-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Question: When is it okay to purposely try and profit from running a tournament?
- Thread starter Laijin
- Start date
pockyD
Smash Legend
i think that might be a bit naive
in the real world, the organizers/planners/executives almost always make more than the competitors/lowlevel participants
in the real world, the organizers/planners/executives almost always make more than the competitors/lowlevel participants
g-regulate
Smash Hero
id be happy to pay a larger venue fee and have the TO make however much he wants, but it needs to be earned..... i.e.
adequate setups
speedy bracket/pool making
printed pool sheets
sound system of some kind
reliable scheduling
sensible and clear rule/stagelist
adequate chairs
breathable space around the venue
just an overall comfortable experience
i have no problem with a TO making money..... but if these things are lacking then the TO isnt earning his pay.
adequate setups
speedy bracket/pool making
printed pool sheets
sound system of some kind
reliable scheduling
sensible and clear rule/stagelist
adequate chairs
breathable space around the venue
just an overall comfortable experience
i have no problem with a TO making money..... but if these things are lacking then the TO isnt earning his pay.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea. Personally I'd say paying 20 is much more understandable as long as these things are provided. But really, especially for people flying across country, or driving 6+ hours, they really deserve this regardless of what they pay in venue imo.
Venom NY
Smash Lord
They helped when it came down to recording matches if it wasn't for them we really wouldn't have as much footage, so im very happy about them helping us out with that....I was actually one of the two people actually trying to get results and such, so yeah...
Venom NY
Smash Lord
Im glad you said this pocky...I numbered the tv's for a reason. When Prog and Alukard started calling out matches I told them and then repeated to everyone that was actually trying to listen
If they had pool 1 play on tv 1 and so and so forth but EVERYONE decided to go wherever the **** the wanted and that was such a frustrating feeling man like seriously....me and alu tried to make things run smooth but ALMOST NOBODY COOPERATED and its just completely ridculous, its like people REALLY wanted me to walk up to them and scream it in their f'ing ears.
OverLord
Smash Ace
In Italy we actually don't have money prizes, so the tourney fees are always just made for paying the venue, and the TOs never gain any money from organizing. We are not a large community, the biggest tournaments here got at best 55 entrances, so it's certainly easier to control all those people, but actually we don't feel like earning money from the tourney it's good. We think that the attendance for the tourney and the organizing should always be made just for the will of playing and love for the game.
The main organizer/ruler of the community it's Dax, and it's been years now since he helps everyone to continue play and come to tournaments, and he never earned any money from organizing. I remember one year ago when a tourney was canceled last minute, he managed to get a venue in a week and organized another one to replace the other, letting ALL the participants sleep in its own house 'cause of inability to sleep at the venue.
I think these are examples of true caring for the community and the game.
Personally I don't blame a TO who earns something from the tourney, but I don't think that this earning should be more than just a refund for the money/time spent for the event. It's crazy for me thinking of someone gaining more than the first place of the bracket.
About the problems with running on time:
every tournament I've been has always had this problem, all I can suggest is doing some things we sometimes do in Italy:
Every TV got a number, and thus every pool should have its own numbered TV, pool 1 - TV 1, and so on, so everyone should know where to play.
Tournaments matches have always the right to be played before friendlies.
Every pool should have one of the players in that pool designed to control that all the matches are played on time and to check that all the rules are not broken. Usually the designed player is the Top Seed one.
I was at RoM3 and when I was trying to find a TV to play my second round of pools I had to wait for another pool to finish 'cause some people was playing friendlies and told me that those were tournaments matches. This should never happen.
The main organizer/ruler of the community it's Dax, and it's been years now since he helps everyone to continue play and come to tournaments, and he never earned any money from organizing. I remember one year ago when a tourney was canceled last minute, he managed to get a venue in a week and organized another one to replace the other, letting ALL the participants sleep in its own house 'cause of inability to sleep at the venue.
I think these are examples of true caring for the community and the game.
Personally I don't blame a TO who earns something from the tourney, but I don't think that this earning should be more than just a refund for the money/time spent for the event. It's crazy for me thinking of someone gaining more than the first place of the bracket.
About the problems with running on time:
every tournament I've been has always had this problem, all I can suggest is doing some things we sometimes do in Italy:
Every TV got a number, and thus every pool should have its own numbered TV, pool 1 - TV 1, and so on, so everyone should know where to play.
Tournaments matches have always the right to be played before friendlies.
Every pool should have one of the players in that pool designed to control that all the matches are played on time and to check that all the rules are not broken. Usually the designed player is the Top Seed one.
I was at RoM3 and when I was trying to find a TV to play my second round of pools I had to wait for another pool to finish 'cause some people was playing friendlies and told me that those were tournaments matches. This should never happen.
ChRed2AKrisp
Smash Master
when i've run small tourneys (20-30) people, in md-va, there's 0 venue fee, I pay my own entrance fees, and when there have been discrepancies between how much money is available(maybe someone got registered with out paying, etc) then I pay the difference out of my own pocket.
That being said, my tourneys were never complicated(small numbers) and run late, though usually not significantly so. There isn't really a sense of rush because the tourneys are small and get done by like 10 at the latest, so there isn't a need to be as strict. They're mostly just md/va, though in the past we usually got a carful or so of tristate.
Still when I was running them, I did put a fair amount of work into it, moving all those TVs around etc. The end of the day sucked D:
Still, I was happy to have an excuse to get a bunch of people together in a fairly organized manner and smash. I paid money and worked for that to happen.
Do I think TOs should make money off of tourneys? I'm in the yes and no crowd. In my case I certainly didn't deserve to profit. Some tristate players like eggm would come knowing they stood to make some money, and in a small tournament pulling my entrance fee from the tourney was significant.
In the case of someone like, chu, though, I could never understand it. A $3 "electricity" fee? Seriously? He would get like 20 people in 2 rooms and wonders why people didn't like paying a $3 venue fee for a tournament with $5 entry fees, in his parents house, when I doubt his parents even got any of the money. Didn't even pay his own venue fee. and he wondered why not many people showed up?
The first tourney I ever went to at his place was back in 04. and that probably deserved it. We had like the entire first floor, and it was all saturday. Now, like I said, we basically have like a room and a half, and start playing at like 6:30 pm. I don't remember paying a venue fee, either.
In the case of big tourneys, I feel like it's fine for the TO to profit if he takes the steps to make sure everything is perfect. It felt like that a pound.
I was not at RoM3. I was at RoM 1 and 2. I am well aware that Alu makes a killing off these tourneys, and I don't begrudge him that. Or, I wouldn't, if we didn't have things like people having to sit on concrete, people randomly trying to find each other for matches, pools, etc. Hell at RoM2 I was barely able to make out whose pool I was in, because I couldn't hear Alu at all over everyone talking. You make 2500 bucks in two days, and you couldn't get like a basic loudspeaker? Or a projector with the info on it?
So I don't hate on making a lot of money on these tournaments, but when there are such simple things you could do to make the experience a lot better, it feels almost like you're spitting on me. I didn't pay for RoM3 and didn't attend, because I didn't feel it would be a good use of my time and money.
For perspective, pound 4 had a much larger venue, a much better venue, was more organized, etc, and it had...the same venue fee.
The one thing I'm not going to touch is delays. This is NOT just TOs being lax. It's the community as a whole. Like Venom was saying earlier, players simply don't treat tournaments like a tournament. This was true even at pound. When I went to play my match with m2k in round 2 pools, he asked if I'd rather just play friendlies. He set it to 99 stock and I didn't push it and just played until tantalus came by after like 17 stock and threatened to DQ us.
People don't keep track of what they're doing, don't write their results on their pools sheet, don't report the results of matches, just go places. DQing would help in some cases, like if the player is present at the tournament, but left to go do something like get lunch without checking to make sure they wouldn't have to play soon, but there are a lot of things they you can't enforce constantly and can't really DQ for. The community as a whole needs to learn a bit of professionalism at large tournaments, and take things seriously. They make it a pain in the *** to TO, and then complain about delays.
So in summary, the fault lies both with TOs and players. TOs lax a bit, players then relax, TOs can't stop it and lax more, etc. Vicious cycle. Now tourneys start hours late, and no one really knows why. As to whether TOs should make money from tourneys, they should make money based on what they put in, which is unfortunately hard to quantify. I would say for big tourneys, treat it like a real job, and set some amount to pay yourself by the hour, and price the tournament accordingly. If you come out with extra, cool. But 2500 in two days of, say 14 hour workdays, is like 90/hour, which is ridiculous.
That being said, my tourneys were never complicated(small numbers) and run late, though usually not significantly so. There isn't really a sense of rush because the tourneys are small and get done by like 10 at the latest, so there isn't a need to be as strict. They're mostly just md/va, though in the past we usually got a carful or so of tristate.
Still when I was running them, I did put a fair amount of work into it, moving all those TVs around etc. The end of the day sucked D:
Still, I was happy to have an excuse to get a bunch of people together in a fairly organized manner and smash. I paid money and worked for that to happen.
Do I think TOs should make money off of tourneys? I'm in the yes and no crowd. In my case I certainly didn't deserve to profit. Some tristate players like eggm would come knowing they stood to make some money, and in a small tournament pulling my entrance fee from the tourney was significant.
In the case of someone like, chu, though, I could never understand it. A $3 "electricity" fee? Seriously? He would get like 20 people in 2 rooms and wonders why people didn't like paying a $3 venue fee for a tournament with $5 entry fees, in his parents house, when I doubt his parents even got any of the money. Didn't even pay his own venue fee. and he wondered why not many people showed up?
The first tourney I ever went to at his place was back in 04. and that probably deserved it. We had like the entire first floor, and it was all saturday. Now, like I said, we basically have like a room and a half, and start playing at like 6:30 pm. I don't remember paying a venue fee, either.
In the case of big tourneys, I feel like it's fine for the TO to profit if he takes the steps to make sure everything is perfect. It felt like that a pound.
I was not at RoM3. I was at RoM 1 and 2. I am well aware that Alu makes a killing off these tourneys, and I don't begrudge him that. Or, I wouldn't, if we didn't have things like people having to sit on concrete, people randomly trying to find each other for matches, pools, etc. Hell at RoM2 I was barely able to make out whose pool I was in, because I couldn't hear Alu at all over everyone talking. You make 2500 bucks in two days, and you couldn't get like a basic loudspeaker? Or a projector with the info on it?
So I don't hate on making a lot of money on these tournaments, but when there are such simple things you could do to make the experience a lot better, it feels almost like you're spitting on me. I didn't pay for RoM3 and didn't attend, because I didn't feel it would be a good use of my time and money.
For perspective, pound 4 had a much larger venue, a much better venue, was more organized, etc, and it had...the same venue fee.
The one thing I'm not going to touch is delays. This is NOT just TOs being lax. It's the community as a whole. Like Venom was saying earlier, players simply don't treat tournaments like a tournament. This was true even at pound. When I went to play my match with m2k in round 2 pools, he asked if I'd rather just play friendlies. He set it to 99 stock and I didn't push it and just played until tantalus came by after like 17 stock and threatened to DQ us.
People don't keep track of what they're doing, don't write their results on their pools sheet, don't report the results of matches, just go places. DQing would help in some cases, like if the player is present at the tournament, but left to go do something like get lunch without checking to make sure they wouldn't have to play soon, but there are a lot of things they you can't enforce constantly and can't really DQ for. The community as a whole needs to learn a bit of professionalism at large tournaments, and take things seriously. They make it a pain in the *** to TO, and then complain about delays.
So in summary, the fault lies both with TOs and players. TOs lax a bit, players then relax, TOs can't stop it and lax more, etc. Vicious cycle. Now tourneys start hours late, and no one really knows why. As to whether TOs should make money from tourneys, they should make money based on what they put in, which is unfortunately hard to quantify. I would say for big tourneys, treat it like a real job, and set some amount to pay yourself by the hour, and price the tournament accordingly. If you come out with extra, cool. But 2500 in two days of, say 14 hour workdays, is like 90/hour, which is ridiculous.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Just like to add on Chu Dat. Not only does he charge everyone electricity fee, which literally goes straight into HIS pocket but he also NEVER pays entry to his own tournaments and sometimes even takes money from the pot itself(people getting paid less than they should). And he wonders why no one goes to his bi weeklies....
Great posts guys!
Great posts guys!
All of my tournaments have the option to be INCREDIBLY cheap if you are RESPONSIBLE and plan ahead. They only get more expensive at the end. You had entire say in the pricing. You could buy anything you wanted, I just included the venue fee into the prices to make it more convenient. Oh also the venue at Pound wasn't some toy store warehouse.
I don't even remember you beyond the name so..... yeah....im glad to know you dislike me as a person
Players need to be on time at a national. If you are already making such a big commitment, be on time. Exceptions happen, but it's important to keep people informed. Don't be 3 hours late of the announced start time and never contact the TO, then on your way out of the hotel smash the liquor bottles you drank underage in the hotel the previous night on the ground right outside the hotel lobby and then be even more late because they see you and force you to clean it up. So really yeah I can see how it is MY fault that your experience was ruined.
If you didn't notice, *Pound* 4 was the biggest tournament EVER. Disqualifications have to happen for the tournament to finish on time. This can ruin experiences and I am truly sorry to those I have to do it to, but it is a necessary evil. DQ'ing doesn't necessarily make you a good TO but not DQ'ing makes you a bad one.
Well now im only posting cuz im super mad at how u just randomly decided to bash *Pound* 4 in return just because someone made a comparison that my tournament was better ran and more functional.
Also Chred, your post was really good.
Hazygoose
Smash Lord
chred's post was amazing. great insight.
Theres sooooo many things that you guys are over simplifying. The fact that i paid for tons of things while not being a person with an amazing financial state. There were and are a ton of expenses that went into the tournament that doesn't seem like it is alot. But you are forgetting how ROM started to begin with ... it was originally supposed to be a monthly that turned into bashing mango and then sparked into a national. When that happened i almost had a nervous breakdown because i didn't even know how to begin with controlling that many people nor did i have the awesome huge venues alex and plank attain. So i really am offended and hurt greatly by this whole ordeal. I then hosted 2 and 3 because 1 was sooooo amazing because it felt like the first tourney i been too just with more people and that was smashtality 2 ran by WOZ. I really try to have everything fair like i even put myself in a death pool for singles because i didn't want to do it to someone else.(basically screwing myself) shoutouts to sion and lovage for being soooo good.
Also wow at me making 2k must have me mistaken for the store owner. Aziz someone who is supposed to be my friend would actually say something that absurd is ridiculous like i'm really hurt!
I also want to make it CLEAR that no sleepy waffles nor prog helped with RUNNING THE TOURNAMENT besides a random "hey call out these matches cuz my throat hurts". yes they helped with recording ... and YES they offered to help even more but i declined.
I bought chairs(i'm sorry it was apparently not enough because i honestly didn't think this was going to be bigger then ROM2), paid for people that were driving tv's to and from the venue for me also taking people to the airports, food for myself and my sister gf bestfriend "staff", transportation for myself as well as staff I DO NOT HAVE A CAR!,entrance fees for some people that helped a ton like G$.
All these false accusations make me feel like crying and never TO'ing again ... i'm really hurt that people would say sumthing like this. I really dont know what to say except i tried to make everyone happy and always try to make the best of what i have. If i could get a venue/equipment like apex or pound i would =[
Sorry everyone i thought everyone enjoyed ROM's. BTW u might as well change the thread title to **** YOU ALUKARD/ROM
EDIT i do not want prog waffles or sleepy to think i'm saying that they didn't do **** but i just wanted to state that u guys didn't help with the initial RUNNING of the event. You guys kno i love ya and thanked u.
Also wow at me making 2k must have me mistaken for the store owner. Aziz someone who is supposed to be my friend would actually say something that absurd is ridiculous like i'm really hurt!
I also want to make it CLEAR that no sleepy waffles nor prog helped with RUNNING THE TOURNAMENT besides a random "hey call out these matches cuz my throat hurts". yes they helped with recording ... and YES they offered to help even more but i declined.
I bought chairs(i'm sorry it was apparently not enough because i honestly didn't think this was going to be bigger then ROM2), paid for people that were driving tv's to and from the venue for me also taking people to the airports, food for myself and my sister gf bestfriend "staff", transportation for myself as well as staff I DO NOT HAVE A CAR!,entrance fees for some people that helped a ton like G$.
All these false accusations make me feel like crying and never TO'ing again ... i'm really hurt that people would say sumthing like this. I really dont know what to say except i tried to make everyone happy and always try to make the best of what i have. If i could get a venue/equipment like apex or pound i would =[
Sorry everyone i thought everyone enjoyed ROM's. BTW u might as well change the thread title to **** YOU ALUKARD/ROM
EDIT i do not want prog waffles or sleepy to think i'm saying that they didn't do **** but i just wanted to state that u guys didn't help with the initial RUNNING of the event. You guys kno i love ya and thanked u.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
wow ppl still dont kno how this works...
1. why are u guys even concerned about what people are making? i dont think anyone is playing smash as a full time job for their wife n kids.
2. why wouldn't the organizer make more than the winner? u guys think playing for a couple hours has greater value over months of planning and organizing? think of all the things to be considered in running a good tourny. even running a tourny that didn't turn out for the best, still takes alot of work.
3. lets say the TO isn't the best TO... it doesn't matter. you guys kno how this works. things like not reporting matches, playing in the TO's face when they say to listen up, not knowing where ur pool is. stupid **** like that is what slows things down.
imo ROM3 was just fine. ppl came, played great matches and there was constant hype. what else do u need? do u guys come to tournys just to point out things that could have been done better. if ROM's weren't so good canada, cali, midwest and south wouldn't come 3 times in a row
1. why are u guys even concerned about what people are making? i dont think anyone is playing smash as a full time job for their wife n kids.
2. why wouldn't the organizer make more than the winner? u guys think playing for a couple hours has greater value over months of planning and organizing? think of all the things to be considered in running a good tourny. even running a tourny that didn't turn out for the best, still takes alot of work.
3. lets say the TO isn't the best TO... it doesn't matter. you guys kno how this works. things like not reporting matches, playing in the TO's face when they say to listen up, not knowing where ur pool is. stupid **** like that is what slows things down.
imo ROM3 was just fine. ppl came, played great matches and there was constant hype. what else do u need? do u guys come to tournys just to point out things that could have been done better. if ROM's weren't so good canada, cali, midwest and south wouldn't come 3 times in a row
hungrybox
Smash Legend
oh ****. this is g$, hbox left himself logged in at my crib... das 10 more bucks hbox. lol, dip
Bones0
Smash Legend
Just a quick note about P4 DQs (side-side note: I registered for Pound 5 singles and venue for just $20... that's legit; if you get ripped off from Pound 5 it's cause you procrastinated... >_>, I hear some people complaining about people being DQed for being an hour late, etc. and then I also hear people complaining about it running into Monday. Sorry peeps, but you can't have it both ways. Either scheduling must be strict, which means players will be DQed, or players can be accomadated for, and the tournament will run mad late. Personally, I'd rather have the former. Maybe put something in place for people who end up coming late like a entrance refund? That way if someone gets gayed over by a flight delay and really has no control over it, they can get their entrance back and there's no major harm done in the bracket. Obviously you don't want random byes in the middle of brackets, but at least the players won't be able to complain about you being too strict since they didn't lose anything. Once you are at the venue and have played matches though, that's no excuse. Don't leave for lunch or stupid stuff or you will get DQed, simple as that. I would say the latest ruling should be 15 minutes late, you lose game 1. 30 minutes late, you lose the set. Not sure how much that would hurt timing, but I wouldn't think even 5 min for game 1 and 15 min for game 2 would be bad. It really depends, but after 30 minutes I don't care if you're freaking Jesus. Jman reference? The world may never know.
As a player I should not have to waste more than 30 minutes of my time at a tournament waiting for an opponent who was well aware of what time he may be called for a match. While the players who are late payed to experience the tournament, so did the people waiting 30 minutes for the guy who feels like he can just go out and get lunch cause he probably won't ever get DQed for being 30-45 minutes late. If I wasn't so eager to get good competition these days, I would personally ***** at a TO until my opponent got DQed if he was later than what was specified in the tournament rules (which probably seems like it's going against having respect for the TO, which is why I would probably never do it... probably >_>).
Also, just throwin' this out there, not trying to be a **** and NOT saying this is the case with RoM, but I would be absolutely disgusted if I ever heard someone made $1,000 a day from running a smash tournament because that is STUPID. Even with no experience at all, I could hold an AMAZING tournament with that kind of funding at my disposal. Time constraints and crap wouldn't even be an issue because you could hire so many **** people to just walk around and literally babysit people while they play their matches. I'm all for throwing the TO a bone for his effort, but 2 ****ING GRAND?! That is absurd. As a general rule, no TO should PROFIT more than $5 a person attending, and that only becomes reasonable when you are talking about a GLOBAL tournament where you're flying in players from around the world.
Now personally, I hate TOing. Just not my style cause I hate enforcing stuff personally. I've run like 5-6 local tourneys with rather low attendance. I was hired by the venue as an actual employee, and the owner made the deal with me that we would charge $10 a person, and I would get $2 from each person for all the extra work it took to organize stuff. At every one, I opted out of my $2 split and instead lowered the venue to $8. Note that I had been to a small tourney hosted by Tantalus and a Smashfest hosted by Pakman; other than that, I had NO EXPERIENCE whatsoever being at a tournament, let alone running one. The third tournament I definitely was overwhelmed as I had 15 people entering Melee singles, as well as a decent-sized group of Project M people. Epsilon and JCaesar both helped me out a lot as I wasn't even familiar with TIO yet, and signing up basically consisted of me walking around asking people if they were playing. Looking back I got quite lucky all the players were mature enough to play their matches without me hassling them, and I had a ton of setups to work with so playing friendlies didn't even get in the way. By the end of the tournament, I had haphazardly distributed all the money and realized I was missing $30. I told my owner and luckily he bailed me out with money out of his own wallet to pay back Cactuar (really am sorry about that mang), and basically it was the worst Melee experience of my life. >_> A few tourneys later only like 8 or 9 people showed, including Milkman and two of his friends from SoVa (mind you, the venue was **** far for even central MD folk) so I ended up paying something like $70 because I didn't feel right charging people money to drive 1.5 hours+ to play a tiny *** group of people.
Moral of my story of a small TO tryin' to make it in the big empty *** MD county? I don't ****ing know; all I know is TOing sucks. But seriously:
- Players need to have MAD respect for TOs.
I've only gone to a single Shell Shocked tourney since I hosted my tournaments, but I made it my mission there to always ensure I play my tournament match as soon as possible and avoid friendlies (barring extra setups, and even then I was conscious of whether or not any players needed a station). I really shouldn't have to explain this though; everyone knows what they SHOULD be doing, it's just a matter of just manning up and doing it. Seriously; play your matches and finish on time; record your results, and help out the TOs in general when you can. Let them know they have a spare setup for a tourney match or if you see people playing friendlies when/where they shouldn't be, tell them to have some respect and let people finish their matches first (or at least let the TO assistants know).
- TOs need to have MAD respect for the integrity of their tournament.
I didn't feel like people got their money's worth, so I refused to take their money and dealt with it myself. I made it my problem. At the same time, I feel like if I ever ran a tournament again and it happened to be decently sized, and I decided I wanted to profit, I would say something like "Venue Fee: $5 (I am keeping 10% of the venue as reimbursement for work/time/effort/getting setups/renting the venue/whatever)". That way everyone would know exactly where the money's going, and if they don't like the idea of me making 10% for the work I'm putting in, they can simply choose to not attend. I feel if I did end up doing something like this, the people who have been to my tournaments, while not the greatest, can safely say from experience I am not out to scam the community and probably wouldn't mind basically assuring I at least break even by the end of the day.
- TOs should have a plan and stick to it.
This is actual concrete advice, zomg. I know. Basically what I mean is let people know what you expect of them, and they are much more likely to adhere to your demands as TO. Obviously schedules must be flexible, but I really think a good schedule is the best way to stay on time. This is another thing I never had to really deal with for my tournaments because there were always a ridiculous amount of setups (Wenboooooo!) to assure we finished well before the ending time. Still, having an outline and letting people know they have to be back from lunch by 1:00 or w/e is a pretty effective way of making sure they don't miss matches. If you just say, "don't leave for lunch cause we might call your match" players eventually end up guesstimating how long it will take for the current round or w/e to finish and will try and leave and come back. Then when you go to DQ them, they are all "ZOMG!" cause you weren't clear about what you wanted.
It doesn't just apply to time frames, though. People playing friendlies, from what I've HEARD, sounds like it is a big cause of delays in tournaments. You're probably never going to have 100% efficiency (unless you're Plank and for Pound 5 you have an entire section of TVs devoted to tourney matches, like WTF dude too good) of no friendlies during bracket, but you can probably minimize friendlies that are interfering by dedicating some of the TVs to a friendly section. Obviously if you take out a row of TVs just for friendlies you will run a bit slower, but it's better than leaving all the TVs open for brackets and people trying to sneak in and then they end up taking up 4 rows with friendlies. I've also thought about putting red cups on top of TVs that are for tournament matches. When you call matches, players both go up to you/someone helping you and receive a red cup. The cup says the # of the TV to play on, the players who should be playing, and then when they are finished they return the cup at the TO station and write in their scores. This has the added benefit of being able to put the cup on top of the TV while they play so TOs/TO helpers can quickly figure out which matches are currently being played and which TVs are open. Like I said, I'm no pro TO and frankly have no desire to, but I feel little tricks like these along with respect for and from TOs, players, spectators, and the general community could add up to make the tournament experience much better for everyone.
I have class at 7:50 AM... FML -_-
As a player I should not have to waste more than 30 minutes of my time at a tournament waiting for an opponent who was well aware of what time he may be called for a match. While the players who are late payed to experience the tournament, so did the people waiting 30 minutes for the guy who feels like he can just go out and get lunch cause he probably won't ever get DQed for being 30-45 minutes late. If I wasn't so eager to get good competition these days, I would personally ***** at a TO until my opponent got DQed if he was later than what was specified in the tournament rules (which probably seems like it's going against having respect for the TO, which is why I would probably never do it... probably >_>).
Also, just throwin' this out there, not trying to be a **** and NOT saying this is the case with RoM, but I would be absolutely disgusted if I ever heard someone made $1,000 a day from running a smash tournament because that is STUPID. Even with no experience at all, I could hold an AMAZING tournament with that kind of funding at my disposal. Time constraints and crap wouldn't even be an issue because you could hire so many **** people to just walk around and literally babysit people while they play their matches. I'm all for throwing the TO a bone for his effort, but 2 ****ING GRAND?! That is absurd. As a general rule, no TO should PROFIT more than $5 a person attending, and that only becomes reasonable when you are talking about a GLOBAL tournament where you're flying in players from around the world.
Now personally, I hate TOing. Just not my style cause I hate enforcing stuff personally. I've run like 5-6 local tourneys with rather low attendance. I was hired by the venue as an actual employee, and the owner made the deal with me that we would charge $10 a person, and I would get $2 from each person for all the extra work it took to organize stuff. At every one, I opted out of my $2 split and instead lowered the venue to $8. Note that I had been to a small tourney hosted by Tantalus and a Smashfest hosted by Pakman; other than that, I had NO EXPERIENCE whatsoever being at a tournament, let alone running one. The third tournament I definitely was overwhelmed as I had 15 people entering Melee singles, as well as a decent-sized group of Project M people. Epsilon and JCaesar both helped me out a lot as I wasn't even familiar with TIO yet, and signing up basically consisted of me walking around asking people if they were playing. Looking back I got quite lucky all the players were mature enough to play their matches without me hassling them, and I had a ton of setups to work with so playing friendlies didn't even get in the way. By the end of the tournament, I had haphazardly distributed all the money and realized I was missing $30. I told my owner and luckily he bailed me out with money out of his own wallet to pay back Cactuar (really am sorry about that mang), and basically it was the worst Melee experience of my life. >_> A few tourneys later only like 8 or 9 people showed, including Milkman and two of his friends from SoVa (mind you, the venue was **** far for even central MD folk) so I ended up paying something like $70 because I didn't feel right charging people money to drive 1.5 hours+ to play a tiny *** group of people.
Moral of my story of a small TO tryin' to make it in the big empty *** MD county? I don't ****ing know; all I know is TOing sucks. But seriously:
- Players need to have MAD respect for TOs.
I've only gone to a single Shell Shocked tourney since I hosted my tournaments, but I made it my mission there to always ensure I play my tournament match as soon as possible and avoid friendlies (barring extra setups, and even then I was conscious of whether or not any players needed a station). I really shouldn't have to explain this though; everyone knows what they SHOULD be doing, it's just a matter of just manning up and doing it. Seriously; play your matches and finish on time; record your results, and help out the TOs in general when you can. Let them know they have a spare setup for a tourney match or if you see people playing friendlies when/where they shouldn't be, tell them to have some respect and let people finish their matches first (or at least let the TO assistants know).
- TOs need to have MAD respect for the integrity of their tournament.
I didn't feel like people got their money's worth, so I refused to take their money and dealt with it myself. I made it my problem. At the same time, I feel like if I ever ran a tournament again and it happened to be decently sized, and I decided I wanted to profit, I would say something like "Venue Fee: $5 (I am keeping 10% of the venue as reimbursement for work/time/effort/getting setups/renting the venue/whatever)". That way everyone would know exactly where the money's going, and if they don't like the idea of me making 10% for the work I'm putting in, they can simply choose to not attend. I feel if I did end up doing something like this, the people who have been to my tournaments, while not the greatest, can safely say from experience I am not out to scam the community and probably wouldn't mind basically assuring I at least break even by the end of the day.
- TOs should have a plan and stick to it.
This is actual concrete advice, zomg. I know. Basically what I mean is let people know what you expect of them, and they are much more likely to adhere to your demands as TO. Obviously schedules must be flexible, but I really think a good schedule is the best way to stay on time. This is another thing I never had to really deal with for my tournaments because there were always a ridiculous amount of setups (Wenboooooo!) to assure we finished well before the ending time. Still, having an outline and letting people know they have to be back from lunch by 1:00 or w/e is a pretty effective way of making sure they don't miss matches. If you just say, "don't leave for lunch cause we might call your match" players eventually end up guesstimating how long it will take for the current round or w/e to finish and will try and leave and come back. Then when you go to DQ them, they are all "ZOMG!" cause you weren't clear about what you wanted.
It doesn't just apply to time frames, though. People playing friendlies, from what I've HEARD, sounds like it is a big cause of delays in tournaments. You're probably never going to have 100% efficiency (unless you're Plank and for Pound 5 you have an entire section of TVs devoted to tourney matches, like WTF dude too good) of no friendlies during bracket, but you can probably minimize friendlies that are interfering by dedicating some of the TVs to a friendly section. Obviously if you take out a row of TVs just for friendlies you will run a bit slower, but it's better than leaving all the TVs open for brackets and people trying to sneak in and then they end up taking up 4 rows with friendlies. I've also thought about putting red cups on top of TVs that are for tournament matches. When you call matches, players both go up to you/someone helping you and receive a red cup. The cup says the # of the TV to play on, the players who should be playing, and then when they are finished they return the cup at the TO station and write in their scores. This has the added benefit of being able to put the cup on top of the TV while they play so TOs/TO helpers can quickly figure out which matches are currently being played and which TVs are open. Like I said, I'm no pro TO and frankly have no desire to, but I feel little tricks like these along with respect for and from TOs, players, spectators, and the general community could add up to make the tournament experience much better for everyone.
I have class at 7:50 AM... FML -_-
Venom NY
Smash Lord
It really is crazy how people assume **** when they don't know wtf is going on. Also one thing that chred said that grabbed my attention alot *although i did find his post insightful* was saying that alu gets 2500 in 2 days get a megaphone.....like ok 1) we do not get paid until the job is done 2) we are not rich, we can't afford everything *edit* 3) noone made that much LOL
There is so much that honestly I talked to alu about one of them of course was getting a megaphone I honestly even offered to put money in the pot (and I dont have alot of money to begin with) like seriously I don't think anyone understand the effort that was actually put into this by alukard. Like alu said earlier he helped out alot of people with venue, I remember him letting waffles slide and him being extremely happy that he did that for him because of the situation he was in, also he had a offer going with setups...you bring setups you get a discount, basically saying you help us we help you.
People do not know how expensive it is to live in NYC FORREAL FORREAL.
There is so much that honestly I talked to alu about one of them of course was getting a megaphone I honestly even offered to put money in the pot (and I dont have alot of money to begin with) like seriously I don't think anyone understand the effort that was actually put into this by alukard. Like alu said earlier he helped out alot of people with venue, I remember him letting waffles slide and him being extremely happy that he did that for him because of the situation he was in, also he had a offer going with setups...you bring setups you get a discount, basically saying you help us we help you.
People do not know how expensive it is to live in NYC FORREAL FORREAL.
Bones0
Smash Legend
While I empathize with your situation, you have to realize people are naturally going to wonder where their money is going to, so if you could just type up a spreadsheet with all the income/expenses you made, people would be a lot less quick to judge you as someone out to make dat money. But seriously, just type up a list of the number of entrants, how much money came in for entries, how much went out for prizes. How much came in for venue, and how much all of the venue was spent on. The best way to protect yourself as a legit TO is to be as transparent as possible, so that way people can't say **** without directly calling you a liar.
Ok i really dont see every tournament host do this but ima try to do so although i dont have all my recipts for kfc dunkin donuts staples costco verbal agreements but ny cut from venue is 4$ per. And i did post how many entrants and how much payouts were everything else went to venue. It wasnt a rented venue... It was just a set venue fee and he gets as much as x amount of players ... I in no way kept that a secret from anyone if u ask anyone that talks to me about the tournament ... I dont know wat else to say i made 500$ i think thats pretty dam fair i really dont know wat else to say
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
It depends on who you are I think, I think its ok for GameClucks (Tourneyplay host) to profit from tournaments cause thats his business, he owns a lan center and al . Same goes for MLG, but its a little fuzzier for a smasher from the community to profit from it. I think its only a problem because traditionally it doesnt happen and it takes from the pot. But if your putting all your time and effort into running a tournament and getting the venue paid for I really don't see the problem in profiting from it as long as your not taking a nice big chunk out of the pot. I mean sure most of the players at nationals and worldwide tourney's wont ever see a cent of it but for the top 15 that do it sucks to get handed $20,$40,$100 less than you thought you were getting. In short I think it is ok for smashers who put on BIG tournaments to profit from them, they did after all go through all of the trouble of setting up a tournament so hundreds of smashers could fly in from across the country to have some fun.
But guys running smaller 5$ local tourney's should just charge a venue to get that paid for and not take a cut from the pot for their time.
But guys running smaller 5$ local tourney's should just charge a venue to get that paid for and not take a cut from the pot for their time.
Whoa again pot does not get touched at all its totally different from venue. Pot is/was and forever will be exactly wat is put in ... Anyway i need to go to bed its 5 am ... Good **** trollin me laijin i dont even feel like hosting anymore because of these bull**** accusations. Because i barely paid my phone bill and i ran three roms. U dont see me rollin up in a brand new car
Brian you're completely misinterpreting my post. read the disclaimer at the top: i don't care how much money you made or that you made a profit, you act like that's not typical of people hosting events. you and i should know this better than anyone.. when we go to pokemon tournaments we're playing for cash prizes of $300-$500 coming out of a multi-billion dollar company's pocket yet we're still cool with this. clearly $20 was enough of a fair price to get me and 160 other people to come so none of us are bashing you. not only would i expect TO's to profit from hosting nationals (i dunno about monthlies but nationals for sure), but if you only made $500 then i feel bad because that's not much
my unbiased opinion is that Strife is still the most considerate TO, i hope this isn't part of what offended you. he went out and spent not only the entire surplus venue fee but money out of his own pocket to make his tourney better so that's just my honest opinion. it would be disrespectful to him to give this award to anyone else
you're the most minor offender out of all the national TO's other than Strife when it comes to profiting off of tournaments. the only reason you're coming into question is because ROM3 was the most recent tourney. whether its $500 or $2440 that is pocket change compared to what Plank/Ken+Manacloud have made in the past. take that last statement with a grain of salt because once again i don't care if a TO profits off of me, especially not when its that little
my unbiased opinion is that Strife is still the most considerate TO, i hope this isn't part of what offended you. he went out and spent not only the entire surplus venue fee but money out of his own pocket to make his tourney better so that's just my honest opinion. it would be disrespectful to him to give this award to anyone else
you're the most minor offender out of all the national TO's other than Strife when it comes to profiting off of tournaments. the only reason you're coming into question is because ROM3 was the most recent tourney. whether its $500 or $2440 that is pocket change compared to what Plank/Ken+Manacloud have made in the past. take that last statement with a grain of salt because once again i don't care if a TO profits off of me, especially not when its that little
imo alu deserves what he made if not more for putting this together
lets say he spent 20 hours preparing for this
thats 20 hours of work he did
plus the 2 days he spent at the tournament
thats 2 days he could have spent working
500 is a fair amount for all that work
he probly should have made more
lets say he spent 20 hours preparing for this
thats 20 hours of work he did
plus the 2 days he spent at the tournament
thats 2 days he could have spent working
500 is a fair amount for all that work
he probly should have made more
Beat!
Smash Master
Lol, TO's should be able to charge as much money as they want for entry/venue fee, as long as they're clear with it in advance. If one doesn't like it, he/she could just decide against going, or host their own tourney.
Then of course, if the tournament was hosted poorly, you could ask for some sort of refunding, if the fee was very high, but complaining about the fee itself afterwards is just dumb.
Then of course, if the tournament was hosted poorly, you could ask for some sort of refunding, if the fee was very high, but complaining about the fee itself afterwards is just dumb.
@Alukard: I don't remember who said it, but the need for transparency is really all that should be taken from this thread. Being able to account for why there is a venue fee, and breaking down where that venue fee is going. Hax was misinformed earlier in that he assumed there was a flat fee paid out to the venue, which is where that $2000 idea came from. You having later stating that you get 20% of the venue fee ($4 of $20) per entrant helps us have a more accurate view. I really don't believe its wrong at all for the TO to make some money from running a tournament.
@Pocky, in the real world it would be naive, but I simply can't accept a comparison like that. We are run by the community. If an individual in the community is making more money than top placers, even considering the time it takes to secure a venue, equipment, and advertise, there is going to be some backlash for it.
I really like the idea of the TO having a % of the venue fee, because they are rewarded for drawing more players in. This also prevents having that kind of issue in case the costs for running the tournament are flat and known going into it. Extra money past the flat venue and the TO % can be used to increase the payouts and increase interest in the tournament.
The biggest issue with the OC3 scandal was that no transparency was really provided. Ken and Manacloud never really let on where the money was going. The venue was a PoS and, even when being generous with what was provided by the TO, such as food, and then going further and looking at the cash prize, which was about that of a 200 person tournament with $10 entry fees, it was apparent that there was an enormous amount of money that went unaccounted for.
@Pocky, in the real world it would be naive, but I simply can't accept a comparison like that. We are run by the community. If an individual in the community is making more money than top placers, even considering the time it takes to secure a venue, equipment, and advertise, there is going to be some backlash for it.
I really like the idea of the TO having a % of the venue fee, because they are rewarded for drawing more players in. This also prevents having that kind of issue in case the costs for running the tournament are flat and known going into it. Extra money past the flat venue and the TO % can be used to increase the payouts and increase interest in the tournament.
The biggest issue with the OC3 scandal was that no transparency was really provided. Ken and Manacloud never really let on where the money was going. The venue was a PoS and, even when being generous with what was provided by the TO, such as food, and then going further and looking at the cash prize, which was about that of a 200 person tournament with $10 entry fees, it was apparent that there was an enormous amount of money that went unaccounted for.
mers
Smash Ace
It is absolutely fair for TOs to make money from the venue fee. The venue fee is for whatever they want. It's not advertised as being included in the pot and payouts, so nobody expects to see that money again once they hand it over.
It is absolutely wrong for a TO to take ANY money from the pot, for ANY reason (I guess a case could be made if ALL the entrants asked the TO to do so, maybe for food or something, but that seems unlikely). Every single cent that players put in the pot is money they have the right to win back later.
Essentially, the venue fee is money that allows the TO to host the tournament. Whether that simply means covering the costs so the TO spends nothing out of pocket, or incentivising the TO to host the tournament by allowing them to make a profit, the principle still stands. Entrants should not object to what the venue fee is used for, because no matter what it is money they will never see again. If the fee is too high, exercise your right to not enter the tournament. Simple economics.
EDIT:
What Cactuar said.
It is absolutely wrong for a TO to take ANY money from the pot, for ANY reason (I guess a case could be made if ALL the entrants asked the TO to do so, maybe for food or something, but that seems unlikely). Every single cent that players put in the pot is money they have the right to win back later.
Essentially, the venue fee is money that allows the TO to host the tournament. Whether that simply means covering the costs so the TO spends nothing out of pocket, or incentivising the TO to host the tournament by allowing them to make a profit, the principle still stands. Entrants should not object to what the venue fee is used for, because no matter what it is money they will never see again. If the fee is too high, exercise your right to not enter the tournament. Simple economics.
EDIT:
What Cactuar said.
I get that a lot.
Lobos
Smash Master
Back in September a week before MLG DC I helped nova9000 who is pretty much new and his first time running a tournament. With only 6 setups about 35 entrants for singles, 10 teams, and a side event we finished a little before 9pm. Started around 1:30 and did the bracket on paper before Bionic came thru with a laptop with TIO..... Of course I did learn how to run tournaments from you and Greg
Lajin - You can't compare venue fees from 01-05 to present.....the economy plays a big part of increasing venue fees. We lost so many venues because buisnesses couldn't stay open or are charging to much to rent out the place.
Just speaking experience again, but for Apex we have every single expense laid out in a spreadsheet, and kept various forms of receipts for everything that was spent. This is just what needs to be done when dealing large amounts of money given and spent. I mean you could do this and I feel like it would be helpful for anyone running large scale tournies. Our situation was different because everything was pre-registered so there was a necessity for this type of system. But basically, nothing should go unaccounted for.
The megaphone/microphone issue can be a tough issue but if you guys plan on doing these in the future (as this is the 3rd one) maybe you can start investing in something now. Or think about pre-registration next time so you can use some of that money before the tournament for something to help out. I always said back in the w2z days that I was going to buy Alex a megaphone since he always lost his voice =P but he quit anyway hah. It's just all a part of the planning process though.
And yes @ everything Cactus said LOL.
I think it's great we're examining all this. Good for us. What I'd like to offer is this:
It seems like back in 04-06 it was a privilege to host a tournament. People had to compete with one another for "the summer spot" and they had to outperform other tournaments to establish themselves. Now, it's more like TOs are doing the community a favor by hosting, as opposed to the community doing the TO a favor by attending.
Is the difference clear? And I think that's a natural (if regrettable) evolution of the smash scene.
On a related note, I had to pay for a hotel this weekend, which is a shame. It used to be that nobody ever had to pay for housing. It was positively unheard of. It was what separated us from Halo. And I think the diminished presence of free housing for out-of-staters is symptomatic of the same problem that is lowering the quality of tournaments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One last point: I do happen to think the integrity of the smash community has deteriorated. However, the quality of the game play is stellar. I'm so constantly amazed at how steadily the metagame advances, and how hard the players work to push this game to its full potential. So we should all be very proud of ourselves for that.
It seems like back in 04-06 it was a privilege to host a tournament. People had to compete with one another for "the summer spot" and they had to outperform other tournaments to establish themselves. Now, it's more like TOs are doing the community a favor by hosting, as opposed to the community doing the TO a favor by attending.
Is the difference clear? And I think that's a natural (if regrettable) evolution of the smash scene.
On a related note, I had to pay for a hotel this weekend, which is a shame. It used to be that nobody ever had to pay for housing. It was positively unheard of. It was what separated us from Halo. And I think the diminished presence of free housing for out-of-staters is symptomatic of the same problem that is lowering the quality of tournaments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One last point: I do happen to think the integrity of the smash community has deteriorated. However, the quality of the game play is stellar. I'm so constantly amazed at how steadily the metagame advances, and how hard the players work to push this game to its full potential. So we should all be very proud of ourselves for that.
I don't know why you think i make so much money off tournaments to put me with manacloud/ken. I just want to point out that I would love to make that much, but Pound 2 was sponsored by mlg and they handled the money mostly, pound 3 I lost money, and although I did profit at Pound 4 it was not very much because the venue really deceived me and owned me with the contract.
But anyways the only other thing I can add is that it's really difficult to gauge expenses because of how long people take to register. I never know how much equipment I can afford to buy or what expenses i can afford to make because people never register until the end so it's a lot harder to get an accurate estimate.
A lot of you guys probably don't know, but I sign into some really steep **** and put myself out there for this community. This is a paragraph from my (10 page) contract with the venue. This is what would happen if for some reason *Pound* got cancelled or people didn't go:
"
CANCELLATION OPTION
Either the Hotel or Group may cancel this contract without cause upon written notice to the other party at any time prior to
the event and upon payment of an amount based on the following scale, plus applicable taxes:
January 14, 2011 (179 days or less from the start of the official event dates) $34,200.00 (80% rooms)
Contract signing to January 13, 2011 (180 days from the start of the official event dates) $29,925.00 (70% of Rooms)
Payment due as a result of this cancellation option shall be made by the canceling party to the non-canceling party at the time
this Agreement is canceled by written notice.
The Hotel and Group intend to liquidate damages in the event that either party utilizes the cancellation option set forth in this
section. Therefore, the Hotel and Group agree (a) that the above formula is a reasonable estimate of the Hotel's damage in the
event of cancellation and (b) that the liquidated damages set forth in this section do not constitute a penalty."
There are so many little legalities that go into hosting a large scale event, especially when you want to deal with better venues.
With your join date of 2009 I wouldn't expect you to understand. And please, don't tell me what the housing situation is like in NY. I've stayed in dozens of places around NY and NJ, both in hotels and in smashers' houses, and I've been doing it since before you knew how to L Cancel.
And I know housing isn't always available, that's exactly the point I was making. But it's not unavoidable, which is why I brought it up.
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
**** wife with the Callout.
Get ****ed up
Get ****ed up
Laijin
Smash Hero
Wife gettin' off.
otg
Smash Master
I've been known to host like 15+ people for ****ing Local tournies. I just couldn't do it for ROM, tho I housed people for the last two. People tend to take advantage of my kindness whenever I put it out there, so I try to keep it off the boards as much as possible, but know that there are people out there who do have the communities best interest in mind and will help anyway they can.
I just couldn't for this ROM. I probably had 20+ people talk to me for housing and I just couldn't help this time... so unfortunate.
I just couldn't for this ROM. I probably had 20+ people talk to me for housing and I just couldn't help this time... so unfortunate.
I get my 30-person locals, both singles and teams, finished before 8/9PM typically. Normally I start singles pools, or at least get most people registered, before doubles finishes (this saves a good half hour). Also typically I have about 8 setups for these. $5 venue fee that goes to the organization that lets me use the space (at current my fraternity, in the past a local pizza place).
Every MLG this year also ran ahead of schedule with only 20 setups. That includes the 250 person MLG event plus a 64 team bracket (MLG Columbus was the 250 person event, which ran EXACTLY on schedule the entire weekend, except when it came to the finals cause M2K beat everyone really fast).
Running a large tournament well comes down to the TO having balls to DQ people for being late/leaving the venue. Especially at underground tournaments where your match can be called at any time, you should not be leaving for any longer then a few minutes for the restroom or something.
Also: plank is the man.
TOs have every right to try to make a profit off their events, especially since the TO is assuming all the financial risk for putting the event on! Hopefully though the community realizes which events are good and which are bad. (this mostly applies to nationals)
Every MLG this year also ran ahead of schedule with only 20 setups. That includes the 250 person MLG event plus a 64 team bracket (MLG Columbus was the 250 person event, which ran EXACTLY on schedule the entire weekend, except when it came to the finals cause M2K beat everyone really fast).
Running a large tournament well comes down to the TO having balls to DQ people for being late/leaving the venue. Especially at underground tournaments where your match can be called at any time, you should not be leaving for any longer then a few minutes for the restroom or something.
Also: plank is the man.
TOs have every right to try to make a profit off their events, especially since the TO is assuming all the financial risk for putting the event on! Hopefully though the community realizes which events are good and which are bad. (this mostly applies to nationals)
lmao i joined in 07
and if you knew the housing situation like you say you do
you wouldnt be complaining
im pretty sure your not the only one that had to pay
i havent heard anyone else complain
so what you spent some money
you were in ny for a weekend what did you expect
You've entirely missed the point I was illustrating. Which isn't surprising, given your tenuous grip on the English language:
When the smash community had more heart, more people offered up their houses for smashers coming from a long distance. I wasn't surprised that it wasn't available, nor was I upset that I had to spend money. Still, it demonstrates a point, and is worth mentioning.