Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[ShadowLink84]

So... having high weight against a character that has an incredible amount of difficulty KOing is not an advantage?

What does having high KO power mean when you cant even land the KO move?
All you're doing is jumping around the issue, plus sonic has pretty good juggling game.
Plus 32% off a single combo is lovely

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

This why I ignore some ratios given on the Link Boards.

If the people claiming the ratios gave no information as to why the ratio was, "R.O.B. is 80:20 vs Link hur hur hur, Snake is a 75:25 hur hur hur"

Then I ignore them and take in the ratios of people who actually backed-up what they said. This is also why I like how you run it, people actually go over discussing it rather than ratio's first, info later.

I always put the ratios last.

I usually can't explain much to back things up, even though I know Character A is good/bad against Character B and why. It's hard to put things in words.

The R.O.B. and Link is obviously in ROB's favor since he outcamps Link w/ laser and gyro and beats him in close combat. Link has a few tools like Zair and bombs, but R.O.B. can take advantage of Link's poor recovery much more than over half the cast can.

I don't think it's too bad, but I'd say around...75:25.

 

[Magik0722]

I think why some of you are saying that they are different from your boards is because you are reading the wrong side of the chart, if youll notice its not perfectly mirror diagonally

 

[Roxas1988]

What does having high KO power mean when you cant even land the KO move?
All you're doing is jumping around the issue, plus sonic has pretty good juggling game.
Plus 32% off a single combo is lovely

My exact thoughts as well. Sonic can def rack up damage if you don't know the match-up. Plus, wat good is KO moves if you just wiff it and miss. Your stuck with a stale lag kill move. The only problem with the weight factor is that it is hard to ko against heavy people when your kill moves are stale.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I always put the ratios last.

I usually can't explain much to back things up, even though I know Character A is good/bad against Character B and why. It's hard to put things in words.

The R.O.B. and Link is obviously in ROB's favor since he outcamps Link w/ laser and gyro and beats him in close combat. Link has a few tools like Zair and bombs, but R.O.B. can take advantage of Link's poor recovery much more than over half the cast can.

I don't think it's too bad, but I'd say around...75:25.

Most Link's think it's around 35:65/30:70 area but it's a bad match-up regardless.

Even if some people have a hard time explaining some match-ups any input is acceptable over a ratio any day. A number isn't going to help when people need to know what to do fighting said character. I'd rather have someone who has a hard time putting a match-up in words than someone who puts a number.

I'd rather take it over a person who clearly has no clue what the hell they are talking about and is making up BS.

You method of ratio last input first is what I'd recommend and advocate people do.

 

[hough123]

I have a few comments on your paragraph about Lucario. Just so you know, I believe that you are correct about his C tier placement. Although I'd prefer him to be B tier, he is floushed out because of better characters.

Lucario is such a weird character, because of the aura effect. It's hard to place him.
True, Lucario is very wierd. Moving on.


Unfortunately, Lucario is a little on the slow side with ground moves, but his meta-game is a little underdeveloped.
Lucario isn't exactly slow, he's more average. Slightly above average if he were to travel via air (Which he will.) Yes, his metagame is eons behind everyone else's. This should keep pushing us back until we do something about it. This is the main reason that we are so low. If we were developed, we could be B tier easy. (Bottom to mid, but still.)

His dtilt is really fast, and though not completely safe, hard to punish. His ftilt might be completely safe, and unlike most other pokes, it cannot be power-shielded normally because it's two hits. Utilt is really fast as well. Coupled with the safe Usmash and Bair, Lucario can remain relatively safe. High jump and decent movement with a solid projectile and aerial move pool, Lucario is pretty good.
All true. (Except for a safe Usmash, loooooool.)

He doesn't have reliable kill set-ups, but Bair, Uair, Fsmash, and Aura Sphere are mostly safe, so he makes the K.O.s happen.
Sad, but entirely true.

Dair also is pretty clutch utility.
Not entirely true, we have used dair a lot less lately. It is still used a lot, but we use fair loads more nowadays.

If this character was always at his peak strength, he'd definitely be high tier. However, seeing as he's most powerful when he's about to die, and otherwise pretty underwhelming, he's only seeing C-Tier
Woah, back up. This is a misconception. Lucario's aura boost is a complicated thing that only the best players understand how to utilize fully. Lucario plays differently than everyone else because of it. Lucario racks up damage until he reaches high damages, at which it's easier to kill. This damage is about 100%. A good Lucario won't be dieing until 110%, because we fight to keep our sacred boost. Our DI is trained long and hard so that we can live to use our boost to it's fullest potential.

Also, we can still kill below 100%. It's just harder, but it's still doable.

Basically, if all players understood our boost like we did, Lucario would be higher. Lucario is misunderstood by most everyone, which is good for match-ups, but bad for people trying to describe him that don't main him.

I hope that that made sence, and that it helped you even slightly.

 

[Tien2500]

What does having high KO power mean when you cant even land the KO move?

Charizard can't land KO moves? Usmash isn't very hard to land on Sonic. Nor is dtilt. Both moves come out withing ten frames. (I think 8 for Dtilt somewhere between 5 and 7 for Usmash)They're both and have very good range. Then there is Rock Smash which is also not incredibly difficult (which is not to say its easy). When damage gets higher more options open up. Bair also works as a KO move although thats less likely. Charizard doesn't have any incredible problems hitting Sonic with his KO moves, no worse than most of the cast.

The one who can't land a KO move in this match is Sonic. Fsmash simply shouldn't hit. That leaves bair. When that's the only move you have to watch out for its not that hard. Other than that Sonic doesn't have any reliable KO options. Sonic has much more difficulty KOing.

All you're doing is jumping around the issue, plus sonic has pretty good juggling game.
Plus 32% off a single combo is lovely

Charizard is heavy but he's only really vulnerable from below. Dair is disjointed I think more than Uair but Uair is really fast (5 frames?) so that hurts Zard. Charizards fair/rock smash cover him in the front, bair covers the back. None of Sonic's air moves are really that amazing. He can juggle decently but not nearly well enough to shift this matchup in his favor.

Sonic also doesn't have amazing options against Charizard. Any of his options Charizard can deal with. Of course Sonic has good mix ups and all but really nothing that Charizard can't answer which makes this a match that largely comes down to player skill. But once you factor in that Charizard can kill very well and Sonic can't kill the matchup shifts into Zards favor.

 

[AfroTwist ShadowPie]

@everyone complaining about the chart: It's probably old as hell, I saw alot of things that are completely off too, but as I said I checked the character boards and comparing Link to Falcon match-up point wise was pretty much the same thing on the boards and on the chart

 

[LuLLo]

Hey Pierce, it's been a while now and Boozaah and Ike still aren't added, would be nice if you just finished your opinions

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The problem with Lucario's aura system is one of momentum. When things go well for Lucario and the momentum is in his favor, aura is awesome. He starts in a good state (equal at 0%), racks some damage, takes some hits, and kills easily enough if he gets to high damage himself. Assuming he maintains the lead, aura will always be working with him or have a point between where he is at and where the opponent is at where it helps him out. That makes a winning Lucario very scary.

However, what happens when Lucario is losing? Let's say I get up to 110% or so and kill Lucario first. Okay, I'm at 110%, and Lucario is down the stock. That drastically slashes his KO ability, and he'll probably take a fairly decent chunk of damage to kill me now. Then he'll be at mid-damage where his damage racking ability starts to suffer when I come back at 0%. He'll be in his "kill range" when I'm at mid damage, and if I keep playing evenly he'll lose his second stock before his extra knockback is doing anything for him but ruining follow-ups. This continues until the end, and in my experience the stock bonuses don't really help very much. It's not that Lucario can't make comebacks, but unless he manages to stall out the opponent and live to super high damage to get some crazy early kill (not easy at all), he's going to have to really work against his aura system to do it. I'm not sure how everything works out in the end since, like I said, aura is great when the momentum is on his side, but it definitely has very strong negatives for Lucario as well as positives.

 

[Kitamerby]

The problem with Lucario's aura system is one of momentum. When things go well for Lucario and the momentum is in his favor, aura is awesome. He starts in a good state (equal at 0%), racks some damage, takes some hits, and kills easily enough if he gets to high damage himself. Assuming he maintains the lead, aura will always be working with him or have a point between where he is at and where the opponent is at where it helps him out. That makes a winning Lucario very scary.

However, what happens when Lucario is losing? Let's say I get up to 110% or so and kill Lucario first. Okay, I'm at 110%, and Lucario is down the stock. That drastically slashes his KO ability, and he'll probably take a fairly decent chunk of damage to kill me now. Then he'll be at mid-damage where his damage racking ability starts to suffer when I come back at 0%. He'll be in his "kill range" when I'm at mid damage, and if I keep playing evenly he'll lose his second stock before his extra knockback is doing anything for him but ruining follow-ups. This continues until the end, and in my experience the stock bonuses don't really help very much. It's not that Lucario can't make comebacks, but unless he manages to stall out the opponent and live to super high damage to get some crazy early kill (not easy at all), he's going to have to really work against his aura system to do it. I'm not sure how everything works out in the end since, like I said, aura is great when the momentum is on his side, but it definitely has very strong negatives for Lucario as well as positives.

Actually, Luc can still use most of his most useful strings up until like 100% for both parties. Racking damage actually isn't that much of a problem for Lucario, as considering that once his strings wear off, his single-hit moves begin doing obscene amounts of damage anyways, and most of his moveset develops very good killing power, or at least the power to get them offstage to edgeguard. The prospect of dying at 110% for both parties via kill move is really only a considerable issue when fighting a superheavyweight like Snake, DK, or DDD. For most characters, though, that tiny aura boost from a stock behind is just enough to let him snatch the kill at around 50% or less, which is a long way before his strings start shortening out.

 

[Browny]

AA i truly can not believe you are applying the same theory which has existed since the very start of brawl, today.

every lucario player the world over knows how to deal with that problem, just the same way MK's learned how to stay safe, warios learned how to aircamp etc. Its really not that big a deal

 

[ShadowLink84]

Charizard can't land KO moves? Usmash isn't very hard to land on Sonic. Nor is dtilt. Both moves come out withing ten frames. (I think 8 for Dtilt somewhere between 5 and 7 for Usmash)They're both and have very good range. Then there is Rock Smash which is also not incredibly difficult (which is not to say its easy). When damage gets higher more options open up. Bair also works as a KO move although thats less likely. Charizard doesn't have any incredible problems hitting Sonic with his KO moves, no worse than most of the cast.

Hello I am Sonic. Watch me run circles around you.
Watch me spindash int he air and land on the ground with my shield up on frame 1
Watch me cancel my spindashes with jumps and the like.
Watch me move faster than you on the ground and in the air.

Great your moves are below reaction time, the issue now is actually landing it.
Looka t Pit's Fsmash, frame 6. Does not mean he has no issue killing.

Charizard hasa definite problem hitting Sonic, hell its part of the reason why Sonic does well against MK. He moves faster than you in terms of manueverability so you need to be able to pressure him constantly, something that Charizard cannot do with his predictable abilities.

The one who can't land a KO move in this match is Sonic. Fsmash simply shouldn't hit.That leaves bair. When that's the only move you have to watch out for its not that hard. Other than that Sonic doesn't have any reliable KO options. Sonic has much more difficulty KOing.

Except Sonic can maintain spacing and rack up damage to where it does not matter.
Hell most moves should not hit because they have NO setups.

So yes, alot of characters have problems KOing sonic, because his abilities make it so that unless you can guarantee a kill set up, it will be difficult.

No one runs into attacks foolishly.

Charizard is heavy but he's only really vulnerable from below. Dair is disjointed I think more than Uair but Uair is really fast (5 frames?) so that hurts Zard. Charizards fair/rock smash cover him in the front, bair covers the back. None of Sonic's air moves are really that amazing. He can juggle decently but not nearly well enough to shift this matchup in his favor.

Sonic's Uair is longer than G&W's key in terms of disjointed behavior. So yes, below CHarizard has a tough time, and Sonic has a very good method for trapping characters during their air dodge due to his jump canceling ability.

Aerial wise NO ONE should be going directly against the other, Charizard cannot simply rush Sonic beause he is outmanuevered, as a result, Sonic can deal with CHarizards higher prioritized moves with his movement and manueverability alone.

The ability to maintain his options allows sonic to deal with much of Charizards abilities. As a result, because Charizard is forced to deal with that manueverability, his options become limited because his quickest moves become too predictable to use.

Sonic also doesn't have amazing options against Charizard. Any of his options Charizard can deal with. Of course Sonic has good mix ups and all but really nothing that Charizard can't answer which makes this a match that largely comes down to player skill. But once you factor in that Charizard can kill very well and Sonic can't kill the matchup shifts into Zards favor.

Except that such a statement is FALSE. both characters have the ability to deal with the others effectively.
Sonic with his manueverability and speed and Charizard with his superior range.

Great Charizard hits harder and his kill moves are indeed faster, but he has issues landing them, just as MK has issues landing a kill move on Sonic, even though MK is a superior character in terms of offense.

That insane speed and manueverability is extremely useful in that it allows him to deal with that greater power that Charizard possesses, and the fact that he can remain uncommitted in his behavior only adds to making it difficult to KO him.

 

[Kinzer]

"No one runs into attacks foolishly."

No one who knows what they're doing anyway.

Brings me joy when somebody runs into a hypnosmash.

Yesh.

 

[Browny]

The ability to avoid KO moves is a trait often forgotten

no point arguing though, people seem to only listen to numbers these days as the only defining point in an argument

 

[Matador]

The ability to avoid KO moves is a trait often forgotten

no point arguing though, people seem to only listen to numbers these days as the only defining point in an argument

Sad truth. That's why theory is lol, and why that matchup chart is inaccurate.

 

[SnackAttack]

Sorry to not offer intellectual discussion, but when is the next list coming out?

 

[Javon89]

Sorry to not offer intellectual discussion, but when is the next list coming out?

Well either next month to January I think...

 

[Roxas1988]

ZSS for god tier just cuz of the sexy aerials that **** MK.

 

[J4pu]

This is priority, and where it's easiest to see with projectiles, it's true of all hitboxes in the game.

I thought aerials (not aerial special moves) lacked priority and were entirely based off of range.

 

[Justblaze647]

ZSS for god tier just cuz of the sexy aerials that **** MK.

Nair looks a lot cooler than it actually is

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I thought aerials (not aerial special moves) lacked priority and were entirely based off of range.

Yup


546789

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought aerials (not aerial special moves) lacked priority and were entirely based off of range.

No it is true for ALL moves in the game.
Ground vs aerial=hurtbox/hitbox ratio
ground/ground=percentage
special/anything=special based(usually)
aerial/aerial=hurtbox/hitbox ratio.

 

[dainbramage]

If ground attacks are based on percentage it's certainly not the ONLY thing it's based on.


Falco's jab can clash with a judge 9.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If ground attacks are based on percentage it's certainly not the ONLY thing it's based on.


Falco's jab can clash with a judge 9.

It doesn't clang, it is BROKEN by judge 9 because judge 9 does more than 10% difference.
Unless i am mistake on judge 9's damage output

 

[Kitamerby]

Falco's jab clashing with 9 Hammer.

If a disjoint touches a disjoint, it will clash, as far as I know. Note how Falco's hand doesn't actually touch the hammer, or if it does, it barely grazes it. (Hard to tell.)

 

[dainbramage]

It doesn't clang, it is BROKEN by judge 9 because judge 9 does more than 10% difference.
Unless i am mistake on judge 9's damage output

Psst: I was using that as an example to prove your theory wrong (and judge 9 does well over 12% damage).

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi cannot jump out of shield, and has a longer than average shield drop. While Yoshi cannot be shield stabbed, this weakens Yoshi's defense overall. Yoshi is heavy, but his recovery is punishable. Eggs are overcome by power-shielding. Yoshi relies his great grab game, and has reasonable approaches, but lacks a powerful defense. Lastly, Yoshi has a difficult time killing a cautious opponent. Yoshi would be a solid character, but having a handicap on his shield puts him in low-tiers.

Too bad that most of your analysis is incorrect about what Yoshi's real weakpoints are in this game. Yes, you're still correct that no OoS is bad, yet in a game that's completely defensive (and with his current moveset), it doesn't improve him enough to make much of a difference in his position in the tierlist.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Psst: I was using that as an example to prove your theory wrong (and judge 9 does well over 12% damage).

Psst, when you use an example, make sure it actually proves your theory.
Why? Your example is, well, WRONG

If a disjoint touches a disjoint, it will clash, as far as I know. Note how Falco's hand doesn't actually touch the hammer, or if it does, it barely grazes it. (Hard to tell.)

Dude, its BROKEN by level 9.
What happens is that when a move is brken, if disjointed, as long as the hurtbox was not touched, the person whose move was broken will simply reset like they would if they clanged.

Falco's jab was still broken, its simply because his hurtbox wasn't touch that he was not hurt.

Thisis even more pronounced with more largely disjointed moves.
Its easier to see with a move like Marth's Fsmash which its broken, but because he has such a high disjoint, he isn't harmed in the process.

It is the same thing that happened in melee.

 

[ru5514n]

Pierce7d, when are you finally going to update Ike and Bowser?

 

[Spelt]

(and judge 9 does well over 12% damage).

not that it really matters though because you'll most likely be dead if it hits.

 

[Sky`]

Mk
Snake
Falco
Diddy
Ics.

 

[Alphicans]

MK
Diddy
Falco
ICs
Snake or marth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

IC's are 7th best. <_<
*shot*

 

[AvariceX]

Since the cool kids are doing it:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
ICs

 

[Kitamerby]

Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy

MK really is in a league of his own still imo.

 

[M@v]

Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy

MK really is in a league of his own still imo.

Snake got this.

 

[DMG]

G&W's 9 hammer hit Falco's Jab and Went through. Dtilt hit his Jab and clanked/both people stopped moving.

IC's are not top 5. Get that outta here.

 

[etecoon]

IC's are not top 5. Get that outta here.

who IYO aside from MK/Snake/Diddy is clearly better than them? I think maybe falco and I'll take a guess and say that you think wario? even if they aren't I don't think it's a long shot at all, definitely a very good character that should fit in somewhere around that area IMO

 

[ShadowLink84]

G&W's 9 hammer hit Falco's Jab and Went through. Dtilt hit his Jab and clanked/both people stopped moving.

IC's are not top 5. Get that outta here.

I love you DMG.