Quest to Become the Best

[Druggedfox]

I still don't understand how powershielding ***** falco...

All falcos are scrubs >_>

 

[strawhats]

that AIM chat just help me out big time.

 

[Deleted member]

that AIM chat just help me out big time.

ya i'm full of useless information, my fingers just don't know how to play anymore.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

I still don't understand how powershielding ***** falco...

All falcos are scrubs >_>

IKR!? falcos can just blank shot>dash>boost grab marth.

if farther away falco can SH FF perfect waveland>dash>boost grab.

 

[JesiahTEG]

no cash- the blank shot dash boost grab is pretty specific, and even then it's forcing falco to do something different, which turns into a mix up at best.

druggedfox- you dont think powershielding ***** falco? i do. the best thing about falco's lasers is that it stuns you, allowing him to approach safely if he spaces it right. then he hits you and combos you.

You're saying Marth with that capability vs falco isn't deadly? Running powershield, laser stuns him into grab? Into tipper Fsmash? If you do it into Fsmash then he starts shielding, that sets up for a grab as well.

Even if you're far away and you're not close enough to capitalize on it, you can use the stun to move into a range where if he tries to shoot another laser you can punish it before it can come out. If I could ps as much as i wanted to it would DEFINITELY be my first choice to deal with falco's lasers.

Also, vs Nightro last night on FD I powershielded 10/12 lasers in a span of like 10-15 seconds. it looked really cool lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

IMO, one anti-laser strategy that is somewhat underutilized with Marth is running shield - wd out of shield - dash attack under the following laser.

 

[Niko45]

or you could just let the laser hit you instead of shielding to save yourself some lag and maintain better control of your spacing

and yes powershield will rarely give Marth an actual true frame advantage and in the instances where it does (really the only one I can think of is PS grab or PS fair at close range) you would have hit them with dash attack

it is a surprise, though, and people are human, so you can get more out of it if the falco isn't good at dealing with it

 

[Jonas]

Yeah Falco wants you to shield because shielding makes you harmless. If he tries to follow up a laser with some pillar combos, it's much better to take those 3% so you can just run away and pivot grab his approach or something.

WD or Fair OoS is pretty good if he's approaching though. Just get used to jumping as soon as the laser has hit your shield and you're out of shield stun, whether you PS or not.

 

[PoundSlap]

@ jonas: you cannot immediately fair out of shield a laser since youre left with a couple of frames hitlag. altough the laser does only 3% its sort of an electric move that leaves you with 50% more hitlag. a good option when your opponent is in mid range is to shield grab after he shot the laser.

 

[Jonas]

Yeah because Falco just loves to shoot laser at your shield when he's in grab range.

 

[PoundSlap]

Yeah because Falco just loves to shoot laser at your shield when he's in grab range.

marth has the longest standing grab. and if you shield smash di the laser you get also a short distance closer to your opponent. and due to lasers being electric you have more hitlag frames to smash di closer to your opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

it's bad to rely on PS against falco because he can simply choose not to shoot at you when you're grounded. it's a big hit on falco's approach game but it doesn't nearly hinder his camping game, and marth has average/poor approaches to begin with. falco can still place a laser under marth before he lands, giving marth both a set laser stun time and landing lag. marth is already ***** hardest when he lands, so doubling the stun here gives you AMPLE time to **** him up. now should the falco player be stupid and keep doing laser approaches once you're both marth and proficient at PS use, then he deserves to lose. if anything, learning PS is worth it just to make it easier for marth to beat the "bad" falcos that just do techy things and rely on his moves winning. but PS utility decreases as the falco player's intelligence increases, as with pretty much any other tactic in the game. diminishing returns against adaptation, etc.

good marths shouldn't be shielding anyway, but even if they are for some reason it's still highly dangerous for falco to fight marth at a medum range (marth's preferred range) because falco is slower than the other top tiers and is punished so extremely hard by marth's grab game. if anything, shields are falco's worst enemy since his camping and punishment game are so much more reliable than his initial engagement of the enemy.

edit: HEY JESSE! LEARN TO PS FALCO LASER BUT DO NOT RELY ON IT VS BETTER FALCOS. I know you need **** spelled out to you in plain writing sometimes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Waveland off platform Fair :D










...with Sheik

 

[NightroGlycerine]

The thing about my Falco vs. Jesse-- and this is only from my point of view-- is that problems in his game come from assumptions about how a textbook Falco is "supposed" to be played. Falco is supposed to shield pressure like this, gain space like this, punish with this, etc. I'll admit that I have a lot of work to do in regards to finishing combos and making punishes count: I have to be BEAST when I get an opening. But I can't do that yet and that's more of a problem with me not playing enough and getting the patterns down 100%. I don't own a copy of Melee, and that's a problem ^.^

However, because I don't have the technical skills yet, I have to find a way around that. So when I miss techs or miss L-cancels or accidentally do a move when I meant to perform another, I have to make it work. If I can turn a missed approach into a mindgame, usually I can get a free hit in just because it's not what Jesse's expecting.

When I'm playing, I'm making a conscious effort to observe everything my opponent and I are doing wrong, and sometimes I work on it through the match. There are times when I just think, "hmm, I need to practice wavelanding or laser pressure" and just stop what I'm doing then and there and go work on that. In the middle of a match. It's a beautiful thing because my opponents have no idea what's going on, and it seems absolutely random to them. To them, it looks like I'm purposely making a bad choice. But it's just me practicing and getting away with it.

A real aspect of Falco I've found is his unique ability to frustrate and take away options. That's how I view competitive smash: it's a constant battle to take away your opponents best moves and force them to make bad decisions. Sometimes, your opponents have to make the best move, so I put myself in a position where I give them more options on the chance they'll choose a lesser option. My Falco is a constant effort to trick people into making mistakes, and at that point Falco's amazing ability to punish just obliterates. That's my interpretation of what Falco should be doing and that's why I main him.

To Jesse, the main problem with your playing is that while your reflexes are excellent, your spacing is great and your technical abilities are also quite good, your movements are too staccato, too abrupt, too... fast. You make too many actions and make too many decisions. Fluidity is key against Falco. You must be able to weave in and out and expect the unexpected; you must be both relaxed and alert at the same time. You have to be ungood, if that makes any sense. You're strongest when you punish Falco, and Falco dies so easily that you must constantly be on the lookout for holes and mistakes. Your flexibility then allows you to punish all your opponents' mistakes; PP's strength is that he doesn't often make mistakes and he is just as flexible.

But you need to take that a bit further and realize that it's not a game about you punishing mistakes. You can't be in the mindset that it is your responsibility to punish their mistakes. That limits your thinking and creates obstacles for yourself-- you have to punish THIS way if he does THIS and THAT way if he does THAT and so on. That's counterintuitive because it's inherently dogmatic; sure it's sound for learning the basics but sometimes you have to bend the rules or even break them. Instead of you punishing mistakes, their mistakes get punished. That's at least how I view the game and how I play it, and all I lack is the ability to consistently communicate with my character via the controller. That's only a matter of time and practice, though.

You have to be like water, I guess. Flow. You do not hit, it hits.

 

[Druggedfox]

druggedfox- you dont think powershielding ***** falco? i do. the best thing about falco's lasers is that it stuns you, allowing him to approach safely if he spaces it right. then he hits you and combos you.

You're saying Marth with that capability vs falco isn't deadly? Running powershield, laser stuns him into grab? Into tipper Fsmash? If you do it into Fsmash then he starts shielding, that sets up for a grab as well.

Even if you're far away and you're not close enough to capitalize on it, you can use the stun to move into a range where if he tries to shoot another laser you can punish it before it can come out. If I could ps as much as i wanted to it would DEFINITELY be my first choice to deal with falco's lasers.

And what happens when your powershields start getting baited? Powershielding completely destroys falco players who aren't capable of dealing with it, but against a really good falco it can end up working against you just as easily.

There was a night where I was playing and I literally had to stop lasering almost entirely because at least 90% of my lasers were being powershielded. This eventually progressed into a lot of my aerials being powershielded, my dash attacks being powershielded, even my recovery was powershielded once into an fsmash. Point is, I have never in my life seen such a ridiculous amount of powershielding; I played futilely against it for 5 hours straight, but by the end of it I started to understand how to get around it.

As soon as falco drops anything resembling a "Textbook" style, or anything linear really, marth starts getting annoyed. Lots of empty hops, delayed aerials, switching up laser timings... eventually marth ends up looking like an idiot shielding at nothing for at least half the game. By adding something to your play, there's a lot more than can be used against you. Now, let's say you're of a sufficiently higher skill level than your opponent to know when you should and shouldn't be trying to powershield (calling his baits etc). What now? Falco has a lot of things that can help, like his 1 frame invincible move we call a shine. If marth is far away when he's powershielding, there's no threat to him if he's expecting your powershield because he can get out of the way of a forward smash etc. If you're close enough where you're grabbing him then falco can often shine/jab/buffer spotdodge to dodge your grab and completely reverse the situation on you. In short, falco can control the spacing of his lasers such that none of your powershields actually lead to something on a consistent basis, regardless of whether or not he's successfully baiting you. Combine this with the fact that you can DI lasers to avoid getting grabbed etc and falco's ability to bait your shields rather successfully; suddenly, powershielding can easily become more of a hindrance than anything else.

I can go more indepth about particular baits, spacing, or anything else if you really want to know. Otherwise, I'll just leave it at:

Powershielding is only deadly when the opponent isn't familiar with dealing with it.

 

[NightroGlycerine]

As soon as falco drops anything resembling a "Textbook" style, or anything linear really, marth starts getting annoyed. Lots of empty hops, delayed aerials, switching up laser timings... eventually marth ends up looking like an idiot shielding at nothing for at least half the game. By adding something to your play, there's a lot more than can be used against you. Now, let's say you're of a sufficiently higher skill level than your opponent to know when you should and shouldn't be trying to powershield (calling his baits etc). What now? Falco has a lot of things that can help, like his 1 frame invincible move we call a shine. If marth is far away when he's powershielding, there's no threat to him if he's expecting your powershield because he can get out of the way of a forward smash etc. If you're close enough where you're grabbing him then falco can often shine/jab/buffer spotdodge to dodge your grab and completely reverse the situation on you. In short, falco can control the spacing of his lasers such that none of your powershields actually lead to something on a consistent basis, regardless of whether or not he's successfully baiting you. Combine this with the fact that you can DI lasers to avoid getting grabbed etc and falco's ability to bait your shields rather successfully; suddenly, powershielding can easily become more of a hindrance than anything else.

I can go more indepth about particular baits, spacing, or anything else if you really want to know. Otherwise, I'll just leave it at:

Powershielding is only deadly when the opponent isn't familiar with dealing with it.

This. I actually look forward to when you start powershielding; because then I know you're going to do something before you do it. That knowledge is invaluable, and I can exploit your predictability any way I can.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Jesiah and I had some cool games tonight.

<3 that dude

 

[~Twitch~]

i'll **** him today.

 

[unknown522]

help vs falco? looks like you hit a brick wall jesse.

that sucks.

also PS doesn't **** falco.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falco vs Marth is all about momentum (and control, but that's tied in with momentum).

 

[FoxLisk]

aerial to delayed shine on shield ***** so many people. obviously it's better to still hit the l cancel, but throwing in a late shine now and then can ****. it's like when jiggs empty sh grabs you. you're just waiting for something to happen so you stay in shield. it's a good mixup used sparingly.

 

[Deleted member]

aerial to delayed shine on shield ***** so many people. obviously it's better to still hit the l cancel, but throwing in a late shine now and then can ****. it's like when jiggs empty sh grabs you. you're just waiting for something to happen so you stay in shield. it's a good mixup used sparingly.

not really, all it does is put you at unnecessary risk and gives your opponent a chance to beat you. if jesse could simply outplay his opponents he wouldn't have a problem worth asking on a forum. it would be better to avoid the unnecessary risk, not give your opponent a chance to beat you, and to find something stronger to use instead that minimizes risk.

this isn't to say "don't take risks" or to be risk-aversive, but it's just unnecessary since there are better options.

@ jesiahTEG: the fundamental point of landing an aerial into a shine is not its combo potential, but rather that it allows fox/falco to place their body boxes onto a shield with lag and to still have a way to cover themselves from any means to take advantage of that lag. In short, that shine is purely DEFENSIVE and is an option that other characters do not have. Think carefully, how many characters have landing on the opponents shield as an option that you would try...ever? Jigglypuff/Kirby can land an aerial on an opponent into crouch, fox/falco can do an aerial into shine... thats pretty much it. Every other character has to resort to very good spacing to safely hit a shield from the air.

now, whether you land the aerial or not, if the shine connects, your defensive purpose was successful and you were able to cover your aerial lag safely. from there, any combos you get from the shine are a bonus. the fundamental difference here is that when you perform the initial aerial, you are aiming for that to hit, NOT the shine that follows. if something else comes from it, good for you, but your primary objective is to cover yourself. it is no different than say, aiming sheik's bair to hit at the tip of her foot.

 

[ViciousEnd]

You might not agree, but tomahawk grabs **** Mow. It's just a super high risk-high reward mix-up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Foxlisk: The problem with late aerial -> shine shield pressure is that it loses to people who act immediately after the shine (nair out of shield is the most common response to this kind of shield pressure). They even have enough time to wavedash out of shield. Lol.

 

[JPOBS]

im fairly sure they always have enough time to wd oos if they time it right.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's a very tight window if they do shine -> instant retreating dair/nair though.

 

[Deleted member]

You might not agree, but tomahawk grabs **** Mow. It's just a super high risk-high reward mix-up.

why do high risk high reward options when the top tier is crammed with low risk high reward options? the characters jesse plays are not exactly short on punishment options. there are simply better things you could be doing. there is no damage removing unnecessarily risky "mix-ups" from your game. even if you want a tricky playstyle (which I personally prefer) keep the mix-ups to the ones that won't get you killed. you only need 2 options to make your opponent have to guess, and 1 of those options is always to simply not engage the opponent.

"don't jump into the ****."

 

[Foy]

Vicious:

Given how broken grabs are in this game, and especially amongst the better characters, having multiple options and mix-ups to lead into grabs can never really hurt. I'm not denying that it's risky, but I think given how the metagame is really moving into taking a hit on a **** and abusing out of shield options, that it is safer than it would really suggest.

 

[Riddle]

That set with Twitch was cool, but you looked really nervous. I'm sad you lost :[.

You can still win the tourney!

 

[Zodiac]

I find counter really effective against pressure happy(ALL) Falco's. you just need to not over counter. fair>grab>****. Just watch for lasers and dont get hit by any approaching aerial. Its really all reads against falco. which is hard to when he's coming out at 100 miles per hour

 

[JesiahTEG]

Actually Riddle I wasn't nervous at all. Maybe a lil at the end but if anything he was more nervous than I was haha...Lots to post but gotta spend the rest of the time here practicing.

 

[Riddle]

I just saw lots of moves that you wouldn't normally make. Like you were side b'ing tonsss and getting punished pretty bad for it.

 

[Mike G]

Sup Jesiah

You rocked me pri good in that tourney, dude. Keep up the good work. I'll have to read this blog after I get some sleep. lol

 

[~Twitch~]

i was too nervous on the first match and got ****ed up for it.

lucky for me though i got it together on the next match.

ggs jesiah you're really good. can't wait to see you get top 10 at nationals. ^^

 

[Dr Peepee]

Twitch ***** and was nervous too idgaf

So Jesiah said I should talk about him so I guess I will. <3

Jesse is a player I'd like to see more people be like. He doesn't spend a lot of the game trying to be flashy or cool or in a combo video, but he's also not really trying to confine himself to a narrow playstyle. He's effective, efficient, somewhat inexperienced with matchups and nerves, but he's got the drive to sit down and play every match, every stock, every position like it matters if it comes down to learning all he can or becoming the best. It's something that he reminded me to do again myself, as I've gotten too lazy lately.

His attitude is great too, always motivated and quick to praise others for their good work. I applaud him for pushing me both in game and out of it.

Eh **** you Jesse I ain't writin anymore we didn't get to play enough Marth/Falco <3 come back soon bro.

 

[Druggedfox]

JESSE I SEE YOU VIEWING THIS THREAD...

post something?

 

[JesiahTEG]

im playing that was someone else in my apartment...too tired to post tomorrow for sure though

 

[Mahone]

After meeting this guy at the NC tourney i had to read this... and it's AMAZING!

Good stuff, keep it up.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

i'm salty that we didn't get to play jesse

you damn marth main you

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

yo I'm about to be able to name search and see my name in this thread.