Recovery Tier List

[Strong Badam]

Yes, Fox has bad recovery, we know. This is irrelevant to the discussion of Pichu and Pikachu's recoveries.

 

[JPOBS]

no one was even talking about pichu (well me anyway)

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

24 frames if you up-b into the freakin ground it's kindof like

Teleport

Total (ends in air): 32
Invincible: 8-17
Total (ends on ground): 46

Landlag: 30
Landfallspeciallag: 4

OMg 30 frames of lag wwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiitttt only if I drill my self into the ground heck pikachu it's easier to avoid up-Bing into the ground this isn't like avoiding sheiks massive up-B lag it's like 20x easier.


so pikachu's up-b woul be better if you could make it lik ea guessing game? there are mix-ups go low/high also if they are that high up to do what falcon does geuss what? they can land ANYWHERE on the stage with the 2nd jump they can just go to the other side with no lag D*** I wish their recovery was so bad it needed a geussing game.


I wasn't really talking about pichu either

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol special fall = 4.

activates as soon as you start falling. really ****ing easy to get the special fall.

with pikachu m2 pichu. really easy lol

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I have a question? Can you read? FACT fox is the easiest mothe f***er to gimp and it'snot even hard most of the time to gimp that s***. even when he has a chance to use ALL his options he's still f***ed. I even asked if there were better recoveries. I pointed out the facts and explained the frame data and etc. You stupid mother F***ers this isn't about you being wrong/right it's about facts his facts piakkachu's landing lag is like sheiks I pulled up frame data and poved one of his points wrong Right??????

yes I did no arguemnets about it is 4 frames lagy like 30 frames??? no is there some magic hard to do magic trick no it's in your face plain and simple.

he says they have to sweetspot the top of the edge so what's your point it's not like you can't tech it like anyone esle or take a different route or put yourself in a horrible spot. it's not that bad of a sweetspot as pikachu.

no I've proven all his points wrong and asked who would be better. Is my logic flawed when I say 4 isn't as lagy as 30? or you have more options as pikachu and jolts can be useful? AM I.

Strong Bad You fail you understand anything about me I go with what's right not my side. I think kirby wins in the pichu vs kirby match-up why? because mindgames can't count in a match-up therefore pichu can't really win solidly because if both players spacing is at the same level kirby should win most of the time. but in real life it's even.

This post is poorly written it made me side with Strong Bad by default

 

[Wretched]

I'd argue with him but i don't know what he is saying.

 

[JPOBS]

so pikachu's up-b woul be better if you could make it lik ea guessing game?

yes.

im not even kidding when i say you can all-purpose ledgehop bair pika out of his recovery because you know he's going to the ledge from above at a high speed which means he will run right into the bair.

with falcon, if u try to ledgehop bair him, sometimes it will miss because they cn do that wierd di in-di out thing. but falcons recovery sucks for other reasons so whatever.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Guys

Discussion and debate is fine and encouraged, but the flaming and the like is not. Tone down the flames and the language or infractions abound.

 

[Magus420]

pika has like the fastest activated special fall. EASY! you are so wrong about the special fall. as soon as you start falling it is 4 frames when you land. its not a trick. its better than m2's sh tele.

If you up-b straight upward from the ground you still aren't in special fall by the time you land. It takes like twice as long as Sheik's does before going into special fall. What version of the game are you talking about?

Edit: I'm getting the same thing in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL so it's not a version thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff
Mewtwo
Peach / Pichu
Pikachu

Samus's recovery is alright but those guys all have better recoveries.

Pikachu's recovery is debatable because he can get screwed by characters with good ledgehop Bairs but he can still recover from a while away and edgecancel it which is better than most people below him.

Fox's recovery is at least decent. Same with Falco. They're gimpable but they also have no lag when landing onstage and a billion tricks that result in a lot of things the opponent has to react to. They also can force 50/50s because of how many angles they can do and they instant-recover for free if they tech something. If you mess up against them, they also get a combo into one of their kill moves (high percent) or a sick launch that they can link their favourite combo moves off of (low and medium percent). Like Doc and Mario, they also have some stalls if you so choose to use them to feel people out if you're into that sort of thing. Also, walljump invincibility is situationally gay.

Someone said that Mario and Doc have like good-ish recoveries. And then a bunch of reasons like how you can't onstage edgeguard them. Alright, first, edgeguarding onstage works against like no character nowadays because of how awesome people are at teching and sweetspotting so the fact that it doesn't work on Doc and Mario is almost ignorable for me. Onstage edgeguarding doesn't work on Roy most of the time unless it's a Falco spike or something and he's at too low percent to tech or whatever lol. In terms of inescapable offstage edgeguards, they really can't defend themselves well against lingering moves because pills and fireballs get beaten by everything. They suffer from having recovery lag if they land onstage, which can be a huge issue against many styles of edgeguarding. Their stalls are bad and fairly useless against people that loop invincibility on the edge effectively because they just invite ledgehopped moves, or big hitbox moves. Most Doc players will attest to this. Their Up+Bs also don't have much actual range on them, which also bites.

Yoshi's recovery is bad for a lot of reasons. Partly because if he wants to apply pressure, do important combos, and do certain approaches he has to use his double jump and if he ever gets hit offstage without it, he's actually devoid of a recovery. If he has his jump, he's pretty resistant to gimps at low percent though because he can jump through anything that isn't Falco's Shine or Rest. But his recovery is still pretty poor.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm sorry but i've been uber p***ed all day since math I was about to kill someone and throw my deck through the wall but if you looked ta me it's be impossible to tell how angry I was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuu6vWJ1SqY 1st video I saw of SS being a geussing game is true for nearly every recovery. if you nearly exactly the angle puff was going to come recover and the pounds and etc.. you coould easily hit puff or bait her and junk like everyone esle. it's bit if a geussing game for everyone also please note the height that falcon was at if drakrain hadn't predicted SS and he tryed his up-B tricks think about pikachu being there he could quickly reach any point he wants he could go to the middle an dthen back and throw them up and being safer with less lag also so high up in the air air spped can be useed for tricks as everyone but like ice climbers.

but if pikachu was there he'd geuss without the mindgames. also who is better than pikachu's besides puff, peach, samus, m2.







at KK why's pichu's better than pikachu's?

 

[KAOSTAR]

If you up-b straight upward from the ground you still aren't in special fall by the time you land. It takes like twice as long as Sheik's does before going into special fall. What version of the game are you talking about?

Edit: I'm getting the same thing in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL so it's not a version thing.

obviously I was trippin lol. I think I was just confused by the two different animations when you land. 1 into the ground and 1 just on the ground. and probably some edge cancel **** like jpobs was actually saying.

I was thinking of something else I tried some time ago, I shoulda checked my sources again.

kk-why is pichus better? landing lag? and side b?

 

[KirbyKaze]

He has no landing lag whether he edgecancels or not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

god tier: puff
top tier: peach, mewtwo, pikachu/pichu
high tier: samus, ICs (synced)
upper tier: marth, sheik, falco
mid tier: fox, link, zelda
low tier: dk, yl, mario, gnw, doc
dont care enough to finish the list, i hope you realize that everyone else sucks balls

I stand by this list, except switching m2 and peach.

 

[KAOSTAR]

samus is better than pika and pichu.

bowser tho? that much worse than dk? similar imo but I think dk packs a bit more of a punch.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

samus... idk. the distance is quite good and there are definitely options for mixups, but after the bomb jump its still just a grapple and short upb. I could see samus being higher simply because she weights a ****ton more and lives twice as long.

 

[1048576]

Yeah Fox is better than falco

(duh?)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falco has more mixups than fox. i consider distance to be a lot less important than ability to get back to the stage without getting hit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox can edgecancel Illusion and force awkward behaviors with his Firefox angles from much further away than Falco.

I don't know what mixups your talking about. The only really notable extra thing that Falco can do is possibly Dair someone if they get too excited but Fox's Shine semi-spikes anyway.

Falco's Side B is faster, which can be nice.

 

[JPOBS]

sveet what are you talking about?

 

[john!]

hmm let's see... here's my opinion:

puff/mewtwo/peach/pikachu

samus/pichu/link/fox

kirby/yl/mario/marth

g&w/luigi/doc/falco

zelda/yoshi/ic's/dk/ganon

bowser/sheik/falcon/ness/roy

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pichu has a better recovery than Pikachu. I am 100% sure of this.

The only actual things it has going against it are the "You take damage thing" and the lack of a hitbox. The possibility of taking up to 4% is easily worth not ever having landing lag. Furthermore... nobody expects to hit people with Pikachu's Up+B during recovery, and it doesn't really accomplish much when you do - not in the way that Fox/Falco get a big combo or maybe even a KO.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you know even if pichu can double up-B easily his up-B is shorter by like 2 feet each jump and his jump is shorter and worse sweetspot.

i'd argee without if you said pichu's up-B is a better move but I'm not sure about this. also people fail to understand the self damage. it's basically punishment for missing or failing. so what this does in turn is makes it so pichu players miss their attacks a lot less which can cause them to space better and play smarter and if you land fair that sets up a grab and which will no matter what do at least 20%-death plus that 7% from fair.

you took 4% to do at least 25% even if you weight balncing it still is a good turn vs even bowser when it's be like taking 9% doing 30%. Think about smaus CCing to do a d-smash takes maybe 10% does 16% weighting differents is normally like doing 20% taking 10%.

compare the trades? pichu's is much better.

 

[KAOSTAR]

falco has more mixups than fox. i consider distance to be a lot less important than ability to get back to the stage without getting hit.

They have the same recovery except fox can do it from farther away. You can argue that some ppl may fear getting in between falcos side B, and his easier sweet spotting but as far as mind games with recovering they are exactly the same.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you know even if pichu can double up-B easily his up-B is shorter by like 2 feet each jump and his jump is shorter and worse sweetspot.

Part of what's nice about never having landing lag is that it greatly removes a character's dependency on grabbing the edge.

compare the trades? pichu's is much better.

I just said that.

 

[Cosmo!]

about fox vs falco recovery

people fail to realize this, but if falco does upB and then heads in an upwards direction, he has less time to fall before he can move again (because it is shorter). So in certain cases, where a character would be able to cover one option, fail, and then catch fox before he's safe, falco could get away.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well that makes sense. and I can respect that.

but on the other side of things..... when falco is just out of reach of making the edge in any way possible lol, fox can.

so it evens out really. Imo honestly more in foxes favor simple because with good DI you have more chances to recover on average and have a much great chance at recovering.

 

[soju]

Pikachu's recovery is predictable, difficult to sweetspot, and the quick attack drastically increases Pikachu's hurtbox. Platforms most of the time can help with his recovery, but needs to be done correctly to reduce lag, and the hurtbox his larger in the way that you can attack in front of pikachu from 10 feet away and it will hit, an example would be the match between Fumi and AK. It isn't seen often because many people don't actually know how to truly edgeguard pikachu and many pika pros are smart enough to not quick attack into the open. For sweet-spotting, it's almost impossible to sweetspot when your above the ledge and will most likely be hit if the opponent decides to attack. Which makes it so that a pikachu will want to go below the stage if it wants to sweetspot. Or it can go onto the stage, but it needs to do it a way so there is minimum lag. True it can get back to the stage from almost anywhere, but if someone knows what they are doing, it can be simple edgeguarding chu. XP

I got lazy and just summarized it towards the end I'll probably post all the pros of it later XD

 

[JPOBS]

If fox has to B-up up a distance far enough away from the stage that falco's wouldnt have made it at all, chance sare, his angle is 100% predictable by nature of his location and distance.

only exception being where he can ride the wall from far down, thats tricky to edgeguard.

 

[1048576]

platform options?
aiming for ledge despite being able to make stage

yeah come on, farther is better.

 

[KAOSTAR]

not really jpobs. just outside of falco's range fox has plenty of available angles.

also take into account being above the stage when you up b.

not to mention you can shine stall to get better angles.

or jump back b4 side b to throw off timing.

those both benefit from more range.


it would be rare for there to be situations falco would recover and fox wouldn't. if falco would just barely grab and would have a good angle, the fox player probably should have taken that same angle from farther away. only inexperienced players up b as soon as they can all the time.

both players are dead no matter what if they are at max range and somebody is on the stage. difference is fox can still make the stage or take another hit from falco's max distance. the recoveries are completely controllable. fox is just more capable of making it back.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

I think pichu's recovery is easier to edgeguard because its slower and each line is easier to follow. Its also shorter. IMO he should be tied with pikachu or below him.

 

[The Star King]

Lol, why is Fox vs. Falco even being debated?
-Fox's firefox charge burn protects him from edgeguarding
-No firebird charge burn means Falco is very vulnerable for the entire charge animation
-Fox's Side-B goes farther
-Fox's Up-B goes way farther
-Fox's initial Side-B animation can grab the edge (after the "ding", before he executes the dash)
-Falco falls faster

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falco stays in the air longer from his 2nd jump and gains more height. while at lower levels its pretty common to get away with a sideb or upb recovery when you have no option to jump and grab the edge, at higher levels of play you won't get away with it. Because of that, being able to safely grab the edge is very important.

I will admit, though, fox's firefox high sweetspot is more difficult to edge guard than falco's.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Dunno how dividing by gravity would result in a distance, but the difference between their 2nd jump heights is very small. What you calculated should be the time until they begin moving downwards (both of those you calculated rounded up are 1 less than when you can be FFing during the jumps which fits). If you wanted to find 2nd jump height you'd do something that creates the effect of:

Fox:
[(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 0)]
+ [(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 1)]
...
+ [(3.68 * 1.2) - (0.23 * 19)]
= 44.620 derpmeters

and

Falco:
[(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 0)]
+ [(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 1)]
...
+ [(4.10 * 0.94) - (0.17 * 22)]
= 45.632 derpmeters


This fits a lot more with what actually happens in-game (if you compare instant DJ onto the platform in the center of Temple, FoD, or on DL edgehop onto a side platform you can barely tell the difference in height between them).

lol. nice sveet. since falco falls faster its at least even.

fox can do everything falco can. only from farther away.

 

[Rykard]

idk why people are putting gannon so low on these things. I mean, sure he is easy to edgeguard since his sweetspot is horrible, but in terms of actually getting back to the stage, its incredibly hard to kill him with decent DI.

 

[TheGoat]

falco stays in the air longer from his 2nd jump and gains more height. while at lower levels its pretty common to get away with a sideb or upb recovery when you have no option to jump and grab the edge, at higher levels of play you won't get away with it. Because of that, being able to safely grab the edge is very important.

I will admit, though, fox's firefox high sweetspot is more difficult to edge guard than falco's.

I'm kind of confused here, why falco vs fox is even being debated in terms of recovery.

I wasn't able to decipher your statement completely, are you saying that falco has falco has better sweetspotting opportunities?

Also, I've heard that falco and fox have the same 2nd jump distance, not sure about that one.

idk why people are putting gannon so low on these things. I mean, sure he is easy to edgeguard since his sweetspot is horrible, but in terms of actually getting back to the stage, its incredibly hard to kill him with decent DI.

Because, that means once ganondorf is off the edge he's dead because he is so easy to edgeguard.
I know he has excellent range because of his downb, but it doesn't matter because your opponent will just edgeguard you all day long until you finally die.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

All Ganon's recovery succeeds in doing is delaying the inevitable UUUAAA

 

[Doc King]

Ok about this thread, I've already made a few recovery tier list, although it might be a little outdated. Check my user page on Smash Wiki.

Although I could use some of these ideas to make a 4th one if I need to.

 

[Kotu]

1. Falco
2.Fox
3.Young Link
4.Capt. Falcon
5.Samus
6.Luigi