Mario has solid approach options and defense options. Despite what most people say, killing isn't his problem. He has good set-ups, can continue to rack up damage, and an extremely underestimated recovery. His fsmash can easily hit a missed grab, which is easy to cause, through fireballs. His Nair ***** dodging altogether as Boss recently showed me, and his ability to weave is amazing.
Mario's problem is that his punishing game is pretty lame. His Fair is very slow, so if someone hits the front of Mario's shield, he doesn't really have amazing options. His jab, ftilt, and dsmash all quite suffer, and his grab range is absolutely pitiful. THIS is the reason Mario is so bad vs. Marth. On characters like this, once they get Mario in his shield, it's easy to apply pressure, because Mario's range on retaliation is pitiful. His Bair has adequate range to serve as a spacing move.
Mario works around this range problem with his gdlk fireball to create holes and therefore he can get approaches. He also maintains momentum well (seriously, Nair, Dair, and Bair complement each other WAY too good, especially with Uair to top it off). Since most people like to compare, I'll say Luigi lacks the mobility in the air to use his Uair in the same sense, and cannot weave. His aerial moveset is also less complimented by his fireball. Cape also gives him an amazing mix-up, and an alternative option to airdodge, helping him out of juggles, despite being slightly weak from below (not to mention the AMAZING B-reverse fireball.) Still, these options are not immediately accessible OOS. This makes Mario's shield a far weaker tool than most in Brawl (see Ganondorf) and therefore is what ultimately holds him back.
In case you all didn't notice, I added Ike and Bowser a few days ago.
This was posted a few pages ago
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8679095&postcount=1086
I will now reply:
Lucario's frame data on his grounded moves is indeed very slow. His jab is a pitiful frame 6, and his fastest ground move is his frame 5 utilt. His dtilt is mediocre and only useful because he can crawl. I believe it's frame 10 Ftilt is amazing, but has a lot of startup, and I believe it comes out something slow like 12. Lucario's standard standing grab has low range. Basically, he's not beating anyone on the ground in terms of movespeed. With not even a single frame 4 option, he's having a difficult time applying real ground pressure.
The safe Usmash was a typo, and I believe I meant to say Fsmash, and have since fixed it.
Regardless of whether you all finally realized Dair is not as safe as it originally was, I have still correctly labeled it as
clutch UTILITY.
I understand perfectly well EXACTLY how Lucario's power bonuses work. Every character is capable of DI and this is completely irrelevant to the MU. Lucario fortunately has a bit of weight backing him up, but no hitbox on his UpB does indeed limit his recovery, despite it still being usable. Lucario's roll allows him to avoid kill moves a lot, but against the good characters, Lucario can easily find himself losing a stock first, and then struggling to catch up against a campy opponent. Aura is neutralizing, but not always in Lucario's favor (ironic as that sounds).
Lucario is one of the characters I understand best, because RJ is my sparring partner. Lucario vs. Marth is a excellent MU for both characters to refine their skills, because Lucario forces Marth to pressure CORRECTLY and apply good spacing, and it's good for Lucario because it teaches him to camp and attack correctly, and to utilize good reads and openings.
About Mr. Game and Watch:
Though it's been beaten to death, GnW is a character who is all about momentum. His amazing hitboxes and generally low ending lag, but pitiful frame data on start-up make him extremely momentum based. I main Marth, so I don't find him a problem, but I'm completely aware of all the exploitable stuff mentioned. This doesn't really neutralize the fact that he generally shuts down a lot of characters below him if you play the MU correctly from the GnW POV. I have a rather unique GnW, so I'm interested in playing you Praxis.
Someone pointed out that you can SDI Lucas' Dair. Someone else said that no one does this. FALSE. I ALWAYS do this without fail. I think Ness and Lucas really do get wrecked by the grab release stuff, and their range issues, which is sad, because they are interestingly built and fun characters.
Wolf and Fox are both really good character builds, except they get ***** by gimmicks way too much. Atomsk's Wolf IS really good (he's going to use it on me in tourney, and I'm not looking forward to it, I hate fighting Wolf). Wolf has a lot of potential in his build and moveset, but his immune system is that of a child. My opinions of Fox and Wolf as of late has rebounded back to their placement in C-Tier.
Also, after a bunch of heavy consideration, I realize that due to the dynamics of stages in Brawl, MK is the best character. Diddy is probably second best, followed by Snake, then Falco, then Wario, then ICs.
