Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[mountain_tiger]

He's referring to the 'freeze' effect of hitlag (similar to Zelda's lightning kicks) specific to a few electrical-based moves which gives an enormous amount of time for DI+SDI input, making their killpower siginificantly decreased if your opponent doesn't have the slowest DI input on the planet.

Normally I'm too busy thinking 'FUUUUU-' to remember to DI lol!

Though really, if you get hit by Zelda's lightning kick or Falcon's Knee, at around 70-80%+, you're usually screwed anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Having no disadvantage matchups doesn't mean anything.
Blazblue tier list

1. Rachel
2. V-13

V-13 not only beats Rachel, but has no bad matchups.
However, Rachel has the tools to get around her bad matchup in the right hands. Matchups are not set in stone, especially in a game where a stage dramatically changes the matchup.

*head explodes*

What?
Did you just say "an inferior character can still be higher in the tierlist when they get around the matchup".

That makes NO sense.

you are forgetting the fact that while V13 has no bad matchups, Rachelle herself hits the other characters harder. The advantaged matchups she has are greater in degree than V13's.

The fact you leave this tidbit out means your logic makes no sense.
There is absolutely NO reason that a character who is completely inferior in terms of MU's should EVER be higher than a character with clearly super MU's.

Even metagame oriented having no disadvantages across the board is extremely powerful in terms of metagame behavior.


This is a simialr situation with Yun and Chun Li in SF3.
Yun is 6-4 across the board (even with I think ken and another character perhaps)
Chun li suffers disadvantages but hard counters part of the cast, something Yun does not do.

If however Chun Li was completely inferior by having 6-4 across the board and having 2 disadvantaged matchups, she would be inferior to Yun and incapable fo being claimed as number 1.
Which is what your statement makes Rachelle sound like, which would be wrong.

Cause that ***** is nasty.

 

[smashkng]

He's referring to the 'freeze' effect of hitlag (similar to Zelda's lightning kicks) specific to a few electrical-based moves which gives an enormous amount of time for DI+SDI input, making their killpower siginificantly decreased if your opponent doesn't have the slowest DI input on the planet.

That's what I mean, but it still kills early even with DI. It's not a major nerf. I already said real serious nerfs that makes the knee terrible.

 

[Nanaki]

Um, electricity isn't the reason, all attacks have an unusually high amount of hitlag.

if you use Sonci's Fair in Brawl+ the hits come in ridiculously fast while when performed in regular brawl, you can count the hits.

The hitlag is specifically tailored for the knee and lightning kick to have a "you just got kicked in the face" effect.

Its the same when you tipper Marth's killing moves or land a Giant punch or Charge beam.
not specifically due to an electrical effect.

I was under the impression that the electrical effects had a significant impact in creating additional hitlag - isn't this the main reason that timers aren't allowed in the 'Item Standard Play' ruleset? Electrical effects messing with the way the game interprets hitlag?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGwdYj1OhNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfUpctFjPrA&feature=related

I don't think that works with a tipper or a Giant Punch. And Charge Beam is an electrical effect.

I could be wrong - it's happened before.

That's what I mean, but it still kills early even with DI. It's not a major nerf. I already said real serious nerfs that makes the knee terrible.

It's a pretty huge nerf. Heavies take forever to die from that move unless it connects a ways offstage.

 

[smashkng]

I was under the impression that the electrical effects had a significant impact in creating additional hitlag - isn't this the main reason that timers aren't allowed in the 'Item Standard Play' ruleset? Electrical effects messing with the way the game interprets hitlag?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGwdYj1OhNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfUpctFjPrA&feature=related

I don't think that works with a tipper or a Giant Punch. And Charge Beam is an electrical effect.

I could be wrong - it's happened before.



It's a pretty huge nerf. Heavies take forever to die from that move unless it connects a ways offstage.

The worst nerf is as I said being overly hard to hit with. But at 100% it almost always kills with DI heavies close to the KO line.

But it's the first reason the largest nerf that Sakurai made. He got too far with the nerfs.

 

[Mew2King]

Falco > Snake

 

[Nitros14]

I guess Bowser just isn't a character. Poor fellow.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco > Snake

Thus m2k has spoken, with his bias opinion because he can't camp falco

 

[Nanaki]

Falco > Snake

We need to see your top 10 sometime.

 

[hotgarbage]

We need to see your top 10 sometime.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8496889&postcount=163

 

[Nanaki]

I see. Thanks.

...I don't even know what to say about it.

 

[Nefarious B]

I duno I'd say that looks more like his personal hard matchups list more than anything.

 

[Javon89]

For the next tier list do you think Mario and Yoshi would be good candidates for D-tier?
What do you guys think?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No.

No improvement from either one. Mario could get there if anyone bothered to actually use his cape ATs. Yoshi currently has nothing to put him up there, not even under/never used ATs.

 

[LoganW]

I think if all yoshi's could consistently dr then he'd be at least d-tier

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think if all yoshi's could consistently dr then he'd be at least d-tier

And if San/Kirk/Mr.Doom/Inui/Bored/who ever could place in more tournaments with Ike, he would be top of d-tier.

And if another PT besides Reflex could actually place at any level of constancy, he would desire his D tier spot.

Doesn't matter for much until it happens.

 

[LoganW]

No.

No improvement from either one. Mario could get there if anyone bothered to actually use his cape ATs. Yoshi currently has nothing to put him up there, not even under/never used ATs.

I don't think it will ever happen but I think it could definitely push him to at least d-tier

 

[CRASHiC]

I think if all yoshi's could consistently dr then he'd be at least d-tier

What does consistency have to do with anything?
Oh, If Jigglypuff's could rest consistently in Melee they'd be top tier, and If Fox's could Waveshine consistently, they'd be top tier.
That logic is pretty flawed, because the amount of tech skill doesn't matter. Samus has a TON of ATs that take A TON of skill, yet she is still trash tier. Difficulty does not factor into the tier list. Top play does. When Bwett, Pride, and others prove to the SBR that Yoshi is D tier, then he shall be, but until then, an AT is just an AT, no matter how many people can do it consistently or not.

 

[LoganW]

uh fox is top tier and jiggs is about to be.
Read the post above yours. He said that not even yoshi's unused at's could make him rise but if yoshi's could dr it would make him rise. I dont think it will ever happen
what are sanus's AT's? are you talking about melee or brawl for those?

 

[CRASHiC]

Both. Both have high skill levels in both their games, but still can't truly compete.

 

[LoganW]

Both. Both have high skill levels in both their games, but still can't truly compete.

samus is top of mid and is viable, as shown by Hugs and Wes
can you tell me the brawl At's i don't know them

 

[Nidtendofreak]

By ATs I meant useful ATs, like Mario's cape glitch that forces an opponent grabbing the ledge into a vulnerable state. Not silly ATs with highly situational uses like Marth and Ike's Counterdiving.

My bad, tired from mid-term/drinking energy drink before mid-term. lol.

 

[LoganW]

By ATs I meant useful ATs, like Mario's cape glitch that forces an opponent grabbing the ledge into a vulnerable state. Not silly ATs with highly situational uses like Marth and Ike's Counterdiving.

My bad, tired from mid-term/drinking energy drink before mid-term. lol.

haha no problemo. Yeah well yoshi kinda just sucks then lol

 

[CRASHiC]

samus is top of mid and is viable, as shown by Hugs and Wes
can you tell me the brawl At's i don't know them

a few select players winning does not equal viable. Taj winning with MewTwo is like FOW winning with Ness. Its amazing and great for the player, but the charecter is still not viable.
And I don't know Samus's ATs. Sorry. I'm going off another Brawl player comparing her to another character in another game with the same thing.

top 7 characters - fox falco sheik marth peach falcon puff

everyone knows the entire web of top 7 chars' matchups. and they are pretty much the only viable characters to win tournaments usually

below them... ic's samus doc ganon. ehhh they're all iffy. they can win matchups but usually not tournament

get at chudat's ic's

 

[Javon89]

And for Mario's cape glitch, it has to have really strict timing so that's why we Mario's don't use it that much.

 

[LoganW]

a few select players winning does not equal viable. Taj winning with MewTwo is like FOW winning with Ness. Its amazing and great for the player, but the charecter is still not viable.
And I don't know Samus's ATs. Sorry. I'm going off another Brawl player comparing her to another character in another game with the same thing.

your other quote shows that Samus is potentially viable to win tourneys. Samus is a good character in melee
oh I responed to the argument in the pm's

 

[CRASHiC]

Saying he won't win tournaments means he isn't viable.

 

[LoganW]

"usually won't win tournaments" means they can still win lol
samus is a girl btw

 

[CRASHiC]

top 7 characters - fox falco sheik marth peach falcon puff

everyone knows the entire web of top 7 chars' matchups. and they are pretty much the only viable characters

Except, no, it doesn't.

 

[LoganW]

"pretty much"
why does that guy's quote mater anyway?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And for Mario's cape glitch, it has to have really strict timing so that's why we Mario's don't use it that much.

Sheik's DACUS has really strict timing. They use it.

No johns. Either learn it, or stop whining about his low placing.

 

[omegazeroINFI]

........the f tiers are my mains.
makes me sad, but falco makes me happy. anywaythese tiers arent alwys the best way to judge a character. prejudice you know?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You guys do know that the worth of the characters is independent of the users, right? If suddenly a ton of huge tournaments were won by Captain Falcon, he wouldn't get a bit better... though it might cause us to consider if we had incorrectly evaluated him in the past. Acting like individual players actually improve characters is really just absurd; it makes it easier to show people what the character can do, but it doesn't do a thing for the actual worth of the character.

 

[Matador]

Sheik's DACUS has really strict timing. They use it.

No johns. Either learn it, or stop whining about his low placing.

The AT that you're referring to only works on a small handful of characters and is different from Sheik's DACUS in that the timing depends only on you.

Cape Teleporting (the ledge glitch) depends on your timing your cape to him them as they autograb the ledge with their upB. Though I could be wrong, the most I could see this AT doing is changing a few matchup ratios by about 5...not much more. It's an edgeguarding tool...and Mario doesn't need much help in that department.

You guys do know that the worth of the characters is independent of the users, right? If suddenly a ton of huge tournaments were won by Captain Falcon, he wouldn't get a bit better... though it might cause us to consider if we had incorrectly evaluated him in the past. Acting like individual players actually improve characters is really just absurd; it makes it easier to show people what the character can do, but it doesn't do a thing for the actual worth of the character.

I agree...which is why it's hard to make an accurate tier list when you get out of A-tier. What decides who's better between Peach/DK/Luigi? How do you precisely measure their attributes and without bias? Matchup ratios are also pretty inaccurate with the exception of a few characters.

The tourney rankings don't help either; they more or less dictate who moves and who doesn't on the tier list even though some characters only have like...one real representative.

 

[Browny]

You guys do know that the worth of the characters is independent of the users, right? If suddenly a ton of huge tournaments were won by Captain Falcon, he wouldn't get a bit better... though it might cause us to consider if we had incorrectly evaluated him in the past. Acting like individual players actually improve characters is really just absurd; it makes it easier to show people what the character can do, but it doesn't do a thing for the actual worth of the character.

ok i dont know much about smash pre-brawl so I'm probably wrong

but wasnt marth considered average until Ken not only showed what he can do, but improved the worth of the character all the way to the top of top tier? :/

 

[DMG]

The character was already inherently that good, it just took some time for someone to come along and show his potential.

EARLY Melee tier lists (before Wavedashing/just after it was discovered) were crazy looking. Characters like Link were really high even though today we can obviously see that Link in Melee is far from top tier.

Character worth/how good a character can be is pretty much set in stone once the game is put out. Every character has a "ceiling", regardless of who plays them or how many people play as them or the quality of the players behind that character. It's up to the players to get to that ceiling.

 

[Browny]

well thats kind of proving what I'm saying...

or are you implying that once the game came out, people already knew marth was top tier, but no one could use his tools well enough at that time to prove it? lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Maybe that's true. I don't know; you'd have to be pretty bad at fighting games to look at Melee and not see pretty quickly that Marth is high tier at least. Of course, I hear the early Melee community was, in fact, really quite terrible at fighting games and really struggling to figure out what to do.

The thing is that Marth in Melee was always able to do the things Ken did. It's just the case that no one happened to do them before Ken (that we know of at least; someone could have been doing them in a smaller group that never made contact with the mainstream smash scene). Marth's "metagame" improves, but Marth himself is the same as always. It's not like Marth suddenly got a 3 frame faster recovery on fair after Ken started playing him or anything; that fair was the same as always... as with all of Marth's moves. People can get better with Marth as a group, but Marth himself doesn't change. If we're interested in Marth himself, that's important to note.

A true tier list would be one in which we had knowledge of a perfectly developed metagame for the entire cast and were able to rank them in terms of worth on that scale. Obviously such metagames would still factor in the flaw of human limitation (hence ZSS and PT are not going to be god tier, Marth, Bowser, Wolf, and Mario high tier, and everyone else useless tier), but the limits of knowledge and the biases of popularity should be ignored. Our question is what is the potential, from human players, of the assorted cast. It's a pretty hard question, but we defeat ourselves from the beginning if we're thinking in terms of what people are doing instead of what the limits of the characters are. The experiences of the community do offer us many insights, but we have to recognize the limits of that information, instead of putting the cart before the horse and suggesting that where data lacks we will simply assume weakness until someone "improves" the character.

Matador is pretty much hitting the big point there. The lower on a tier list you go, the more inaccurate you get. I can look at melee's tier list, a list from a far more mature game than brawl, and just notice how my experiences tend to diverge. For the top half of the list, I'm in mostly agreement. I have minor points I don't agree on (like, IMO, Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon and Dr. Mario > Samus), but that's just 1-2 places and such. Among the top 3 tiers, I would not want any moves of real substance. However, then I look at the bottom two tiers, and I have more serious issues. For instance, I think Ness is needing to move up about a full tier's worth. Obviously my melee experiences are already far more limited than m brawl ones anyway, but how would you even argue for or against such a suggestion? A full tier up from where Ness is on that list is still not viable; it's not like there's very much meaningful tournament data for any characters down that low that goes much beyond "horrible matchups with Sheik". With Brawl, we have 7 years less time with the game, only a year and a half of total time really. There's still very wide disagreement over the worth of a lot of characters, and tournament data will simply never give us enough to work with. We have to rely on intuition and analysis to reach conclusions on a lot of this; yes that's basically "theorycraft". The data is a very nice sanity check (if we start concluding Samus is better than Snake, tournament data does a good job of telling us we're doing something wrong). However, it's not an end-all.

I think our biggest questions are ones of viability moreso than exact balance though. I'll just post this list as food for thought since Pierce isn't coming back to this topic. The ordering within the "tiers" is roster order (Mario, Luigi... Snake, Sonic), but they really aren't tiers at all.

Viable: Able to be used alone (no secondaries) in a mature metagame without being a legitimate handicap to the user.

Diddy Kong
Wario
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Falco
Pikachu
Lucario
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake

Counterpick Viable: Overall in a sense as "good" as the viable characters, but specific situations (stages, matchups) are just too bad for these characters to the point that they need secondaries. With secondaries, these characters are every bit as good as the characters in the first group and should not be considered "below". What needs avoided is noted next to the characters.

Donkey Kong [King Dedede]
Ice Climbers [stages]
Fox [Pikachu, Zelda & Sheik]
Wolf [several matchups, King Dedede among them]
Ness [Marth]

Semi-Viable: These characters are not so bad that they cannot win in a mature metagame, but they are bad enough that they are an encumbrance to the user. They may or may not depend on strategies that involve secondaries. The degree of encumbrance may vary.

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Link
Zelda & Sheik
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Jigglypuff
Ike
Lucas
Sonic

Not Viable: These characters are sufficiently bad that they cannot be expected to be successful in a mature metagame.

Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Obviously within each group there are differences in quality, and remember the groups aren't strict quality orderings anyway (Ice Climbers are better than Pit via most analysis methods). However, this is how I have grown to view the game; there are these sort of thresholds of quality after which things really change in terms of viability, and I think we better serve the actual useful purpose of a tier list (informing people who don't know the game what's going on with the balance) better by focusing on that.

 

[DMG]

What I am saying is that characters do not inherently "get better" from being used by smart people, Smart people hopefully will "show" the accurate potential level of the character. Even if M2K played as Snake/Dedede/Wario/etc, he cannot inherently improve the character by making him better, like improving his frame data/hitboxes, making him kill sooner, having him take less damage, etc. He cannot modify or improve the character, but what he CAN do is maybe give us better insight as to how good the character really is.

Let's just say that Marth absolutely has a "potential" ceiling of 10 (when I say absolutely I mean there is no doubt that his potential level is 10. This will never change ever). Back in the early Melee days, let's assume people THOUGHT that his "potential" ceiling was... 4 or so. Now, here comes along Ken. Ken starts playing Marth and people start going "Oh hey we were wrong, Marth really has a potential ceiling of 10, not 4".

Did Ken improve Marth? No. He may have made Marth seem better than he was before, but did he improve the character itself? Did he give Marth more range/better attacks/better recovery? No, he just accurately showed the potential of the character, in this case proving that his potential was greater than previously thought.

Edit: Nice post AA, you got your text in just before me lol

 

[Nefarious B]

DMG useless discussion is useless. No one can change the game sans hax, okay we know, moving on (<3)

AA I felt that like that was a great post just in your evaluation of how people should rate characters, very well thought out.