Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[RDK]

I love chess too. Its just not smash.

Right now, your seeing the last waves of fandom throughout the country. Fans are attempting to keep their game alive out of dissatisfaction with the sequel. Eventually, the fevor will die down, but will never be totally extinguished. Melee is the "middle one" of the series, attached to the unpopular gamecube; in a few years, I imagine SSB64 and its more popular system will surpass it, as long as there are still enough working N64s.



Key word: sucked.

Thanks for agreeing with me. Now maybe you'll get somewhere.

And you're telling me you think the N64 is more popular than the Gamecube right now? And even that's beside the point. As Ankoku stated, you can play Melee on the Wii.

As to your question about the future of Melee, I'm not the one who should be making that kind of judgment. No one should. All you can do is to take initiative and try and keep your community alive, no matter what camp you're in.

All I know is that a superbly deep and competitive game is being tossed aside for a shallow Maro-Party-esque kiddie pleaser, albeit a newer and shinier one. The ironic thing is that Brawl will probably suffer the same fate of other poorly engineered, shallow games of its kind: forgotten about as soon as the next big Nintendo title comes out.

Also, have you noticed how much the numbers of people using Brawl's wifi has diminished since its opening weeks? There used to be so many people on WFC that the servers would crash. Now there's the occasional odd person on every so often.

In any case, Sakurai got what he wanted. Brawl is a n00b-friendly party game that appeals to casuals and sold record-breaking numbers. But I know from experience that the crowd Sakurai tried so hard to please will grow bored with it and move on faster than the competitive community would've.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Proof, coreygames statement was only a perfect example of egotism. At least Ankoku, Yuna, and some other Brawl dissenters are trying to put up an argument, not toting there notoriety but providing an actual argument. Scar has provided alot of good points however his non-willingness to see the other side of the argument is kind of sad.

Edit: other then that last paragraph nice post RDK, couldn't agree more.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

RDK is right about one thing: I will always be more accepting of the new game, and view people who refuse to go to the next gen. as somewhat closed-minded. You can love both games, you can drop Brawl when SSB4 comes out, but refusing to accept Brawl because it is not melee kinda bothers me.

By the way, RDK, the key word reference meant you used the word in an inappropriate setting. If you hate Brawl because of campers, fine. If you hate Brawl because of crappy online, melee didn't have any. If you hate Brawl because its a kiddy game, you'll have to explain yourself, because I thought that the whole point of Smash was to bring of of Nintendo's characters together, many of them from "kiddy games."

 

[Corigames]

Proof, coreygames statement was only a perfect example of egotism. At least Ankoku, Yuna, and some other Brawl dissenters are trying to put up an argument, not toting there notoriety but providing an actual argument. Scar has provided alot of good points however his non-willingness to see the other side of the argument is kind of sad.

Edit: other then that last paragraph nice post RDK, couldn't agree more.

Oh no, thanks for pointing that out. I was clearly trying to strengthen my point with hard based facts and point after point of evidence. No though, you saw straight through all of that...


Seriously. This is why I hate new people. This. This overwhelming amount of sheer stupidity. No, not ignorance. I'm not going to use a euphemism to describe how irrationally dip ****ted people here on the boards are these days when they first join. It was never like this before Brawl. I blame Brawl. I blame America. I blame a lack of any sibilance to recognizing intelligence at even its most basic, simplistic form even when trying my hardest to discover the slightest sliver of it in one, single new person.

I hate them all. I hate you all. Brawl sucks.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Yeah don't actually refute anything just flame and keep adding NOTHING to the thread. Call me what you want, if you were being sarcastic or funny to prove a point you failed hard.

 

[Demon Kirby]

And we hate you back. <3

Honestly, you are a person that never adds anything other than floods of hate to threads. What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Hate is a horrible waste of emotion, he's a hater. Let him hate, it only really hurts him.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Coreygames: Way to use solid evidence and expert opinion to defend your views, and nice job using examples of what you are trying to explain.

(Please tell me everyone understood the sarcasm)

Forget it, Roland is right.
The question now is, is their anyone who believes Brawl is more competitive than melee?

 

[Corigames]

Click on my signature then you unworthy pile of miserable wasted stem cells. Then you will get the arguments (most of them) that I have been arguing in repetition since the fruition of the twisted abomination that is this game. If you ever want to argue that I don't contribute anything, that only proves further that you have failed to search out my points. I have made them. They are there. I'm just tired of repeating myself to the next new guy every day.

I would have a copy + paste on my desktop for this discussion, but it seems that I am away from it, and that makes me sad.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Obvious sarcasm is obvious, but when you say a game sucks then say someone beat you the first time they picked up the game it doesn't really sound sarcastic in the context. Ignore the flames and try to bring something new to the argument since so many people want to ignore the plethora of videos proving brawl doesn't have to be a campfest.

Well how about you bring up something other then middle school insults and resorting to flaming when you can't bring up valid arguments in their stead. Act like an adult and maybe you will get treated like one, and explain how your post saying you lost to a new player was sarcastic in the context it was originally in. Nah just keep flaming and proving me right that your nothing but a hater =/, makes me feel bad for you unless your actually a teenager then I just hope you grow out of it.

 

[BIG C]

RDK is right about one thing: I will always be more accepting of the new game, and view people who refuse to go to the next gen. as somewhat closed-minded. You can love both games, you can drop Brawl when SSB4 comes out, but refusing to accept Brawl because it is not melee kinda bothers me.

By the way, RDK, the key word reference meant you used the word in an inappropriate setting. If you hate Brawl because of campers, fine. If you hate Brawl because of crappy online, melee didn't have any. If you hate Brawl because its a kiddy game, you'll have to explain yourself, because I thought that the whole point of Smash was to bring of of Nintendo's characters together, many of them from "kiddy games."

the thing is colonel christmas is that ppl don't hate brawl cuz it's not melee they hate it because it took everything that was good about the series out. Good, cool combos, gone, having to play smart and mindgame while still being technically able, gone, and the good edge game of trying to survive and for the other person to kill them is gone.

you don't need tech skill the most technical thing in brawl is like the mortarslide and wow o wow hitting down then up on my c stick is soooooooo hard. the ability to combo is destroyed by lack of hitstun and autocanceled moves don't really help either. Even if you get a 40% combo off it doesn't matter. Why? because ppl don't die in Brawl oh wait i can't generalize here GOOD ppl don't die until upwards of 150%. Most of tourny chars played can recover to the middle of the stage if their opponent tries to edgeguard them. all in all, all the things ppl liked in melee are gone.

Brawl is stilla fun game but, the only way I see it to be a tourny game is when there are only 6-9 stages selectable because the gay stages in the game are so detrimental to some characters they shouldn't even be in the game.

Summary: If they would have built upon melee's greatness instead of removing everything that was good in melee, kept the tech and the combos. they could have added tripping new airdodge system and all and everyone would have been satisfied well most everyone.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I guess I shouldn't have said never. I remember you posting your arguments, long ago, but now you add nothing but hate and seem obsessed with flaming people. Seriously.

 

[Ori_bro]

Lol, Halloween Captain just killed himself



Brawl is just another game these days that has sacrificed good game play for "good" graphics. Melee looks better I think, because it's not all over stuffed with ****

this is what i think 2 but i like all 3 and play melee and brawl equally

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Ive seen some insightful posts from coreygames and I've seen plenty of childish flaming too. The good can outweigh the bad but someone needs to learn to relax more.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I know very well that Brawl isn't always a campfest - Lucario is one of my favorite characters, and he can practically 0-to-death combo. The question remains though: can you honestly say Brawl, designed specifically with the intention to be a party game by a man fully aware and disturbed by the overly competitive aspects of melee, is more competitive than melee? The question IS NOT is Brawl a piece of trash.

 

[Corigames]

I guess I shouldn't have said never. I remember you posting your arguments, long ago, but now you add nothing but hate and seem obsessed with flaming people. Seriously.

When intelligently posting fails, I will resort to alternative methods. I'm not going to beat a horse to death expecting some miracle to shine bright and blind the stupid out of all those watching.

If you don't get my point from me being civil, then maybe you'll get my point when there is someone shoving it down your throat. That's how my opinion has changed.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Right now no, melee wins; the future can go many ways. Us with realistic sized egos don't pretend to know everything. I think it has hope as long as enough people can get behind it and move the metagame along.

Edit: So mindless flaming is your plan B? Why even post if your really that secure in your opinion don't even post. Flaming while not at least having some credibility just makes you look like an idiot. Did you really lose to a new player picking MK? you never clarified.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Roland, being a Lucario user, you know about combos and Lucario's odd abilities. Coreygames, being a Pit user, you can spam anyone for hours. Keep that in mind during the discussion.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Nah I wanna stay from stereotypes that I can't back up. He has proved to be a hater so far though>.> I've actually been playing around alot with Zelda, Fox, and Wolf lately. My girlfriend is hardcore into kirby and shes pretty good against my Lucario and Fox but she doesn't know how to handle Zelda very well. I want to get her and her sister tournament ready by the end of summer.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Roland, your talking to the guy who made threads specifically on how character culture and psycology are related.

Its simple. Corey is a Pit user, and Pit is the best spammer in the game, therefore, Corey thinks of Brawl as Spamming. You are a Lucario user, and thus the matches are more interesting because of High risk, high return. I wouldn't be surprised if Corey's dislike of Brawl is at least somewhat related to his character.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I can see the logic behind that because most people are sheep =/ but I don't like to hardcase people like that. I like Lucario but what drew me to him in the beginning was nothing more then I thought he was awesome. The rest of the love developed after that, Pit has way more going for him then spamming (although his arrows can be pretty successfully spammed)

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not exactly sure of how Lucario is supposed to be high risk, high return. He's got priority and range and lingering hitboxen, a chargeable projectile, decent weight and recovery, and an utilt that works like Marth's on steroids. Seems to be the perfect design for a defensive character that can last a while and actually get stronger over time.

 

[Corigames]

Roland, your talking to the guy who made threads specifically on how character culture and psycology are related.

Its simple. Corey is a Pit user, and Pit is the best spammer in the game, therefore, Corey thinks of Brawl as Spamming. You are a Lucario user, and thus the matches are more interesting because of High risk, high return. I wouldn't be surprised if Corey's dislike of Brawl is at least somewhat related to his character.

But I played Samus in Brawl and I love Melee. I think you just over analyzed.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

It depends on who your fighting, player and character. Lucario's pretty flexible, I try to play and get good with all of the cast. My girlfriend actually makes me play defensively some of the time with her jiggly, until 70ish percent>.>

Edit: I miss melee samus=( and sheik

 

[The Halloween Captain]

To Ankoku:

I guess its a matter of definition.

The closer you get to losing, the longer the hitboxes extend and the more powerful the attacks. He is steriotyped as high-risk, high-return (by Smash Dojo), but in truth is an unusual (and I think underestimated) combination of defensive and offensive maneuvers, with awesome comboability at low percentages, awesome KO potential at high percentages, and can be used about equally well offencively and defencively. Lucario users like to swap between offence and defencive for the sake of mindgames, by the way.

P.S.: Corey - if you mained Samus in Brawl, why did you declare you favorite as Pit on Smash Boards?

 

[shogun]

This forum will always be full of idiocy, anyway Brawl is no where on par to a "real" fighting game, Sakurai himself said he took the glitches out on purpose to accommodate everyone(mostly casual players), Brawl is a game to have fun with, and enjoy.

Melee was meant to be the same, it was just a coincidence that those glitches were in there.

If you want to play a game that is meant to be complex, and somewhat for tournaments, then try capcom fighters, or guilty gear.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

This forum will always be full of idiocy, anyway Brawl is no where on par to a "real" fighting game, Sakurai himself said he took the glitches out on purpose to accommodate everyone(mostly casual players), Brawl is a game to have fun with, and enjoy.

Melee was meant to be the same, it was just a coincidence that those glitches were in there.

If you want to play a game that is meant to be complex, and somewhat for tournaments, then try capcom fighters, or guilty gear.

>.> no it's full of idiocy because of posts that are either flames, or flagrant flamebait ( like this one) Alot of people are actually arguing pretty civilly which is an amazing sight on the internet.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Shogun, that is the most intelligent thing I've heard tonight (except for all the flames). Too bad I'm a competitive Brawler.

 

[Vaul]

Embarasingly, I am also not terribly familiar with L-cancelling. All I know about it is that it is a glitch much like wavedashing, that I don't believe I have ever recognized as match-changing in a player. Is it some kind of dodge to remove ending lag?

You should know that I never learned to wave-anything, nor even shorthop in melee, because in truth I actually was always a camper, and benefitted greatly both in character (Pikachu) buffs and playstyle change. I also dislike these tricks; partially because they seemed to make the game more difficult and less fun and partially because they were essential to 0%-to-death combos, which I also hate.

Lucario is one of my favorite characters, and he can practically 0-to-death combo.

Thank you for maintaining the common stereotypes of a typical 2008 join date member. And I used to get frustrated whenever my arguments where immediately dismissed before being read. Now I know.

I understand where you're coming from (I guess), but I feel your merely stating your opinions rather than actually 'debating' the issue as you claim to pursue. Virtually everything you've pointed out as either been completely subjective, extremely defensive (Melee will be lucky to save 1/10th of its glory? Seriously?), and expressing your general ignorance of Melee (not that its necessarily a bad thing, just that Melee happens to be half of the topic at hand). Although you argue rigorously and stand up for what you believe in.....everything you say is simply unconvincing. I'm not being close-minded about what you say---I enjoy both games and feel one should play whatever they want to play, even though Brawl's popularity will not be quashed anytime soon---its moreso that from an objective perspective....I can't find anything you've said to be credible. It's just plain unconvincing. Arguing over a topic is one thing. Debating the issue is another.

EDIT: Similar to the Melee-Brawl transition has been that of the Mortal Kombat series. They went from one of the greatest fighting games of all time, Mortal Combat 3, and tried to be innovative and creative when in reality they virtually destroyed everything fans loved about the series (which is why MK3 is still played on XBox Live competitively today). If the new one for the Wii which features DC comic characters doesn't return to the 2D gameplay standard....I swear to God I'll ******* **** the living **** and ********the creators completely ********* with a monkey wrench. Bad News: It's already rated T for Teen. Wow.

I mean CMON, TELL ME THIS ISN'T COOL AND ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xa5X4NNfFiE

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Eh, not really all that cool to me. It's impressive but true 0-death combo's that rely on landing one-hit and can be used to kill everyone make a game boring.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Proof, coreygames statement was only a perfect example of egotism. At least Ankoku, Yuna, and some other Brawl dissenters are trying to put up an argument, not toting there notoriety but providing an actual argument. Scar has provided alot of good points however his non-willingness to see the other side of the argument is kind of sad.

Edit: other then that last paragraph nice post RDK, couldn't agree more.

Actually,I completely agree with RDK's notions. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the longevity of a casual game.

I can understand that it seems unfair to put more emphasis on a single side of an argument, but the truth of the matter is that the other side of the argument is segregated into many opinionated cults. A mass of Brawl supporters are different from the next. If you look at the Melee supporters, it's almost definite that they all fall into the same category. By category, we have:

Know-it-all casual

A new player that speaks in definites and assumes a position of logic in a community he doesn't have extended knowledge of; rationalizes things based off of small amounts of information.

Anti-competitive casual

A new player that thinks Brawl shouldn't be a competitive game from the start.

The "Mule"

A player that believes that the game should be played according to Nintendo's childish demographic.

"Melee 2.0"

I don't think I need to say anything else. This is pretty much the only argument they use as support. Sure, Brawl isn't "Melee 2.0", But how much do you expect a successor of a game to change from it's original? Seriously...

"Melee was full of glitches" casual

completely denies all rational though and designates Melee as a glitchy game that requires no skill to operate. The most commonly designated characters in their arguments is Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik. Most designated technique is the Wavedash and L-cancel.

Competitive supporter/ Comparison

The player that compares Melee's lifespan with Brawl; Expecting history to repeat itself without evidence to support their claims.

The Brawl supporters are a massive conglomerate of people who refuse to acknowledge the faults in the game. Competitive value can only exist in Brawl so long before people eventually grow tired of the same slow paced gameplay.

It's very unfortunate that our community was excluded from the ranks of Nintendo, but going and denying Brawl's faults won't help it's cause. I'm also hoping that the Transition back to Melee will occur, but, simultaneously allow for Brawl tournaments to occur for those who want to play them.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Eh, not really all that cool to me. It's impressive but true 0-death combo's that rely on landing one-hit and can be used to kill everyone make a game boring.

True. But have you considered the probability of landing a variable hit and being able to continue the combo are extremely minimal. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that it isn't difficult or situational to pull off, giving human reflexes. Now, tell me how many times do you think you'll see that being done on an actual opponent?

 

[Reaver197]

What are we even arguing now? What kind of people other posters are? The point of this thread was to evaluate and debate how competitive Brawl and Melee are, and which one is the better competitive choice. If that argument is finished, we really ought to stop biting at each other's necks and figure out how to organize the community/competitive scene.

End this silly charade.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

I agree almost completely phoenix, I accept it's faults for what they are but I don't believe the game to be ****ed for them. People's short-sightedness on viable strategies do not count as faults until I see a majority of tourney vids won through excessive camping or spamming that side of the argument holds no water. I'm up for whichever game rises out of the rubble really, I will play melee with melee players and brawl with brawl players.

Edit: I don't know much about the MK scene obviously>.<

Sounds good to me Reaver, more people need to go to AlphaZealot's youtube or just watch some brawl video's and see that good portion of their arguments against brawl are destroyed.

 

[Eggm]

That mortal combat vid was awesome, that wast he only mortal kombat i ever liked.

 

[Pink Reaper]

meh, the MK vid was cool but I just can't enjoy watching anything from Mortal Kombat because of how ******** the sprites are.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What are we even arguing now? What kind of people other posters are? The point of this thread was to evaluate and debate how competitive Brawl and Melee are, and which one is the better competitive choice. If that argument is finished, we really ought to stop biting at each other's necks and figure out how to organize the community/competitive scene.

End this silly charade.

I think most people believe melee is more competitive.

However, I am a Brawl fan, and I would much rather organize a Brawl competitive scene.

Unfortunantly, I don't know enough about Mortal Kombat to have any idea what we just saw, only that it look like shuffling through the same three attacks until the other guy gets to zero, and finishing him with a forth.

I obviously can't appreciate the intricacies of Mortal Kombat until I've actually played it.

 

[Vaul]

Completely irrelevant to thread, but @ Phoenix and Roland, you'd be surprised how often those types of combos ARE pulled off in real matches. Search for 'pro' MK3 players competing online and you'll often see very polarized changes in momentum, i.e. one player dominates, then both defensive, other dominates, etc. Unlike Brawl where the concept of 'momentum' is thrown out the window, this combo gameplay is possible because of the hitstun and whatnot. Not to mention it takes as much technical skill as Melee (OH **** DID HE SRYSLY JUST SAY THAT?!?)

EDIT: @Reaver, the sprites are AWESOME! With the exception of Stryker, who looks like he's got Downs Syndrome.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Heh, sounds awesome just not really the game for me. Although it sounds more impressive as something thats not just memorize this and win that.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I understand why rewarding camping is a bad thing.

However, why is taking out combos something you shouldn't do in a fighting game?