Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Guys I know Warlock Punch is infinity frames but it works you'd be surprised
You just have to trust me on this guys
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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
You just have to trust me on this guys
Colonel this is no time to messing around.
Coney
Smash Master
exactly, he messed up. ness shouldn't be bthrowing until the opponent is ~120%. looking at the video, i think FOW was maybe going for an edgeguard opportunity, or just the positional advantage, but it still shouldn't happen.
the ones after that, the ones that didn't kill wolf, are just minor errors. he thought it would kill them and it simply didn't, good work on wolf's part.
also i'm working on something with DDD's fsmash now bear with me because it's awful if you look at the frame data but i'm serious guys it is guaranteed out of uthrow
ZMan
Smash Master
lucas isn't cheap lucas is just FAST!
the though of d3 fsmash out of uthrow makes my pants tighter.
the though of d3 fsmash out of uthrow makes my pants tighter.
and they can't DI out or airdodge the Fsmash?
Coney
Smash Master
no, it is impossible.
Vids or it didn't happen.
AvariceX
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2007
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- 2,116
- Location
- London, Ontario, Canada
- NNID
- AvariceX
- 3DS FC
- 1177-8001-5699
I think it's fair for me to summarize a lot of the last two pages with "Ness relies on bthrow for kills".
My response: my sig...
Number of KO's: 42 (+5 if you count silly opening and ending)
Number of KO's that ended with back-throw: 1
Number of KO's that utilised back-throw: 2
Those aren't very good numbers for bthrow. Now I know it's a highlight video and it's not the best indicator but to be honest I had a very limited supply of replays to create that video with and numerous replays were used for several KO highlights each... also all the clips that I used blue Ness in were recorded in a single day at a tourney (Sauga Outbreak)... so it's a fairly accurate representation of where I get my KO's from, other Nesses could be different of course.
Besides if Ness really needs to rely on his bthrow he has the fastest pivot grab in the game and is tied for 2nd (or 3rd? I forget) fastest dash-grab; he definitely has the tools to get the grab.
Like I said in my last post though; there are still things holding him back, most people just don't know or know how to explain what those things are (even though a lot of those same people sure know how to exploit those things in game).
My response: my sig...
Number of KO's: 42 (+5 if you count silly opening and ending)
Number of KO's that ended with back-throw: 1
Number of KO's that utilised back-throw: 2
Those aren't very good numbers for bthrow. Now I know it's a highlight video and it's not the best indicator but to be honest I had a very limited supply of replays to create that video with and numerous replays were used for several KO highlights each... also all the clips that I used blue Ness in were recorded in a single day at a tourney (Sauga Outbreak)... so it's a fairly accurate representation of where I get my KO's from, other Nesses could be different of course.
Besides if Ness really needs to rely on his bthrow he has the fastest pivot grab in the game and is tied for 2nd (or 3rd? I forget) fastest dash-grab; he definitely has the tools to get the grab.
Like I said in my last post though; there are still things holding him back, most people just don't know or know how to explain what those things are (even though a lot of those same people sure know how to exploit those things in game).
Coney
Smash Master
i honestly don't think anyone's saying that explicitly.
i think it's more that that's, like, ness' thing.
if we're talking about snake's kills in regards to lucas', you don't necessarily need to say how snake can kill with virtually every single move he has, just say utilt. nothing else is necessary.
lucas can kill, yeah, but we're speaking of high-level play here and practicality. and it can be hard out there for a lucas.
- Joined
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Not really.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
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- 1993-9028-0439
I have not abandoned the thread. I am only able to read on weekends, because school takes a lot of time, and as many of you know, I was in OH last weekend, so I missed that opportunity.
I'm on page 60/68, because I do other things besides read smashboards in my freetime these days, but tomorrow, before my crew meet, I'll try to make another post.
I'm on page 60/68, because I do other things besides read smashboards in my freetime these days, but tomorrow, before my crew meet, I'll try to make another post.
What could you possibly do that doesn't involve Smashboards? What else is there in life?
Kinzer
Mammy
Women, Power, Money... the works...
Is the topic about the Earthboys?
...Yeah, I hope people start to learn how to fight them.
Or rather get more patient.
Being patient rewards you better in the Lucas MU too, since a lot of his attacks are just... ah, I don't know how to describe it, but you should be good on avoiding some of the stuff he does. Of course Ness has the same philosophy, but it's harder to apply with him...
This is me, being an insomniac. When am I not going to wake up after I go to bed...?
Is the topic about the Earthboys?
...Yeah, I hope people start to learn how to fight them.
Or rather get more patient.
Being patient rewards you better in the Lucas MU too, since a lot of his attacks are just... ah, I don't know how to describe it, but you should be good on avoiding some of the stuff he does. Of course Ness has the same philosophy, but it's harder to apply with him...
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Good goal in life. Something legit.
All the wrong things to want in life. lol
Kinzer
Mammy
Is that so?
Well I wouldn't know. If I did follow that same philosophy, I'd be playing Meta Knight, and playing the boobies (Zero Suit Samus) as a secondary.
Well I wouldn't know. If I did follow that same philosophy, I'd be playing Meta Knight, and playing the boobies (Zero Suit Samus) as a secondary.
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
Lucas is just a tad too slow and doesn't have the utilities ness has to pull off a win. (spike, yoyo, bthrow). Although if you get lucky as a Lucas you can be devastating, but in all honesty, hitting someone with a fully charged usmash is as difficult as it gets.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
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- 16,415
explain much...
Name a reliable move that Lucas can use to kill in the air. Name a reliable kill move on the ground that doesn't require extreme start up. Name the amount of frames his tether takes before it grabs and after it misses. Name the amount of cool down frames on his f-smash. Name the amount of time Lucas is in his down smash and how many frames of start-up it has.
Seriously, Lucas doesn't have reliable kill power except for his d-air to d-tilt lock. But you can just DI out of his d-air. Seriously Lucas blows at killing a person that knows how to space.
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What does tethering have to do with anything?
lucas doesn't even need to go off stage to gimp someone.
and also what do cool down frames on his fsmash have to do with anything?
i'm pretty sure it's the startup that matters, which isn't much.
you can also di out of wolf's fsmash.
but yeah, good luck with that.
lucas doesn't even need to go off stage to gimp someone.
and also what do cool down frames on his fsmash have to do with anything?
i'm pretty sure it's the startup that matters, which isn't much.
you can also di out of wolf's fsmash.
but yeah, good luck with that.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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He doesn't even have a good grab to punish moves
Quote fixed / airdodge
True, but it's still unsafe if a person knows how to space correctly and therefore can be punished on spacing.
You can also DI out of Pikachu's D-smash. Every move has different amounts of how you can DI. Lucas D-air allows you to DI up to prevent the meteor smash.
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cool down still doesn't matter whether or not you kill/hit them with it, so it's sort of irrelevant for this discussion.
if you decide to not use a smash at an opportune time because you might get punished then so be it. :/
and if you only hit with the last 2 hits of lucas' dair the chance of it sourspotting decreases.
and i still don't see why tethering was brought up at all.
if you decide to not use a smash at an opportune time because you might get punished then so be it. :/
and if you only hit with the last 2 hits of lucas' dair the chance of it sourspotting decreases.
and i still don't see why tethering was brought up at all.
C.box
Smash Journeyman
wolf's fsmash isn't even a kill move and he can hit with the "tip" of the attack so you can't sdi out of it. <_<
Also sdi'ing to avoud the meteor smash = no lock IS BAD. Lucas IS bad at killing.
Also sdi'ing to avoud the meteor smash = no lock IS BAD. Lucas IS bad at killing.
Nitrix
Smash Ace
Regardless of how you feel about his D-Air Lock, Lucas does still have a F-Smash that is quite strong and fast.
In addition, he has 2 spikes and his d-smash and u-smash that can punish mistakes and score lucky kills like nobody's business
He's not bad at killing. His smashes are kinda slow, but one mistake = GG.
Plus at higher % he has many moves that can KO in about 120% like Fair, Uair, ftilt.
Its kinda like G&W, if you play smart he has trouble hitting you with his smashes.
Conti
Smash Ace
long as diddy goes where he belongs at #3 i wont care how this tier list goes 
I was talking about Fsmash.
I was just estimating, both kill sometime around that on the far right/left of a stage.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
SDI still works, instead of up you click down and you'll hit the ground and he'll just whiff the second hit.
It isn't like Sheik's Fsmash which SDI cannot save you from.
Moozle
Smash Champion
whenever i fight wolf his fsmash is much more of a problem in terms of his spacing. He can sh lasers and fsmash when i get close and then do what he wants to my hot princess bod. The good news is that it's easy shield, and di out of. His dsmash is really what gets me.
Edit: By the way, i have a question. I may be totally wrong in believing this, but isn't a tier list supposed to rank how good the character is, not the matchups? Because I just read the whole OP and it was mostly just comparing MUs. I always think of the bowser example. People are shocked when they see that he's high in the tier list because "their character can beat the crap out of him," but he's that high because he has good potential. He's a good character but has some really bad matchups.
I really just want to know if i'm wrong in thinking that a tier list ranks potential not MUs.
Edit: By the way, i have a question. I may be totally wrong in believing this, but isn't a tier list supposed to rank how good the character is, not the matchups? Because I just read the whole OP and it was mostly just comparing MUs. I always think of the bowser example. People are shocked when they see that he's high in the tier list because "their character can beat the crap out of him," but he's that high because he has good potential. He's a good character but has some really bad matchups.
I really just want to know if i'm wrong in thinking that a tier list ranks potential not MUs.
gm jack
Smash Lord
I think it is supposed to be a representation of potential in the current metagame. If a certain character does well vs the top characters, they should rank higher than someone who destroys the low tiers but gets beaten heavily by the better, more popular character.
What are you talking about? If he tips the Fsmash, SDI isn't going to do ****. You already got hit.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
you're being dumb.
Sheik's Fsmash is a move that depends on where she hits you with her first hit.
So you can't SDI back to avoid the second hit, nor up because you don't pop up high enough.
wolf's Fsmash doesn't have such a sweetspot.
The angle at which he hits you cause you to actually pop up, not to the side where the second hit will connect. So when you get hit by the tipper, you DI down and hit the ground, causing the second hit to miss you.
The move completely relies on the first hit setting up for the second hit and unlike Snake's Ftilt or Sheik's Fsmash, can be broken through proper DI.
AfroTwist ShadowPie
Smash Journeyman
Link mains have been discussing wether he should be above CF or not lately so, I went to their boards and compared matchup points... CF should not be above Link lol
No bias.
No bias.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
FaWa
Smash Apprentice
I second that. Link has a lot more tricks up his sleeve then Falcon.
Javon89
Smash Ace
For Diddy and MK for #1, I think the reason why MK is better than Diddy is because he's a more solid character, and Diddy's play style relies heavily on nanners and can be countered by easily shielding, grabbing them and throwing them, and MK has better kill moves and has better MUs.
Oh yeah, third to Link>Falcon.
Oh yeah, third to Link>Falcon.
But, if the point of the small hits are to send you into the power hit.
If he spaces it so that only the power hit connects, what are you SDI'ing?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You are completely deviating from the subject at hand, which is in regards to what you do when the first hit is landed.
Stop arguing for the sake of it.