Question: When is it okay to purposely try and profit from running a tournament?

[MattDotZeb]

I remember Moast 3 was my first national tournament and that one was run very well. Free housing, large venue, a hype finals room (not to mention some of the greatest finals ever), and an organized method of running the tournament that I have not seen since.

When they called people out over the loud speaker, the players would meet up at the table where the bracket was being run and be given a score card that directed them to a TV. The players played, recorded the score of the match, and it was the winner's job to return that score card to the table. I don't recall any other tournament using this method and from what I remember it worked very well. I wasn't TO though so maybe from their perspective it wasn't that great.

Woah.
That's such a cool idea!
I'm gonna try it at my next event.

 

[WassupJB]

agreed i may try that at don't go down there jeff.

 

[Shroomed]

This is a really good thread.

I can't believe that people are disrespectful to those that are housing them.
All my housing experiences have been pretty good so far. And I'm always as respectful as possible.

I won't even get a glass of water w/o asking. Who the **** would take ****?

 

[Laijin]

I remember Moast 3 was my first national tournament and that one was run very well. Free housing, large venue, a hype finals room (not to mention some of the greatest finals ever), and an organized method of running the tournament that I have not seen since.

When they called people out over the loud speaker, the players would meet up at the table where the bracket was being run and be given a score card that directed them to a TV. The players played, recorded the score of the match, and it was the winner's job to return that score card to the table. I don't recall any other tournament using this method and from what I remember it worked very well. I wasn't TO though so maybe from their perspective it wasn't that great.

Tournament quality is random IMO. I've been to tournaments that were hyped up and ended up lame and I've been to unhyped tournaments that turned out to be amazing. The advice I would give is learn what T.O's you like and if you plan to make a few trips for tourneys then hit up those guys.

A lot of people have been saying that the community is deteriorating but perhaps it is getting too large and people are taking advantage of that. If someone knows that a ****ty tournament could still bring in lots of players and make a profit then what's to stop them from doing it? Maybe people need to be more selective about the tournaments they choose to attend and that would stop feeding power to the bad T.Os.

whoa. this.
TOs should start trying this out. Plank? Alukard? Genesis TOs? Alex Strife?

 

[crismas]

Just thinking about it... people already have a hard time trying to get people to report their matches in general. Never mind trying to ask people to remember to record on a piece of paper. And then give the TOs excess things to manage. I think it's good for record purposes though (doesn't tio already take care of this though?) but I'm not sure how it helps to get those to report a match more so. I could be wrong though, doesn't hurt to try. But I feel like on a national scale that could be troublesome.

 

[Laijin]

But I feel like on a national scale that could be troublesome.

Moast3 was a national though....

 

[crismas]

I realize that. But Forward said himself, he wasn't the TO so he wasn't sure how well it worked. I'm honestly thinking about it from the TO's perspective of having to manage more things than needed. Not saying it didn't/couldn't, just my viewpoint atm I'll ask Alex what he thinks later tonight

 

[Plairnkk]

With how many people? I think that is a good idea for brackets. The main issue for time at a national tournaments is pools though. Especially since so many of these players are unknown/don't know each other, it's extra tough. It's easy to make a bracket FLY as long as you're a decent TO. Pools requires more help and a more thorough process (one in which I'm trying to implement at Pound 5 because people can't be trusted to run pools efficiently on their own anymore, I think there are too many people

 

[Hazygoose]

i think everyone understands that it seems excessive and is obviously just more things to do. but like many said before, the scene is very dissimilar to what it used to be in many regards, and one of those is simply the fact that most people practically have to be babysitted since they take rules for granted and knowing most TOs won't do anything about it. match charts would be excessive for the TO and crew indeed, but at this point tournaments are in need of a simple old thing like that in order to keep tournaments at all behaved. either that or like plank said the TO can just grow balls and implement the rules like an enlightened despot.

 

[pockyD]

i think the answer is fairly simple: get someone not in the pool to run the pool, and give them the authority to DQ if they feel necessary

 

[Ben-Teezee]

i think the answer is fairly simple: get someone not in the pool to run the pool, and give them the authority to DQ if they feel necessary

plank this is what ur doing at pound 5 right? regardless i 100% agree with this statement.

 

[Plairnkk]

yep ill have multiple captains to oversee 4 pools each i believe. their job is to keep people playing matches, dq people if necessary, record results, and bring me the pool sheets

 

[Helios]

Amazing thread, gives me hope! =)

 

[Mike G]

Amazing thread, gives me hope! =)

Agreed

Moast 3 was amazing.

 

[NeutralDamage]

It's always okay. You should always do it as much as you can. The more money you get, the better.

 

[HelpR]

TOs should be allowed to profit from tournaments, and the TO created the tournament and helped it run. However...

The amount they profit is a rather big question. The TO should be allowed to dip into profits after all costs of running the tournament are paid for, after all, they put work into the tournament, and it's not unreasonable to expect the TO would want some cash for putting alot of work in. It's human to want some sort of reward for all your work.

However, raising the venue fee for the express purpose of profit is unreasonable.
Cutting corners for a profit is also unreasonable.

profit should never be the main motivation to run a tournament, and any TO that goes in with the express purpose of making a profit will likely be very disappointed, as some form of transparency will always come into play, and people will eventually find out.

 

[Inferno3044]

My opinion is dependent on the venue owner wants their money. If you explain the to venue owner that you will charge a venue fee and will give all that money to them and they agree, you shouldn't profit. If they say that they want a certain amount of money, then there shouldn't be a problem with profiting. For example, if the venue wanted $300 but people payed $350 in venue fee, I would split the $50 between the people who helped me. I do think that you should explain the venue fee regardless of the circumstance.

 

[CEOJebailey]

With how many people? I think that is a good idea for brackets. The main issue for time at a national tournaments is pools though. Especially since so many of these players are unknown/don't know each other, it's extra tough. It's easy to make a bracket FLY as long as you're a decent TO. Pools requires more help and a more thorough process (one in which I'm trying to implement at Pound 5 because people can't be trusted to run pools efficiently on their own anymore, I think there are too many people

I was browsing around this forum just checking on things since I'm planning an even bigger CEO event next summer than the last that you helped me with Plank, Check your Facebook hopefully you're interested in the nice 18,000 sq ft Venue I have right in the middle of International Drive.

As for this thread topic it all depends on the community, but if a TO is fair and takes NOTHING out of the pot money and charges a sensible venue fee he more than deserves to profit from it. Putting together a big multi day tourney can be very taxing on the organizers that put on a good event. It's always the first timers and idiots that think they can run tournaments to make a living off them and that is why they will always fail.

I run all the Major Street Fighter Tournaments in Orlando and while I do make money that is worth my time from my events I usually put that money back and buy more TVS and Xboxs for future tournaments and all players are happy and that's why they keep coming back.

So a Good tournament and organizer should and deserves to profit and most of them do it for the love of the community and the game, the people just in it to make a living always end up disappearing after their one and only event and robbing people of the pot money as I've seen happen many times when people try to compete with me in my area.

Anyways Keep yours Eyes pealed smashers, Hungrybox is already on board to help me for my June 10-12th Event. So check on my site www.ceogaming.org for announcements coming soon for a Big Fighting Game Championship Event in Orlando Next Summer.

 

[Juno McGrath]

I was browsing around this forum just checking on things since I'm planning an even bigger CEO event next summer than the last that you helped me with Plank, Check your Facebook hopefully you're interested in the nice 18,000 sq ft Venue I have right in the middle of International Drive.

As for this thread topic it all depends on the community, but if a TO is fair and takes NOTHING out of the pot money and charges a sensible venue fee he more than deserves to profit from it. Putting together a big multi day tourney can be very taxing on the organizers that put on a good event. It's always the first timers and idiots that think they can run tournaments to make a living off them and that is why they will always fail.

I run all the Major Street Fighter Tournaments in Orlando and while I do make money that is worth my time from my events I usually put that money back and buy more TVS and Xboxs for future tournaments and all players are happy and that's why they keep coming back.

So a Good tournament and organizer should and deserves to profit and most of them do it for the love of the community and the game, the people just in it to make a living always end up disappearing after their one and only event and robbing people of the pot money as I've seen happen many times when people try to compete with me in my area.

Anyways Keep yours Eyes pealed smashers, Hungrybox is already on board to help me for my June 10-12th Event. So check on my site www.ceogaming.org for announcements coming soon for a Big Fighting Game Championship Event in Orlando Next Summer.

Heres a post i was looking forward to, I think that most smash TO's dont deserve to make the money because they dont purchase cubes/TV's for melee or wii's for brawl.

I went to CEO1 and I have to say the SSF4 tournament was one of the most well run tournaments I have ever seen. If anyone deserves to make cash from hosting, its people like you or plank.

/Meat ride...

 

[Laijin]

I was browsing around this forum just checking on things since I'm planning an even bigger CEO event next summer than the last that you helped me with Plank, Check your Facebook hopefully you're interested in the nice 18,000 sq ft Venue I have right in the middle of International Drive.

As for this thread topic it all depends on the community, but if a TO is fair and takes NOTHING out of the pot money and charges a sensible venue fee he more than deserves to profit from it. Putting together a big multi day tourney can be very taxing on the organizers that put on a good event. It's always the first timers and idiots that think they can run tournaments to make a living off them and that is why they will always fail.

I run all the Major Street Fighter Tournaments in Orlando and while I do make money that is worth my time from my events I usually put that money back and buy more TVS and Xboxs for future tournaments and all players are happy and that's why they keep coming back.

So a Good tournament and organizer should and deserves to profit and most of them do it for the love of the community and the game, the people just in it to make a living always end up disappearing after their one and only event and robbing people of the pot money as I've seen happen many times when people try to compete with me in my area.

Anyways Keep yours Eyes pealed smashers, Hungrybox is already on board to help me for my June 10-12th Event. So check on my site www.ceogaming.org for announcements coming soon for a Big Fighting Game Championship Event in Orlando Next Summer.

Wow I'm quite surprised you posted in my thread. :O
Thanks for the awesome post.
I'll make it to the next CEO if I can. Last CEO was pretty awesome.


btw are you Alex Jebailey?
If so..next time watch out for thieves. Things getting stolen at a tournament should never happen

 

[CEOJebailey]

Wow I'm quite surprised you posted in my thread. :O
Thanks for the awesome post.
I'll make it to the next CEO if I can. Last CEO was pretty awesome.


btw are you Alex Jebailey?
If so..next time watch out for thieves. Things getting stolen at a tournament should never happen

Yes I'm Alex Jebailey and still to this day all my friends close to me wonder who the prick was that stole my iPhone at my own damn event that I put my heart and soul into. Lesson Learned that no matter how hard the good people go out of their way to do something, there will always be scum to try and ruin it.

But hey because of my phone being stolen I was knocked out early and shocked everyone which led to this hilarious Video of my demise and the aftershock lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFiyePdUGms.

Sucks too the guys I lost to(My mind was gone once my cell phone was stolen) until this day have still never ever beaten me but hey I made them famous for a weekend which in turn helps the community.

Anyways thanks for the nice posts about CEO 1 Last year. Definitely couldn't of done it without Plank and Hungrybox's help. I learned a lot from Plank before that event and was happy to work with him and hope we can do it again next year.

PS here's the thread Hungrybox started for me for CEO 2011 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=293104

 

[Plairnkk]

it looks like im vacationing to florida for my birthday again

 

[Laijin]

I didn't feel so bad after you lost to that guy since that was the same guy that beat in first round. haha.
Either way, I'm gonna try and make it down there. I still have a bunch of friends that live in Orlando so I'll always have housing. Hopefully this time I won't get murdered in the SSF4 tournament again. x__x

Edit: I read the website incorrectly.

 

[Stevo]

some good discussion in here.

Manacloud was the worst thing to happen to the smash community. <Brawl Hate>

Spoiler

besides Sakurai making brawl maybe lol

</Brawl Hate>
I attended OC2, and from what I hear, OC3 was much worse.

I think for large scale tournaments, it might be alright for the TO to make some money, as they do put a lot of effort in. However, I would love for all the financial stuff to be right out in the open and done before hand. That being said, it is nearly impossible to predict everything, and unforeseen costs can will arise. Therefore, being as open as possible is the best you can do. (of course some people will still complain though)

I think making a couple bucks per person per day is fair.

I would love for things to be "for the community" like the good ol days, but if profit is required for TOs to even consider running a tournament, then so be it. I'm not sure great tournaments would even happen these days otherwise.

The community is definitely not what it used to be. (in general, this is not a stab at TOs, but everyone)

 

[Ryuker]

Looks like this thread derailed a lot but for the good this time.

In Europe we've also had some issues with this but not nearly as large and much as you guys seem to be having.

One of the main reasons why I always hear these accusations at the end is because the TO doesn't state they are planning to make a profit in the tournament thread. I think it's perfectly fine to make a profit of a tournament if the TO clearly states that he'she intends to. It's up to the players then to decided if they still want to go.

In the dutch community we bought some tv's for smashNL about a year back to run smoother tournaments. It has taken a few tournaments but we are now out of debt. The TO's clearly stated this on our forum so everyone in the community was aware and we knew where the extra money was going to.
A different brawl tournament didn't state this correctly and as you can guess their were a lot of accusations afterwards.

I don't think it's ever ok to make a profit if you don't state it before hand. Except when the TO later earns some money for their hard effort (it would be like doing charity work then asking for payment instead of being offered it afterwards). I think it's common decency that a TO is transparent about this but I don't think this is always the case. It should be.

If this keeps popping up then it might be a good idea that our community sets some regulations for this.
A TO could state in the OP that the tournament follows these regulations which would protect both the TO and the players. If one of them crosses the line then you know what's up.

I don't like the idea of this slowly turning into our own law system though. But we could atleast use this to protect our community from "bad" TO's and direct the attention to the tournaments that do attend to these regulations and are hosted by "good" TO's.

I prefer decency and trust though but if it's becoming a big problem I think we should protect our community from this.

But that's just my opinion...

 

[Pritch]

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole profit issue, but I just thought I'd chime in on the DQ part of the discussion.

It is COMPLETELY the player's responsibility to be at their matches on time, and if they're not then the TO absolutely should remove them from the tournament. No question about it. I play in tons of magic: the gathering tournaments, and standard practice at those is 5 minutes late is a game loss (matches are 2 out of 3, same as melee) and 10 is a loss of the match. I've said for a while that that should be the standard for our tournaments as well, particularly for large ones. If you're not willing to take the 2 seconds to check the bracket (or god forbid ASK someone in charge when your next match is likely to be happening) then that's really your own problem.

And 3 hours late is totally absurd. I don't care if you're the best player in the world and everyone is dying to see your matches, if you're that late you're gone, no questions asked.

 

[blindghost]

I asked this question to at least twenty different smashers today. I got varied answers, but there was a pattern.

Maybe we can get back on target?

Most super old school smashers: "Never. It is never okay to try and profit from running a tournament."

Most kinda old school but not really smashers: "Sometimes. If their putting a lot of effort for the tournament its kinda like treating it as a job"

New smashers: "I don't see problem at all with it"

Have you thought that of a correlation of the age and wisdom?
Old smasher=mature and wise to smash
New smasher=immature and lacking experience in the scene
THEREFORE: those that actually know wtf their talking about realize what a **** hole tournaments are like?

---I don't really think that your grouping new and old to to those particular groups is accurate, either...

The profit margins for running tournaments should be small. The host usually doesn't have a ton of set-ups, materials, chairs, proper AC, and a bunch of other essentials. I think it's just ******** what passes for playable TV's... There was a TV at WATO that didn't have sound once. Another circumstance was a black and white TV. And those 10" TV's are unplayable.

There are too many issues that could be addressed by taking any profit of the TO's and putting that back into the community by buying set-ups, chairs, and other materials.

 

[metalmonstar]

In the old days people hosted tournaments so that they had people to play against. Tournaments then were held in basements, apartments, or houses. Nowadays tournaments are hosted in lan centers, churches, schools, venues. New smashers expect setups, chairs, tables, and space. So it is not really wise and unwise it is more about taste. It is a shift or maturing of the community. Host have moved out of the basement and into a more professional environment. It also takes a lot more time to organize and run an event than before. This is why new smashers don't organizers making money.

I don't get the whole openness thing. Are TOs participating in some kind of accounting fraud or are you looking to invest? If they make money off the venue fee than so be it. You knew the price and you were willing pay it. If you didn't like the price then you shouldn't have gone. The money is going somewhere and someone is profiting. If you like your TO and trust them wouldn't you rather it go to them than to the vendor?

You don't demand this kind of openness for other places you do business with.

Anyway I have more to touch on, but I will get to that later.

 

[Laijin]

In the old days people hosted tournaments so that they had people to play against. Tournaments then were held in basements, apartments, or houses. Nowadays tournaments are hosted in lan centers, churches, schools, venues. New smashers expect setups, chairs, tables, and space. So it is not really wise and unwise it is more about taste. It is a shift or maturing of the community. Host have moved out of the basement and into a more professional environment. It also takes a lot more time to organize and run an event than before. This is why new smashers don't organizers making money.

I don't get the whole openness thing. Are TOs participating in some kind of accounting fraud or are you looking to invest? If they make money off the venue fee than so be it. You knew the price and you were willing pay it. If you didn't like the price then you shouldn't have gone. The money is going somewhere and someone is profiting. If you like your TO and trust them wouldn't you rather it go to them than to the vendor?

You don't demand this kind of openness for other places you do business with.

Anyway I have more to touch on, but I will get to that later.

uhh dude. People have been playing in venues outside of their houses since the beginning of the community. Its not something new bro.
In fact some of the earliest tournaments in maryland had a very nice venue supplied by Chillindude.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think TOs should get to keep excess profit no question as long as they put a reasonable amount of money and effort into the tourney, and the payouts arent suspicious.

If they plan on taking X amount upfront then IMO that should be disclosed but I dont think you can expect that because in the end as long as the tourney is ran well and it doesnt feel like money is "missing"

Its hard work, but for the most part prices are upfront and payouts should be listed b4 hand. That way u kno what ur puttin in and what ur getting out.

 

[CEOJebailey]

This will sum everything up as to when a TO deserves to make a profit,

When he puts hard work into making a badass trailer like this for his event

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctq7BmKq-J0&feature=player_embedded

 

[Laijin]

Everyone should go to CEO this year. That trailer is hype.

 

[Rubyiris]

I believe that it's fair for a TO to either break even, or make profit from the event, if he/she makes it readily aware that it is his/her intent.

 

[Problem2]

TOs need to cover their costs. Tournament attendees do not want to get gouged. There is a very simple solution to this tug of war between groups.

The TOs should provide an up front set of costs that must be covered in order to break even. They should set up some type of online account (perhaps paypal) and set a deadline for attendees to deposit their venue and entry fees. Once all costs are met and the attendance deadline passes the TOs can simply reimburse the attendees for whatever is left over. If costs can not get covered by the attendance deadline then the tournament can be canceled and all attendee deposits can be refunded.

If there are worries over costs associated with damage to a venue then insurance can be included in the venue fee and be refunded once the tournament has concluded.

I do not attend tournaments but I gather that there is very bad problem with transparency among the tournament organizers. If a TO refuses to explain costs, BEFOREHAND, then smashers can easily speak with their wallets and boycott a tournament. If a TO has offended in the past simply make a thread about it and force a response and accountability on their part.

just a thought

nonono. The potential for scammers not reinbersing for canceled tournaments is tooooo high.

 

[Alukard]

Im really trying not to be that guy ... but eat your ****ing words homie

 

[Laijin]

Im really trying not to be that guy ... but eat your ****ing words homie

huh? How does what happened change the point of the thread? If anything it kinda reinforces the point.

Edit: Never mind. I see where you're coming from. haha. But this is a pretty important lesson for all the community and I can only see negative things coming from this.

Lets get some intelligent discussion flowing. What do you guys think should be done to avoid something like this from happening in the future?

 

[Stevo]

what actually happened? Planks post was removed or something

 

[Laijin]

Plank is unable to pay out the people who placed at Pound 5. He overestimated how many people were going to be able to attend, and thus as a result had to use the prize money to pay for the under booked hotel and venue.

Basically thats what happened.

I fear the effect this will have on the community at large.

On one hand, a man's word is his honor, and Plank should work to pay all he promised. He took the chance, miscalculated, made a poor investment, and now others suffer because they trusted his word. He himself admitted to not telling us about the problem before the event, but we had a right to know. We were invited to Pound on false pretenses and charged to come. Essentially, that is lying and stealing.

I certainly do not blame Plank alone in this, but truth be told, he messed up. Even more dishonorable is him leaving a blanket post saying sorry to all. I do not need apologizing to, my own coffers are unaffected. If Plank was truly sorry for anyone but himself, he would apologize to each winner personally. Instead, he has chosen to flee because he can't bear the shame? I have no respect for such cowardice.

However, one thing I will grant is that Plank repeated his wished that we abide by the rules to have only 4 people to a hotel room MANY TIMES over. For this reason, I cannot truthfully cast curses on Plank for his actions. If people were not willing to acquiesce to his request, then we should be expecting such consequences. Plank's own pocket was hurt because people did not obey his conditions. National tournaments cannot expect to be run smoothly if people aren't willing to pay their share. Based on Plank's explanation, those who were ****ed out of money were because of debts to the hotel. Had people all stuck to 4 in a room, then the room quota would've been fulfilled, and this would not have been an issue. If we as a community (and I say we, because I'm certainly guilty of staying in a room with many people) weren't willing to do this, simply protesting would've been better than sneaking many people into one room. This is also lying and stealing.

While I think Plank's expectation to have hundreds of Smashers break their tradition of cramming many people into few hotel rooms to save money is unrealistic, it is still our fault as well. I hope from this that we ALL (Plank and the entirety of the Smash Community) realize the merits of honesty. Now, many people will have to suffer due to the lack of integrity of us all, and hence we have all harmed each other.

I do feel that we can grow from this and move forwards, and everyone takes their own valuable lesson from Pound V. I certainly had a good time, and my condolences go out to all of those who have lost money, especially those who traveled from far.

 

[Euclid]

what actually happened? Planks post was removed or something

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12313739&postcount=700

 

[-Ran]

My views:

1) Local tournaments are for your community, and you should only charge what is necessary to run them.
2) Larger tournaments [100+ people] require a vast amount of energy and personal upfront expenses by the main TO. It is near impossible to run a LARGE tournament and enjoy it as a player. I believe that a fair wage should be obtained [~$1 per entrant.] Don't forget to hit up the people that helped you with food, etc.
3) I somewhat feel that a TO should attempt to build a 'battle chest' of funds to throw larger tournaments. For example, if you charged an extra dollar for every monthly tournament and held onto it for six months, with an average of 30 players. You'd easily have $180 which could then be used to sweeten the pot for a regional tournament. This would offset any uncertainty of turn out.