Recovery Tier List

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In terms of recovery, I was thinking...

1: Mewtwo
2: Jigglypuff
3: Peach
4: Pichu
5: Pikachu
6: Samus
7: Zelda
8: Ice Climbers (when together)
9: Kirby
10: Donkey Kong
11: Yoshi
12: Mr. G&W
13: Link
14: Young Link
15: Sheik
16: Marth
17: Mario
18: Captain Falcon
19: Luigi
20: Ganondorf
21: Bowser
22: Dr. Mario
23: Fox
24: Falco
25: Ness
26: Ice Climbers (when separated)
27: Roy

Just guesses, overall.

 

[V3ctorMan]

i don't have videos to back this up, but roy has a few options against falco off the edge/below the stage

^Gah! Sion Your avatar is AMAZING!!

<33333

Oh umm, yeah recovering on the stage is good ^^

 

[Winston]

if you guys think Falco is that low..... kill yourself. There are SO many ways he can recover in tricky ways. Everyone's too obvious and generic though

Well, it kind of comes down to weighting how good a character is at recovering when they get knocked off the stage with good DI and how gimpable the character is. Falco is quite good at the first thing, but obviously is one of the most vulnerable in the game at the second thing.

Doc and Mario are pretty bad but people will complain them up or down depending on what flavour of the month it is.

Why are Doc and Mario that bad? They pretty much never get gimped and can't get hit by edgeguards from the stage, which means that in situations where they get knocked away but not far enough to give the edgeguarder time to set up they always recover.

Even when the edgeguarder has ledge invincibility, they can use their stalls to force the person edgeguarding to guess when to roll. A ton of characters get edgeguarded for free if they are below the stage and the person edgeguarding has the ledge.

 

[EPsilon933]

In terms of recovery, I was thinking...

1: Mewtwo
2: Jigglypuff
3: Peach
4: Pichu
5: Pikachu
6: Samus
7: Zelda
8: Ice Climbers (when together)
9: Kirby
10: Donkey Kong
11: Yoshi
12: Mr. G&W
13: Link
14: Young Link
15: Sheik
16: Marth
17: Mario
18: Captain Falcon
19: Luigi
20: Ganondorf
21: Bowser
22: Dr. Mario
23: Fox
24: Falco
25: Ness
26: Ice Climbers (when separated)
27: Roy

Just guesses, overall.

No. Very no.

Zelda is so easy to edgeguard. Fox is so not easy to edgeguard.

 

[Rappster]

I see. When exactly do you edgehog though? Whenever I attempt to do it, roy just uses his up-b and hits me, and then gets back on the stage. My friend just gets low enough below the stage to sweetspot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs&feature=related#t=2m20s
watch from 2:20 to 2:50

 

[JPOBS]

People should realize that literally 90% of the recoveries in this game flat out get beat by ledge-hop invincile bair 100% of the time. The option to NOT have to (predictably) sweetspot all he time is VERY important and there are only like 5 chars with this option (spacies sincluded)

Pikachu would be a top contender for "Difficulty to Edge Guard." There are so many ways to do quick attack.

grab edge->drop low-> bair

or, just fsmash the ledge. He can only sweetspot from above so he usually runs right into it. unless they go to a platform or something, but then they have mega lag so lol gg

 

[KAOSTAR]

I agree with jason. except since I said it first he has to agree with me.

falco isn't the 3rd worst recovery and mewtwo is 2nd best.

some people don't know how to be realistic.

"if falco is off the stage he is dead" tell that ***** to stop recovering then!

 

[MalwareDie]

Top Tier: Jigglypuff
High Tier: Mewtwo, Peach, Pichu, Pikachu
Upper Tier: Samus, Fox, Link
High Middle Tier: Falco, Zelda, Marth, Ice Climbers
Middle Tier: Young Link, Donkey Kong
Low Middle Tier: Sheik, Mario, Mr. Game & Watch, Dr. Mario
Low Tier: Luigi, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Kirby
Bottom Tier: Yoshi, Bowser, Popo, Roy, Ness

 

[JPOBS]

im not really understanding why everyone think's pikachus recovery is so fabulous, especially when being edgeguarded.

Sure it has a ton of range, but a little known fact is that pikachu (and im assuming pichu too but i know nothing about that char) can only sweetspot the ledge from above. This means that in order to ever recover (to the ledge) pika has to go above it, then downwards. this is bad because you can stick a Hitbox anywhere over the top of the ledge and pika will basically run into it 100% of the time.

Furthermore, the priority, hitbox, whatever you want to call it, on the B-up, is basiclaly non-existant. You can throw basically ANY move in the way and it will win. That means you dont even have to bother tryng to timing invicbility frames on your ledge hop, just ledgehop and throw a bair/nair/watever in the way and pika will run flat into it. With chars like marth and falco, u can even just fsmash from the stage.

and if pika tries to land o nthe stage, he has mega lag just like sheik. I know theres tricks like ledgecancelling the b-up on a platform (good luck) or timing it perfectly above the ground (again, good luck), but the overall point is, should you land on stage, you're combo bait.

i dunno, maybe most people just dont have pika experience, but her recovery is really easy to edgeguard imo because its predictable (they are always going to the ledge from above) or laggy (land on stage).

 

[Dark Hart]

watch this video from 2:20 to 2:50. its older than moses, but whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs&feature=related#t=2m20s

unfortuantley, edge-guarding Roy hasn't changed lol

 

[1048576]

Another thing about Falco is his land-on-stage lag is lower than most characters, so you can't just ledgehop-punish like you can with Zelda, Sheik, Marth, Pika, etc... (this is also mostly why I think Yoshi's is underrated.)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sveet, why would you put falco above fox? fox has double the distance, slower falling speed, and is less gimpable due to the firefox startup hitbox.

im just wondering about your opinion.

falco and fox are both pretty much dead if they must firefox in order to live. Definitely fox's upb has a few more uses because of the increased length, but there isn't much difference in actually edge guarding either.

In my opinion, there are three types of edgeguards. Any edgeguard where a character has the potential to jump on stage AND sweetspot the edge with his jump falls into one catagory. Any time a character can only grab the edge with his jump falls into the second. Any time a move must be used to grab the edge or make stage is the last.

The third category is the easiest possible to edge guard by far. you can edge guard any character who falls into this category fairly easily.

The second category has three mixups. Grabbing the edge, protecting the edge, and using an move for extra distance. All 3 can vary position, but other than timing they are treated the same. The main problem is that to someone standing on the stage, you pose no threat. Slight risk to the edge guarder if they go off stage. No risk for staying on the stage.

The first category is very similar to the second category, but you also have the option to attack to the stage if your opponent doesn't respect your space. Largest risk for going off stage. Small risk for standing on the edge.

So when I talk about who has the best recovery I think about who falls into #3 the most. Falco has a much higher jump which is why I placed him where I did. That jump allows him to stall in shine for quite a long time, and after reacting to his opponent, can either safely grab edge or dodge an off stage edge guard. For great examples on how to mix up your recoveries to avoid being gimped by falco watch zhu vs m2k from genesis. Lots of the things zhu did there were new to the national metagame at the time, or just getting attention.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

im not really understanding why everyone think's pikachus recovery is so fabulous, especially when being edgeguarded.

Sure it has a ton of range, but a little known fact is that pikachu (and im assuming pichu too but i know nothing about that char) can only sweetspot the ledge from above. This means that in order to ever recover (to the ledge) pika has to go above it, then downwards. this is bad because you can stick a Hitbox anywhere over the top of the ledge and pika will basically run into it 100% of the time.

Furthermore, the priority, hitbox, whatever you want to call it, on the B-up, is basiclaly non-existant. You can throw basically ANY move in the way and it will win. That means you dont even have to bother tryng to timing invicbility frames on your ledge hop, just ledgehop and throw a bair/nair/watever in the way and pika will run flat into it. With chars like marth and falco, u can even just fsmash from the stage.

and if pika tries to land o nthe stage, he has mega lag just like sheik. I know theres tricks like ledgecancelling the b-up on a platform (good luck) or timing it perfectly above the ground (again, good luck), but the overall point is, should you land on stage, you're combo bait.

i dunno, maybe most people just dont have pika experience, but her recovery is really easy to edgeguard imo because its predictable (they are always going to the ledge from above) or laggy (land on stage).

Quick Attack

Total (1 jump): 68
Total (2 jump): 81

Time to aim 1st jump: 13
Time to aim 2nd jump: 26

Hit: 13-18, 27-31

Landlag: 24
Landfallspeciallag: 4
that's not lagy really unless your dumb and up-B into the ground or f*** up your up-B spacing.


Agility

Total (1 jump): 71
Total (2 jumps): 87

Time to aim 1st jump: 13
Time to aim 2nd jump: 29

Landlag: 12
Landfallspeciallag: 1(!)

here's pichu's.


really I don't think you understand how many f***ing options they have I think we can argee we won't use every up-B option which would be 256 as pikachu and like 265 as pichu you may as well divide those numbers by half. but also jolts, and the option to run up the wall or not for jusr the 1st or 2nd and etc.

running up the wall is funny it goes slow then fast so it's harder to react and space. wall options that's like 2 more choices. smash side-B does help your recovery. but really even as pichu I can easily make it to the middle of the the stage. the edge issue isn't that bad because you can tech marth's f-smahs i've teched a few at a time as pichu with a worse sweetspot. no pikachu/pichu cover massive ground, have countless options, projectiles streamrool a path, little lag, and can just complettely go go around the edge gaurder or go like down right to up left to mix up recovery so it's impossible to predict them.

fair beats projectiles, knees, dittos, and other non disjointed moves.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

fox and falcos mid air jumps are the same height. its a common misconception to think falco has a higher mid air jump.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

falcos 2nd = upb= foxs 2nd jump plus up-b this is a fact.

 

[KAOSTAR]

im not really understanding why everyone think's pikachus recovery is so fabulous, especially when being edgeguarded.

Sure it has a ton of range, but a little known fact is that pikachu (and im assuming pichu too but i know nothing about that char) can only sweetspot the ledge from above. This means that in order to ever recover (to the ledge) pika has to go above it, then downwards. this is bad because you can stick a Hitbox anywhere over the top of the ledge and pika will basically run into it 100% of the time.

Furthermore, the priority, hitbox, whatever you want to call it, on the B-up, is basiclaly non-existant. You can throw basically ANY move in the way and it will win. That means you dont even have to bother tryng to timing invicbility frames on your ledge hop, just ledgehop and throw a bair/nair/watever in the way and pika will run flat into it. With chars like marth and falco, u can even just fsmash from the stage.

and if pika tries to land o nthe stage, he has mega lag just like sheik. I know theres tricks like ledgecancelling the b-up on a platform (good luck) or timing it perfectly above the ground (again, good luck), but the overall point is, should you land on stage, you're combo bait.

i dunno, maybe most people just dont have pika experience, but her recovery is really easy to edgeguard imo because its predictable (they are always going to the ledge from above) or laggy (land on stage).

first of all recoveries are "amazing" by comparison.

pikachu has great vertical, horizontal some ability to defend while off stage. pikachu has a side b which allows for jump saving. the up b is fast....twice, and does actually have a hitbox. landing lag is 4 frames or no additional. its very easy to not land into the stage.

who has a better recovery?

from below you would go up and the straight at the ledge, from above fade back and go down the straight at the ledge.

plus grabbing it from above isn't that bad lol.(u can get hit definitely but look at how many people can't sweet spot from above.)

its pro lol.

imo of the top

puff
mewtwo
peach
samus
pikachu
pichu

 

[Strong Badam]

fox and falcos mid air jumps are the same height. its a common misconception to think falco has a higher mid air jump.

Oh why hello there, allow me to consult the game itself on whether or not that's true.

Fox:
Normal Jump Initial Velocity: 3.68
Air Jump Multiplier: 1.2
Gravity: 0.23
Thusly
Double Jump: (1.2 * 3.68) / 0.23 = 19.2

Falco:
Normal Jump Initial Velocity: 4.1
Air Jump Multiplier: 0.94
Gravity: 0.17
Thusly
Double Jump: (0.94 * 4.1) / 0.17 = 22.670588

Shocking.

Maybe I ****ed up somewhere but this should be accurate. Magus420 would be able to correct me if anyone?!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ cool post :D

 

[1048576]

falco and fox are both pretty much dead if they must firefox in order to live. Definitely fox's upb has a few more uses because of the increased length, but there isn't much difference in actually edge guarding either.

Ehhh, not really. If Falco is one firebird away from the edge, he has one option. Go straight for the ledge. Easy stock. If Fox is one firebird away, he can go straight up, wallride, or aim right at you. Not every character given human reflexes can cover every option in that case. Also, firefox is safer because it has a hitbox at some point during charge, and it's harder to jump out and hit him in the heat of battle if he chooses to recover from far.

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea that was pretty cool lol....for a big monkey <3

 

[GreatRit]

ROY HAS **** RECOVERY
nuff said.

 

[_KuyaSombreo_]

ness for bottom tier

you dont even have to attack him to mess his recovery up

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

**** heas the best recovert, every1 else sjust suycks comapared so it doesnt even matter LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ehhh, not really. If Falco is one firebird away from the edge, he has one option. Go straight for the ledge. Easy stock. If Fox is one firebird away, he can go straight up, wallride, or aim right at you. Not every character given human reflexes can cover every option in that case. Also, firefox is safer because it has a hitbox at some point during charge, and it's harder to jump out and hit him in the heat of battle if he chooses to recover from far.

more possibility for error on the edge guarder's side isn't the same as more options.

****, half the cast can just fall off the stage with a nair or bair and tie with firefox. everyone else can grab edge and bair/dair until fox gets edge hogged. Hell, it may even take longer to kill fox, but that still doesn't matter if every option will be covered.

If you were to argue high option angles, you would have some sort of positive argument. The fact that fox can upb high and choose to go either for the edge or the TOP platform is a pretty wide range. The only problem is that its really easy to just swat fox in the face if he tries that.

In the end, i would call firefox a gimmicky recovery at best. It should really only work in a select few situations and otherwise the edgeguarder is simply doing it wrong.

 

[KAOSTAR]

marth-gimmick
mario-gimmick
doc-gimmick
peach-gimmick
d kong-gimmick
bowser-gimmick
roy-bad
puff-priceless.

you can edge guard all recoveries. very few are you able to constantly avoid all threats.

recovering is just situational. you just gotta maximize your chances by either predicting their edge guard or taking the safest route.

firefox is a pretty successful move. oodles and noodles of fun. its better because its not his only recovery. its all about options.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Man, I don't think I've legitimately edgeguarded a Peach on purpose. That parasol.


So unbeatable.

 

[JPOBS]

first of all recoveries are "amazing" by comparison.

pikachu has great vertical, horizontal some ability to defend while off stage. pikachu has a side b which allows for jump saving. the up b is fast....twice, and does actually have a hitbox. landing lag is 4 frames or no additional. its very easy to not land into the stage.

who has a better recovery?

from below you would go up and the straight at the ledge, from above fade back and go down the straight at the ledge.

plus grabbing it from above isn't that bad lol.(u can get hit definitely but look at how many people can't sweet spot from above.)

its pro lol.

imo of the top

puff
mewtwo
peach
samus
pikachu
pichu

the point is that regardless of how you try to get to the ledge, you still have to come DOWN to it.
Characters not being able to sweetspot from above is irrelevent. Being able to sweetspot below> sweetspot from above by MILES for the simple reason its much easier for basically the entire cast to stick a hitbox out above the ledge to **** pika, than it is to get one below the stage to edgeguard anyone else.

and i know up-b has "a hitbox" point is that pretty much any move beats it, simple fact.

Landing lag is 4 frames if you do the tricky thing where you finish ur Bup RIGHT above the ground or whatever and its much harder. If you freefall at all to the ground or b-up into it, your lag lasts like a million years.

being able to protect yourself offstage is irrelevent when your opponnt can sit on the edge and ledgehop free bairs

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

shut up jobs your dumb. read my early post till it sinks in. they have to many options that totally avoid the edge gaurder jolts are the greatest anti edge gaurder tool in this game besides for a peach with a bomb.

you don't have to come down you can come from under and tech and then go totally around the edge gaurder you can't solidly beat those recoveries.

your holding the edge I up-B once will you jump into bair or wait? he could go over the bair or under or hit you on the edge or land on the stage if you wait.

 

[JPOBS]

shut up jobs your dumb. read my early post till it sinks in. they have to many options that totally avoid the edge gaurder jolts are the greatest anti edge gaurder tool in this game besides for a peach with a bomb.

i was reading it till you tried to tell me pika/pichu have 256 viable options with their up-B then i realized i was reading garbage,

you don't have to come down you can come from under and tech and then go totally around the edge gaurder you can't solidly beat those recoveries.

Oh is that it? just tech the edgeguard and everything is dandy? why the fack would u even mention this, every character can tech for f***s sake this is pointless

your holding the edge I up-B once will you jump into bair or wait? he could go over the bair or under or hit you on the edge or land on the stage if you wait.

You dont have to wait. You just drop and bair. if they went for the edge/just above the stage pika just runs into it. If the pika decided to go high or something, congrats, free combo/kill move/send them back off.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

neat theories you have there I have a question?who's recovery is better than than theirs? also jolts beat edge hoging.

 

[JPOBS]

puff, peach, samus, mewtwo recoveries are better. Fox's is probably just as good. then againi pretty much only consider those 4 chars to have "good" recoveries. Pretty much everyone else you can just reliably bair until they die so im pessimistic like that.


i like how you tell me all i have is theories, when the only person you play is your brother. neat-o.

 

[Strong Badam]

You have to commit to 57 frames in order to thunder jolt, which is pretty much a second of you not being able to do anything and them being able to attack through your ****ty Jolt and hitting you because Pikachu and Pichu are both bad characters. Doctor Mario suffers from similar issues with his pills, as does Mario. You're a bit biased, ICG.

 

[Magus420]

Oh why hello there, allow me to consult the game itself on whether or not that's true.

Fox:
Normal Jump Initial Velocity: 3.68
Air Jump Multiplier: 1.2
Gravity: 0.23
Thusly
Double Jump: (1.2 * 3.68) / 0.23 = 19.2

Falco:
Normal Jump Initial Velocity: 4.1
Air Jump Multiplier: 0.94
Gravity: 0.17
Thusly
Double Jump: (0.94 * 4.1) / 0.17 = 22.670588

Dunno how dividing by gravity would result in a distance, but the difference between their 2nd jump heights is very small. What you calculated should be the time until they begin moving downwards (both of those you calculated rounded up are 1 less than when you can be FFing during the jumps which fits). If you wanted to find 2nd jump height you'd do something that creates the effect of:

Fox:
[(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 0)]
+ [(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 1)]
...
+ [(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 19)]
= 44.620 derpmeters

and

Falco:
[(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 0)]
+ [(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 1)]
...
+ [(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 22)]
= 45.632 derpmeters


This fits a lot more with what actually happens in-game (if you compare instant DJ onto the platform in the center of Temple, FoD, or on DL edgehop onto a side platform you can barely tell the difference in height between them).

 

[KAOSTAR]

the point is that regardless of how you try to get to the ledge, you still have to come DOWN to it.
Characters not being able to sweetspot from above is irrelevent. Being able to sweetspot below> sweetspot from above by MILES for the simple reason its much easier for basically the entire cast to stick a hitbox out above the ledge to **** pika, than it is to get one below the stage to edgeguard anyone else.

and i know up-b has "a hitbox" point is that pretty much any move beats it, simple fact.

Landing lag is 4 frames if you do the tricky thing where you finish ur Bup RIGHT above the ground or whatever and its much harder. If you freefall at all to the ground or b-up into it, your lag lasts like a million years.

being able to protect yourself offstage is irrelevent when your opponnt can sit on the edge and ledgehop free bairs

pika has like the fastest activated special fall. EASY! you are so wrong about the special fall. as soon as you start falling it is 4 frames when you land. its not a trick. its better than m2's sh tele.

falcon can't even sweetspot he does ok.

. so the problem is...? its viable to recover from below and above. not to mention teching is pretty standard.

pikachu has crazy distance. **** is good. he has options.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon does okay because despite his recovery he's still an okay character. Pikachu isn't even an okay character without taking into account recovery.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

2nd jump jolt is great I played mario dittos all say yesterday fireball 2nd jump fireball clears a path pichu's jolts are better because you can go for the edge OR around pichu gets more out of a good jolt than mario gets out of a good fireball.

but really WTf fox is just as good as pikachus and pichu's your f***ing ******** I gimp that s*** all day pretty tell me about how much you gimp pikachu's? also unlike what most people think pichu can survice from a shine even without a 2nd jump unless it's YS. but you guys are ********.

 

[Strong Badam]

You're right, we are all ******** because we disagree with you and use facts to argue rather than "Yeah I use this and it works against terrible players, it should work on good players too"

 

[Wretched]

neat theories you have there I have a question?who's recovery is better than than theirs? also jolts beat edge hoging.

what is this i don't even
the downward angle of the air jolt makes it so that if you're actually in a position where you're below someone and they can edgeguard you, then you can't hit with a jolt.
Plus those aren't theories.

Honestly, I think you're bad at this game. You can say that you can do things but I don't think you can apply them. You really are putting a damper on a lot of productive discussions and I think that you should think about your posts long and hard.


LONG AND HARD

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I have a question? Can you read? FACT fox is the easiest mothe f***er to gimp and it'snot even hard most of the time to gimp that s***. even when he has a chance to use ALL his options he's still f***ed. I even asked if there were better recoveries. I pointed out the facts and explained the frame data and etc. You stupid mother F***ers this isn't about you being wrong/right it's about facts his facts piakkachu's landing lag is like sheiks I pulled up frame data and poved one of his points wrong Right??????

yes I did no arguemnets about it is 4 frames lagy like 30 frames??? no is there some magic hard to do magic trick no it's in your face plain and simple.

he says they have to sweetspot the top of the edge so what's your point it's not like you can't tech it like anyone esle or take a different route or put yourself in a horrible spot. it's not that bad of a sweetspot as pikachu.

no I've proven all his points wrong and asked who would be better. Is my logic flawed when I say 4 isn't as lagy as 30? or you have more options as pikachu and jolts can be useful? AM I.

Strong Bad You fail you understand anything about me I go with what's right not my side. I think kirby wins in the pichu vs kirby match-up why? because mindgames can't count in a match-up therefore pichu can't really win solidly because if both players spacing is at the same level kirby should win most of the time. but in real life it's even.

 

[JPOBS]

pika has like the fastest activated special fall. EASY! you are so wrong about the special fall. as soon as you start falling it is 4 frames when you land. its not a trick. its better than m2's sh tele.

taken from ICGs post
Landlag: 24
Landfallspeciallag: 4

note landlag=24 frames

falcon can't even sweetspot he does ok.

the difference is, edgeguarding falcon when he can go high takes a bit of guess work. you cant all-purpose ledgehop bair his recovery cuz he could drift back to the ledge etc. Pika literally just runs into ledgehop bair because he cant control its direction once it starts. Granted you cud keep bairing falcon at the apex of his up-b no prediction required. why are we talking about falcon, he sucks.

. so the problem is...? its viable to recover from below and above. not to mention teching is pretty standard.

pikachu has crazy distance. **** is good. he has options.

i dont really know how you're going to tech a bair or something but meh whatever i give up trying to argue this pika still has the 5th best recovery or so, but its like winning a race at the special olympics.