otg
Smash Master
Credit goes to PC Jona
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Quest to Become the Best
- Thread starter JesiahTEG
- Start date
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Whoa, OTG...I get it, you're not my biggest fan haha. Relax dude, I tried to give Niko as much credit in that post as possible.
When I'm writing these posts guys, I try to ignore as much possible that relates to me specifically, or anything related to me PERSONALLY...It's hard to explain.
This blog is supposed to be just a normal smasher...could be anyone from anywhere around the world...trying to become the best, and documenting the journey there. I'm obsessed enough to dedicate pretty much all of my time to Melee, so I figured I'd be the one to write it all out in this blog.
That being said, when I think to myself, "If Mango or PP or M2K wrote a blog from the time they were mediocre to the time they were pros, what would I like to see in there?"
One of the main answers I come up with is their challenges. That's the most important to me, is what the players went through to get to where they were...what obstacles they overcame.
So you say I'm "Johning" about being inconsistent. That's false. Niko's **** as **** and I completely deserved to lose. Whether I played horribly, perfectly, whether I had **** going on in my life...whatever the reasons may be, a loss is a loss. I understood that a long time ago.
But I have to write about what I feel are my challenges, so that once I get past them, people with the same problems can read back and figure out how I dealt with mine.
Not to mention dude, I wrote that post trying to give as much credit to Niko as possible, so I can actually get TFS some recognition. I know there's a decent amount of people who read this thread so I know they'd see what I wrote about him.
Actually OTG, you've inspired me to write a post about recognition and the community in general. Nice dude, I now have something to write about while waiting for my christmas pizza to cook
When I'm writing these posts guys, I try to ignore as much possible that relates to me specifically, or anything related to me PERSONALLY...It's hard to explain.
This blog is supposed to be just a normal smasher...could be anyone from anywhere around the world...trying to become the best, and documenting the journey there. I'm obsessed enough to dedicate pretty much all of my time to Melee, so I figured I'd be the one to write it all out in this blog.
That being said, when I think to myself, "If Mango or PP or M2K wrote a blog from the time they were mediocre to the time they were pros, what would I like to see in there?"
One of the main answers I come up with is their challenges. That's the most important to me, is what the players went through to get to where they were...what obstacles they overcame.
So you say I'm "Johning" about being inconsistent. That's false. Niko's **** as **** and I completely deserved to lose. Whether I played horribly, perfectly, whether I had **** going on in my life...whatever the reasons may be, a loss is a loss. I understood that a long time ago.
But I have to write about what I feel are my challenges, so that once I get past them, people with the same problems can read back and figure out how I dealt with mine.
Not to mention dude, I wrote that post trying to give as much credit to Niko as possible, so I can actually get TFS some recognition. I know there's a decent amount of people who read this thread so I know they'd see what I wrote about him.
Actually OTG, you've inspired me to write a post about recognition and the community in general. Nice dude, I now have something to write about while waiting for my christmas pizza to cook
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Jona is known to bring out the best in people.
He is also known to bring out the ***** in people.
He is also known to bring out the ***** in people.
OTG: improving the smash community one gape at a time
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
What? Now cutting people wide open is his thing?
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya all you need to do is realize your weaknesses and correct them. If you have close to no weaknesses, what can the opponent exploit anyway? =P The amount of times I've lost with Ganon to become a great Ganon is unbelievable now that I think about it. It's really not about being consistent/inconsistent.. sure it happens but I believe it happens because your opponent is equal/stronger than you. You have a degree of pressure that happens during a tournament match and with that pressure too many unforeseen things happen.. like miss a wavedash, miss spacing, roll on pressure.. etc. etc. I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. And also when you play it's really weird what happens, it's like your mind is completely in another world.. and you think things that are actually not exactly real. Like you think you failed but in reality you didn't fail all that much, it's just the opponent made you feel that way and used that to his own advantage. The psychological aspect of smash is amazing or even maybe in all fighting games in general.
So ya pretty much.. Not sure if it's completely true but that's how I feel anyway when I play. I try to understand the pressure that happens during a match, and I try to shift it to my advantage.
So ya pretty much.. Not sure if it's completely true but that's how I feel anyway when I play. I try to understand the pressure that happens during a match, and I try to shift it to my advantage.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Today was really fun. I'm glad I could come over.
There were a bunch of things i noticed i had problems with, and I'd really like your input on how I could work on them.
1) DI - you 0-death'd me tons of times and so did some other people, though not nearly as frequently.
2) Comboing against good DI, specifically against marth but other characters as well.
3) Recovering - I think Falco just sucks at it, but I feel like it could've been a little better.
4) Shield Pressure - This was a huge one. I would not know what to do and just fsmash randomly into someones shield and get *****.
Other things obviously need work too, but those 4 were the big ones i noticed. I also feel like I had a lot of trouble gaining momentum back, but thats slightly more intangible and not something I feel like I should probably work on just yet. Especially not at home. So if you could help me with anything, especially those and maybe comment on my play in general that would be great. Nothing is too harsh
I also left $20 in your room, so now you owe me 10.
There were a bunch of things i noticed i had problems with, and I'd really like your input on how I could work on them.
1) DI - you 0-death'd me tons of times and so did some other people, though not nearly as frequently.
2) Comboing against good DI, specifically against marth but other characters as well.
3) Recovering - I think Falco just sucks at it, but I feel like it could've been a little better.
4) Shield Pressure - This was a huge one. I would not know what to do and just fsmash randomly into someones shield and get *****.
Other things obviously need work too, but those 4 were the big ones i noticed. I also feel like I had a lot of trouble gaining momentum back, but thats slightly more intangible and not something I feel like I should probably work on just yet. Especially not at home. So if you could help me with anything, especially those and maybe comment on my play in general that would be great. Nothing is too harsh
I also left $20 in your room, so now you owe me 10.
Jessiah, you better watch out. Riddle's on the path to greatness! He might pass by you.
I could write about my obstacles and stuff, but I would feel pretty conceited writing about it, even though I've kinda wanted to do that for a while anyway lol. Maybe I should wait though....lol I'm so indecisive. Maybe it's past time for that anyway?
Anyway, check your messages on FB or have Steffon call me or something when you see this Jesiah lol.
Anyway, check your messages on FB or have Steffon call me or something when you see this Jesiah lol.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
There's so many.. it will take long to write a whole story of obstacles you had to overcome to become a legendary player lol.
joeplicate
Smash Master
peepee
i would be extremely interested in hearing about anything you took the time to write up
your tale would be like if jesse put in a password to skip to the final level of melee greatness and completed this blog lmao
i would be extremely interested in hearing about anything you took the time to write up
your tale would be like if jesse put in a password to skip to the final level of melee greatness and completed this blog lmao
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Passwords are always nice to know.
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
Your brain adapts to the controller IN BETWEEN sessions, care for overtraining :D
~Twitch~
Smash Master
.............Going to NC and staying with PeePee for 3-4 days. Maybe I can convince him 5
I met him at ROM2 and Tuar, him and I stayed up playing all night pretty much. We became friends and we share ideas a lot. It's awesome having a friend who's at the top of the metagame right now, especially when I'm trying so hard to get there haha.
I'll get a ton of Falco practice, his Fox and Falcon and Marth are all **** too though, so I'll have a lot of diversity to work with. In addition, I also play the top few characters so I'm really excited for both of us to play and test random things we want to, and just figure out even more about the game and make my Marth amazing so I feel confident using him in tournament.
I'm planning the trip for mid-late January. I'm having to work my *** off at work to pay for it and whatnot, but I don't care haha.
it's not that awesome training with kevin for 3 1/2 years.
shut up alex LOL. <3 I'm still gonna try to make you **** don't worry. When you actually tried vs my non-Falco characters you were doing good so don't be silly. =p It pays off.
And I may write something up eventually. It'll take a while to get my thoughts organized though, and I'll have forgotten a lot, so if I do write somethin then you guys will have to bare with me. It's good to get some feedback on that idea. =)
And I may write something up eventually. It'll take a while to get my thoughts organized though, and I'll have forgotten a lot, so if I do write somethin then you guys will have to bare with me. It's good to get some feedback on that idea. =)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I like how people have to compare themselves vs PP's non-Falco characters in order to be able to compare themselves to PP period. Lol.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
yo, PP's non-Falco characters are so ****, they can beat most of the world lol
~Twitch~
Smash Master
be that as it may...
kevin's falcon is dang awful.
kevin's falcon is dang awful.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I got 3 stocked repeatedly by Kevin's various characters.. this is not over! lol =P
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
shuddup Alex, Kevin's Falcon is scary lol
Foy
Smash Champion
Jesse if you haven't done so, you need to call Peepee. You're a big boy, and I'm done reminding you.
I had to keep calling him but I finally got that boy lol.
I dunno if Jesiah wants me to spill when this is happening but I'm hyped either way.
I dunno if Jesiah wants me to spill when this is happening but I'm hyped either way.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Ok first off, Riddle I never got that 20 dollars dude...why would you just leave it in my room?
Second of all, let me touch on inconsistency.
I am not using inconsistency as a john. I have no johns. I realized a while ago that if I want to be a top player, johns will only hold me back. That being said, it would be dumb for me to john.
Consistency is a skill that can be worked towards. I am extremely interested in developing consistency and I'm excited to figure it out so that I can write about it. I haven't seen any articles explaining consistency, and I think it's a topic that is very unexplored in the Smash community.
I don't want to get too into it because I am not able to demonstrate it yet, but I've studied a lot of top athletes in other sports and consistency is all about state. How you feel. It's a pretty deep topic. Complete relaxation, having being a good player a part of your identity, instead of something you do. Being not doing.
If you're thinking consciously about playing "consistently" and technically sound in matches, then you're not relaxed and you're likely to mess up...But, what if you could subconsciously do everything perfectly in a match? Well we can't control our subconscious so that's impossible...But, we can setup our subconscious beforehand.
How do we do that? Be knowing and being a good player, instead of being a player who does well, if that makes sense. Being a good player has to be a part of your identity. It's just who you are, without a second thought.
The most obvious way to achieve that is by winning a lot. It's a simple psychology concept called "reference experiences." The more something happens in your life, the more it reinforces your identity.
Think of parts of your identity as a table. For this example, let's say we're using getting girls as a part of your identity, so that's the table and it has 4 legs. You're decent with girls, but you're nothing out of the ordinary. You go out to the clubs and pull a girl back to your place.
Another leg is added to the table, reinforcing it. That's a slight addition to your identity making it stronger. Next time you go out, you'll be more confident.
At work, you start to flirt more as a result, and you hook up with an employee or two. Two more legs are added to the table, and now you're feeling even more confident.
Eventually you have so many legs on your table, you don't even think about getting girls anymore. You just walk through your life that way. It's not something you do anymore, it's just part of who you are. Certain social situations you've experienced many times now, like introducing yourself to a girl. It's just normal now.
Another thing too. The more legs you have supporting your table, the more unshakeable you are.
If you don't get a girl or you get blown out or rejected, it doesn't make you lose legs, and it doesn't destroy your confidence or make you feel demotivated. You have so many legs and you pull so many girls, it doesn't shake you at all.
I believe that's the reason why when Mango lost to Kage at ROM2, he was easily able to go and win Pound.
He's experienced winning so much, one loss isn't going to affect him. Winning in Smash is who he is. Losing once isn't going to affect that.
Now for me, I've only experienced moderate success at the intermediate level of Smash. Losing to Niko ****ed me up because I haven't been able to win at that level consistently, so it kinda messed with my reality.
Ok, well I guess I did get into it more than I thought. This same concept also applies to other sports and pretty much everything in your life.
The kids who grew up with their parents telling them they're so good looking all the time, and that girls will love them when they're older...Those are reference experiences and at such a young impressionable age, that leads them to be able to just go and talk to girls like it's nothing. Even if they're not attractive, it's part of their reality and they walk up confident and they come off like it's just something they do, so it doesn't creep the girls out.
My point is, my theory at this point, based on what i've studied so far, is that the more you win, the more it becomes a part of your identity, the less you consciously think about playing technically well, the more consistent you are.
What I haven't figured out yet, is how to develop consistency without reference experiences. Mango did it and so did other players who rose to the top quickly. How do I do it?
Anyways, the next post will be about what I've been working on and such.
Second of all, let me touch on inconsistency.
I am not using inconsistency as a john. I have no johns. I realized a while ago that if I want to be a top player, johns will only hold me back. That being said, it would be dumb for me to john.
Consistency is a skill that can be worked towards. I am extremely interested in developing consistency and I'm excited to figure it out so that I can write about it. I haven't seen any articles explaining consistency, and I think it's a topic that is very unexplored in the Smash community.
I don't want to get too into it because I am not able to demonstrate it yet, but I've studied a lot of top athletes in other sports and consistency is all about state. How you feel. It's a pretty deep topic. Complete relaxation, having being a good player a part of your identity, instead of something you do. Being not doing.
If you're thinking consciously about playing "consistently" and technically sound in matches, then you're not relaxed and you're likely to mess up...But, what if you could subconsciously do everything perfectly in a match? Well we can't control our subconscious so that's impossible...But, we can setup our subconscious beforehand.
How do we do that? Be knowing and being a good player, instead of being a player who does well, if that makes sense. Being a good player has to be a part of your identity. It's just who you are, without a second thought.
The most obvious way to achieve that is by winning a lot. It's a simple psychology concept called "reference experiences." The more something happens in your life, the more it reinforces your identity.
Think of parts of your identity as a table. For this example, let's say we're using getting girls as a part of your identity, so that's the table and it has 4 legs. You're decent with girls, but you're nothing out of the ordinary. You go out to the clubs and pull a girl back to your place.
Another leg is added to the table, reinforcing it. That's a slight addition to your identity making it stronger. Next time you go out, you'll be more confident.
At work, you start to flirt more as a result, and you hook up with an employee or two. Two more legs are added to the table, and now you're feeling even more confident.
Eventually you have so many legs on your table, you don't even think about getting girls anymore. You just walk through your life that way. It's not something you do anymore, it's just part of who you are. Certain social situations you've experienced many times now, like introducing yourself to a girl. It's just normal now.
Another thing too. The more legs you have supporting your table, the more unshakeable you are.
If you don't get a girl or you get blown out or rejected, it doesn't make you lose legs, and it doesn't destroy your confidence or make you feel demotivated. You have so many legs and you pull so many girls, it doesn't shake you at all.
I believe that's the reason why when Mango lost to Kage at ROM2, he was easily able to go and win Pound.
He's experienced winning so much, one loss isn't going to affect him. Winning in Smash is who he is. Losing once isn't going to affect that.
Now for me, I've only experienced moderate success at the intermediate level of Smash. Losing to Niko ****ed me up because I haven't been able to win at that level consistently, so it kinda messed with my reality.
Ok, well I guess I did get into it more than I thought. This same concept also applies to other sports and pretty much everything in your life.
The kids who grew up with their parents telling them they're so good looking all the time, and that girls will love them when they're older...Those are reference experiences and at such a young impressionable age, that leads them to be able to just go and talk to girls like it's nothing. Even if they're not attractive, it's part of their reality and they walk up confident and they come off like it's just something they do, so it doesn't creep the girls out.
My point is, my theory at this point, based on what i've studied so far, is that the more you win, the more it becomes a part of your identity, the less you consciously think about playing technically well, the more consistent you are.
What I haven't figured out yet, is how to develop consistency without reference experiences. Mango did it and so did other players who rose to the top quickly. How do I do it?
Anyways, the next post will be about what I've been working on and such.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
So what have I been working on? I've been in a bit of a rut, conveniently beginning with my tournament in Troy, specifically technically.
I haven't been working my *** off to improve. I haven't been identifying my problems and trying to fix them. Why?
The way I go through my life, I'm constantly analyzing everything. I'm figuring out different strategies to get ahead in life, whether it's socially, at work, at home, whatever...I'm never really just "relaxing." I'm always trying to solve random problems and look at things from different perspectives.
When I play Smash now, it's an escape...Not an escape, because that makes it seem like I don't enjoy my life, when really I love my life to death. It's a way to relax. It's ironic because this whole analyzing mindset came from Smash, and now I've been using Smash as a way to relax haha.
I've been playing a lot of Falco. I'm really good at Falco dittos and Falco vs Fox and Falcon. Against Marth and to an extent Sheik though, I hate playing those matchups. I try to avoid them because I'm never going to play them in tournament anyways, but I play them anyways just to get new perspectives I suppose.
I had a wake up call though, and through a lot of thought and via Cactuar's posting, I've decided to focus exclusively on Marth. I need to stop being scared to play him in tournament, and he's already by far my most developed character.
Niko really showed me that I was inexperienced in a lot of higher level situations in the Marth vs Sheik matchup. I'm really motivated to develop my Marth and play him exclusively in tournament. The only exception MIGHT be Falcon, because I'm randomly pretty good at Fox vs Falcon and the matchup's way easier. (Not really hard for Marth at all I don't feel, but Fox is just that much easier)
I've been playing Marth without grabs, mainly because I feel very limited using Marth sometimes, and Swiftbass really ***** me for it. My main strat is DD grab and I'm not really sure what to do other than that. It's something I've struggled with for a while, and since the people I play with mainly aren't at a ridiculously high level, I have a problem overcoming this obstacle because I can normally just DD grab to death, so I switch characters and try to improve my others.
So, playing without grabs. At first it was really hard, because I wasn't really sure exactly what to do besides Zone. I got much better at it though. I've been doing a lot of very controlled shorthopping when my opponent is in range. Say the situation is Fox vs Marth, I'm Marth.
My opponent is close, DD'ing. I do a shorthop forwards to approach. This was something I sucked at before. I had a one dimensional mindset a few months ago, and I'd just aim for where they were and jump and Fair them. Dumb.
Now, I jump forwards and chase them as they DD away. I don't swing with my fair immediately. I keep my eye on them as I'm jumping towards them.
A lot of the times, they will try and DD grab, and it's instinctive, not conscious. So a lot of the times, this is beat by a super delayed fair, as it catches them when they try to come in for the grab, after DD'ing way. They expect the fair earlier, and their instinct makes them dash in at that exact moment they think they fair would have missed. Delaying it hits them.
My training partner Vicious has thankfully stopped falling for it so much. So, now he switches his DD'ing to conscious DD'ing. (Which is way better) So, I jump in and he doesn't fall for the delayed fair. Now he dash dances that fair and grabs me. So, I waveland away now.
This is an amazing chasing strategy vs dash dancing that I want to perfect. Chase them with a SH, and then REACT to what they do. If I see them DD trying to punish an early fair, swing with Fair. If I see them wait for it, Waveland backwards and punish their attempt at grabbing the late fair.
My question I have is, will I have enough reaction time to pull this off? I have to have enough reaction time in two different situations in this strategy: One, if I see them trying to punish my initial fair, and two, if they don't fall for it and I see them try to punish the second one. By initial fair I mean, them thinking I am going to fair earlier than I will.
After I master that, I'm going to see if mixing in Side B with my shorthop will do anything. Kind of unorthodox but it's worth experimenting with.
That's just one strat I'm working on. Another is getting close and WD'ing backwards, mixed in with DD'ing. Pretty basic. Get close and threaten, bait them into attacking, and punish. The only difference is I only punished with DD grab before, or mainly. Wavedashing into Fsmash or Side B are alternatives. Generally not effective, but I'm playing without grabs so it's necessary. I wonder if WD back to Utilt would work? Must test.
Retreating Fair works well too, as it's very hard to punish. Retreating Nair works well for stuffing approaches.
If they don't fall the for the bait, I feel when they see me WD back or Fair and I whiff, it conveys that I'm baiting them and trying to punish. So, when I think they will least expect it, I approach with Dtilt or Dash attack. The problem I experience with this is, if they DO decide to approach and it happens to be at the time I approach, Fox's nair generally beats both of those moves. It sucks. Gotta figure out what to do about that...
The BIGGEST problem is punishing attacks. A lot of times I move out of the way instinctively, by dash dancing. I realized that DD'ing on reaction is just a way to move out of the way of an attack, a quick little reaction to keep spacing. I managed to stop grabbing on instinct, but i haven't stopped DD'ing on reaction which is actually good because moving out of the way last minute is better than shielding most of the time.
THE PROBLEM though, lies in the fact that I dd out of the way but I don't punish. I can't grab so I'm like uhhhhh...what now?
I sometimes do DD dolphin slash, but that's only if i've dd'd far enough away and they're at high percents. If I only slightly moved out of the way, then i'll be so close to them the dolphin slash won't sweetspot, so they'll just recover before me usually. If they're at low percents they may not even get knocked down.
Dash Dance side B is kind of good. It is good, but it's easy to CC or get out of. Steffon just CC's it until I'm close enough then jabs me into whatever, or Dtilts me.
It was super annoying playing without grabs at first, but now it's fun. I just hope I can integrate them back in even better than before. If anything, I'll use them more appropriately now instead of making them a main strategy.
I haven't been working my *** off to improve. I haven't been identifying my problems and trying to fix them. Why?
The way I go through my life, I'm constantly analyzing everything. I'm figuring out different strategies to get ahead in life, whether it's socially, at work, at home, whatever...I'm never really just "relaxing." I'm always trying to solve random problems and look at things from different perspectives.
When I play Smash now, it's an escape...Not an escape, because that makes it seem like I don't enjoy my life, when really I love my life to death. It's a way to relax. It's ironic because this whole analyzing mindset came from Smash, and now I've been using Smash as a way to relax haha.
I've been playing a lot of Falco. I'm really good at Falco dittos and Falco vs Fox and Falcon. Against Marth and to an extent Sheik though, I hate playing those matchups. I try to avoid them because I'm never going to play them in tournament anyways, but I play them anyways just to get new perspectives I suppose.
I had a wake up call though, and through a lot of thought and via Cactuar's posting, I've decided to focus exclusively on Marth. I need to stop being scared to play him in tournament, and he's already by far my most developed character.
Niko really showed me that I was inexperienced in a lot of higher level situations in the Marth vs Sheik matchup. I'm really motivated to develop my Marth and play him exclusively in tournament. The only exception MIGHT be Falcon, because I'm randomly pretty good at Fox vs Falcon and the matchup's way easier. (Not really hard for Marth at all I don't feel, but Fox is just that much easier)
I've been playing Marth without grabs, mainly because I feel very limited using Marth sometimes, and Swiftbass really ***** me for it. My main strat is DD grab and I'm not really sure what to do other than that. It's something I've struggled with for a while, and since the people I play with mainly aren't at a ridiculously high level, I have a problem overcoming this obstacle because I can normally just DD grab to death, so I switch characters and try to improve my others.
So, playing without grabs. At first it was really hard, because I wasn't really sure exactly what to do besides Zone. I got much better at it though. I've been doing a lot of very controlled shorthopping when my opponent is in range. Say the situation is Fox vs Marth, I'm Marth.
My opponent is close, DD'ing. I do a shorthop forwards to approach. This was something I sucked at before. I had a one dimensional mindset a few months ago, and I'd just aim for where they were and jump and Fair them. Dumb.
Now, I jump forwards and chase them as they DD away. I don't swing with my fair immediately. I keep my eye on them as I'm jumping towards them.
A lot of the times, they will try and DD grab, and it's instinctive, not conscious. So a lot of the times, this is beat by a super delayed fair, as it catches them when they try to come in for the grab, after DD'ing way. They expect the fair earlier, and their instinct makes them dash in at that exact moment they think they fair would have missed. Delaying it hits them.
My training partner Vicious has thankfully stopped falling for it so much. So, now he switches his DD'ing to conscious DD'ing. (Which is way better) So, I jump in and he doesn't fall for the delayed fair. Now he dash dances that fair and grabs me. So, I waveland away now.
This is an amazing chasing strategy vs dash dancing that I want to perfect. Chase them with a SH, and then REACT to what they do. If I see them DD trying to punish an early fair, swing with Fair. If I see them wait for it, Waveland backwards and punish their attempt at grabbing the late fair.
My question I have is, will I have enough reaction time to pull this off? I have to have enough reaction time in two different situations in this strategy: One, if I see them trying to punish my initial fair, and two, if they don't fall for it and I see them try to punish the second one. By initial fair I mean, them thinking I am going to fair earlier than I will.
After I master that, I'm going to see if mixing in Side B with my shorthop will do anything. Kind of unorthodox but it's worth experimenting with.
That's just one strat I'm working on. Another is getting close and WD'ing backwards, mixed in with DD'ing. Pretty basic. Get close and threaten, bait them into attacking, and punish. The only difference is I only punished with DD grab before, or mainly. Wavedashing into Fsmash or Side B are alternatives. Generally not effective, but I'm playing without grabs so it's necessary. I wonder if WD back to Utilt would work? Must test.
Retreating Fair works well too, as it's very hard to punish. Retreating Nair works well for stuffing approaches.
If they don't fall the for the bait, I feel when they see me WD back or Fair and I whiff, it conveys that I'm baiting them and trying to punish. So, when I think they will least expect it, I approach with Dtilt or Dash attack. The problem I experience with this is, if they DO decide to approach and it happens to be at the time I approach, Fox's nair generally beats both of those moves. It sucks. Gotta figure out what to do about that...
The BIGGEST problem is punishing attacks. A lot of times I move out of the way instinctively, by dash dancing. I realized that DD'ing on reaction is just a way to move out of the way of an attack, a quick little reaction to keep spacing. I managed to stop grabbing on instinct, but i haven't stopped DD'ing on reaction which is actually good because moving out of the way last minute is better than shielding most of the time.
THE PROBLEM though, lies in the fact that I dd out of the way but I don't punish. I can't grab so I'm like uhhhhh...what now?
I sometimes do DD dolphin slash, but that's only if i've dd'd far enough away and they're at high percents. If I only slightly moved out of the way, then i'll be so close to them the dolphin slash won't sweetspot, so they'll just recover before me usually. If they're at low percents they may not even get knocked down.
Dash Dance side B is kind of good. It is good, but it's easy to CC or get out of. Steffon just CC's it until I'm close enough then jabs me into whatever, or Dtilts me.
It was super annoying playing without grabs at first, but now it's fun. I just hope I can integrate them back in even better than before. If anything, I'll use them more appropriately now instead of making them a main strategy.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Running up and shielding is very versatile, because it allows you to gain ground while being able to defend at a moment's notice (or deal with anything that hits your shield): if you suspect them of trying to grab you on reaction you can just do a retreating fair or wd backward out of shield and f-smash their whiffed grab. If they start adapting by dash attacking through you or crossing you up with SHFFLs, you can change it up by wd forward out of shield instead then dashing back and grabbing them from behind.
I like to safely test the ground when I'm uncertain by just wavedashing out of shield repeatedly. The beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about getting hit if you time wavedashes in between their attacks, and you don't have to worry about getting grabbed (too much) because you're "constantly" moving. Obviously if they get a read on you, they can just grab you as soon as or before you shield, but as long as you pay attention you can usually tell when they're going to try to grab you (and that's when you hit them with a painful combo, etc.).
Same as wavedashing forward out of shield, simply dash dancing through your opponent is a great mixup for when they start overshooting attacks. It requires a great deal of confidence but it's worth it because you become a lot harder to predict. Another way of countering overshot attacks is by simply grabbing your opponent in the middle of his running toward you.
SH wavelands are also a good mixup/bait, as you mentioned. Those are most of the basic safe strategies that I like to use that apply to pretty much any character.
I like to safely test the ground when I'm uncertain by just wavedashing out of shield repeatedly. The beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about getting hit if you time wavedashes in between their attacks, and you don't have to worry about getting grabbed (too much) because you're "constantly" moving. Obviously if they get a read on you, they can just grab you as soon as or before you shield, but as long as you pay attention you can usually tell when they're going to try to grab you (and that's when you hit them with a painful combo, etc.).
Same as wavedashing forward out of shield, simply dash dancing through your opponent is a great mixup for when they start overshooting attacks. It requires a great deal of confidence but it's worth it because you become a lot harder to predict. Another way of countering overshot attacks is by simply grabbing your opponent in the middle of his running toward you.
SH wavelands are also a good mixup/bait, as you mentioned. Those are most of the basic safe strategies that I like to use that apply to pretty much any character.
joeplicate
Smash Master
idk, i think shielding as an approach is kind of overrated
i can only speak from a fox's perspective, but if you watch good people playing in tournament, they nearly never shield. the way i see it, the way most people use shielding is a reflexive habit that they do whenever they feel threatened. about 80 or 90% of the time, whenever you shield when you feel scared, you could have just gotten away with getting hit once, and keeping yourself in a neutral position instead of putting yourself in a defensive position. (shield)
whenever i shield, it's usually after i get hit once, and i'm expecting to have to go on defense. the problem is, you're essentially conditioning yourself to be a timid player. say you get bair'd at low percents in a fox ditto, and you put up your shield. most of the time, when you trade or get poked like this, your opponent is really just throwing out moves, and unless they have 100% perfect reflexes, they won't chase you down DIRECTLY after the bair hits, but rather they'll analyze the situation that comes AFTER they hit you, and try to make up some plan based on the next thing that happens.
basically, i feel like when you get poked, it's mostly a random occurence, and your opponent would need perfect reads to expect their poke to hit and go in after it, to try to make it a combo, in order to make shielding the right choice. this nearly never happens, though, IMO.
staying in your shield for a large part of the match is a bad idea. you get habituated to letting things go because you have less options out of your shield. if you run up to someone, shield, and wavedash forward once they dash dance back, that's basically a slower, worse version of just running/walking/wavedashing up to them.
compare the way i shield to the way mango shields
if anyone's ever seen me play, i like to sit in that bubble forever, hopefully get a shine out, and then follow up that way. but, by trying to bait your opponent into hitting your shield, you're relying on them making a mistake (missing an l-cancel on your shield) AND you're putting yourself in a really defensive position, and surrendering the control of the match. plus, it only takes 3 or 4 times of offensively using your shield for your opponent to realize that you're trying to troll them into a hit, and then they will (most likely) start playing smarter, and keeping you in your shield to worsen your defensive position.
when mango shields as an approach, he's SUPER SUPER FAST about it, and he won't spam it. the way i see it, the right way to approach with shield is as a COUNTERATTACK and not by putting yourself in a defensive position. i haven't really tried this yet--3 days of playing with lovage has only taught me how to shield the WRONG way--but i'm pretty sure that you need to have a strong read on your opponent, who will be approaching in a punishable way, and then the tech skill to follow up (which is harder than it sounds).
tldr:
reacting from your shield is overrated, and you should just be reacting out of a neutral position, like dash dancing, walking, standing, jumping, etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOFTyvS73Q4
look at how little joey shields!!
i can only speak from a fox's perspective, but if you watch good people playing in tournament, they nearly never shield. the way i see it, the way most people use shielding is a reflexive habit that they do whenever they feel threatened. about 80 or 90% of the time, whenever you shield when you feel scared, you could have just gotten away with getting hit once, and keeping yourself in a neutral position instead of putting yourself in a defensive position. (shield)
whenever i shield, it's usually after i get hit once, and i'm expecting to have to go on defense. the problem is, you're essentially conditioning yourself to be a timid player. say you get bair'd at low percents in a fox ditto, and you put up your shield. most of the time, when you trade or get poked like this, your opponent is really just throwing out moves, and unless they have 100% perfect reflexes, they won't chase you down DIRECTLY after the bair hits, but rather they'll analyze the situation that comes AFTER they hit you, and try to make up some plan based on the next thing that happens.
basically, i feel like when you get poked, it's mostly a random occurence, and your opponent would need perfect reads to expect their poke to hit and go in after it, to try to make it a combo, in order to make shielding the right choice. this nearly never happens, though, IMO.
staying in your shield for a large part of the match is a bad idea. you get habituated to letting things go because you have less options out of your shield. if you run up to someone, shield, and wavedash forward once they dash dance back, that's basically a slower, worse version of just running/walking/wavedashing up to them.
compare the way i shield to the way mango shields
if anyone's ever seen me play, i like to sit in that bubble forever, hopefully get a shine out, and then follow up that way. but, by trying to bait your opponent into hitting your shield, you're relying on them making a mistake (missing an l-cancel on your shield) AND you're putting yourself in a really defensive position, and surrendering the control of the match. plus, it only takes 3 or 4 times of offensively using your shield for your opponent to realize that you're trying to troll them into a hit, and then they will (most likely) start playing smarter, and keeping you in your shield to worsen your defensive position.
when mango shields as an approach, he's SUPER SUPER FAST about it, and he won't spam it. the way i see it, the right way to approach with shield is as a COUNTERATTACK and not by putting yourself in a defensive position. i haven't really tried this yet--3 days of playing with lovage has only taught me how to shield the WRONG way--but i'm pretty sure that you need to have a strong read on your opponent, who will be approaching in a punishable way, and then the tech skill to follow up (which is harder than it sounds).
tldr:
reacting from your shield is overrated, and you should just be reacting out of a neutral position, like dash dancing, walking, standing, jumping, etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOFTyvS73Q4
look at how little joey shields!!
Riddle
Smash Lord
I didn't leave it on purpose lol. Don't worry though, I can still pay you for the pizza then.Jesse said:
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
@ Replicate:
I agree with what you're saying on a couple of levels (assuming I understood you correctly). Shielding obviously limits your options outright. My view, however, is that as long as you don't eliminate the options that actually matter, there is no harm in spamming shield when you're more afraid of your opponents pokes than getting grabbed (or you're more likely to get hit by a poke than get grabbed, since you're keeping yourself mobile).
1:06 to 2:25 is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxtSEGKYAc#t=1m6s
I agree with what you're saying on a couple of levels (assuming I understood you correctly). Shielding obviously limits your options outright. My view, however, is that as long as you don't eliminate the options that actually matter, there is no harm in spamming shield when you're more afraid of your opponents pokes than getting grabbed (or you're more likely to get hit by a poke than get grabbed, since you're keeping yourself mobile).
1:06 to 2:25 is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxtSEGKYAc#t=1m6s
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Kanelol
Smash Lord
crouch cancel approach *****
just saying
just saying
joeplicate
Smash Master
that's a really good point
i agree that it gets better and better as your percent goes up, and it's super useful when you're at high % after you just killed the other guy, and you're trying to stack on more damage
what do you mean by options that matter? what criteria are you using there? (don't care really, but i just think this is a kind of crummy idea lol)
my thoughts on that match:
-mango was warming up a little bit, exploring wavedash oos underneath him, and messing with hbox's head a little bit (after all, it's just a mm, so you can't really count out the experimentation factor). i don't think that every one of those shields was for a cut-and-dry, "he's gonna do this so i'll do this and shield now," situation
-mango also has psychic godly reads (like when he shielded, saw hbox missed a grab, fullhopped, predicted puff's wd back oos, landed, and forward smashed). i think that approaching with shield in general gets a lot better when you can read your opponent very well. since there are less things you can do out of it, narrowing down the amount of variety or mixups in your opponents attack cuts down on getting confused, or feeling like there's no answer out of shield. also, having great reads improves your reaction time, which minimizes the amount of time you spend in your shield, which leads to a better counterattack. for a great read of what i'm talking about, there's one point (around 1m 7s or so) where mango shoots a laser, sees hungrybox bairing once in the air, predicts he's gonna come down with another, powershields it, and then wavedashes back oos. if he went forwards i think he would've gotten baired again, cause hbox started backing away.
also, attacking out of shield is REALLY GOOD against jigglypuff. i talked to mango about this match and he said he starting shielding underneath him specifically because he was always just bairing away in the sky. in that situation, jigglypuff is too slow to come down and grab or anything without it being really telegraphed, so the only thing she can do is float around, try to dair your shield (which sucks), or try to open up a horizontal space to bair with.
vs other characters, like falco, you don't want to attack oos the same way, because his mixups on shields are brutal, and if he lands a shine you eat fat damage. as a character, he excels at shield pressure.
but yeah lol
i guess those are my formalized thoughts on using shield to attack
a lot of people think that it's some metagame-changing technique, and the reason why people don't use it is just because they haven't thought of using it that way yet, but i can tell you from experience, and many many hours of being in my shield, that it's very hard to do effectively (and it's complicated, to boot!)
M@1funk$hun
Smash Ace
in the average smash player's lifetime he spends 25 hours and 12 minutes in his shield
FACT
(unless ur jeff)
FACT
(unless ur jeff)
SnowMan
Smash Journeyman
Jesse, fly Kevin out here.
Kevin, come to Rochester.
Kevin, come to Rochester.
I'll see if I can make it up that way eventually. I have a few places I'm still tryin to get to lol.
otg
Smash Master
Apparently it's only a $60 round trip flight from my airport to Rochester. Jesiah might be seeing TFS more then he wants.
SnowMan
Smash Journeyman
Lol, alright.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
OTG- I'd love to have you guys here every weekend, I may even fly you up myself...as long as you're not as much of a **** when you're at my apartment as you are on the boards :-P
Definitely will be flying Niko out if he wants to, or maybe Ill come visit you guys.
I bought my ticket to NC, PP will be picking me up Thursday at 11:30 PM. I took Friday off of work, so we'll probably play well into the morning on Thursday night, and all day Friday.
Tournament time will come around and I am PUMPED to play with all of NC. I want lots of matchup experience and just different playstyles in general.
Any NC'er reading this: I will also (Obviously) be writing about my experiences with the different players and playstyles I come across. Tonight when I get out of work I'll be writing about my goals in terms of training with PP and how i'm preparing for the tournament. I'm coming home Sunday night, so I'll be able to play all day Sunday with PP as well.
Definitely will be flying Niko out if he wants to, or maybe Ill come visit you guys.
I bought my ticket to NC, PP will be picking me up Thursday at 11:30 PM. I took Friday off of work, so we'll probably play well into the morning on Thursday night, and all day Friday.
Tournament time will come around and I am PUMPED to play with all of NC. I want lots of matchup experience and just different playstyles in general.
Any NC'er reading this: I will also (Obviously) be writing about my experiences with the different players and playstyles I come across. Tonight when I get out of work I'll be writing about my goals in terms of training with PP and how i'm preparing for the tournament. I'm coming home Sunday night, so I'll be able to play all day Sunday with PP as well.
otg
Smash Master
Yeah I'm a huge **** on the boards, I can't deny that. I'm just bored tbh, I'm way chiller irl.
huMps
Smash Ace
Next thursday? or tonight?
Hope it's a blast
Hope it's a blast