Recovery Tier List

[GOD!]

Of course its awesome but samus is godlike.... if you haven't been reading the thread and dont know whats happening why post...

actually its more like 43.62%. Dont forget the extra place god **** it

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

This isn't about what ifs is it? If so ice climbers are da best in the game due to de-syncing what ifs.

get that s*** out of here.

to the pichu part again pichu's up-b game is different you don't know how to double up-b or use the wall jumps. pichu in truth make it back from lower areas. pikachu can't double upB like pichu can. pichu abuses landing on the stage more. I may suck but I KNOW MY OPTIONS forwards and backwards.

get out of here you haven't studied this at all. Only vs bad players will you not get edge ***** as sheik. or a huge mistake. Pichu F*** he's to fast with to many options shut p unless you can go out and research this stuff. Do you know how big pichu's sweetspot is? how to deal with grabbing the edge and bairing when you're low? can you even tech marth's f-smashes when you try to recover as pichu? how good is his air dodge? who's air speed is better his or pikeachu's?

 

[KirbyKaze]

m2k is probably right but not for your stupid reasons. It's not a great recovery but you don't get zero deathed once you get back on stage.

His reasons for it being considered not that good are that you get edgeguarded for sure when you land or something. I don't remember the post, I might look for it. They're similar reasons though... her recovery isn't exactly complicated. You get on and you almost always get hit. And you can't do anything about it.

Speaking of DIing, mango said that in the future there will be way fewer combos cause people will learn to DI.

Chain grabs will always work because they're resistant to SDI. Only thing that affects a chain grab is whether or not the stage interferes with it (plats and other things) or if the chain grabber messes up.

The same applies for automatic throw combos like D-throw Fair a la Sheik.

Sheik is not straight up combo'd by the vast majority characters when she poofs onstage. A good portion of them take the opportunity to hit a good throw combo or do a big chain grab (see: Ganon, Sheik, Mario, Doc, ICs, etc).

The rest of them just hit a big move that forces her to recover again or kills her outright (Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff).

Now, on this DI business. You can't ground tech a lot of launch moves after a certain percent so you most of Fox's setups are still fair game (and you only need to combo Sheik back offstage; you don't need to do anything really fancy). The Shine will still link to moves and form a good follow for either space animal. And DI doesn't really help vs straight up KO moves that kill at a set percent regardless of DI (Rest, Knee, Fox U-smash, etc).

Videos are great for seeing how a lot of different people are successful in different ways for the same character, ans seeing how they are successful. Like watching ihsb, hugs, and phanna all recover. Uh yeah its pretty useful actually

Okay then can we comment on how easily and systematically Mew2King removes Samus's recovery options when he fights her? And argue that such a feat can be emulated and therefore Samus's recovery isn't third?

You actually dont know anything about pichus recovery at top level. No one does, unless you want to say pichus recovery = pikachus minus a hitbox plus length. And pichus recovery is definitely not as good as samus anyway. There's no way anyone can say one of the other definitely. But samus can make it back from pretty much anything, get hit and do it again. pichus and pikachus are good, quick, and have options, but if the person takes away the ledge from you you have to go onstage. If they have the ledge and ledgehop something, you're gonna get hit and go flying... theorybros oh yeah. and you are playing it here to cause guess whaaaaaaattt?

This is fair I guess. It is hard to say anything about Pichu's recovery at high level since there isn't a high level Pichu.

Though your proposed example is hilariously stupid. Pichu doesn't have landing lag so if they miss him when he's coming down because he tricks them they are never in any position to punish or do anything, which is a very useful feature.

lol edgeguard loops actually rarely happen. only work 23.4% of the time. all you do is say they work, i say I don't see it and look at vids and its not there, I see people play and its not there either.

In my experience it works, both as and against Sheiks.

So... I dunno.

I'm still interested in where you're getting your statistics.

 

[N64]

have been reading the thread, know what's going on, posted in it earlier, sup

I hate people who are consistently adamant and wrong

Samus's recovery is good, but slow and often punishable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

43.6% of what GOD says is wrong.

I disagree entirely with this statistic.

At the very least it's in the low 80s.

 

[GOD!]

yeah I dont really think anyone gives a **** anymore kk

I got my stats from mew2kings frame data. dont question it, he's better than you are

My pichu example: it doesnt matter if she has no landing lag if she is in the air.. lol firefox landing doesn't have much lag so you waveland something before they land. I guess it was only hilariously stupid when you are visualizing pichu upbing straight into the stage. which wait.. wasn't what happened?

I defer all my posts on pichu to icg's wisdom. if he tells me Im wrong Im wrong.

n64 i cant say if you read or not. Maybe you even comprehended it and are trolling. you sure didnt intelligently address anything

And falcon grab doesn't combo into anything except uthrow at higher percents. So its not guaranteed and dont act like it. Puff is god tier anyway who cares, she ***** everyones recovery, end of story (or she should at least).

Id like you to do me a favor and watch sheik dittos to see how man sheiks actually do the cg successfully. watch ganon/sheik too and see how that works out. cgs are not like free candy and people mess up on them a lot. reality and actual matches will show you this.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

when you talking about pro pichu recovery? why would the up-B straight into the stage happen?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have a feeling GOD! is gonna go the same route as P.O.F

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeah I dont really think anyone gives a **** anymore kk

I got my stats from mew2kings frame data. dont question it, he's better than you are

My pichu example: it doesnt matter if she has no landing lag if she is in the air.. lol firefox landing doesn't have much lag so you waveland something before they land. I guess it was only hilariously stupid when you are visualizing pichu upbing straight into the stage. which wait.. wasn't what happened?

I defer all my posts on pichu to icg's wisdom. if he tells me Im wrong Im wrong.

n64 i cant say if you read or not. Maybe you even comprehended it and are trolling. you sure didnt intelligently address anything

And falcon grab doesn't combo into anything except uthrow at higher percents. So its not guaranteed and dont act like it. Puff is god tier anyway who cares, she ***** everyones recovery, end of story (or she should at least).

Id like you to do me a favor and watch sheik dittos to see how man sheiks actually do the cg successfully. watch ganon/sheik too and see how that works out. cgs are not like free candy and people mess up on them a lot. reality and actual matches will show you this.

problems with this post

1) firefox not having landing lag is a huge asset for fox's recovery and i can't believe you just tried to tell me it doesn't matter because of wavelanding. fox forces you to respond to his recovery immediately basically because of all his options. pichu operates in the same way, especially with plats.

2) you're putting your faith in ICG

3) falcon doesn't grab to knee he just straight up knees. ledgehop knee, stand up knee... as long as he's below 100% (according to hax) she's cake to edgeguard.

4) i've played drephen in friendlies and tournament, so don't tell me that cgs aren't free LMFAO if a bunch of people suck at them then whatever but they certainly ARE FREE and people should suck less LOL

 

[Mew2King]

marth and samus have very overrated recoveries

fox/falco are underrated (shinestalls, illusion cancels, mixing up fire foxes and illusions and air dodges and wall jumps they are not bad at recovering at ALL)

 

[KAOSTAR]

marth and samus have very overrated recoveries

fox/falco are underrated (shinestalls, illusion cancels, mixing up fire foxes and illusions and air dodges and wall jumps they are not bad at recovering at ALL)

4 sure dirty.

@sveet-yea I forgot about him. he trolled his way out of the community.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I spent a long time trying to give POF the benefit of the doubt because he had all those stickies in the marf boards and stuff.... the worst thing is, i dont think it was an alt, i think the guy was just like that

 

[GOD!]

icg is the man dont hate

of course having no lag on landing is important to recovery. learn to read. You just have to respond differently to the situation. lol youre acting like I said that having no lag wasnt important for the character recovery. gd what are they teaching canadians in school these days? obviously not reading comprehension

ok so reality check: youtube search hax sheik. First match comes up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rQiiATYkc

3/4 times that match sheiks gets in an edgeguarding situation (shes recovering, falcon on stage waiting) she gets back. She's stomped twice and techs the stomp on a platform, kneed once offstage and killed, and another time she ends up gimping hax for trying to edgeguard her.

guaranteed uh huh I believe it. Theres this thing called real life.

yeah cgs should be free but for 99% of people who cant do them they're not.

Its hard arguing with you cause you seem like a smart and intelligent guy. you just say stupid stuff.

EDIT: whoops that was 3rd youtube result.
1sr resukt is tec0 vs hax. 3/6 times sheik gets back on fine from being off. One time she SDs (like airdodges in the middle of space) and two more times she tries going for the ledge when she could have gotten onstage. but hax is too smart so she dies

 

[Pi]

bair is too laggy to wait for me to actually grapple, a lot of times I'll just air dodge and not grapple and get hit by the bair since marth is going to throw it out any way, then have my grapple and recover in a better position.

If you want to 'steal' my grapple, side B's and DJ fairs offer a larger window to 'wait' for the grapple, and probably put you in a beter position to reverse UB, than bairs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

icg is the man dont hate

of course having no lag on landing is important to recovery. learn to read. You just have to respond differently to the situation. lol youre acting like I said that having no lag wasnt important for the character recovery. gd what are they teaching canadians in school these days? obviously not reading comprehension

My pichu example: it doesnt matter if she has no landing lag if she is in the air.. lol firefox landing doesn't have much lag so you waveland something before they land.

You said that lack of landing lag don't matter if they're airborne. I know you were talking about Pichu, but then you seemed to apply the same sort of principle to Firefox. But what you don't seem to get is that the fact that you have to be extremely preemptive is very good and can suck immensely for slow characters like Peach, etc. Or if they're just not in a position to punish it immediately. This can get very guess-based with things like platforms.

ok so reality check: youtube search hax sheik. First match comes up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rQiiATYkc

3/4 times that match sheiks gets in an edgeguarding situation (shes recovering, falcon on stage waiting) she gets back. She's stomped twice and techs the stomp on a platform, kneed once offstage and killed, and another time she ends up gimping hax for trying to edgeguard her.

If you're going to cite any youtube videos that support your point then this is going to get nowhere really quickly because you can find support for basically any matchup ratio, strategy, or technique (no matter how blatantly wrong it is) on youtube.

It's basically established at this point in time that Falcon can guaranteed Knee or whatever versus Sheik's recovery. Consult the Falcon players if you want.

I'm not going to bother going through youtube to find the 100+ videos that support this claim. This is pretty much common strategy at this point and everyone should know this.

yeah cgs should be free but for 99% of people who cant do them they're not.

For many people they are. I don't make my arguments around crappy players. I know for darn sure that if I'm in a CG ditto with Plank, M2K, Drephen, Vanz, Tope or any decent Sheik I should be expecting a full death grab, or at least 40%.

EDIT: whoops that was 3rd youtube result.
1sr resukt is tec0 vs hax. 3/6 times sheik gets back on fine from being off. One time she SDs (like airdodges in the middle of space) and two more times she tries going for the ledge when she could have gotten onstage. but hax is too smart so she dies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLmmcGxvLRg

I'm going to assume that's the match you're talking about. That's the first thing that came up when I searched. Almost every time Tec0 got onstage Sheik got hit. The issue came from Hax missing the Knee or making a small movement error that prevented him from grabbing the edge after the stomp. He certainly could have connected those moves very easily, and killed her.

I don't know any notable Sheik players that consider her recovery good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

her recovery is amazing if the opponent doesn't grab the edge :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

stfu sveet

 

[GOD!]

If she up bs over the stage then it doesn't matter that she has no landing lag. With your peach example, why would a peach grab the ledge anyway if pichu was close enough to get back? Why not just float cancel bair at the edge and hover towards the stage to cover sweetspot and if pichu decided to do her second quick attack over the stage?

Why the heck are we talking about pichus recovery?

Falcon can only guaranteed knee if sheik is far enough offstage that she cant slap him, her up-b wont hit him when hes on the ledge, and that sheik actually goes onto the stage. If sheik upbs to the ledge and falcon leaves it, shes fine. If she airdodges on instead, shes not auto kneed. If she upps onto a platform or something, its definitely not auto knee.

Well trying to choose a random high level match to prove a point wont hold up against your theory. I guess two random ones wont work either. Funnily enough, my point is proved (edgeguarding sheik isn't some auto combo or autokill) but yours isn't.

Strange how that works out. Pick five more videos and see how automatic it is to kill sheiks recovering. Lol it was especially funny when hax tried to edgeguard her and got gimped. automatic you say?

"At least 40%"

Exactly. Now what does 40% have to do with death... it leads to it.. but so does getting hit by luigis taunt.

Idk what we're even talking about anymore. You seem to think that chaingrabs are automatic and sheik dies everytime she has to up-b onto the stage. REality says otherewise buuuuuuut say whatever you want. This is a waste of time and I have school to do..

 

[unknown522]

wow after somewhat going through this thread, Doc King has the funniest/most stupid posts ever!

Also, you guys underrate falco too much. just because it's not as long as fox's, doesn't mean that it's bad. His recovery is really versatile, and doesn't have much lag when you land. Also, being able to edge-cancel off of platforms when you're close enough is really good.

Samus' recovery is bad. Get over it people. You can really gay her with projectiles when she's offstage, then edge hog her and force her to get on (or in the air), then hit her. Simple.

Sheik's recovery is bad. You take the edge, then hit her back off. If characters are below 100%, then you do a neutral getup as she vanishes, then she gets forced to go on the stage with huge amounts of lag (or get edge-hogged).

mario and doc's recovery is bad. Like samus, no matter how long they stall themselves in the air, they will always end up in the same general area. You just take the ledge, and time your invincibility for thier up-b (or if they decide to PTP, then you can hit them out of that). All I can say is that, when I played mango and Smash Mac at apex, they both never recovered vs me. Then Mango said to me: "man, Mario is bad." and I said "yeah. I know."



Just because you people are bad at edgeguarding these characters doesn't mean that their recovery is good.

 

[unknown522]

ooops unknown is still logged in

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon can only guaranteed knee if sheik is far enough offstage that she cant slap him, her up-b wont hit him when hes on the ledge, and that sheik actually goes onto the stage. If sheik upbs to the ledge and falcon leaves it, shes fine. If she airdodges on instead, shes not auto kneed. If she upps onto a platform or something, its definitely not auto knee.

He can time his invincibility to prevent the poof from hitting him (very easily) if he just stands up or ledge stalls effectively. This is true for most characters. If she's that close she's also vulnerable to ledgehop whatever, probably.

If she air-dodges on then she can very easily be auto-Kneed. It's not exactly hard to react to it. Sheik doesn't go far when she air-dodges. In fact, I think that actually happens in the Tec0 match you referred to.

If she lands on a platform she's still auto-Kneed if Falcon reacted properly. I'm not sure why you think she's not.

Well trying to choose a random high level match to prove a point wont hold up against your theory. I guess two random ones wont work either. Funnily enough, my point is proved (edgeguarding sheik isn't some auto combo or autokill) but yours isn't.

I should probably address that using 2 matches chosen randomly to form the basis of a matchup strategy's viability is a terrible sample size. And consequently coincidental factors like Hax playing bad or whatever wind up heavily influencing a statistic.

You don't seem to get it.

It is common knowledge for pretty much everyone that Sheik gets hit by a free whatever when she has to Up+B. That's just how it is. Unless she like tricks you (which is countered by paying attention to her) you always get that free hit.

Strange how that works out. Pick five more videos and see how automatic it is to kill sheiks recovering. Lol it was especially funny when hax tried to edgeguard her and got gimped. automatic you say?

I'm not going to get into a silly youtube game with you because it's a waste of my time. I'm pretty sure that if I bother to ask any reputable player about whether or not it's easy to hit Sheik during recovery, they're going to tell me "Yeah".

And yes, automatic. Hax's mistakes in one match do not compensate for the numerous U-smashes, Rests, Sheik ditto CGs, Knees, and other things that she regularly gets hit by.

"At least 40%"

Alright, that was dumb of me.

Idk what we're even talking about anymore. You seem to think that chaingrabs are automatic and sheik dies everytime she has to up-b onto the stage. REality says otherewise buuuuuuut say whatever you want. This is a waste of time and I have school to do..

Chain grabs are automatic. I'm not sure what you're trying to infer by saying they're not. By definition a chain grab is an inescapable combo.

And I still maintain Sheik should usually die when she poofs onstage. If people mess up grotesquely and F-smash the wrong way or something, then that's not a reflection of Sheik's recovery being good. It's demonstrative of Sheik's opponent being an idiot or having horrible execution in that moment.

 

[GOD!]

I didn't watch two youtubr matches, and from that make up the theory. I watch half the matches that go up in tournament videos, and used to watch a lot more. I still play though mostly during breaks cause of school. Everything I've seen and what actually happens trumps anything anybody will ever say about what happens. If Barack Obama, the UN, and every President in the world said that the sky was green, its not true, because obviously the sky isn't green.

Like are you seriously so ****ing ******** that you really cant see that its not an auto knee? not an auto anything? Because there is no auto anything, people are always going to mess up. Example: ss recovery. Like how the hell does he do it? Falcons recovery is garbage, but he just gets back almost every time he's hit off.

So get it through your head. Reality does not line up with your theory. If you think sheik getting back onstage means the opponent is an "idiot" or has "horrible execution in that moment," well then everyone must suck it up a lot cause guess what? Watch matches and sheik still lives. So if that's the top metagame (and I'd say hax is probably top of the metagame) executes horribly.

And in that case, her recovery is only bad in the sense that that according to you, it should be punished. Well according to me, any fox player who hits a shield should be able to drillshine until it breaks, and the fox is garbage if he can't break a shield once he touches it. drillshine isn't even hard tech skill, just hold down and press a b and l a lot.

But it doesn't happen, so are foxes garbage in execution, or are those expectations for people unreasonably high? You're expecting people to be perfectly controlled and have perfect reaction for every situation. This does not happen. Open your eyes. You're arguing a stupid theory and ignoring real life. w/e

 

[KAOSTAR]

god ur dumb. only peach has perfect shield pressure. it requires one to be frame prefect and its unreasonable to expect.

fox/falco have frame holes no matter what. so **** being unreasonable, it shouldn't happen. people being perfect execution wise means sheik always dies and fox/falco never break shields.

ppl do dumb **** and let sheik recover. only if she can knock you off the ledge, dj to it, or do that platform trick should she ever recover.

it requires discipline. stay on the ledge and punish the reappear.

 

[GOD!]

exactly. None of that stuff actually happens So( @ KK) dont act like it does. Or even that it should. Cause people arent computeres.

 

[N64]

regardless of how often it happens, I still don't see how relying on my opponent to mess up tech skill for me to safely recover makes my recovery good.

 

[KAOSTAR]

There difference GOD is that it should happen vs something being unreasonable.

PEach perfect shield pressure is possible, but unrealistic. breaking shields regularly with any character in ssbm...unrealistic.

consistently edgeguarding sheik, super up B bros, marths, falcons, ganons, etc is completely realistic. Even at top level you can have poor execution. Its not like ****ing up that particular edgeguard leads directly to you getting punished and killed. You dont see alot of missed L cancels at top level. its because those lead directly to your death and getting punished vs not capitalizing on opportunities. Ppl are alot less disiplined when it comes to that kinda stuff, thats all.

and lets be clear. Its really dumb to show youtube examples of ppl not doing it properly and then say its unrealistic. there are plenty of falcon vs sheik matches at which shiek gets baired and reverse kneed everytime she touches pavement from an up B.

 

[GOD!]

But those matches aren't the rule, they are the exception, if you follow.

I seriously just picked the first two that came up.. and you can always find one where every edgeguard is hit, but does it really happen? Watch at your finals of local tournaments, anywhere on youtube, and you can observe that messing up is pretty much the norm. Yeah you can pull m2k vs darkrain out but it doesn't represent real play. Idk I'm talking in circles now. I can't see how I can make what actually happens any clearer.

EDIT: these have been like the dumbest things I've ever written. I'm sorry for wasting you guys time (and mine). Yeah I'm not gonna reply in this thread anymore, sorry I derailed it so much. I'm gonna try and not be a jerk on swf from now on

 

[KAOSTAR]

ill just end with saying...I agree with you when you say the edge guard didn't happen because they messed up. not that sheik ***** at recovering.

whether she got hit or not is irrelevant. there is no secret sheik skill that could stop her from getting hit out of her up b lag.

thats the mark of a bad recovery. living is outside of her control.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

are we seriously still arguing about this?

sheik has 30 frames of lag after her upb. Even if it took 10 frames to determine which spot she teleported to, falcon could spend the next 20 frames moonwalking until he kneed her off the screen.

we all know how easy it is to punish upb, GOD! will continue ignoring anything that makes sense and will choose whatever sentence out of context to say the same thing in circles until he gets banned or someone posts youtube videos (in which case he will then pick something else from the video that is slightly related and continue on)

 

[KirbyKaze]

This message is hidden because GOD! is on your ignore list.

 

[P.C. Jona]

KK stop being gay

thats mad ignorant

i hate how people block other people and then post that message

and then they think their freakin cool

yea your freaking cool bro

im gonna be just like you when i grow up

a d bag

oh and btw

This message is hidden because KirbyKaze is on your ignore list.

im freakin cool

 

[Stevo]

weren't you two supposed to MM or something?

 

[KAOSTAR]

oh yea lmao. 500 dollars.

get em KK

 

[JPOBS]

i'd side bet 20 bucks jona doesnt take more than 1 stock.

 

[otg]

Wait wait wait wait wait. When was the last time any of YOU GUYS beat hazz.... IN TOURNAMENT?!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbqAWx1kD7Q

I thought not.





$5 on jona.

 

[Geist]

P.C. Jona stop being gay

thats mad ignorant

i hate how people type like Mango like each sentence is its own paragraph

and then they think their freakin cool

yea your freaking cool bro

im gonna be just like you when i grow up

a fruit

oh and btw

I'm typing like Mango

im freakin cool

 

[otg]

Please, Jona's been posting like that for years.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Please, Jona's been posting like that for years.

lol @ people who tink mango was the first to type like that.

I use to type life thai alot more but it just doesn't look as clean and some people find iit annoying.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This message is hidden because P.C. Jona is on your ignore list.

 

[P.C. Jona]

This message is hidden because KirbyKaze is on your ignore list.