Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
:shiek: 
), and those lingering hitboxes make his moves safer on block than most characters. It does mean that his offensive when he has to makes for a tough thing to do, but most of the time when he's fighting a character that can outcamp him, most of them have lots of general problems killing, which help his options after severe damage has been racked in the long run. I think I understand what you mean by "clutch", but that would be interesting to go into detail with. Dair though is a very gamebreaking concept in itself, even if it is outranged, the mobility and punishment it offers to anyone who tries juggling Lucario (with the possible exception of ZSS and the like) hides a weakness that is usually shared by most of the cast: a soft underbelly. That and it aids recovery in many ways.
pierce i am not going to try to argue with u about who is better diddy or snake b/c idk. What i will do is point out this thread is a prediction for tier list #4 so i don't see anyway diddy will be above snake by the time it comes out.
Hmm... I'd hesitate to put ZSS in the top 10. I'm not saying she definitely isn't worthy of it, but I don't think she's quite proved herself yet. I'd say 12th or so.
Yeah, this is mostly true.
Her grab isn't that horrible. Yes, it's comparatively very slow, but it has extra range thta extends way past her hands. This allows her to potentially shieldgrab more laggy attacks with a lot of shield pushback.
She can't really approach at all....
This is all mostly true.
Out of all the characters currently below her, I'd say that Pokemon Trainer, Mario, Ike and possibly Yoshi are better than her. Everyone else I think can be said to be worse. She's definitely better than Jigglypuff and Samus, that's for sure. And the idea of her being on the same level as Ganon is just... wrong.
The number of times I've been hit out of FW just as I'm about to disappear....Face it you were amazed at my sexy Zelda at br2.
see that innuendo I did there?
but yeah, zelda's recovery is so full of fail. Honestly though, she would be so much better just if thunder kick had a bigger sweetspot like it did in melee.
*Applause*tl;dr:
Hi Zero Suit Samus, I'm really happy for you, and Imma lechoo finish, but Lucario is the best low A tier of ALL TIME! Of all time!
I'd normally agree with you, but her specific characteristics keep her from having many bad matchups in the higher tiers. I suppose that's the main reason why she's regarded so highly when it comes to tier lists.
Falco beats Diddy, evens w/ MK (arguably), Wario and Snake. He also counters D3 and gets countered by ICs.
I thought the Wario matchup was 55-45 or neutralFalco beats Diddy, evens w/ MK (arguably), Wario and Snake. He also counters D3 and gets countered by ICs.
I'd say 4th best for sure.
Falco has two counters: Pika and ICs. I don't think Diddy gets destoyed by two or more ppl so that's why.
You have to look at the whole high tier, not just the top5
Isn't marth something like 65-35 as well?
ZSS' matchups are weird. She goes 40:60-60:40 against almost all of the cast, top tiers and low tiers alike. She get soft countered or goes even with various low and mid tiers like Sheik and Luigi, yet counters a number of high tiers such as Olimar and ROB.
Marth wins 60-40 and when i watch top marths vs top falcos they are always really close and could go either way.
What do you mean by soft countered? ZSS isn't soft countered (which I think means 65:35) by anyone except Falco. I think Luigi is around even. And I don't think ZSS counters Olimar. At best its 60:40 for ZSS unless there has been some major recent developments in that matchup.
For clarification:
Kirby fairs rather poorly against the S-A tier characters compared to the other B tier chars.You guys are going in circles. Whenever I come in here, you're all either discussing Diddy's future placements being either best/2nd-3rd best, and then choosing a character, saying "That character is good for blah blah blah", "oh, but look at the MUs", "The character's traits make it better than this other character", "So you're saying this other character isn't good? Well (loop from the first quotation)".
I liked it more when the thread was new, and had a couple of big posts here and there that delved me deeper into the writer's mind. Now it's just one-two-three sentences and move onto the next reply.
[/complain]
Oh and, Kirby is still high tier. I don't know why people suddenly say he's not.
If that's what you meant then what you said before would be accurate. But I thought it was
Or... you can accept them for what they are, not take them too seriously, and have some fun discussing them.
I thought this was it too.
Just because someone beats them doesn't mean they are a better character. If that was true, Luigi would be top tier because he beats Diddy and Olimar.
Dedede is countered by IC's, Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, and MK (Not sure if Pikachu and MK are but I think they are. Not 100% sure) but he is #6. There are so many factors that go into the tier list. One of those factors is rep and D3 has a lot of rep going for him. I wanna say he is the most common character I've seen besides MK and Snake.Falco has two counters: Pika and ICs. I don't think Diddy gets destoyed by two or more ppl so that's why.
Not really, Kirby does better than lots of B tier characters against top+high tiers. Only theoretically does Kirby seem bad. Theoretical stuff can be quite farfetched at times, like how Marth can upB out of multi-hit moves making him easily one of the best punishers around (yet in actual matches, you don't see this pulled off as often as it says in MU discussions).
Popularity isn't considered when making tier lists, or at least not much. The amount of people who use a character don't make the character better or worse, so yeah.
Marth definitely loses to ROB and DK and potentially Wolf, which is considered 50/50 right now on character boards.
How does Marth DEFINITELY lose to ROB and DK when it's a 50/50? Isn't definitely losing like, 80/20?
Ok but even with that definition, Marth still isn't going to lose because both those MUs are 50/50, not a disadvantage.
DK can out range marth plus DK can gimp marth crazy easy.Which high/top level Marth players has Cable played? I want to see some videos that show DK outright beats Marth. Marth has greater speed and can gimp DK very well. Yes, DK has more range than Marth, which is the name of Marth's game, however, DK only has a handful of moves he can use effectively against Marth, which will make DK fairly predictable. The only move of DK's we can't punish is a retreating bair, so are you just going to throw out retreating bairs the whole time and expect to win? I think this as at least 50/50.
Pierce, give us your input! You know more than me
Yeah this is incorrect, 45-55 to 55-45 is basically even, 60-40 to 65-35 is soft counter, anything worse than that is a hard counter.
Marth can gimp DK crazy easy too. DK may outrange Marth, but the only move Marth can't punish OoS is a retreating bair. Besides gimps and tipper Fsmashes we have Dolphin Slash OoS and we have tipper Nairs. Similar to how nair works very well against DDD, it works well against DK too.
