Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[DMG]

There are two things holding IC's back.

Stages.

People playing gayer on stages.

Once people figure out that even the "neutral" stages like Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat, Ps1, etc aren't "lol **** on Neutral Status" for IC's, then it's obvious they are not that good. First match of the set, ban FD/strike it, and strike something kinda dumb like Yoshi's Island (playable, but most characters can try for a better matchup on Smashville or Battlefield or whatever). Almost any stage at that point is pretty good against IC's.

Smashville: Camp the platform, glide under the stage, edgecamp while platform is near and then go back to platform camping, attack them on stage while retreating to platform, etc.

Battlefield: Camp the platforms, glide under the stage (kinda small stage, but it can work), go safely from platform to platform keeping horizontal spacing from them.

PS1: Camp the platforms/areas they cannot approach you safely in. Some characters can go offstage pretty far and then come back safely because of the stage transformation (burning tree, windmill, etc).

Lylat: Oh dear lord. This stage is like heaven against IC's. If you get grabbed here, chances are you did not play gay enough. Very large tilting stage with platforms galore, lots of vertical camping space, very good stage for most characters to take IC players to.


I have so many people tell me "But DMG, you can't camp the platforms against IC's, their Uair is too good!" and then you see people Dair camping them all the time with MK, you see G&W players playing keepaway, Lucario, Wario, even Snake and Jigglypuff. Like once you learn to pick a good character against them and camp them appropriately, then it starts to become clearer that they don't do so hot, at least not top 5 level. Even if you consider the character currently underrepresented and in the future they will have more people behind them, that's not a big enough/valid enough reason to put them at top 5.

With that being said, they are still obviously a good character. I would be a little surprised if they were not top 10, however at the same time I do see a lot of other characters being more solid than them. Really IC's to me seem like a sharp Chess Defense for Black, say the Sicilian Dragon. White probably has the advantage, but the game becomes very dynamic and full of tactics for both sides. IC's are a very dynamic character that certainly can have the advantage against pretty much anyone if they make a slight misstep, but if the other person plays up to par the IC's will find themselves winning less/clearly at a disadvantage.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Actually from what I read about the Sicilian Dragon, it sounds like it can be very dangerous to play the strategy if the opponent is familiar with it. Could that also apply here? If the opponent has a good idea what the IC's are limited to, could this "top tier" be crushed?

(For the record I did have to wiki Sicilian Dragon, a cruel reminder of how little I know about chess)

 

[DMG]

The Sicilian Defense, particularly the Dragon, offers some of the sharpest/most dynamic variations in top level chess period. Most good players would agree that White definitely has the advantage, at least 4-8 moves past the starting point of the Dragon (there are a lot of variations in the Dragon, almost all of them are considered sound for Black even if it gives White the advantage), but if either side missteps slightly it can lead to a crushing victory/defeat. It is considered sound, in that there are no games from White that clearly indicate his advantage is decisive later on in the game (compared to the Taimanov Variation of the Benoni which usually forces Black to adopt a very different moveset through transpositions or he basically has to give up the idea of playing a Benoni very well along the theme lines). However, it's safe to say that White definitely has the advantage, and when played well enough he probably secures at least a draw, if not something like winning a pawn in the endgame and forcing Black to scramble for a draw.

The same could be said for IC's. Playing as them, you are making a bold play, basically signaling to your opponent that if they make even a tiny mistake, they can be crushed very fast. The tradeoff is having dynamic gameplay at the risk of the other person maintaining their advantage if played well. The difference in Chess and Brawl is that you also have to consider that the other person can win if the timer runs out and they have a % lead. So now not only can the other guy probably secure an advantage on you, he has other means of converting that advantage into something decisive.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

How well does the dragon fare in speed chess?

EDIT: For clarity, I mean who generally needs more time to think, white or black?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, Zucco almost timed out Meep with Lucario, but killed them anyways , so it's definitely possible.
Sicilian was the play my best friend used a lot, but that's because I like E4 so much.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

The Sicilian Defense, particularly the Dragon, offers some of the sharpest/most dynamic variations in top level chess period.

The Sicilian Dragon is rarely played by the world's current top players.

The Sicilian Najdorf Variation is much better.

Over the last four years, there have been only six games with an minimum player rating of 2600 where black has won using the Dragon.

Compared to over a hundred where black has won using the Najdorf.

 

[ru5514n]

Bobby Fischer reportedly said about the Dragon: "All white has to do is put pieces on the h-file, then sac, sac, mate." It's kind of an oversimplified view about the opening, but white is more likely to put pressure on the kingside, and crash through, than black can do the same on the queenside.

According to this database:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/expl...033.32034.32069.32070.32071.32072.32073.32074

In a Dragon, White wins 43% of the time, black wins 27.7% of the time, and 29.3% of the games are draws. The Najdorf offers a better chance for white to go wrong, and for black to win.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Yeah, Bobby Fischer was notable for his dragon slaying hahaha.

The reason I didn't use the chess games database was to limit it to the highest levels of play and keep it to the modern "metagame" (lol), because there has been a significant drop-off in dragon use in the last ~ 30-40 years or so (partly due to Bobby Fischer), but especially in top level play.

 

[ru5514n]

Well, what database do you use? chessgames.com is the only free public one that I know of.

P.S. To those who are looking for intelligent Brawl converstion, I'm sorry, I know this is hugely offtopic.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

When I study my openings, I use Chess.com, but it's pretty much the same thing as chess games.

What I did to research those specific facts was:

I went to chess.com
-Learn
-> Learn openings

- Search Games
-> Advanced

Then I inputted the relevant figures.


Also, Brawl -> Chess topic change = +30 thread IQ points.

Actually I take that back, the chess.com forums are horrendous, there are things that we would absolutely not allow here like:

"STALEMATE IS A DUMB RULE BECAUSE IT MADE ME DRAW. CHANGE THE RULES OF CHESS PLZKTHX."

Like that, except times 1000.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Was this thread kinda necro'd?
Also, chess talk? ...
I hope no one takes this time to do that annoying brawl=chess thing. Not saying you guys are...but...IDK why makes my

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I agree. Why must everyone INSIST on comparing everything to chess!? (ESPECIALLY BRAWL)

(Though DMG's analogy is tame compared to most. I do have some qualms about it nonetheless, but that's mostly OCDish stuff.)

 

[ru5514n]

Idk, people find the strangest parallels between chess and brawl, or pretty much anything between anything. I guess some people like to think they're smart when they say "LULZ METAKNIGHT IZ BROKEN AND SO IZ E4 THEY SHOULD BOTH BE BANNED CUZ THEY BE SOOO CHEAP".

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I know, there was one person who was comparing Lucario v. Olimar (or was it Marth???), and said it was like R (+K) v. Q (+K), and that the rook could win sometimes by out maneuvering the Queen. and I was like RAGE

There is no way for a rook to out maneuver a Queen, just due to their basic movement structures.

Pretty much every (except for a couple freak positions where the Rook skewers the K and Q, and weird stuff like that), position of a R v. Q is solved for Queen, i.e. a 0-100 match-up, not a 4-6 or whatever it is now.


Also, I have a particular distaste for comparisons to chess openings, first off, about 99.9% of people won't know what you are talking about, making the whole purpose of the comparison effectively useless (unless you are just trying to sound smart).

Then for the .1% of people who do understand you, unless you are extremely knowledgeable in Brawl, extremely knowledgeable in Chess, and are absolutely fantastic in making analogies/comparisons, your analogy/comparison most likely flawed.

(Don't take this personally DMG, it is not meant as a personal attack.)

 

[dainbramage]

Falco's jab was still broken, its simply because his hurtbox wasn't touch that he was not hurt.

G&W's 9 hammer hit Falco's Jab and Went through. Dtilt hit his Jab and clanked/both people stopped moving.

Whoops. Sorry SL.

 

[ShadowLink84]

blaaaaarghhhhh

 

[Shaya]

If IC's reach 3rd place this next tier list,

this will mean that every character who's ever been 3rd in the brawl tier list has had a death/[gay chain] grab on Donkey Kong.

Any character who wants to get 3rd needs to explore their **** donkey kong metagame.

 

[dainbramage]

I really do hope you have dyslexia otherwise I am going to be pissed.
You are trying to use words to disprove FACT.
Can you please do me a favor and stop posting please.

Wha...? I was wrong.

I was apologising for acting like an *** whilst being wrong.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

*Puts on Moderator Cap*

Dain: When SL read "Whoops. Sorry SL." he thought you meant something like "Sorry SL, but you're wrong." [Truthfully that's how I first interpreted it to be.]

SL: As should be evident by the above post, he was not being sarcastic, but meant "Sorry, SL I was wrong."



YEAH

I am really bored.

 

[ShadowLink84]

bah im sorry about that it was really douchey of me. *deletes post*
Don't know why I took it that way. Sorry

Edit: I blame the Republicans

 

[Praxis]

I disagree with everything said in the OP about G&W. He has no kill setups whatsoever and isn't very good at all.

 

[Shaya]

Have you ever been GRABBED by a game and watch looking for the kill Praxis?
3 throws,
2 kill moves,
DI reads/tech chases only,
Final Destination

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Praxis, it's kinda obvious to me that you never played against that good a GaW if you think that he has no kill setups.

Say nair cancel>smash or fair.

 

[Zori]

Not all g&w play like valdens lol

 

[OverLade]

I agree with Praxis.

But the nature of the character allows him to keep up with the vast majority of the cast. Only a handful of characters can altogether avoid his kill moves (Marth/MK). Even if he can't kill with a Smash then Fair will eventually kill at 150-ish. He's good just because overall his moves are really good but his kill ability is pretty bad.

 

[Praxis]

Praxis, it's kinda obvious to me that you never played against that good a GaW if you think that he has no kill setups.

Say nair cancel>smash or fair.

I'll go let UTD Zac, Hylian, Valdens, and Lee Puff know that they're bad. kthxbai.

I've played every top G&W on the WC and midwest and I'm fairly certain I know the matchup better than (almost?) anyone else on the planet. G&W shouldn't kill you with his smashes.

Say Smash DI + watching out for obvious setups.

Not all g&w play like valdens lol

I 3-0'd Hylian at Genesis in a $20 MM. Maybe more G&W's SHOULD play more like Valdens. xD

Have you ever been GRABBED by a game and watch looking for the kill Praxis?
3 throws,
2 kill moves,
DI reads/tech chases only,
Final Destination

Tech roll away from him to a jab or shield depending on if you think he's going to dash attack or regrab.

Even IF he guesses that you will tech and the direction you will roll he only has a 50% chance of either a regrab or a dash attack.

No kill.

And if you can't tech it 100% of the time, go practice it until you can.

 

[Hylian]

You should mention that I haden't played GW in months when you 3-0ed me. I only played IC's at genesis. When I mained GW I did beat you. I knew I was going to lose having not played him in months though but I still honor mm's that I make and I told you I would at hobo when I beat you.

*shrugs*

 

[Shaya]

Game and Watch has got this.

<3 Texas.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf moving up????? Almost every PR has a Wolf on it. Wolf's has a ton of even matchups and only 3 really bad ones. Even the bad ones are winnable unlike fox vs pika or ganon vs ic. Wolf is at least bottom of c tier material.

 

[Alphicans]

Why is GaW getting so much bad rep lately. He's a legit character becoming more and more underrated.

 

[Tidal]

I guess the real G&W's should step up and place high to prove everyone wrong. Until then people won't stop disrespecting him

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'll go let UTD Zac, Hylian, Valdens, and Lee Puff know that they're bad. kthxbai.
You just do that

I've played every top G&W on the WC and midwest and I'm fairly certain I know the matchup better than (almost?) anyone else on the planet. G&W shouldn't kill you with his smashes.
Maybe that counts for your character, but not every character has the tools to handle GaW's smashes.

Say Smash DI + watching out for obvious setups.
How can you smashDI a single hit so much to avoid a smash (you'd basicly be all Goku up this game), and obvious setups are obvious, but there ARE less obvious setups, and sometimes you just have no options

Tech roll away from him to a jab or shield depending on if you think he's going to dash attack or regrab.
Not every character has a Tech Roll that fast, i.e. if I play my zero suit and a GaW predicts my tech roll with an usmash I'm ****ed, even WITH a 1 frame jab

Praxis I still <3 u :-D

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I guess the real G&W's should step up and place high to prove everyone wrong. Until then people won't stop disrespecting him

This is a poor outlook. Mr. Game & Watch, or any other character, is not affected by popularity. Mr. Game & Watch still rules and is top tier calibur even if no one plays him. People talking down on him is obnoxious, but it's not a big deal. His ability to win isn't affected by what people think, and I'm assured enough in the quality of my character not to feel insecure about it. The SBR can put Mr. Game & Watch below Ganon for all I care; he is and always will be top tier by my reckoning.

I would comment how interesting the comments from a Peach main on this are. "No kill setups whatsoever" is quite the ****ing analysis... except for the part where that's totally missing the point of the character. Mr. Game & Watch has fairly few "setups" (though he does have a few handy things); he is all about landing things cold. His moves rule on a ton of levels; this is completely realistic. They have great range with massive disjoints, do tons of damage, work as some of the best shield pressure in the game, generally aren't very punishable, and kill low. He even has uair combined with such a diverse moveset that he is probably the least affected member of the entire cast by stale moves. Mr. Game & Watch has amazing mobility thanks to the unique options Fire and dair give him. His amazing recovery and bucket braking mean his survivability isn't even bad, contrary to what you might think from his low weight (but his low weight and generally good physics do a fine job of making him one of the hardest to chainthrow/combo characters in the game). Him not having many setups is an explanation for why he's not ridiculously broken, not an explanation for why he's "not very good at all".

I mean, killing with G&W is pretty basic stuff; control the flow of the match and just look for when you can land stuff. Just look at UTD Zac play, really. He lands Judgment 9 a stupid amount (lucky guy!); Judgment Hammer is the single hardest move in Mr. Game & Watch's moveset to land. You can't tell me the opportunity to land all of these things doesn't exist; it's not like he's using magic to land Judgment Hammer (though I suspect he has minor magic at work to determine which number he gets). Mr. Game & Watch players just need to build the right positions and make things happen. If G&W isn't landing something, either he doesn't need to land it in that match or he's just being outplayed which isn't a character based thing. I could really get into it more, but I don't see the need.

I pointed out it comes from a Peach main because of how opposite she is. She has tons of setups and all those tricks, but due to the fact that her kill moves are flat out bad and most of her raw moves really aren't that impressive, she's fairly mediocre. Maybe it's hard to appreciate the value of a character who works on principles so different from your own?

 

[Pierce7d]

I will return to this thread in full force shortly, I'd just like to mention that tech chase Fair or juggle into baiting an airdodge and Fairing qualify as kill set-ups in my book. Also, when you're on the edge, that's enough of a kill set-up right there, especially for GnW who can cover a LARGE amount of options.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Dtilt with G&W and wait for a jump, FH fair --> kill

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is GaW getting so much bad rep lately. He's a legit character becoming more and more underrated.

Wow. You have the same avatar as my Aib. O_O

 

[hichez50]

Why is GaW getting so much bad rep lately. He's a legit character becoming more and more underrated.

Its probably because his meta game is "1D". Its great but it doesn't allow a lot of room for mixup. Gaw is like a computer or a text book style of characters. You only have 1 or 2 options in ever scenario while some characters have 4-5.

 

[Kitamerby]

Its probably because his meta game is "1D". Its great but it doesn't allow a lot of room for mixup. Gaw is like a computer or a text book style of characters. You only have 1 or 2 options in ever scenario while some characters have 4-5.

Do people still think this? He's no more "predictable" or "one dimensional" than most anyone else. Some characters promote varied playstyles and options due to the versatility of the character's moveset, (*coughMetaKnightcough*) but for the most part, there's no problem with GnW's "predictability."

 

[Kewkky]

About time Pierce got invited into the super secret smash friends club. Being a researcher gave him an awesome color and all, but I was betting he could've gotten something better out of all the work he has been doing on Brawl's frame data and theoretical situations THAT ACTUALLY CAN HAPPEN IN A GAME.

cheers@


And, waiting on the OP's full force reply... About time too, didn't want this thread abandoned.

 

[Alphicans]

Its probably because his meta game is "1D". Its great but it doesn't allow a lot of room for mixup. Gaw is like a computer or a text book style of characters. You only have 1 or 2 options in ever scenario while some characters have 4-5.

Someone needs to kill the good player who originally said this. Predictability is based on player not character, I thought this was common knowledge/sense, but I guess not.