided to use characters we normally don't use. I despise Marth and vowed never to play him for the longest time. I finally gave him a try against my friend's falco and it was....fun. My god, I love that game. It never ceases to amaze me. My falco even got insane, I was doing the craziest shine combos. I don't even use falco that much, but now I will. Melee is so amazing that even if you decide to start a new character from scratch, you'll still have amazing amounts of fun. I hate every single character in Brawl except Diddy Kong and Sonic. I can use ANYONE in Melee and have fun. That game is too good.

The same thing happened when I played with my friend last night. He always uses Falco and I usually use Marth or Fox, but I decided to use Doc and Ganon after not playing them for a month or so. Somehow they were a lot more fun to play, and I did really well too (Doc+bair edgeguard=LOLZ!).

 

[Demon Kirby]

Meh. I find half the cast in Melee boring as hell, and only find a few characters in it really fun (Jiggs, Marth, Falcon, Peach). In Brawl it's Falco, Ganon and Sonic.

:/

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

The same thing happened when I played with my friend last night. He always uses Falco and I usually use Marth or Fox, but I decided to use Doc and Ganon after not playing them for a month or so. Somehow they were a lot more fun to play, and I did really well too (Doc+bair edgeguard=LOLZ!).

Oh yeah I love the Doc/Ganon matchup. I just love Ganon in general, his spike is so satisfying.

My friends and I (4 of us) together used every single character in the game, and quite well. We'd go random too to mix it up, it's just fun to try everything.

My usual suspects were Fox, CF, M2, DK, Mario, and Pichu... and I dabbled in Peach, Young Link, Kirby, Roy, and Ness. My buddies had similarly large lists.

Every character is just so fun! I reveled in making M2 and Pichu good enough to take on Shieks and Marths, it was great. Our favorite thing was 4 way Falcon free for alls on time, where the goal is to get the most kills. Suicides don't count, so it was a chaotic mess of knees, elbows, and spikes... which often resulted in all four of us dying at once trying to get the last spike in. We were always flying off the edge of the screen. It was CRAZY, especially when someone landed a triple knee. So much speed and chaos! God I miss that...

Sorry that my post doesn't really contribute, but it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling

 

[chansen]

competitive is what you make of it.

 

[LOL_Master]

go to tournaments and play good people, learn.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Well, you're wrong in assuming that Sakurai was intentionally setting out to "destroy" the competitive scene, or that Nintendo as a whole really cares that there is one. All they have eyes for is good reviews and sales, which it got plenty of. To them, we're probably just some curious oddity that has conglomerated around the Smash franchise's success; nice to have but ultimately pointless and useless to them. A nice aesthetic to decorate upon their game, so to say, but not something to center it around.

Lol, we're that one line that shows up in every brawl review. What was it? Simple enough for new players, yet deep enough for the hardcore(yeah right) Thats what we are to Nintendo, an extra, positive line in a review and even if they screw us over, the reviewers, and subsequently the people who read/hear those reviews, will never even realize it, so they'll just keep saying it and assuming its true.

 

[Reaver197]

Lol, we're that one line that shows up in every brawl review. What was it? Simple enough for new players, yet deep enough for the hardcore(yeah right) Thats what we are to Nintendo, an extra, positive line in a review and even if they screw us over, the reviewers, and subsequently the people who read/hear those reviews, will never even realize it, so they'll just keep saying it and assuming its true.

lol, yeah. All these years of work and toil, and what do we get? An extra half a line in a review.

 

[EC_Joey]

Can't trust reviews these days. Remember the Kane & Lynch fiasco?

But back on topic, while Sakurai may not have had a personal vendetta against us, it's hard to ignore what seems like developers going out of their way to make the game less competitive by taking out things as L-Canceling and putting in things like tripping and auto-sweetspot.

 

[Demon Kirby]

lol, yeah. All these years of work and toil, and what do we get? An extra half a line in a review.

And you were expecting what?

 

[rathy Aro]

Don't quote me on this, but Ken (yes the one most of you worship) seemed pretty chill about the lack of technical skill in this game. He seemed kinda like "no ATs? Ok. More mind games". This was a while ago (or was it yesterday?) but maybe he's got a point. The game will just be more focused on mindgames than combos and such. So its slower, its not like people don't have fun playing chess.

I was tired when I wrote this so ignore the incorrectnesses.

 

[Spartan1841]

Both vids are amazing.

Any melee vid proves melee > brawl.

Those words are so full of fail

 

[Aesir]

Don't quote me on this, but Ken (yes the one most of you worship) seemed pretty chill about the lack of technical skill in this game. He seemed kinda like "no ATs? Ok. More mind games". This was a while ago (or was it yesterday?) but maybe he's got a point. The game will just be more focused on mindgames than combos and such. So its slower, its not like people don't have fun playing chess.

I was tired when I wrote this so ignore the incorrectnesses.

I hate when people say this game has more mind games.

How? no ones ever addressed this, option is what makes mind games possible not tech skill.

So please enlighten me how does this game have more mind games.

 

[brawlmaniac]

I hate when people say this game has more mind games.

How? no ones ever addressed this, option is what makes mind games possible not tech skill.

So please enlighten me how does this game have more mind games.

Agree with you here. Just because Brawl is slower than Melee, doesn't mean that it will provide a better opportunity to utilize "mindgames".

 

[Tony_]

Japanese players are better than us and they don't ***** about the loss of certain AT's.

Goes to show how better Japan is than us in Smash. =]

 

[Samochan]

Japanese players are better than us and they don't ***** about the loss of certain AT's.

Goes to show how better Japan is than us in Smash. =]

How's japanese suddenly better than US on smash? Last time I checked, best player in europe, amsah has beaten captan jack on tournament twice and 2 sets last time they played. Then Armada went and 4 stocked masashi's fox on tournament setting and went very even with captain jack. <_< And I think it's safe to assume that there are more good players in US than in europe and japan.

 

[Aesir]

Japanese players are better than us and they don't ***** about the loss of certain AT's.

Goes to show how better Japan is than us in Smash. =]

This isn't 05 where yuo could have made the argument.

US > Japan, we have a stronger competitive scene and better players in higher frequency then they do.

 

[Tony_]

And yet all I see from american players on forum is *****ing about lost AT's when they should just shut up and play the game as it is.

 

[Zankoku]

I think we're succeeding very much in playing the game as it is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CPcXrYv1p-Y