Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Reaver197]

I think most people believe melee is more competitive.

However, I am a Brawl fan, and I would much rather organize a Brawl competitive scene.

I don't think anyone here is trying to hold you back from that. It really seems to me that the Smash scene will be a dual-boot community, offering both Melee and Brawl. Although I agree that Melee is better competitive game, Brawl has the greater number of people willing and able to play it at the current highest level of play it offers.

I've been harping this for a while, but arguing that Melee is better competitive game is a moot point now, especially if a lot of Brawl fans recognize this fact but don't care anyway. What the we, the Melee people, have to figure out is how we attract/expose new people in the Brawl circuit to Melee, thus ensuring that the Melee community isn't static; consisting of only veterans whose numbers will only diminish as we each succumb to various reasons that we cannot play Melee competitively anymore, or at least participate in the tourney scene.

I've suggested the idea of holding free or low-cost Melee brackets catered specifically towards people who aren't that experienced with it, thus giving them a taste of it without ensuring that they'll be shut down by the money or by a much higher level player. It will hopefully allow them to play with similarly skilled people, forcing them to slowly build up their skill to one up one another (or at least that's the theory). Obviously, time consumption is an issue, plus dealing with organizing a bracket for little or no money. Maybe there's a better way.

 

[Ban3]

However, why is taking out combos something you shouldn't do in a fighting game?

leave and never come back i am not kidding that was the stupidest thing i have ever heard or read. ur a moron im not trying to be mean but wtf

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't think anyone here is trying to hold you back from that. It really seems to me that the Smash scene will be a dual-boot community, offering both Melee and Brawl. Although I agree that Melee is better competitive game, Brawl has the greater number of people willing and able to play it at the current highest level of play it offers.

I've been harping this for a while, but arguing that Melee is better competitive game is a moot point now, especially if a lot of Brawl fans recognize this fact but don't care anyway. What the we, the Melee people, have to figure out is how we attract/expose new people in the Brawl circuit to Melee, thus ensuring that the Melee community isn't static; consisting of only veterans whose numbers will only diminish as we each succumb to various reasons that we cannot play Melee competitively anymore, or at least participate in the tourney scene.

I've suggested the idea of holding free or low-cost Melee brackets catered specifically towards people who aren't that experienced with it, thus giving them a taste of it without ensuring that they'll be shut down by the money or by a much higher level player. It will hopefully allow them to play with similarly skilled people, forcing them to slowly build up their skill to one up one another (or at least that's the theory). Obviously, time consumption is an issue, plus dealing with organizing a bracket for little or no money. Maybe there's a better way.

If only it were that simple.

To get more melee fans you will need to convince Brawl fans to play melee and not overcome the ledge grapping difference, and not mind how the characters aren't as unique nor plentiful, and relearn how to short hop. Then, you'll need to explain to them how melee is a deeper game and that they should learn the advanced tactics of an older game, which are harder to preform than in Brawl. Good luck, because it would be a pity if the melee scene dies or remains static.

To Ban3: combos are an attempt to manipulate the game mechanincs to string together an inescapable group of attacks. Not a big fan of being caught in those. Mind you, I fundamentally agree with the Brawl scene over the melee scene, as Brawl matches my fighting style better. Please stop flaming, it makes us look bad.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

It was a horribly misinformed post, but he isn't mindlessly posting. He actually asked it as a question, asking what you do not know isn't a weakness. I don't pretend myself competent enough to argue why combo's are important to a fighting game but I can offer a few bits of opinion. Combo's open up the gameplay to different strategies and ways to punish your opponent for making a mistake. They also feel pretty ****ing awesome to pull off successfully in a real match. Also helps some characters that didn't have much damage potential without said combos. Someone else feel free to chime in on why combo's can be conducive to competitive play.

Edit: your sounding close-minded yourself Halloween, having to learn and train for long amounts of time to be as good as the pro's adds to what makes melee better then brawl right now. Competitive play should be a measure of skill and experience, which is accrued through practice.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I guess the difference arises from the infinite combos D3 can do with his grabs, versus the good combos, in which several different attacks hit in a row, feel awesome, and complicate gameplay beneficially.

Roland: didn't mean to sound closed - minded, I was trying to picture myself as a Brawl noob entering melee. I guess I should try to word it differently.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Picking your character is skill too, it's not winning every tournament neither is spamming or camping.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I have to disagree with you on the spamming/camping thing. These are mindgames, and granted, there is little skill, but they are also setups to force you opponent to act. I happen to dislike campers/spammers, but I did it so much in melee and so effectively, that I don't really have I right to criticize them.

Only problem is you'll eventually find someone who will always break through your defence.

 

[Reaver197]

If only it were that simple.

To get more melee fans (good luck) you will need to convince Brawl fans to play melee and not cry about how grabbing ledges is tougher and how the characters aren't as unique nor plentiful, and stop whining about the extra trouble to short hop. Then, you'll need to explain to them how melee is a deeper game and that they should learn advanced tactics over hundreds of hours just for the sake of being par with the old melee veterans (the most adament supporters of melee and no Brawl). Good luck, because it would be a pity if the melee scene dies or remains static.

To Ban3: combos are an attempt to manipulate the game mechanincs to string together an inescapable group of attacks. Not a big fan of being caught in those. Mind you, I fundamentally agree with the Brawl scene over the melee scene, as Brawl matches my fighting style better. Please stop flaming, it makes us look bad.

I cannot honestly say I speak for all fighting games, so I'll try to limit my response in the realms of Smash (in particular Melee), which is more relevant anyway.

Combos aren't inherently a manipulation of the game mechanics, it's something that is inherently part of any fighting game, and is even actively encouraged (why bother putting that combo meter in training mode then?). Sometimes, to achieve certain combos, you have to take advantage of certain game mechanics, but by and large, the combos of Melee only really depended on l-canceling, something that was purposefully put in by the developers. Brawl is pretty much the first fighting-oriented game that I've seen that tries to (or at least, accidentally does) discourage comboing.

Also, combos aren't inescapable. In Melee, they very much are, via combination of DIing, techning, dodging (on air or ground), and/or even by simply attack back. Comboing in Melee isn't just given to you on a silver platter, you have to work for it. You have to develop the tech skills in the first place to execute them, then you also need to be flexible enough to adjust to how your opponent is reacting and your immediate environment. Comboing speaks to the skill of the player attacking rather than a simple manipulation of how the game works.

Comboing also provides a very visceral and tangible reward for you learning to play at a high enough level and for being able to accomplish a rather difficult task. Biologically, you're rewarded (via dopamine), and also you're rewarded in the game by being able to rack up a lot of damage or even get a KO. It also provides a big incentive to playing aggressively, since you can conceivably get a higher reward than if you just sat back and remained cautious. Yet at the same time, playing so aggressively is risky, since your opponent might use your own attacks against you. Combos help with the very necessary risk-vs.-reward aspect that a good fighting game should have.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I know very well how difficult combos are to perform in melee. I never managed to really get past the basic ones. (except with Pikachu)

Good point about the aggressive fighting, that actually explains Brawl campers pretty well.

Chain grabbing, however, is a different story. Why is it even possible?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Well said Reaver, combo's are way more then brute force memorization of what buttons to press. Combos are more like really elaborate if then else statements.

 

[Reaver197]

Chain grabbing, however, is a different story. Why is it even possible?

Do you mean chaingrabbing via just simply regrabbing after a throw, or by way of techchasing?

Either way, pure chaingrabs in Melee only work during certain ranges of percentages, it varying depending on the character grabbing and the character being thrown, and many can be DI'd out of (sometimes it can be tough to though). Sure, it can be really easy, and it definitely is really frustrating to not be able to do much during it, but it forces you to learn how to not be grabbed, by which there are a variety of ways. You can't ever completely avoid being grabbed, but you can certainly minimize the amount of times you do.

Plus, what to fear the most about the chaingrabs is not the chaingrabs in of themselves, but what they can lead into. They usually try to lead into a KO move, but it's often escapable if you DI right when they throw you. However, most people, when being chainthrowed, become frustrated when being chaingrabbed, try to fight it in the wrong way, or don't react quick enough, which often leads to them messing their DI, allowing them to be regrabbed or KO'd. If you can learn what they're trying to lead to, and how you can DI to avoid it, you can either escape the chaingrab, or avoid the finishing blow, thus somewhat obviating the chainthrow.

For techchasing, being grabbed simply means that the opponent read your tech correctly (or baited you into rolling a certain direction), or at least knows your tech tendencies. You can escape techchasing by doing misleading DI in one direction, but then teching in the other, or you can not tech, or you can tech in a direction they're not expecting. It can be tough, it can be frustrating, but they are escapable.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I know this isn't really responding to anything, but I just feel a need to throw in my 2 cents.

Is Melee more competitive? Yes. Is Melee a better game? Not necessarily. Opinion should stay opinion, so anyone saying "Brawl sucks," "Melee sucks," or anything of the like, needs to stop, or else risk lowering the IQ of this thread by 50 points.

Well, I consider myself to be a decently knowledgeable Melee player. I have been with Melee since the start, and I have always tried to be up-tp-date with all my techniques and such. Yet, I prefer Brawl. It actually took me A LOT of thought before I came to the conclusion that I prefer Brawl. Yeah, I had a lot of trouble dropping Melee after taking so much time to learn/master all the techniques that I did.

Anyway, I firmly believe that in Brawl (like in Melee), the better player will still win. For example, I consistanly beat both my brother and a very good friend of mine, both of which are very into both Melee's metagame and Brawl's (I'm sure some of you will try to say 'lack-of') metagame. Yet I am clearly a better player than both of them, and therefore I win nearly every time. I believe I have lost maybe three or four rounds against either of them. And for this reason alone, I believe that Brawl is just as viable as a competitive game as Melee is.

The way I like to see it is that both games are competitive. There is NO denying that. Both games will, without a doubt, remain to be played competitively. The only thing holding either game back is, obviously, the community. I just can't stand when either side tries to put down the other side. The solution is simple: have Brawl and Melee played in the same tournaments, and quit trying to tell the other side that the game is bad. Why, even this topic in itself seems a little pointless to me.

I'm sure that I have forgotten the majority of what I wanted to say, but I think this will suffice for now.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Well put, Melomaniacal.

Still, it makes you wonder why the two communities enjoy hating eachother, as the flames do lower IQs dozens of points at a time, for hours at a time.

 

[Corigames]

Possibly because one is a force that bases their whole opinion on their experience in playing both on a competitive level with the same people they have been for the past couple of years. In their time, they recognize that Brawl isn't as good.

The other one is a clan that was never very active in one game, but proceeds to make assumptions about how one game worked since all they know is the other. They base their opinion off of the very short tournament play they have which consists entirely or near that of Brawl.

Now, this isn't always true, but, in general, it's pretty accurate. It kills me when I have to wade through posts that say it was impossible to beat Fox, if you could SHFFL you auto-won, or ridiculous blabber that is only based off of their bias, non-experienced viewings of youtube videos or talking to friends that got beat by some good people who played high tiered characters. And I"m sure you hate it when I say that I hope Brawl never does evolve so that we can go back to melee. I really don't need it to, but if it is going to stand in the way of what I think is a better game, what can anyone expect me to do?

In any situation, the whole debate is a waste of time. The only time I'm going to post is when I see something that specifically needs my attention, and that's either going to be because it is directed at me or someone needs a blatant smack to the face. In either case, I seem to be running higher and higher on the chance of getting infractions, because more people are resorting to that instead of counter points.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Well it's hard to judge if someone played melee competitively if they don't outright say they did. I did on a small local level nothing big, and I had enough presence of mind to look up online forums for tips on countering certain characters. My best friend loves fox and used to beat my samus pretty hard, I was relucatant to give up samus because she was my girl back in the day. I remember beating metroid retardedly fast and getting free strip tease for it. So after a little bit of research I found online forums that talked about tiers, character counters, AT, and all other kinds of useful information. Now I had to much going on in my life so I never really got around to joining any forums. I started using sheik and putting his fox more in its place>.>

I try to be as humble as possible when introducing my opinions due to the fact that I never really went to alot of tournaments much less one out of state. However I will defend myself against mindless flames for being a new member. Your last post sounds way more sensible then the flames coreygames, much like alot of your posts that have benefited this site and made you a valuable member of the smash community. I just want to see where brawl goes, right now melee is more competitive and this thread is stagnated with the same opinions and very little evidence on either side. It is a little disconcerting that some people refuse to watch brawl videos that disprove their points because they can't stand to watch brawl videos, it makes you sound 7.

Oh yeah if I had joined the forum originally in high school I wouldn't have this 07-08 stigma>.<

 

[EC_Joey]

After watching such impressive Melee videos over the years and examining them after thinking "how the hell did that guy pull that off??", Brawl videos fail to provoke any interest in me (apart from Snake videos, those are nuts). However, I can point you to videos where camping and projectile spamming are used ad nauseam, and are hard to punish. OverSwarm is one of the best at camping/projectile-spamming with ROB.

The problem with camping/projectile-spamming in Brawl is that if done right, it's extremely hard to retaliate with certain matchups. An example would be ROB vs. Captain Falcon/Ganondorf. Since the latter have no projectiles of their own, their only hope is shielding and/or air dodging. In Melee this problem was more easily handled because powershielding reflected projectiles, but in Brawl it doesn't have this effect.

Yes, I agree that camping/projectile-spamming isn't the only approach, and I recognize that there are many Brawl videos that have virtually no camping in them. However, there are smart people that take advantage of camping and are rewarded for it because of the way Brawl's game mechanics work, and this is one of Brawl's biggest flaws in my opinion. It makes matches uninteresting and repetitive, as well as frustrating if you are on the receiving end of the camping.

I don't see myself as being judgemental of people with late join dates to the forums, but those tend to be the people with the least experience with the Smash Bros. competitive scene and resort to making sweeping generalizations and misinformed opinions. I have an earlier join date, but my post count is very low because I spent the past few years reading and learning through finding information rather than posting mindlessly about something I knew nothing about.

This is the main reason why I have a hard time respecting The Halloween Captain, because he lacks knowledge and experience, while attempting to make points about subjects he is blatantly ignorant of. I'm sure he'll come to be more knowledgeable as he spends more time on the boards, but so far all I've seen from him is posting that is getting him flamed.

Back to the subject at hand, the majority of us that support Melee accept Brawl, and many play Brawl just as much or even more than those that play Brawl exclusively. We don't hate Brawl, we just feel it lacks certain aspects that made Melee the great and enduring game that it is. What I am referring to is NOT advanced techs, as many pro-Brawl people assume. Advanced techs simply added more depth to a game that was already extremely good.

Brawl, on the other hand, was stripped of more than just advanced techs, it diminished the importance of edgeguarding, removed the necessity of learning certain tactics such as sweetspotting your recovery, and gave priority to other strategies that made the game more newcomer-friendly.

While I agree that coreygames may have let his frustration get the best of him, I understand where he's coming from. Being accused of disliking Brawl purely because he lost to a newcomer isn't something I think anyone would like, RolandBeoulve. Melee supporters have many reasons for preferring Melee over Brawl, but we've had to repeat them over and over to Brawl supporters who respond to these points by using the same arguments over and over:

Know-it-all casual

A new player that speaks in definites and assumes a position of logic in a community he doesn't have extended knowledge of; rationalizes things based off of small amounts of information.

Anti-competitive casual

A new player that thinks Brawl shouldn't be a competitive game from the start.

The "Mule"

A player that believes that the game should be played according to Nintendo's childish demographic.

"Melee 2.0"

I don't think I need to say anything else. This is pretty much the only argument they use as support. Sure, Brawl isn't "Melee 2.0", But how much do you expect a successor of a game to change from it's original? Seriously...

"Melee was full of glitches" casual

completely denies all rational though and designates Melee as a glitchy game that requires no skill to operate. The most commonly designated characters in their arguments is Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik. Most designated technique is the Wavedash and L-cancel.

Competitive supporter/ Comparison

The player that compares Melee's lifespan with Brawl; Expecting history to repeat itself without evidence to support their claims.

The Brawl supporters are a massive conglomerate of people who refuse to acknowledge the faults in the game.

I agree that Melee will become less popular as time goes on, but I can't see Brawl enduring for 7 years as Melee has. This debate over Melee vs. Brawl has gone on for far too long, and those of us who have been arguing since the start of the debate are tired of it. This needs to end and people need to come to an agreement, but the main problem is the influx of new people joining the debate that have little to no experience of how deep Melee can be. I can only hope that this will end soon and both games will be accepted for what they are. Until then, my main points are:

• Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl at this point, but Brawl's competitive scene is only just starting to become established.
• Nobody knows how long either game will last.
• Melee is faster than Brawl, especially with the use of advanced techs.
• Newcomers should be open to Melee, not dismiss it like old news that should be thrown in the trash.
• Brawl has an easier learning curve, and newcomers can join in on the competitive scene much more easily.
• Brawl and Melee are both great games, but they are very different and it is up to players to decide for themselves which they prefer.

 

[Oh Snap]

I saw a Peach vs Ganon thing on youtube...and it really wow'd me. Makes me want to learn the stuff from Melee, but I won't be going back!

 

[pyromaniacnick2010]

I think that brawl and melee are both great games. It just took mme a little longer to master brawl because of the speed changes and the less potential for comboing.

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Couldn't agree more Variola, I try not to pretend to know more then I do. He stated that he lost to someone who had never played before, and in the context it was used did not sound sarcastic. It just kind of irked me over-exaggeration or not. Such as alot of people new to the Smash scene judging melee and whining about "glitch's". I have seen reasons and videos proving camping to be a pretty strong strategy, but there's plenty of other strategy's being used as well. I can respect someones experience and opinions if they are verified through discussion or reference. However it's hard to take someone seriously, much less argue civilly when they make wide general statements seemingly based on there mindset. Halloween Captain has made some pretty ridiculous posts and he seems to be trying to do better and listen to others with more experience, and actually ask questions. It's more excusable for a noob to act like a noob then it is for a veteran. Although from what I've seen alot of the dumber '07-08' users have either been filtered out, banned, or just simply defeated so far. With this exodus of stupidity I've noticed a more civil tone to the site overall^^ Coreygames posted on his stance a few posts back and how he will argue and putting it across like that as opposed to flaming earned alot of respect from me. The internet is usually mindless flaming and popularity contests it's nice to see people who don't live with a high school mentality.

 

[LOL_Master]

I think that brawl and melee are both great games. It just took mme a little longer to master brawl because of the speed changes and the less potential for comboing.

You talk as if you've mastered melee to any extent, and also how can you possibly take a longer time mastering brawl when everything is slower and easier and requires a massive drop of technical skill?

 

[RDK]

I know this isn't really responding to anything, but I just feel a need to throw in my 2 cents.

Is Melee more competitive? Yes. Is Melee a better game? Not necessarily. Opinion should stay opinion, so anyone saying "Brawl sucks," "Melee sucks," or anything of the like, needs to stop, or else risk lowering the IQ of this thread by 50 points.

Well, I consider myself to be a decently knowledgeable Melee player. I have been with Melee since the start, and I have always tried to be up-tp-date with all my techniques and such. Yet, I prefer Brawl. It actually took me A LOT of thought before I came to the conclusion that I prefer Brawl. Yeah, I had a lot of trouble dropping Melee after taking so much time to learn/master all the techniques that I did.

Anyway, I firmly believe that in Brawl (like in Melee), the better player will still win. For example, I consistanly beat both my brother and a very good friend of mine, both of which are very into both Melee's metagame and Brawl's (I'm sure some of you will try to say 'lack-of') metagame. Yet I am clearly a better player than both of them, and therefore I win nearly every time. I believe I have lost maybe three or four rounds against either of them. And for this reason alone, I believe that Brawl is just as viable as a competitive game as Melee is.

The way I like to see it is that both games are competitive. There is NO denying that. Both games will, without a doubt, remain to be played competitively. The only thing holding either game back is, obviously, the community. I just can't stand when either side tries to put down the other side. The solution is simple: have Brawl and Melee played in the same tournaments, and quit trying to tell the other side that the game is bad. Why, even this topic in itself seems a little pointless to me.

I'm sure that I have forgotten the majority of what I wanted to say, but I think this will suffice for now.

But even you proved your own point invalid when you said "In Melee, I was the better player, and won ALL the time. In Brawl, I'm still the better player, but I only win most of the time". This is evidence that Brawl is not as competitively viable as Melee, and it's what we've been trying to tell you all along--Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside. The skill gap in Melee is very different from the skill gap in Brawl.

 

[gantrain05]

But even you proved your own point invalid when you said "In Melee, I was the better player, and won ALL the time. In Brawl, I'm still the better player, but I only win most of the time". This is evidence that Brawl is not as competitively viable as Melee, and it's what we've been trying to tell you all along--Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside. The skill gap in Melee is very different from the skill gap in Brawl.

dude, you are just trying to pick fights aren't you, just because he said he won ALL the time in melee doesn't mean he won EVERY SINGLE TIME its a figure of speech and you sir need to stop the brawl bashing.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What are we argueing about exactly?

It sounds like we are putting eachother down for our opinions more than having a civilized discussion.

 

[Clai]

Well put, Melomaniacal.

Still, it makes you wonder why the two communities enjoy hating eachother, as the flames do lower IQs dozens of points at a time, for hours at a time.

If only it were that simple.

To get more melee fans you will need to convince Brawl fans to play melee and not overcome the ledge grapping difference, and not mind how the characters aren't as unique nor plentiful, and relearn how to short hop. Then, you'll need to explain to them how melee is a deeper game and that they should learn the advanced tactics of an older game, which are harder to preform than in Brawl. Good luck, because it would be a pity if the melee scene dies or remains static.

To Ban3: combos are an attempt to manipulate the game mechanincs to string together an inescapable group of attacks. Not a big fan of being caught in those. Mind you, I fundamentally agree with the Brawl scene over the melee scene, as Brawl matches my fighting style better. Please stop flaming, it makes us look bad.

I understand why rewarding camping is a bad thing.

However, why is taking out combos something you shouldn't do in a fighting game?

Roland, your talking to the guy who made threads specifically on how character culture and psycology are related.

Its simple. Corey is a Pit user, and Pit is the best spammer in the game, therefore, Corey thinks of Brawl as Spamming. You are a Lucario user, and thus the matches are more interesting because of High risk, high return. I wouldn't be surprised if Corey's dislike of Brawl is at least somewhat related to his character.

Coreygames: Way to use solid evidence and expert opinion to defend your views, and nice job using examples of what you are trying to explain.

(Please tell me everyone understood the sarcasm)

Forget it, Roland is right.
The question now is, is their anyone who believes Brawl is more competitive than melee?

Agreed. By the way, you can laugh as much as you want at my lack of melee knowledge. I admit that I neither know nor care about the ATs in melee, because that game is doomed to be as pushed away from the spotlight as SSB64. It doesn't matter which game is more competitive, because Brawl will win out in the end, and this is because it is both more popular and more noob accesible than melee.

Hate to say it, but camping is the direction Smash is going in, unless the pros out their find some anti-camp tactics quick.

By the way, the red ink makes you look like an ***. Seriously, it gives the impression that whatever you are going to say is rude and an attempt to flame. It also makes you more noticable when you flame me for asking dumb melee questions about AT. Fine. I never really bothered learning ATs for melee, and only discovered they existed nine months ago. Emphasizing it in red ink is unnecessary.

You are absolutely correct. You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling, but I am always going to be a Brawl fan, because I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users. Since these tactic that I don't like seem to be essentail to Brawl, I am going to leave this thread.

These cycles are so freaking annoying. We start to actually break ground on some real, intelligent discussion and then some gargantuan scrub busts in, shouts complete nonsense, and then spends ten freaking pages in one day defending his scrub mentality and calling out respected smashers. I know we have to try and be respectful, but TheHalloweenCaptain, you do not belong here. At all.

Everything I put in bold proves my point. If you'd like me to explain myself, I will. I will put down, point by point, the reasons you should not expect to have any of your opinions matter in this discussion and why you will only be put as the subject of ridicule.

For starters, I will tell you about coreygames because I assume that he is just way too tired of explaining himself to every noob that comes around and doesn't understand corey's messages of justice. Coreygames is a great Melee samus player who placed highly at tournaments. He tried taking up Brawl, but along the obvious faults of Brawl's gameplay, Samus went down the tubes, which is why he now takes up Pit. He knows very well the viable strategies of both games, and he has the knowledge to figure out that Melee is the deeper, more enjoyable game.

I apologize if you take offense to me speaking on your behalf, coreygames, but you have already put loads of great discussion in this thread, and if people are too ignorant to go back and read it, there is no need for you to have to explain yourself to every single person that attacks you when they clearly shouldn't. That's why I put my statements in.

• Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl at this point, but Brawl's competitive scene is only just starting to become established.
• Nobody knows how long either game will last.
• Melee is faster than Brawl, especially with the use of advanced techs.
• Newcomers should be open to Melee, not dismiss it like old news that should be thrown in the trash.
• Brawl has an easier learning curve, and newcomers can join in on the competitive scene much more easily.
• Brawl and Melee are both great games, but they are very different and it is up to players to decide for themselves which they prefer.

This list needs to be cut out, hung to dry, and placed on a mantle. This should be put on the first post, and everybody should be required to look at it before speaking their minds.

 

[EC_Joey]

Anyway, I firmly believe that in Brawl (like in Melee), the better player will still win. For example, I consistanly beat both my brother and a very good friend of mine, both of which are very into both Melee's metagame and Brawl's (I'm sure some of you will try to say 'lack-of') metagame. Yet I am clearly a better player than both of them, and therefore I win nearly every time. I believe I have lost maybe three or four rounds against either of them. And for this reason alone, I believe that Brawl is just as viable as a competitive game as Melee is.

I can't tell whether you're saying you beat your brother and friend in Melee or Brawl. I can only assume you mean both games.

However, if your own experiences playing two people is all that you're basing your opinion on, I have to say that I don't trust your opinion on this issue. If you go to tournaments regularly and/or play/watch matches online, you can judge more accurately whether or not a player with more skill can win consistently against a player with less skill in Brawl.

I believe people who have more of this experience are under the impression that unless the difference in skill is large enough, to the point that one can dominate the other consistently, matches could go either way. I admit that I have not been able to go to a single Brawl tournament yet, nor have I played Brawl regularly. This is just what I believe I've heard from other players.

Edit: Read this if you still think Brawl is more competitive than Melee

 

[Melomaniacal]

I can't tell whether you're saying you beat your brother and friend in Melee or Brawl. I can only assume you mean both games.

However, if your own experiences playing two people is all that you're basing your opinion on, I have to say that I don't trust your opinion on this issue. If you go to tournaments regularly and/or play/watch matches online, you can judge more accurately whether or not a player with more skill can win consistently against a player with less skill in Brawl.

I believe people who have more of this experience are under the impression that unless the difference in skill is large enough, to the point that one can dominate the other consistently, matches could go either way. I admit that I have not been able to go to a single Brawl tournament yet, nor have I played Brawl regularly. This is just what I believe I've heard from other players.

Well, I'm just using that as one example. I do win consistently online, but I don't think that means anything so I don't mention it. I did go to local tournaments regularly for Melee, and I have gone to one Brawl tournament so far, so I'm not ignorant. Granted, none of the Melee tournaments were large tournaments, but rather smaller local tournaments (although they were still fairly large, number-wise), they still followed Melee tournament rules, and still had very few 'scrubs.'

But really my main point is this: Both sides need to accept each other. Brawl will be played competitively, there is no stopping that. Melee will continue to be played competitively. Whether Melee is a better or more competitive game is irrelavent. When I see posts like "I hope brawl doesn't progress" (sorry corey ), that bothers me. That's the only problem. The problem isn't "Melee is more competitive," it's the community trying to prevent the games from progressing. This can be said to Brawlers too, but it's hard to deny the fact that it's coming mostly from the pro-Melee side. I'm trying not to be too biased (and sorry if I do sound biased), because I do honestly and fully support both sides.
I mean, the way I see it, all this thread is doing is causing hostility between sides, and that's bad. When it comes down to it, the game IS the community (who plays for the single player?). It's a pointless argument. I mean, what is the point? To prove Melee is more competitive? Okay, well what happens after you prove that? I'll tell you what: Nothing.

So I say that we need to just drop the whole argument and accept each others (most likely) unchanging opinions.

 

[RDK]

dude, you are just trying to pick fights aren't you, just because he said he won ALL the time in melee doesn't mean he won EVERY SINGLE TIME its a figure of speech and you sir need to stop the brawl bashing.

I'm not picking fights at all; I'm simply calling people out when they utilize horribly illogical and misinformed arguments, which seems to be a trend among the pro-Brawl camp.

 

[EC_Joey]

Most people are now in agreement that Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl. What we're now concerned with is the future. Some feel Brawl will flourish and grow into a competitive game after some time passes. Some of these people feel that Melee will diminish and be "put on the shelf" with SSB64.

Others feel that Brawl will be recognized for being a shallow party game and not viable for competitive play. Many of these people hope that people will turn to Melee and the Melee competitive scene will rise again.

For myself, I think of myself as part of the group that feels that Brawl has potential to grow into a competitive game, but that Melee will not be forgotten and tossed aside. I think at most Brawl tournaments at least one Melee setup is made available, and newcomers who joined the competitive scene because of Brawl will be introduced to the nuances of high level Melee gameplay.

I'm not saying that this will convert mass droves of Brawl players into Melee fanatics, I am only saying that perhaps some people will take a liking to Melee and discover for themselves what Melee is about, while still playing Brawl. Others will dislike Melee's high speed and sharp learning curve and stick to Brawl, which is fine.

What I hope for is that Brawl will continue to grow, and that Melee will still be a part of the Smash competitive scene.

 

[LOL_Master]

variola, rdk, and others who are on the right track and have the right attitude, you will be rewarded : ), once i finish my degree and get my job in engineering, i'm gonna play all you guys, traveling fees will be insignificant

 

[EC_Joey]

variola, rdk, and others who are on the right track and have the right attitude, you will be rewarded : ), once i finish my degree and get my job in engineering, i'm gonna play all you guys, traveling fees will be insignificant

The only issue will be "Oh CRAP which game do we put in first?!"

 

[Melomaniacal]

But even you proved your own point invalid when you said "In Melee, I was the better player, and won ALL the time. In Brawl, I'm still the better player, but I only win most of the time". This is evidence that Brawl is not as competitively viable as Melee, and it's what we've been trying to tell you all along--Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside. The skill gap in Melee is very different from the skill gap in Brawl.

I actually have no idea where I said that, and where you're getting this from. I said that because I am the better player, I nearly always beat my brother and good friend, both of which are not scrubs. Our skill gaps are not large, yet I beat them because I am the better player. This could be said in Melee as well (same example). I didn't say I win "most of the time," I said I have lost maybe three or four matches. I didn't even mention how often I won in Melee, but since you brought it up, I'll say that I won JUST as much. And we all pretty much know that Melee is more competitive, I just don't think that it's so much more competitive that Brawl needs to be discarded. BOTH games are competitive, end of story.

And there's the problem again, "Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside." That IS an opinion, not a fact. I mean, hell, if you want to go by fact, Brawl is superior. Brawl has a larger fan base, therefore it must be a superior game, right?
(I'm not trying to say Brawl IS better, I'm just going by the facts. I'm pretty neutral on which game is better).

 

[Melomaniacal]

Most people are now in agreement that Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl. What we're now concerned with is the future. Some feel Brawl will flourish and grow into a competitive game after some time passes. Some of these people feel that Melee will diminish and be "put on the shelf" with SSB64.

Others feel that Brawl will be recognized for being a shallow party game and not viable for competitive play. Many of these people hope that people will turn to Melee and the Melee competitive scene will rise again.

For myself, I think of myself as part of the group that feels that Brawl has potential to grow into a competitive game, but that Melee will not be forgotten and tossed aside. I think at most Brawl tournaments at least one Melee setup is made available, and newcomers who joined the competitive scene because of Brawl will be introduced to the nuances of high level Melee gameplay.

I'm not saying that this will convert mass droves of Brawl players into Melee fanatics, I am only saying that perhaps some people will take a liking to Melee and discover for themselves what Melee is about, while still playing Brawl. Others will dislike Melee's high speed and sharp learning curve and stick to Brawl, which is fine.

What I hope for is that Brawl will continue to grow, and that Melee will still be a part of the Smash competitive scene.

I could not agree with you more, very well said.

 

[thumbswayup]

And there's the problem again, "Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside." That IS an opinion, not a fact. I mean, hell, if you want to go by fact, Brawl is superior. Brawl has a larger fan base, therefore it must be a superior game, right?
(I'm not trying to say Brawl IS better, I'm just going by the facts. I'm pretty neutral on which game is better).

As a party game Brawl is superior (more items, stages, easier to learn). As a competitive game, Brawl is inferior (much lower learning curve). Those are facts, deal with it.

 

[RDK]

I actually have no idea where I said that, and where you're getting this from. I said that because I am the better player, I nearly always beat my brother and good friend, both of which are not scrubs. Our skill gaps are not large, yet I beat them because I am the better player. This could be said in Melee as well (same example). I didn't say I win "most of the time," I said I have lost maybe three or four matches. I didn't even mention how often I won in Melee, but since you brought it up, I'll say that I won JUST as much. And we all pretty much know that Melee is more competitive, I just don't think that it's so much more competitive that Brawl needs to be discarded. BOTH games are competitive, end of story.

And there's the problem again, "Brawl is simply the inferior game, opinions aside." That IS an opinion, not a fact. I mean, hell, if you want to go by fact, Brawl is superior. Brawl has a larger fan base, therefore it must be a superior game, right?
(I'm not trying to say Brawl IS better, I'm just going by the facts. I'm pretty neutral on which game is better).

I'm not talking about fanbase size, or even opinions about the game. Competitively, Brawl IS inferior. It's been shown a million times over by respectable people in the community. Melee is the deeper, more competitively viable game. I doubt you'll disagree with me on that.

But hey--this is the Brawl Boards. I wouldn't be surprised ifvyou didn't.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

As a party game Brawl is superior (more items, stages, easier to learn). As a competitive game, Brawl is inferior (much lower learning curve). Those are facts, deal with it.

Learning curve =/= competitiveness.

Also, if you really think the learning curve is so much lower, then go learn how to ISJR. Its ridiculously difficult.

 

[EC_Joey]

Learning curve =/= competitiveness.

Also, if you really think the learning curve is so much lower, then go learn how to ISJR. Its ridiculously difficult.

I agree. If a new fighting game were to come out that has a larger learning curve than all other fighting games, it doesn't mean it is the most competitive game.

However, I don't think ISJR is a necessary part of the learning curve in Brawl yet. Unless some ridiculously good applications have been found for it, in which case I should go learn how to do it immediately!

Edit: I just skimmed through a thread about applications. I'll wait until it's proven to be useful and realistic before I go devote hours to practicing it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Variola - Pikachu's quick attack cancel works off of ISJR, and it can allow MK to never touch the ground. Don't see much use for Snake, though.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Are you kidding? ISJR looks beastly in the hands of a good Lucario, especially considering all of his good combo moves are aerials. Besides, who doesn't fear the Wall of Manliness?

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm not talking about fanbase size, or even opinions about the game. Competitively, Brawl IS inferior. It's been shown a million times over by respectable people in the community. Melee is the deeper, more competitively viable game. I doubt you'll disagree with me on that.

But hey--this is the Brawl Boards. I wouldn't be surprised ifvyou didn't.

Nah, I do agree with you. But that doesn't mean that Brawl ISN'T deep or competitive, just not AS deep or competitive. And that doesn't mean that Brawl isn't viable as a tournament game. Like I've said before, Melee is more competitive than Brawl, but not so much so that Brawl should just be discarded.

Well, either way, that's not what my post was about, really. I'm not sure where I said that I won less in Brawl.

 

[arrowhead]

Also, if you really think the learning curve is so much lower, then go learn how to ISJR. Its ridiculously difficult.

one technique doesn't compensate for the lack of general tech skill needed to succeed. but if you want to talk about the extremes, fox and falco have JC shines, samus has SWD, peach has incredibly quick FCd airiels, etc. but i do agree that learning curve != competitiveness. but melee has much more viable options per second, and that's the largest reason why it's currently a more competitive game.