Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Clai]

I don't feel that Melee had a single useless character. There were only those characters that were used less often than others.

This is so true. While there aren't going to be any Pichu or Mewtwo players destroying the scene any time soon, they were designed that they could at least compete with the other characters if played correctly. Every time I pick up Captain Falcon in Brawl and can't pull off anything because he has no priority, I cry inside.

In my opinion, this dumbed down edgeguarding and recovering. While this made grabbing the edge easier, edgehogging's usefulness was toned down.

Grabbing the edge from both sides did not dumb down edgeguarding (Unless you're a Mario player). The fact that you can't hang on the edge and then roll with the correct timing while you watch the opponent fall off dumbed it down only slightly, as you can still edgehog effectively if you can time your edgehog so that your opponent's recovery doesn't hit you. What dumbed down edgeguarding is this game's crazy DI and the severe lack of aerial moves with downward trajectories. Seriously, every move done in attempts to edgeguard just send the opponent to the same position he was in the first place, which really defeats the purpose of edgeguarding.

If by "even" you mean the characters are on a more even playing field, I'll have to disagree with you. Brawl's tiers, while not defined clearly yet, will most likely be even more static and unchanging than Melee's tiers.

Only time will tell, but I think Brawl's character metagame and tier lists will be fluid and change just like Melee's tier lists. Snake and Metaknight will be stopped, just like Fox and Falco in Melee.

The following statements were not results from the words of anyone in this forum. This was done as a result of my own observations.

1) Super Smash Brothers Melee is the greatest game in existence.
2) No, seriously, Melee is the most fantastic game ever. EVER!
3) This revelation does not make me like Brawl any less. Brawl is also a great game and I enjoy them both.
4) Playing as Captain Falcon in Melee makes me manlier. Playing as Captain Falcon in Brawl makes me cry.
5) I cannot stand Melee Kirby. It's just awful.
6) Melee Ganon with Brawl Ganon's Flame Choke and Sparta Kick would be the unquestioned coolest character in any fighting game that ever spawned.

What did I do? I played Melee. Yes, even against level 8 computers (because Melee level 9 computers are just lolz), I realized again how awesome Melee is. I seriously want to play Melee with people. Brawl too, I just want to play with other people again.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The air-dodge techniques consisted of: wavedashing and wavelanding.

Wavelanding was a quicker way to land on platforms but it typically did more to benefit characters like Ganondorf than, say, Falco.

Wavedashing is a spacing tool and part of the waveshine. It's only used for normal movement by Ice Climbers and Luigi, typically.

L-Canceling didn't necessarily make the game more exciting, it just added more possibilities, much in the same way autocanceling does in Brawl, though in a more limited way.

What I am sure of from watching a few melee matches is this: they are exciting because the players find it rewarding to rapidly move and attack, and the wave tricks significantly increased the speed of a melee match.

You should know that I never learned to wave-anything, nor even shorthop in melee, because in truth I actually was always a camper, and benefitted greatly both in character (Pikachu) buffs and playstyle change. I also dislike these trick; partially because they seemed to make the game more difficult and less fun and partially because they were essential to 0%-to-death combos, which I also hate. However, I have noticed that the game can be sped up nearly to melee speed, with combos occuring before spot and air dodging is possible, and pseudo-combos - where the opponent is hit and misjudges your next attack in his response dodge and is thus hit again. While I recognize that the game has some less "interesting" elements that actually benefit me, saying the melee-esque style tricks and fights don't exist or are too hard to do is a bit of a myth.

 

[BIG C]

Yes, actually. Things were made smoother, you could react faster, the roster was evened so that there are few to no useless characters, the roster also added many characters, the graphics were improved, you can now grab the edge from BOTH sides(seasoned fighters WOULD turn around if it were to save their lives), no directional airdodging (it makes more sense, really, which is why I like it. Why couldn't you dodge multiple times in the air? And why would you be able to give yourself momentum at the last minute? This also, however, removed one of our best spacing tools), and the ledge grab range was widened (I don't think it needed to be as wide as Brawl's, but you don't have to practically inside the ledge before grabbing it as was done in Melee).

So, yeah, a lot of things were fixed and made better. The game was made more smooth and more even. However with that they also made gameplay less competitive and the game has become...well, let's face it, more boring. My friends and I used to play Melee for hours upon hours and never get bored. But with Brawl...I can have somewhat the same experience, but have maybe one half or three fourths the level of fun. Unfortunately, Brawl became a watered down version of Melee where it really could have been Melee 2.0. That I would have preferred. Same level of competition with gameplay that was smoothed around the edges. That's all that was needed, really. But as it is, hitstun was reduced ridiculously and the game was made more of a party game. In my opinion, it fulfilled many of my wishes as for how it fixed Melee but disappointed me in what it took out.

ok first off this is proclaiming I wasn't good at melee I like brawl cuz they noobed it up. As far as useless characters in Melee truly there weren't any Chu Dat and Azen are proof of this Azen winnning tournies with luigi, pika, and link. and Chu placing extremely well with his y. link and Chu's Pichu beat Plank in I'd say a friendly but I'm not sure and anyone that can beat a high level sheik with Pichu is just ridic with that character. Gimpyfish did incredibly well with Bowser and Taj with Mewtwo that's 3 of the worst characters in Melee being played and keeping up with the top tiers. I would like to see a sonic,falcon, or ganon win a tourny where there are G&W, meatyknights, snakes, and ROBs then I'd believe this lack of useless chars.

Everything about the edge game is dumbed down to an extreme that wasn't anywhere near cool.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I would be careful with Sonic. His air game is superior, he is very fast, and can be untouchable in the right hands. A good sonic user can destroy a good snake user because Sonic is simply too fast.

Also - do you know anything about the Falcon and Gannon game? atmittedly, I know nothing of this to legitly comment, just that they don't have so great an air game anymore.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Chu beat plank in the finals of a tourney with his Pichu, but according to plank that was when he sucked at the game(GOOD ENOUGH TO GET TO THE FINALS PLANK)

 

[RDK]

I would be careful with Sonic. His air game is superior, he is very fast, and can be untouchable in the right hands. A good sonic user can destroy a good snake user because Sonic is simply too fast.

Also - do you know anything about the Falcon and Gannon game? atmittedly, I know nothing of this to legitly comment, just that they don't have so great an air game anymore.

What are you talking about? Sonic has a terrible air game; predictable to the point of being useless. Especially against a Snake who's good with projectiles.

Also, lol @ Plank johns.

 

[EC_Joey]

What I am sure of from watching a few melee matches is this: they are exciting because the players find it rewarding to rapidly move and attack, and the wave tricks significantly increased the speed of a melee match.

Laugh out loud... Wavedashing is not done just for the hell of it and feeling a sense of accomplishment, its utility has many applications from spacing to baiting to getting onto platforms faster. While it made moving a set distance much easier, L-canceling has much more of an impact on the speed of a match.

I also dislike these trick; partially because they seemed to make the game more difficult and less fun and partially because they were essential to 0%-to-death combos, which I also hate.

Certainly wavedashing is hard to get used to at first, but I think very few people who can wavedash on command would say it makes the game less fun. Guaranteed 0% to death combos do not exist, it is the person getting combo'd who is at fault for not using DI correctly or air-dodging at the right time. Captain Falcon has the most wide variety of combos, but none of them require the wavedash to pull off, only L-canceling.

However, I have noticed that the game can be sped up nearly to melee speed, with combos occuring before spot and air dodging is possible, and pseudo-combos - where the opponent is hit and misjudges your next attack in his response dodge and is thus hit again. While I recognize that the game has some less "interesting" elements that actually benefit me, saying the melee-esque style tricks and fights don't exist or are too hard to do is a bit of a myth.

The game can not be sped up, unless you play a Special Versus Mode. Combos before air-dodging is possible? I recall that you can actually air dodge to interrupt Marth's f-air spam, so I'm inclined to believe most "combos" can be interrupted with air-dodging. What are these "melee-esque style tricks" you're talking about?

 

[Reaver197]

Halloween Captain, why are you here debating if you do not have enough knowledge nor understanding of the game you're arguing against?

 

[EC_Joey]

What are you talking about? Sonic has a terrible air game; predictable to the point of being useless. Especially against a Snake who's good with projectiles.

Also, lol @ Plank johns.

He's got terrible priority too.

I recall Plank claiming that he didn't DI any of Chu's combos because he wanted to get more people to moneymatch him.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Look up Lucario, Variola. Those guys can show you some impressive vids.

Reaver, you might be correct. So I'll stick to what I do know.

I know that there were a lot of melee glitches, and all of them were people taking advantage of a faulty game engine for an edge. Because these glitches were universal, any character could face any other character in theory. Also, these glitches significantly increased the pace of the game. So people accepted the flaws as an essential part of Smash Bros.

I believe that Brawl is terribly unbalanced in certain ways, partially because of the lack of universal glitches, or ATs as you call them, although it took me a long time to admit it.

If your were to go these glitches however, I believe Brawl is a more balanced game than melee, because of the multiple nerfs and buffs to even it out. However, it is unbalanced, as Link and Toon link are a testiment to.

Finally, I believe Brawl is played more like melee was intended to play by the removal of these glitches, and the increased ease allowed when attempting technique like shorthopping, as well as the addition of backwards edge-grabbing, make the game not only more noob-friendly, but also more enjoyable all-around, because of a more inviting off-ledge game and less though put into the remaining AT's.

 

[EC_Joey]

I have little to no interest in Lucario. I don't see much potential there apart from camping.

Edit: Also, don't make me watch Brawl videos, they put me half to sleep.

 

[LOL_Master]

camping is the only strategy

 

[EC_Joey]

camping is the only strategy

Poor Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Well, you don't HAVE to camp. You could just abuse the ******** amount of chain grabs.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, you don't HAVE to camp. You could just abuse the ******** amount of chain grabs.

QFT.

10Penguinhammers

 

[MidnightAsaph]

*Did not read any more pages than the first post*

Your hating on internet people is kind of sad. You ACTUALLY posted the people that annoyed you. That's kind of immature in my opinion.


Firstly, games can't be competitive, only people can. Secondly, people adapt the rules of the game to BE competitive. Both Melee and Brawl had to be adapted to make competitive. Last time I checked, Melee had items too.

The ONLY thing that makes Brawl a less adaptable game is the lack of ATs and skill for the potential for each player.

Absolutely Idiotic Analogy:

It's like filling a cup from a jug. Pro-players had a huge jug (full of skill) and a big cup (game), so the amount of skill they poured into it was diminished because the Melee cup was bigger. In other words:

Say I have three cups worth of skill and I'm filling the (game) other cup with all three cups. A pro player comes along with his six cups, and he only is able to fill the other cup with it up with 3/6 of his potential...

POTENTIAL

Competitive, Compete, Competition

All underline the familiar "FTW" (for the win), and with less potential, it is harder to win (at least the 'compete' words all mean two or more parties striving for a similar goal, not just winnin). If Brawl had a larger variety of moves--ATs--then it would be more of a competition, rather than the wreck that Sakurai calls 'fun'. In conclusion, Melee is a game of competition whereas Brawl was made to be more 'fun' and fluffy.

Simple as that. No more argument than that. If I've repeated obvious aspects of the argument, DO NOT REPLY with immaturity. Just let your eyes forget what they saw... *glides away*

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If your not gonna see the Lucario vids., then at least recognize Metaknight and GW, Variola.
They are not known for their camping.

Well put, Asaph. Melee tricks only take you so far in Brawl. i'm jst glad I spent the past seven years simply on fundamentals, because they really paid off.

 

[EC_Joey]

If your not gonna see the Lucario vids., then at least recognize Metaknight and GW, Variola.
They are not known for their camping.

You still haven't given me any evidence of "melee-esque tricks" or certain situations where you can "speed up" Brawl to the point that it's like Melee.

 

[LOL_Master]

but most people camp anyways...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Variola, I can't prove to you anything if you refuse to look at the evidence. A good Lucario can combo rediculously well. Actually, Ike has some similar qualities, but his sword is so slow it brings the game down (I am refering to his spike).

 

[LOL_Master]

If your not gonna see the Lucario vids., then at least recognize Metaknight and GW, Variola.
They are not known for their camping.

Well put, Asaph. Melee tricks only take you so far in Brawl. i'm jst glad I spent the past seven years simply on fundamentals, because they really paid off.

Honestly, your entire argument is just stupid. Spending teh past seven years simple on fundamentals??? What the hell are you talking about, learning all the character's movesets? I would like for you to elaborate on everything you are saying, especially the 'melee tricks'.

 

[Reaver197]

Variola, I can't prove to you anything if you refuse to look the evidence.

lol, wtf.

10chars.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Honestly, your entire argument is just stupid. Spending teh past seven years simple on fundamentals??? What the hell are you talking about, learning all the character's movesets? I would like for you to elaborate on everything you are saying, especially the 'melee tricks'.

A melee trick, as I define it, is not a glitch, but combos which brings up the speed of the game. characters like metaknight and Lucario are good at them, others not so much.

Instead of learning wavedashing, I learned how to anticipate the other person's moves better than anyone I know. I also learned some good camping and spamming tactics which transferred over well. That is what i mean by fundamentals.

P.S. what I meant by evidence is the set of very impresive videos involving combos. Generally, by my standards, following a person as he is flying off the stage and hitting him quicky after the previous attack is a melee trick.

 

[EC_Joey]

I'm still lost. Are you saying combos are "melee tricks"? How does Lucario perform at the speed of Melee? So far you've given no evidence.

Edit: Combos that speed up the game? Combos shorten individual matches, but it's L-canceling and fast falling that sped up Melee. There are maybe a few combinations of moves that Metaknight can do that can be considered a true combo, but even those can be interrupted through air dodging and whatnot.

 

[BIG C]

ok truthfully halloween captain lucario can pull some sick combos i know i've seen it done but he really is the only one that can. metaknight camps it's just viewed differently by ppl most metaknights are all like run in jump back fair not really approaching or use the tornado. and gw definitely camps and just sits there throwing out bairs not approaching until they can.

brawl is basically waiting for the most oppourtune moment to attack this is why most people don't like it because everyone just sits there doing nothing but their best move until they can get in. In melee you could compare these tactics to dash dance camping like falcon's did dash dancing back and forth til their opponent comes in and whiffs an attack so they can grab into a combo. BUT in melee it would happen within 10 seconds instead of 30 secs to a min.

this essentially is brawl, being patient because no one wants to go in to get hit.

 

[RDK]

A melee trick, as I define it, is not a glitch, but combos which brings up the speed of the game. characters like metaknight and Lucario are good at them, others not so much.

Instead of learning wavedashing, I learned how to anticipate the other person's moves better than anyone I know. I also learned some good camping and spamming tactics which transferred over well. That is what i mean by fundamentals.

Being good at Melee is not just about being good with techs, but it's about being creative and adaptive, and, to a degree, being able to predict.

So basically you're saying you're just like the rest of the hard-working Melee players who became good with techs, only worse?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You know, Big C, you're right.

That is one of my favorite things about Brawl in a way, although a lot of people will instantly disagree.

Also, RDK, I really don't care, but I do know just how little those hard-workers really achieve from how easily the lesser ones can be beat in spite of their tricks. Most of the techs don't really seem to matter to Pikachu partially because of his lack of slide. I also am aware of how much a character can benefit. However, I am much more defencive than your average melee player, so I don't move around except to defend and attack.

Its actually a flaw in my game, which greatly helped me in Brawl.

 

[BIG C]

well thnx for saying I'm right and that's why me and most ppl dislike the game especially compared to melee.

 

[EC_Joey]

I do know just how little those hard-workers really achieve from how easily the lesser ones can be beat in spite of their tricks. Most of the techs don't really seem to matter to Pikachu partially because of his lack of slide.

These people that you're referring to are those that aren't yet familiar with appropriate usage of "tricks" in a match. Just because you can beat them doesn't mean they haven't achieved anything, it's just that they still have to learn what situations are appropriate for certain techniques. Pikachu has a decent wavedash, actually. That's no reason to not learn L-canceling in Melee, though.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Understand, these are the same people who told me Pikachu doesn't have enough slide to wavedash well, so you may have a point.

Embarasingly, I am also not terribly familiar with L-cancelling. All I know about it is that it is a glitch much like wavedashing, that I don't believe I have ever recognized as match-changing in a player. Is it some kind of dodge to remove ending lag?

 

[EC_Joey]

Halloween Captain, please stick to commentaries on Brawl, because it's obvious that you lack experience in competitive Melee. You can't really compare Brawl to Melee when you haven't delved into Melee's competitive scene as much as most of the community has.

Edit: *Facepalm*

L-canceling a technique that involves pushing L or R at the moment you hit the ground after executing an aerial attack. By doing this, you reduce the landing lag by half, allowing you to do another move sooner than had you not L-canceled. By L-canceling aerials consistently, you can string aerials together quickly by SHFFLing, which stands for Short Hop Fast Fall L cancel. This is why you can combo in Melee, because you can execute aerial attacks quickly.

As far as I know, it is NOT a glitch, and was put in Melee intentionally. This was also present in SSB64, but it's called Z-canceling. Thanks to Z-canceling, 0% to death combos were achievable. This isn't really the case in Melee because you can DI out of combos if you know what you're doing.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You are absolutely correct. You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling, but I am always going to be a Brawl fan, because I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users. Since these tactic that I don't like seem to be essentail to Brawl, I am going to leave this thread.

 

[Reaver197]

You are absolutely correct. You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling, but I am always going to be a Brawl fan, because I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users.

You really don't belong here then. Even Brawl has these "hack tactics" (as you would probably call them), and people are trying to find even more.

L-canceling, by the way, refers to pressing either the L or R button as you land when performing an aerial. As a result, the lag you incur is reduced from what it normally would've been. It was also in 64, by virtue of the Z button.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You are absolutely correct. You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling, but I am always going to be a Brawl fan, because I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users.

Exit this thread. Now.

You have just lost all ****ing credibility.

>____>

Edit: Excuse the blatant flaming, guys. But that was just preposterous. Hell, even to a lesser extent, I apologize to the guy I directed it to.

Even so, it's not exactly kosher nor is it conducive to a solid debate when statements like this are made.

Smooth Criminal

 

[BIG C]

for real colonel christmas come on. hack tactics??? like l cancel was in the first game so it was clearly a deliberate thing. WD they saw in dev but didn't know it would be abused how it is. never the less these tactics are in no way bad or should be looked down on I'm sure if you were a true competitior you would understand.

 

[RDK]

L-cancelling was INTENTIONAL. Sakurai even talked about how to do it on the SSB64 website, and it was purposefully left in Melee, and also wavedashing (to an extent). "Glitches" or "hack tactics" they are not.

I mean, seriously, "hack tactics"? LMAO, gimme a break. You're a perfect example as how to get laughed off of Smashboards.

 

[EC_Joey]

You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling

This is because you edited your post to include L-canceling, but not before I had already replied.

I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

This is what 99% of people who look down on advanced techs think, that they would be the best if those people who used advanced techs played you in a match without using them. This is wishful thinking and just plain stupid.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users.

The only "hack tactics" I can think of in Melee involve abusing glitches that give you an instant win or KO, which includes things like IC's freeze glitch. Apart from those things, everything is fair game if it is not banned in tournament play, and if you choose to put an invisible restriction on yourself to not use these techniques, that's your own problem.

 

[WastingPenguins]

*Peeks into thread* Competitive Melee players are STILL arguing with scrubs about whether or not L-canceling is a glitch? Can't we just let them live peacefully on in their misinformed fantasy land?

 

[debaser]

The game was made more smooth

I disagree with this a lot. brawl is clunky and awkward

 

[RDK]

*Peeks into thread* Competitive Melee players are STILL arguing with scrubs about whether or not L-canceling is a glitch? Can't we just let them live peacefully on in their misinformed fantasy land?

"Treat the n00b as you would your own child, for his ignorance is your pride".

-Simna Ibn Sind