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Quest to Become the Best

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
^Yea. Realistically a good Marth should be getting something out of that scenario consistently cause he can cover anything. I'd say maybe even fox retreating to the ledge and trying to be tricky coming up from the ledge is a better idea, though that comes with its own risks. It's one of the things that makes sheik such a difficult matchup, as well, because a lot of what Marth wants to do involves trapping characters on or near ledges, but sheik is completely safe on the ledge and can retreat there at any time to kind of reset any favorable spacing scenario Marth may have achieved.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
Hmmm, maybe he is busy with tournament/practice? : ]
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
I fully support the idea that people should play one character AT LEAST until they reach the bottom rung of top level play, but I feel like that discussion is better suited for realtime conversation than forum posts.
 

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
> 1–2 months to break it in
Why not buy a used one on amazon.com for a few bucks?
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
Marth and comboing, Marth should never have to stop comboing because he has the proper hit box before the tip of his blade and plenty of moves to finish with. Example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL But thats not even all of marth's potential. He has just as effective pressuring as fox and falco its just a different kind of pressure that doesn't require top levels tech skill, just good tech skill.
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
Marth and comboing, Marth should never have to stop comboing because he has the proper hit box before the tip of his blade and plenty of moves to finish with. Example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL But thats not even all of marth's potential. He has just as effective pressuring as fox and falco its just a different kind of pressure that doesn't require top levels tech skill, just good tech skill.
what the heck is this? lol
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
I fully support the idea that people should play one character AT LEAST until they reach the bottom rung of top level play, but I feel like that discussion is better suited for realtime conversation than forum posts.
I personally disagree. I feel the game has a lot of aspects that you really only notice/gain from playing certain characters. I learned a lot of grab-game just from playing marth often, my reads seemed to improve from falcon, techskill from fox, spacing/more creativity needed from lower tiers etc. i don't feel i would've improved that well on these things had i just stuck with falco the whole time. my techskill would probably be precise as hell, but i don't feel that would make up for the other stuff. just my opinion.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
This is a problem to me actually. You are learning one or two things from every character, which is incredible shallow considering that every character can be played in a crazy number of different ways.

I played Marth for nearly 3 years before picking up any other character, even for friendlies. You know what I learned from that? I learned a lot about spacing. And then when I kept playing him, I learned a ton about grab game. After I learned to grab, I learned what to do after grab. I learned how to read techs because I was constantly experimenting from fthrow/dthrow/bthrow tech chases. After that, I learned how to properly pressure on shield, and the important of using unorthodox timings (which are now pretty commonly used) when descending on someone's shield to give myself a frame gap. This led me to having much greater technical ability because I was constantly decreasing the number of wasted frames I had between actions.

The list can easily go on here, but the point is this: I pushed myself so far forward with one character that I learned a lot of very subtle/advanced stuff about him most people wouldn't which affects my play style to this day. When I finally applied my core skills to other characters, the transition to application on those characters was very quick and it gave me a playstyle that can be considered unique. Playing a variety of characters only slows you down because you spend time adjusting to the playstyle of each of those characters, which is a whole different factor to consider than using certain characters to increase only one facet of your core. You are only learning the basics of a bunch of characters rather than obtaining advanced knowledge of any of them.

That being said, different characters will obviously give you greater results for each of your core facets. The most noticeable thing about Mango's early stages was his crazy emphasis on spacing, which eventually applied to his other characters being untouchable due to his habit to maintain very safe methods of pressure and baiting. Had he played so many characters earlier on, he probably wouldn't have gotten that far into that specific of the advanced Jigglypuff game.

Honestly, one of the biggest things I regret is switching to Fox before I really got into learning Marth's combo game. I played my Fox like I played my Marth, which meant I had a crazy emphasis on getting first hits and abusing my reaction speed, but no focus at all when it came to combos because all I really did with Marth was wait for a hit confirm on a fair or some other quick move, and then fsmash them.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
Danke ;)

My superpower is analysis and I'm pretty good at translating my thoughts into something others can understand.


Now if I could only get someone to change my title to Smash Scientist or something. I'll always just be Smash Awesome otherwise, but then again... maybe that is the most appropriate title. lolol
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Danke ;)

My superpower is analysis and I'm pretty good at translating my thoughts into something others can understand.


Now if I could only get someone to change my title to Smash Scientist or something. I'll always just be Smash Awesome otherwise, but then again... maybe that is the most appropriate title. lolol
I need some more warrior training please! =D
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
Lol Kage. If the definition of "warrior training" is you infinitely $1 mming like 10 of my characters with your Ganon until you learn the matchups better, then I accept.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
This is a problem to me actually. You are learning one or two things from every character, which is incredible shallow considering that every character can be played in a crazy number of different ways.

I played Marth for nearly 3 years before picking up any other character, even for friendlies. You know what I learned from that? I learned a lot about spacing. And then when I kept playing him, I learned a ton about grab game. After I learned to grab, I learned what to do after grab. I learned how to read techs because I was constantly experimenting from fthrow/dthrow/bthrow tech chases. After that, I learned how to properly pressure on shield, and the important of using unorthodox timings (which are now pretty commonly used) when descending on someone's shield to give myself a frame gap. This led me to having much greater technical ability because I was constantly decreasing the number of wasted frames I had between actions.

The list can easily go on here, but the point is this: I pushed myself so far forward with one character that I learned a lot of very subtle/advanced stuff about him most people wouldn't which affects my play style to this day. When I finally applied my core skills to other characters, the transition to application on those characters was very quick and it gave me a playstyle that can be considered unique. Playing a variety of characters only slows you down because you spend time adjusting to the playstyle of each of those characters, which is a whole different factor to consider than using certain characters to increase only one facet of your core. You are only learning the basics of a bunch of characters rather than obtaining advanced knowledge of any of them.

That being said, different characters will obviously give you greater results for each of your core facets. The most noticeable thing about Mango's early stages was his crazy emphasis on spacing, which eventually applied to his other characters being untouchable due to his habit to maintain very safe methods of pressure and baiting. Had he played so many characters earlier on, he probably wouldn't have gotten that far into that specific of the advanced Jigglypuff game.

Honestly, one of the biggest things I regret is switching to Fox before I really got into learning Marth's combo game. I played my Fox like I played my Marth, which meant I had a crazy emphasis on getting first hits and abusing my reaction speed, but no focus at all when it came to combos because all I really did with Marth was wait for a hit confirm on a fair or some other quick move, and then fsmash them.
i wasn't trying to imply that i learned those things alone from each of those characters, those were just some of the more basic, noteable things i learned from them.

I've always felt that mango initially playing jigglypuff and sticking with him from the beginning was a huge factor in where he is in melee today, BUT what i meant in this discussion was referring to playing those characters outside of tournament, obviously mango didn't play only puff from the beginning.

Your first paragraph is very common in advancing in melee. you learn one thing, advance the next, on and on, and obviously your improving on the things that matter, for marth. But i feel that when you play a character that doesn't noticeably do well on certain aspects of the game, it doesn't 'lodge' well when it comes to learning. [IE falcos grab]

That's just me though. I've just personally noticed playing all of the top tier a lot since the beginning has really made my playstyle more versatile. knowing more weight differences/combos/defense-patterns from the character i use, learning tiny aspects that you may not notice with your main, then applying all the things you may not have thought were so good before.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
I approve Cactuar. You have a ridiculous ability to put everything I can barely think about into words lol.
idk, if you can put it into words and write well, I would think he understands the subject matter quite a bit more.
 

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
good stuff.
I agree. I used to main ganon way back when, so I know how to fight noobs who just spam aerials and such. Of course this also applies to higher levels of play, I only wish I had more opportunities to play frequently and thus experiment more. Also, playing other characters is just plain fun, too.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
You thinking Falco's grab game is not significant really works against you here. Falco players really have to put in the time to understand and be able to follow from his grab consistently and in an effective way.

This is pretty much what I mean. At the level you are thinking of, people really can't make use of Falco's grabs because honestly, its hard. The higher level your play is with Falco, the better you are at taking advantage of it. Peepee in this example grabs Jigglypuff all over the place and puts in work with it. He has an advanced understanding of a basic part of the game because of it. Playing a ton of characters won't get you that.


This really is opinion based. I'm just sharing what helped me advance very very quickly in the ranks of smashers. People definitely should, at some point, play with other characters, but if you want to focus on getting better, advance one character. You'll learn a lot more about the basics than playing a bunch of different characters all the time.

Having a great deal of character specific knowledge vs having an advanced understanding of the basic mechanics of the game really. I think our disagreement is that you think you learn more about the basics by playing a lot of characters and I think you don't.

I was considering making rpg comparisons, but that's lame.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
You thinking Falco's grab game is not significant really works against you here. Falco players really have to put in the time to understand and be able to follow from his grab consistently and in an effective way.
no I don't think falco's grab game is not significant, that's why i said it. Early on, most falco players don't understand the point of grabbing given falcos grab just comes off as crappy, so they don't use it too often.

yes playing falco consistently will help improve his grab game specifically, BUT , I just felt that using a grab at it's full potential, like with marth for example, really brings out to people WHY a grab is so useful in the first place.

i agree though that this is really opinion based. Some could learn better one way visa versa.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
So, you think someone going from Marth to Falco is going to use Falco's grab, rather than be frustrated with how much more difficult it is to get a grab as well as combo out of it and give up on the move? I really think variety players at lower levels tend to ignore Falco's grab game because they only really get that basic understanding of grabs, which is essentially the opposite of your argument. I'm an ex-Marth main and I can tell you my Falco rarely used grabs until I spent a significant amount of time playing him.

I think switching characters so much leads to playing in a way that relies on the character strengths, not your overall strength as a player, and doesn't allow you to gain the depth with one character that you would need higher up. You may think this is a good thing, but when you run into a player who has mained a character and played only that character while you have been playing all these others, he will know how to counter your strengths and you will lack the depth to keep up. You are essentially using your strengths to hide your weaknesses rather than developing your weaknesses into strengths.


I'm going to use Azen here because I feel like he was the epitome of what you are arguing for. Keep in mind problem with this is that Azen is exceptionally gifted and his natural ability was far better than most.

Azen's playstyle was incredibly straightforward. He pretty much took playing "by the book" to the peak of the metagame during his time. He probably had the most variety out of any player back then. But if you look at his style, it was heavily reliant on spamming 2-3 moves/strats of any character he would play.

Now M2K, during earlier parts of his smash life, spent his time honing a character for specific reasons. His Marth was pretty much crafted around his desire to dominate a certain someone in Marth dittos. He learned that character in and out for purely that.

I remember talking to M2K about him vs Azen after their like 7th meeting in random EC tournaments and something that really struck me was M2K saying "Azen always makes the optimal choice for any situation. I always beat him because I just think about what I would do, and then counter that."

Just food for thought.

This post lacked a lot of structure I usually give to my theorycraft posts, but I'm tired lol.


Note: Not arguing that people shouldn't eventually pick up a character or two to use in friendlies, but really, you should be spending most of your time developing one main. It is much easier to apply base skill to new characters than it is to raise base skill with a bunch of worse characters.
 

Ministry

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
616
Location
Europe
I know this is probably very common knowledge but I THINK I just figured out my favorite way to tech chase spacies as Sheik.

Dthrow walk forwards slowly. Walk forwards is important for a few reasons. First, you're closing the distance between Sheik and their tech away option, which if you just stand in place is impossible to get to if they tech away, cuz it's so far. Their tech behind option puts them pretty much right behind Sheik, so if you walk forwards you're not losing much distance at all, and can still grab them with one dash grab.

If they tech in place, I do a really fast DD grab. Walking forwards puts Sheik right on top of the spacies body, so if they tech in place they might be able to Shine before I can grab. But, by DD grabbing as soon as I see them tech in place, I can avoid the shine.

If they don't tech at all, just jab because you can jab out of a walk.

Then at higher percents, just dash attack and if they DI away, tech chase with another dash attack LOL

Seriously, Sheik is ********.
you have the right idea, but wrong execution. Yes you need to walk forward, but you dont need to walk far enough to the point where you get shined, You can walk to a certain distance to where your grab will connect and even if they shine they wont hit you. Aside from that they shouldnt even have time to shine if they tech in place, since that is the first option you should be reacting to since it is spacies quickest option (so most good players will use it more often)

Another thing you mentioned is you like to DD grab. That itself works, but is un-needed. You are wasting frames when you could just sit there and react. You are "preocupying" yourself with moves instead of waiting. It is similar to spamming Sh FAir on a dash dancing fox hoping they will run into it. Sheik is so powerfull when she waits , Alot of time it is more intimidating then doing a move.

*spacies sheilding, just wait infront of them and let there sheilds die down. Your jab/tilt.fair will be more effective on a weekend sheild and you will have a better chance to sheild stab on a low sheild. They have to make the first move, and fox and falco dont have good options OOS that sheik cant react to.

Summary: be more reactive and faster w ith your tech chasing, and dont use un needed inputs.
 

P.C. Jona

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,175
^

fox upsmash oos

falco wavedash back oos or jump on to platform

just saying

no char can cover every option

some can cover alot of them

but not all
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
You are only learning the basics of a bunch of characters rather than obtaining advanced knowledge of any of them.
when you run into a player who has mained a character and played only that character while you have been playing all these others, he will know how to counter your strengths and you will lack the depth to keep up. You are essentially using your strengths to hide your weaknesses rather than developing your weaknesses into strengths.
Quoted for emphasis. Really on point imo.
 

Ministry

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
616
Location
Europe
fox is going to upsmash OOS when sheik is standing infront waiting?

ok sure, there goes his stock.

i agree though falco has better options then fox
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
That's so beyond theory smash... that's just like, who gets a read on who. Hardly something you can debate.

I wonder what's been happening with jesiah...hyperbolic time chamber?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I remember talking to M2K about him vs Azen after their like 7th meeting in random EC tournaments and something that really struck me was M2K saying "Azen always makes the optimal choice for any situation. I always beat him because I just think about what I would do, and then counter that."
This, very much. This is why I was able to beat Azen in multiple sets in Marth vs Zelda alone. Smash is very much about what you can and can't do. Even if you only have one option, so long as your opponent doesn't have any, you will come out ahead. Because of this, it's perfectly fine (and in many cases recommended) to simply stick to one character until the point of mastery and to play that character in a fairly linear manner. It's more obvious with low tiers just on the merit that they have fewer options, but it works with high tiers too, where you can simply pick better options to work with.

I know from experience that a player can never play at 100%. People are imperfect. Bad days happen. Smash is extremely demanding on your mental ability to stay focused, call reads, follow narrow DIs, and to never fall for anything. It's amazing how many players give up a lead simply by overextending and giving their opponent an opportunity to make a comeback. The brilliant thing about smash is that you can choose to simply stay ahead once you get a lead. However, smash is also extremely technical, so much so that even the best technical players can never truly autopilot and expect to perform well. Tournaments wear you down, playing 14+ hours at a time. It's extremely important to stay in your mental game and not to become mentally exhausted, even if you're playing well on a technical level.

I spent a lot of my time with melee in 2005, bumping into Jason often and teaching him Fox little by little both in person and on AIM. I routinely encouraged him to stay away from his technical game. As technical as Jason is famous for, or as "robotic" his style is on a superficial level, it's really quite the opposite in that he learned to never fatigue himself with unnecessary tech and never to give up a lead. More importantly, I tried to teach Jason to adopt a linear style that gives leeway for bad days and allows the player to cover weaknesses.

At some point, the technical aspect of your game isn't going to work anymore. Your tech isn't perfect, no matter how bad you want it to be. What then? You drop out of the tournament? You change character? The cornerstone of your gameplay should ALWAYS be thinking, seeking, adapting, watching for patterns, keeping yourself calm, holding a lead, applying pressure when you're at an advantageous position, and maintaining good position yourself without overextending or putting yourself at unnecessary risk. As Azen puts it, "Don't jump into the ****." As Isai puts it, "Don't get hit." As I put it, "Don't do anything stupid." Your technical game should be something that enhances your gameplay and makes your decisions more effective after your best judgment has been made such that your strategy becomes more and more likely to yield victory. As soon as your technical ability becomes the focus of your gameplay, your performance will be sloppy and your ability to learn will be dampened, despite not looking sloppy at all!

I really feel that the new age style of Fox called, "Hey look at my nair" is a big reason behind that character's poor tournament performance, but that probably deserves to be debated elsewhere.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Still feeling kinda demotivated from the *** ****** Niko gave me, but I will make a post soon...

And god...i'm sick of girls dude LOL a girlfriend is the last thing that happened to me good posts by tuar and stuff...

also mods, again, if you want to move this to userblogs feel free
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,414
Location
College Park, MD
From watching the sets between you and Niko, all I can really say is that I think you should work on thinking outside the box more. Hopefully I don't need to clarify what I mean by that.
 
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